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Author Topic: Something rotten in the state of ecumenism?  (Read 9232 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2011, 11:26:03 AM »


I did not know that the Orthodox teach that Eucharist is the Incarnation of Flesh and Bread.  I will have to add that to my list of oddities.  I promise to quote you Ialmisry.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 11:29:07 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

ialmisry
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« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2011, 11:35:48 AM »


I did not know that the Orthodox teach that Eucharist is the Incarnation of Flesh and Bread.  I will have to add that to my list of oddities.  I promise to quote you Ialmisry.
I'd be flattered, but I'm just quotting St. Justin Martyr:
Quote
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

No wonder your ecclesiastical community is abandoning the Catholic belief of Christ in the Eucharist.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2011, 11:42:11 AM »


I did not know that the Orthodox teach that Eucharist is the Incarnation of Flesh and Bread.  I will have to add that to my list of oddities.  I promise to quote you Ialmisry.
I'd be flattered, but I'm just quotting St. Justin Martyr:
Quote
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

No wonder your ecclesiastical community is abandoning the Catholic belief of Christ in the Eucharist.

By no stretch of the florid imagination does St. Justin Martyr indicate that the essence of the mystical body of Christ is incarnate with the essence of bread...leavened or unleavened.

What he does say is that the flesh and blood of Christ is our real food and drink.

If you want to grasp the Orthodox state of affairs concerning Eucharist, you'll have to check with Father Ambrose of NZ.  Apparently he and a bishop have fixed things.  He'll be able to tell you much more about it.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #183 on: July 14, 2011, 11:48:12 AM »


I did not know that the Orthodox teach that Eucharist is the Incarnation of Flesh and Bread.  I will have to add that to my list of oddities.  I promise to quote you Ialmisry.
I'd be flattered, but I'm just quotting St. Justin Martyr:
Quote
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

No wonder your ecclesiastical community is abandoning the Catholic belief of Christ in the Eucharist.

By no stretch of the florid imagination does St. Justin Martyr indicate that the essence of the mystical body of Christ is incarnate with the essence of bread...leavened or unleavened.
Well I'll leave you to toddle off and worry about the essence of bread.

What he does say is that the flesh and blood of Christ is our real food and drink.

If you want to grasp the Orthodox state of affairs concerning Eucharist, you'll have to check with Father Ambrose of NZ.  Apparently he and a bishop have fixed things.  He'll be able to tell you much more about it.
We're already (97% of us at least) on the same page, which is far more than can be said about your ecclesiastical community.
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« Reply #184 on: July 14, 2011, 01:39:28 PM »

Speaking of deviancy in the Catholic Church, here is a Catholic Patriarch you shouldn't send to bilateral discussions striving for unity with us..

Cardinal José da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon, Portugal, a veteran European prelate at one point considered a contender for the papacy, reportedly has said there’s “no fundamental theological obstacle” to the ordination of women as priests in the Catholic church.


The Patriarch of Lisbon has reversed himself.  Says he was unaware of the Pope's teaching and the Church's teaching on a male only priesthood.  It raises serious doubts when a senior member of the Magisterium is so ignorant!

Yeah, that's pretty weird.



It's not weird at all.  If you read the first translation of his interview, it is clear that he is NOT advocating an end to the all-male priesthood.

What he says is that there is 'no theological reason' for barring women from the priesthood.

What he says in his clarifying remarks is that it is not his habit to talk about such things.  He also says his remarks did not take into consideration [a pretty far cry from "not knowing"] the fact that Pope John Paul and Cardinal Ratzinger had made strong statements indicating that the Church does not have the power to ordain women.

Well even that does not encompass the reality of the first interview because in the first interview the Cardinal says that not even the pope has the power to ordain women.

So what you have is a clunky translation and people out here who don't read well and another clunky attempt to clarify something that was clear to some from the beginning.

The worst thing that the Cardinal did was to express the findings of a commission established by the Vatican who indicated that there was no theological reason for there not to be women priests.  

Pope Paul VI called the all-male priesthood a part of anthropological theology.  

Pope Benedict XVI has said that if everything is accepted under the name of "Theology" then we loose the understanding of Theology and have Religious Studies in its place.

So the real import of that interview, it seems to me, is that we don't need another public discussion concerning the all-male priesthood but it would be very useful to have a public discussion on the meaning or various meanings of the word "Theology" in the Catholic Church.

Mary

Well, I don't need translations because he gave the interview in Portuguese, my mother tongue.

He clearly said that:

1) the only good reason for not ordaining woman is Tradition;

2) This tradition may change in the future;

3) It is still a topic too hot to handle;

4) That for now, there is no Pope that would be able to change that;

5) But God may find a way if He wills;

The text, in Portuguese is as follows:

Quote
As mulheres não podem ocupar cargos de responsabilidade na Igreja Católica. Qual a sua perspetiva?

A sua afirmação não é exata, olhe, desde S. Paulo... o problema que foi posto recentemente é o do sacerdócio ministerial. Tirando isso, houve períodos em que as mulheres foram absolutamente decisivas; basta pensar no papel dos mosteiros, onde tinham altíssimas responsabilidades. o problema que se colocou foi acentuado pelo facto de igrejas não católicas terem ordenado mulheres para o sacerdócio ministerial, o que gerou, digamos assim, uma polêmica.

A posição da Igreja Católica está muito baseada no Evangelho, não tem a autonomia que tem, por exemplo, um partido político ou um governo em geral. Tem a sua fidelidade ao Evangelho, à pessoa de Jesus e a uma tradição muito forte que nós recebemos dos Apóstolos. E já no tempo de Jesus havia uma complementaridade muito bonita entre o papel da mulher e o papel do homem. Não foi por acaso que Jesus escolheu para apóstolos homens e deu às mulheres outro tipo de atenção...

Acho que este é um falso problema. Uma vez, estava numa comunidade de jovens aqui na Diocese e, quando chegamos ao diálogo, houve uma jovem que lançou a pergunta: porque é que as mulheres não podem ser padres? E eu resolvi arriscar. E disse: tens razão, mas para os outros estudarem esse assunto é preciso saber se há candidatas... qual de vocês gosta ria de seguir? Ficaram todas de cabeça para baixo.

Conheci e conheço mulheres responsáveis na Igreja que não querem o sacerdócio ministerial. Uma vez, num contexto de um encontro internacional sobre a nova evangelização, em Viena, foi lançada essa pergunta e eu disse que não há neste momento nenhum Papa que tenha poder para isso. Isso traria tensões, e só acontecerá se Deus quiser que aconteça e se estiver nos planos Dele acontecerá.

Uma vez perguntei a um sacerdote na Dinamarca, e ele foi muito curioso e disse me que no setor da caridade estão lá todas, com a sua ternura e dedicação; no que toca à presidência da missa dominical, ela esvaziou se assim que começaram as mulheres a presidir. Não sei porquê. o Santo Padre João Paulo II, a certa altura, pareceu dirimir a questão. Penso que a questão não se dirime assim; teologicamente não há nenhum obstáculo fundamental; há esta tradição, digamos assim... nunca foi de outra maneira.

Do ponto de vista teológico, não há nenhum obstáculo...

Penso que não há nenhum obstáculo fundamental. É uma igualdade fundamental de todos os membros da Igreja. o problema põe se noutra ótica, numa forte tradição, que vem desde Jesus, e na facilidade com que as igrejas reformadas foram para aí. Isto não facilitou a solução do problema, se é que o problema tem solução. Não é com certeza para a nossa vida, hoje então, no momento que estamos a viver, é um daqueles problemas que é melhor nem levantar... suscita uma série de reações.

The impression it gives is that he, personally, doesn't see any reason not to do it, but was obedient and wise to accept a discrete admoestation and later retracted.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:40:16 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #185 on: July 14, 2011, 01:52:05 PM »

Wrong thread.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:55:13 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #186 on: July 14, 2011, 02:01:47 PM »

If you want to grasp the Orthodox state of affairs concerning Eucharist, you'll have to check with Father Ambrose of NZ.  Apparently he and a bishop have fixed things.  He'll be able to tell you much more about it.

What an extraordinary statement!

Do you really not know or understand the Orthodox teaching on the Eucharist?

Would you be able to indicate whatever it is you understand and we shall tell you if it corresponds with our belief or not.  I suspect you have been misled by something.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:09:07 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
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« Reply #187 on: July 14, 2011, 02:14:35 PM »


Well, I don't need translations because he gave the interview in Portuguese, my mother tongue.

He clearly said that:

1) the only good reason for not ordaining woman is Tradition;

2) This tradition may change in the future;

3) It is still a topic too hot to handle;

4) That for now, there is no Pope that would be able to change that;

5) But God may find a way if He wills;

The impression it gives is that he, personally, doesn't see any reason not to do it, but was obedient and wise to accept a discrete admoestation and later retracted.

This is exceptionally helpful!...It doesn't change my mind much about the interview in terms of the fact that I still think the Church needs to have an open discussion on the various meanings attributed to the concept "Theology"...
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« Reply #188 on: July 14, 2011, 02:18:58 PM »


Well, I don't need translations because he gave the interview in Portuguese, my mother tongue.

He clearly said that:

1) the only good reason for not ordaining woman is Tradition;

2) This tradition may change in the future;

3) It is still a topic too hot to handle;

4) That for now, there is no Pope that would be able to change that;

5) But God may find a way if He wills;

The impression it gives is that he, personally, doesn't see any reason not to do it, but was obedient and wise to accept a discrete admoestation and later retracted.

This is exceptionally helpful!...It doesn't change my mind much about the interview in terms of the fact that I still think the Church needs to have an open discussion on the various meanings attributed to the concept "Theology"...

Is that a red herring I see dangling before us? laugh
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ialmisry
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« Reply #189 on: July 14, 2011, 03:01:49 PM »


Well, I don't need translations because he gave the interview in Portuguese, my mother tongue.

He clearly said that:

1) the only good reason for not ordaining woman is Tradition;

2) This tradition may change in the future;

3) It is still a topic too hot to handle;

4) That for now, there is no Pope that would be able to change that;

5) But God may find a way if He wills;

The impression it gives is that he, personally, doesn't see any reason not to do it, but was obedient and wise to accept a discrete admoestation and later retracted.

This is exceptionally helpful!...It doesn't change my mind much about the interview in terms of the fact that I still think the Church needs to have an open discussion on the various meanings attributed to the concept "Theology"...

Is that a red herring I see dangling before us? laugh
bring it on!
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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