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Author Topic: The place of reason, the body, senses, self, ect.  (Read 843 times) Average Rating: 0
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wolf
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« on: July 05, 2011, 04:26:00 PM »

I just wanted to ask what the "place" of these things were in Orthodoxy. Where I have read/heard about these things they seem to be subordinated, or treated as if they are unreliable. For example, it is seen as dangerous to use the imagination, senses or mind in spirituality.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/ourlife/interview_with_abbot_jonah_on_the_jesus_prayer_part_1

For example, in the podcast above, the Monk makes some comments that sounded to me to be very odd, such as that the "ego" or self is delusional (although I may be misrepresenting his points because I can't remember exactly).

Reason is not used in order to come to theological conclusions, and in Hesychasm the aim is to draw into oneself and "ignore sensory imput" - or so Orthodoxwiki tells me. Is it not possible to "experience" (for lack of a better word) God with body and senses?

I have been reading the sayings of the Desert Fathers and many of them (not to mention the NT writers) seem to have extreme disregard for the body. Why is this, if they body is sacred, a temple to the Holy Spirit?

I am also a bit confused about what exactly the nous is, and the difference between soul and spirit, so if someone can explain I would be very grateful. Is the nous what "experiences" the divine? If God is completely incomprehensible, then how can he be seen, heard ect. by us humans?
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 09:26:05 PM »

Wolf,

I've read Orthodox Psychotherapy by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos and he touches on all your questions in details.  There's too much information in the book to summarize it here.  At least for me.  But, he explained it in a way that the thoughts of the holy fathers make more sense.  He quotes them alot.  Definitely helpful.

Also a must read is St. Theophan the Recluse, The Path to Salvation.  Much more intense.  Here's a portion that explains dilusion and the flesh.

In order to understand why it does not happen this way, let us observe the inner make-up of the convert. Sin takes possession of a person and entices his attention, all his longing and all his strength. Acting under the influence of sin, the person permeates himself with it, and all parts of his existence, all his powers become accustomed to acting according to its suggestion. This alien activity that attaches itself to us, because of its extended stay, is so grafted onto us that it becomes as if in-born, taking on an appearance of something natural, and therefore unalterable and necessary. Thus become intertwined, for example, arrogance with the mind, greed with desires, lust with the heart, and with all our endeavors: selfishness and a certain dislike for others. In this manner, in the consciousness and will, in the powers of the soul — the mind, will and feelings, in all bodily functions, in all outward deeds, behavior, bearing, rules and customs — man becomes permeated with sin, that is, selfishness, passionateness, self-pleasing. St. Macarius expresses it thus: that sin, which entered into us at the Fall, possesses as if the entire image of man, which is why it is called the fleshly man, the emotional, the outer man, and why sin has robed with its own parts of our nature: mind with mind, will with will and so on. And, having overwhelmed the natural functioning of our own powers, it has counterfeited for them its own unnatural functioning, meanwhile fixing us in the belief that it is natural. In the midst of this obscurity, under the yoke of sin, everyone who is unconverted, unrepentant, and has not resolved to serve God in spirit and in truth abides in the satanic realm.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/salvation_theofan.htm#_Toc13899814
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The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 08:50:25 AM »

Thank you Joasia, a very interesting quote. I will have to look out for both books.

I can certainly understand that our will, mind, body ect. have been broken by the fall and are in need of serious attention to bring them back to what the first parents experienced in paradise. However, I also get the feeling that many of these things (that seem to make us so human), will, self, mind ect. will eventually be discarded or absorbed into the uncreated energies in theosis, not just cleaned from corruption. It seems that all that will be left is the will and love of God in us. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but why is this, if these things were present in Adam before the fall, and why did God give all of this to us in the first place? Surely we will all be present as individuals, with bodies, in the afterlife?
Why draw away from the intellect, reason, and body if they were given by God?
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2011, 08:59:14 PM »

From what the holy fathers explained, we don't lose these aspects, intellect, reason and body.  We just get tuned in again with God - theosis.  Right now we are living by our own flawed assessments of our lives; being "human".  But, living in theosis means living in our true nature without the flaws.  I think the saints are the best example of showing us how to live in harmony with God.  Their wills wanted to unite with His Will. I read all this from the holy fathers, but of course, I can't find the specific quotes when I need them.  Perhaps someone else can do a better job. 

I know this is a simple response.  I understand it in my heart, but I can't express it well.  Just keep reading the holy fathers.
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The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 11:04:21 PM »

The Fathers' apparent enmity toward the body is perhaps best illustrated in this quote from The Ladder of Divine Ascent:

"How can I hate him whom by nature I habitually love? How can I get free of him with whom I am bound for ever? How can I escape what will share my resurrection? How am I to make immortal what has received a mortal nature?... What is this mystery in me? What is the meaning of this blending of body and soul? How am I constituted a friend and foe to myself?" (15: 87-89)

The body is of course an inseparable part of man and is intended for good; the Fall and our subjugation to fleshly passions distorted and scrambled our human functions and made us slaves to the body. In this, the body is our enemy.
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 09:00:59 AM »

From what the holy fathers explained, we don't lose these aspects, intellect, reason and body.  We just get tuned in again with God - theosis.  Right now we are living by our own flawed assessments of our lives; being "human".  But, living in theosis means living in our true nature without the flaws.  I think the saints are the best example of showing us how to live in harmony with God.  Their wills wanted to unite with His Will. I read all this from the holy fathers, but of course, I can't find the specific quotes when I need them.  Perhaps someone else can do a better job. 

I know this is a simple response.  I understand it in my heart, but I can't express it well.  Just keep reading the holy fathers.

That makes a lot if sense, if it is true that  we do not lose these aspects in theosis. Christ had two wills, did he not? - so we will be like him, our will perfectly united with the will of God. The aim being to stop clinging to and sinning by these aspects of ourselves and instead using them to fulfill the will of God, thier true purpose.


The Fathers' apparent enmity toward the body is perhaps best illustrated in this quote from The Ladder of Divine Ascent:

"How can I hate him whom by nature I habitually love? How can I get free of him with whom I am bound for ever? How can I escape what will share my resurrection? How am I to make immortal what has received a mortal nature?... What is this mystery in me? What is the meaning of this blending of body and soul? How am I constituted a friend and foe to myself?" (15: 87-89)

The body is of course an inseparable part of man and is intended for good; the Fall and our subjugation to fleshly passions distorted and scrambled our human functions and made us slaves to the body. In this, the body is our enemy.

So it is more that our fallen bodies are the enemy. I can see how fasting and mortification works from this point of view, but I still don't the purpose of drawing into our body and ignoring the senses. Surely the aim should be to transform emotions, senses, passions ect rather than ignoring them?


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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 08:28:26 PM »

Wolf,

I hope this quote helps put it into perspective.  We shouldn't value sensible things more than the Creator of them.  The ascetics lived a life of rejecting their pleasure of the body so that their intellect could rise to commune with God the way we should be. 

The first man could indeed, without hindrance, apprehend and enjoy sensory things by means of the senses and intelligible things with the intellect.  But he should have given his attention to the higher rather than to the lower, for he was as able to commune with intelligible things through the intellect, as he was with sensory things though the senses. I do not say that Adam ought not to have used the senses, for it was not for nothing that he was invested with a body.  But he should not have indulged in sensory things.  When perceiving the beauty of creatures, he should have referred it to its sources and as a consequence have found his enjoyment and his wonder and his wonder fulfilled in that, thus giving himself a twofold reason for marvelling at the Creator.  He should not have attached himself, as he did, to sensory things and have lost himself in wonder at them, neglecting the Creator of intelligible beauty.  Thus Adam used the senses wrongly and was spellbound by sensory beauty; and because the fruit appeared to him to be beautiful and good to eat (Gen. 3:6), he tasted it and forsook the enjoyment of intelligible things.  So it was that the just Judge judged him unworthy of what he had rejected – the contemplation of God and of created beings – and, making darkness His secret place (Sam. 22:12; Ps. 18:11), deprived him of Himself and of immaterial realities.   (Philokalia; Vol. 2, pg. 44 – St. Theodoros the Great Ascetic)
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 06:03:34 AM »

Joasia: Thanks, I think that I do understand now. In the future life we will be able to appreciate sensory things as they are meant to be, but for now we need to deprive ourselves in order to be able to lift ourselves to contemplation of God.
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 10:32:55 AM »

Joasia: Thanks, I think that I do understand now. In the future life we will be able to appreciate sensory things as they are meant to be, but for now we need to deprive ourselves in order to be able to lift ourselves to contemplation of God.

Geez.  You hit the nail right on the head.  That's a really good way of putting it.  Thanks
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The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 01:13:32 PM »

Wolf,

I was just reading this now and it brings up the same issue.  It’s a constant theme for all saints.  It’s the biggest one about our state. 

I’m reading another part of the Philokalia, vol 2.  It’s St. Maximos the Confessor on The Lord’s Prayer.  There are 7 mysteries in this prayer.  For the 5th mystery, he wrote:  “He restores human nature to itself…our will is no longer opposed to the principle of nature, but we adhere to it without deviating in either will or nature.”  “He abolished the enmity which led nature to wage an implacable war against itself”.  “and in those who are willing He frees the whole of human nature from the oppressive rule of the law which dominates it, in so far as they imitate His self-chosen death by mortifying the earthly aspects of themselves (Col. 3:5)

All this to say that the reason we should crucify the flesh is because what we desire for it is not the true feelings of our nature.  We are following corrupted feelings which drag our intellect downwards.  This is the dilusion the saints talk about.  Everyone can attain dispassion and re-connect with their true nature, by disregarding all things not natural in thought and feelings.  It’s a lifetime process. 
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 09:16:09 AM »

I just came across another passage from St. Maximos.  (Philokalia, vol. 2; pg. 214).  I just thought I'd share it here under this subject. 

#21.  Let us illumine our intelligent with intellections of the divine world and make our body refulgent with the quality of the spiritual principles we have perceived, so that through the rejection of the passions it becomes a workshop of virtue, controlled by the intelligence.  If the natural passions of the body are governed by the intelligence there is no reason to censure them.  But when their activity is not controlled by the intelligence, they do deserve censure.  This is why it is said that such passions must be rejected, for although their activity is natural, they may often be used, when not governed by the intelligence, in a way that is contrary to nature.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 11:13:31 AM »

The Fathers' apparent enmity toward the body is perhaps best illustrated in this quote from The Ladder of Divine Ascent:

"How can I hate him whom by nature I habitually love? How can I get free of him with whom I am bound for ever? How can I escape what will share my resurrection? How am I to make immortal what has received a mortal nature?... What is this mystery in me? What is the meaning of this blending of body and soul? How am I constituted a friend and foe to myself?" (15: 87-89)

The body is of course an inseparable part of man and is intended for good; the Fall and our subjugation to fleshly passions distorted and scrambled our human functions and made us slaves to the body. In this, the body is our enemy.
IIRC one of the Desert Fathers says "I mortify my flesh that I may regain my body."
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 11:26:12 AM »

While the various Fathers use different terminologies to describe the human person, the key for us is to read the Creation Story of Genesis: God formed Adam's body from earth, breathed in the spirit, and man became a living soul.  We are tripartite.

The Fathers were anchored in the notion that the body is an essential part of man, and so it is not naturally evil.  It is part of and damaged by the brokenness of ther person as the result of the fall.  So, the body must be healed and brought into line with the soul and spirit.  The spirit is blinded and must be purified.  The soul and its reason must also be disciplined and healed.

The Fathers 'seemed' to disregard the body because physical discipline is so easily related to by the modern mind.  We don't even have the faintest notion about their emotional and mental asceticism: long vigils and fasting are hard on the mind as well.  They were called to constantly repent and control their thought-life.  They spent endless hours seeking inner stillness.

They were and are examples of inner self-discipline as much as physical self-discipline.
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 03:39:02 PM »

Joasia:

Thank you for sharing both those quotes.

Quote
All this to say that the reason we should crucify the flesh is because what we desire for it is not the true feelings of our nature.  We are following corrupted feelings which drag our intellect downwards.  This is the dilusion the saints talk about.  Everyone can attain dispassion and re-connect with their true nature, by disregarding all things not natural in thought and feelings.  It’s a lifetime process. 

This is fascinating. I would be very interested to hear what the Orthodox positions(s) are on "natural instincts" such as the hunger for food or sexual desire. They seem to be very necessary in the natural world and yet, as I understand it, appear after the fall due to a distortion of human nature. It would be interesting to know whether humanity experienced this pre-fall, or whether they came about due to adaption to a post-fallen environment. Also, to know how animals were affected by the fall would be interesting. I am having trouble understanding how this all fits in with our current scientific knowledge on the subject of human and animal development but this would probably open up a whole new area of discussion.

FatherGiryus:
Quote
While the various Fathers use different terminologies to describe the human person, the key for us is to read the Creation Story of Genesis: God formed Adam's body from earth, breathed in the spirit, and man became a living soul.  We are tripartite.

Would it be correct to say that animals have a soul but no spirit?- because this is, I think, what the Roman Catholic Church says. I am also a bit confused about this - is the spirit talked about the holy spirit, and if so, why do we have it after the fall- or don't we?

Thank you all for your input. It seems that I was confusing "flesh" with the physical body and did not understand the place of mental asceticism.
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 05:45:16 PM »

The spirit referred to in the Creation story is not the Holy Spirit (since it does not say Spirit of God or Holy Spirit), but the human created spirit fashioned by God.

To be honest, I have not read any Fathers addressing whether animals have spirits or not.  They certainly do not have the same souls or spirits as human beings.


FatherGiryus:
Quote
While the various Fathers use different terminologies to describe the human person, the key for us is to read the Creation Story of Genesis: God formed Adam's body from earth, breathed in the spirit, and man became a living soul.  We are tripartite.

Would it be correct to say that animals have a soul but no spirit?- because this is, I think, what the Roman Catholic Church says. I am also a bit confused about this - is the spirit talked about the holy spirit, and if so, why do we have it after the fall- or don't we?
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 11:39:21 PM »

This is a movie about souls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBDs8JpEa8&feature=channel_video_title
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:53 AM »

Father Giryus

Thank you, that is interesting. I know that Catholics differentiate between the human and animal soul by saying that humans have a rational or spiritual soul, and animals have a material soul that does not survive death. Just out of interest, is it known whether animals will have a place in the afterlife, considering the scriptural references to a "new earth"?
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 11:43:29 AM »

Since animals are not made in the Image and Likeness, their souls are indeed not 'rational' to the extent the human soul is.  However, I would not use the term 'material' to describe this condition, since the soul is definitely not made of matter the way the body is.  We can look at it as some kind of 'ectoplasm.'

Going back to the Creation Story in Genesis 1:

11 And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants
yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed,
each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so.
 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed
according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is
their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was
good.
 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the
heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for
signs and for seasons and for days and years,
 15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give
light upon the earth." And it was so.
 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule
the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars
also.
 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give
light upon the earth,
 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the
light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
 20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living
creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament
of the heavens."
 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living
creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to
their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God
saw that it was good.
 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and
fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures
according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of
the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their
kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that
creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that
it was good.
 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and
over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
he created him; male and female he created them.
 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful
and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion
over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every
living thing that moves upon the earth."
 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding
seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with
seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.
 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air,
and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the
breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was
so.
 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it
was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a
sixth day.


Animals and plants are created by God's command "Let the earth bring forth..." as a type of secondary creative act, whereas man is directly created by God.  This is why animals are generally not considered to have an immortal soul, since their existence is through the earth rather than God, and only the things of God are intended to endure.

In the renewed world after the return of Christ, the earth will continue to exist according to its originally-intended goodness (which the fall of man interfered with).  Plant and animal life are parts of the created order, and we will enjoy them as they were intended to be enjoyed, to the glory of God.


Father Giryus

Thank you, that is interesting. I know that Catholics differentiate between the human and animal soul by saying that humans have a rational or spiritual soul, and animals have a material soul that does not survive death. Just out of interest, is it known whether animals will have a place in the afterlife, considering the scriptural references to a "new earth"?
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2011, 12:36:38 PM »

Thank you FatherGiryus.
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2011, 01:22:44 PM »

No problem.

God be with you!


Thank you FatherGiryus.
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