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Author Topic: Venerating Chalcedonian Saints?  (Read 4254 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 05, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »

Now, I know I should consult my spiritual father before venerating a Saint outside the boundaries of the Church, however, what about all of you? Do you guys venerate EO Saints*?

*Not the controversial ones mind you
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 11:21:21 AM »

Yes. I think that there is a difference between personal veneration and the inclusion in the Synaxarium for instance.

But if we receive Chalcedonians by simple confession, and if certain 'Chalcedonian' figures cannot be shown to have promoted any error, then their sanctity is not compromised by our historical divisions. Otherwise we will say that when we unite in 2017 we all adopt most of the same saints, then when union falls down in 2037 we stop considering these figures saints, then we consider them saints again in 2054 when union is restored.

This is a little different to an official commemoration of course. But I know many OO bishops and priests who consider some 'Chalcedonian' figures to be properly addressed as saint. I certainly take this view of most British saints, not least because they had very little comprehension of the controversy which caused such problems in the East.
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 11:26:15 AM »

Are there any post-Chalcedon EO Saints in any official OO calendar?
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 11:26:40 AM »

Yes. I think that there is a difference between personal veneration and the inclusion in the Synaxarium for instance.

But if we receive Chalcedonians by simple confession, and if certain 'Chalcedonian' figures cannot be shown to have promoted any error, then their sanctity is not compromised by our historical divisions. Otherwise we will say that when we unite in 2017 we all adopt most of the same saints, then when union falls down in 2037 we stop considering these figures saints, then we consider them saints again in 2054 when union is restored.

This is a little different to an official commemoration of course. But I know many OO bishops and priests who consider some 'Chalcedonian' figures to be properly addressed as saint. I certainly take this view of most British saints, not least because they had very little comprehension of the controversy which caused such problems in the East.

Thanks for your response Father. I agree. But, do you think it would be inappropriate to venerate, say, John of Damascus? In his writings he seems to think of us as dogmatically orthodox, but, he has less than nice things to say about us due to our rejection of Chalcedon and he also refers to Saints Dioscorus and Severus as 'God-accursed'. Either way I'll still continue to admire him as a theologian.
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 11:29:19 AM »

Are there any post-Chalcedon EO Saints in any official OO calendar?
I'm not sure if he's on our calendar, but, I've heard many OO refer to John Climacus as a Saint. I know that Armenian OOs seem to have a great respect for Nectarios of Aegina. St Marina is greatly venerated by Copts and the RC Church, she died a few centuries after Chalcedon.
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 11:31:22 AM »

I would value John of Damascus as an important source for EO theology but I would not venerate him. I am always disappointed that he was in a position to understand entirely that out communities had the same substance of faith but he chose to write in a polemical manner that did not help reconciliation.
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 11:34:47 AM »

I would value John of Damascus as an important source for EO theology but I would not venerate him. I am always disappointed that he was in a position to understand entirely that out communities had the same substance of faith but he chose to write in a polemical manner that did not help reconciliation.
That's what I had thought as well, rather than having dialogues with the Syriac Orthodox and learning our position he wrote a polemical work entitled "Against the Jacobites". 
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 11:48:38 AM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian who is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox.

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.

The founding Syrian monks of the Georgian Church were all Syrian non-Chalcedonians and are venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, as is St Peter the Iberian, who was a Georgian prince and also a non-Chalcedonian.

The problem is that a mutual veneration would generally require some geographical overlap, and/or an historical equivalency about Chalcedon. Those bishops etc who were positively Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian increasingly took a polemical line which made mutual veneration difficult after their repose.

Those figures who might be mutually venerated would be likely to be those who avoided controversy and were therefore respected by both parties. St Barsanuphius might be one such figure who can be claimed by both sides because he avoided controversy.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 11:54:33 AM »

Speaking of which, Father, do you know where I can find the writings of St Peter the Iberian? I heard he was a friend of St Severus.
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 12:00:22 PM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian who is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox.

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.

The founding Syrian monks of the Georgian Church were all Syrian non-Chalcedonians and are venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, as is St Peter the Iberian, who was a Georgian prince and also a non-Chalcedonian.

The problem is that a mutual veneration would generally require some geographical overlap, and/or an historical equivalency about Chalcedon. Those bishops etc who were positively Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian increasingly took a polemical line which made mutual veneration difficult after their repose.

Those figures who might be mutually venerated would be likely to be those who avoided controversy and were therefore respected by both parties. St Barsanuphius might be one such figure who can be claimed by both sides because he avoided controversy.
Perhaps it is because I am young and niave in the faith that I even ask this, but would it not be possible for us -- if there is some union, of course -- to mutually acknowledge each other's saints and within our confessions simply think of some of them as being more wrong than others (e.g. how many EOs see St. Augustine)?
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 12:06:43 PM »

Agabus said:
Perhaps it is because I am young and niave in the faith that I even ask this, but would it not be possible for us -- if there is some union, of course -- to mutually acknowledge each other's saints and within our confessions simply think of some of them as being more wrong than others (e.g. how many EOs see St. Augustine)? [End Quote]

I guess, we'll still let you guys venerate Leo, Theodoret, et al and you guys will have to tolerate us venerating Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, et al. In the letters of St Severus of Antioch he says that we shouldn't be strict concerning the names of men commemorated in the diptychs so long as the Orthodox faith is confessed. I don't mind the thought of my hierarchs lifting the anathemas off of Leo and Flavian as much as the thought of lifting the anathemas off of, say, Nestorius or Theodore.
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 12:21:36 PM »

I guess, we'll still let you guys venerate Leo, Theodoret, et al and you guys will have to tolerate us venerating Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, et al. In the letters of St Severus of Antioch he says that we shouldn't be strict concerning the names of men commemorated in the diptychs so long as the Orthodox faith is confessed. I don't mind the thought of my hierarchs lifting the anathemas off of Leo and Flavian as much as the thought of lifting the anathemas off of, say, Nestorius or Theodore.
I think that we can all agree that the mutually anathemized can stay that way.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 12:25:24 PM »

I guess, we'll still let you guys venerate Leo, Theodoret, et al and you guys will have to tolerate us venerating Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, et al. In the letters of St Severus of Antioch he says that we shouldn't be strict concerning the names of men commemorated in the diptychs so long as the Orthodox faith is confessed. I don't mind the thought of my hierarchs lifting the anathemas off of Leo and Flavian as much as the thought of lifting the anathemas off of, say, Nestorius or Theodore.
I think that we can all agree that the mutually anathemized can stay that way.  Wink
Most definitely, I was merely entertaining the thought.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 12:33:23 PM »

There are a variety of good books about St Peter the Iberian.

Asceticism and Christological controversy in fifth-century Palestine:the career of Peter the Iberian
Cornelia B. Horn

John Rufus and the world vision of anti-Chalcedonian culture
Jan-Eric Steppa

The lives of Peter the Iberian, Theodosius of Jerusalem, and the Monk Romanus
Cornelia B. Horn, Robert R. Phenix

St Severus adopted the monastic life at a monastery in Maiuma, which was the episcopal seat of St Peter the Iberian. St Severus would have known St Peter as he came to the end of his life, as he died in 491AD.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 12:34:56 PM »

Thank you Father. I will try to get my hands on some of those books.
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 12:35:05 PM »

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall St. Simon writing in favor of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 12:37:55 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall St. Simon writing in favor of Chalcedon.
That you'll have to ask someone else about, I don't know for sure and I don't want to speak out of ignorance. However I do remember reading of a certain Simeon on another thread who was friends with Theodoret of Cyrus, he is also commemorated by the OO.
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 01:32:36 PM »

It's not clear. There are multiple lives of St Simeon the Stylite from the OO tradition as well as correspondence critical of Chalcedon.

He may have changed his mind to an anti-Chalcedonian position, or the EO letter may be a forgery.

It is unlikely that he would have such veneration from among the OO if he was very Chalcedonian. I think that St Severus wrote a hymn in his honour.
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 01:07:17 PM »

Weren't there two Symeon Stylites? The elder who was Non-Chalcedonian and a Symeon the Younger who was Chalcedonian?  I'm going off memory, so I may be totally mistaken.

As for me, I hold St. Seraphim of Sarov in very high esteem.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 01:27:04 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

This also reminds me of the veneration some Orthodox have of St Francis of Assisi. One Orthodox writer sees him as deluded compared to, say, St Seraphim of Sarov. I say comparisons are odious.There are 'saints' who are problematical for Orthodox, St Francis being one of them. I think the stigmata are a bit worrisome because new in the history of the church but otherwise he seems to have all the attributes of sainthood for those who wish to venerate him. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 02:09:18 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

Did His Grace point out the reason for his forbiddance?
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 02:43:15 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

Did His Grace point out the reason for his forbiddance?
No he didn't. I assume there is a difference between liturgical veneration and private. Similar to the veneration of St Francis. He has no public cult in the Orthodox church but if you feel drawn to him perhaps you might venerate privately.
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 02:45:09 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

Did His Grace point out the reason for his forbiddance?
No he didn't. I assume there is a difference between liturgical veneration and private. Similar to the veneration of St Francis. He has no public cult in the Orthodox church but if you feel drawn to him perhaps you might venerate privately.

But Saint Cuthbert and Saint Aidan were part of the Orthodox Church. It's a very different situation from Francis of Assissi. St. John of Shanghai encouraged the veneration of these saints and there's no reason not to put them in the calendar.
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 02:57:37 PM »

Bishop Angaelos is a bishop of the Coptic church. Sts Cuthbert and Aidan came after the differences between Chalcedonians and non Chalcedonians although the issues may not have meant much to them. So I was interested to know about their status. I think Francis is a pretty good parallel to Sts Cuthbert and Aidan since he came after the Great schism which is usually taken to be 1054 just as they came after the split between OO and EO usually taken to have been in the 6th century.
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 03:01:36 PM »

Okay, I was just confused because your jurisdiction is the MP. Why would you need to talk to a Coptic bishop?
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 03:12:58 PM »

Okay, I was just confused because your jurisdiction is the MP. Why would you need to talk to a Coptic bishop?
Because I like his style.

Seriously I attended a meeting where young Copts meet, pray and listen to a talk by Bishop Angaelos. I think I might have sold the format to my own church who are not doing as much as they ought for English speakers. But anyway, it was Bishop Angaelos' talk that really inspired me at the meeting (called the Grapevine Fellowship and meets in London every fortnight)to challenge the Russians to offer more of a forum for English speakers.
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »

I don't think my question warrants a new thread, so I'll just piggyback off of this one.

Do the OO consider St. Isaac of Nineveh a saint?  He was, in his life, a member of the Nestorian Church, but is a saint in the EO communion (in part because he was not, to my knowledge, actually a Nestorian, despite being a part of their communion).
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 06:30:28 PM »

You might find this thread helpful:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15328.0.html
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 07:44:47 PM »

Do the OO consider St. Isaac of Nineveh a saint?
Yes, we do venerate him. I know His Holiness Pope St Kyrillos (Cyril) VI, the previous Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church, loved him and his writings. My own Coptic parish has quotes from St Isaac hung on the walls.
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 08:51:43 PM »

Thank you both.
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2011, 10:48:48 PM »

--Bump--
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2011, 11:42:07 PM »

I don't think my question warrants a new thread, so I'll just piggyback off of this one.

Do the OO consider St. Isaac of Nineveh a saint?  He was, in his life, a member of the Nestorian Church, but is a saint in the EO communion (in part because he was not, to my knowledge, actually a Nestorian, despite being a part of their communion).

I was about to mention St. Isaac the Syrian, but saw that its the same person! Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2011, 01:34:04 PM »

Hmmm... How many EOs here have venerated OO Saints (and vice-versa)? I am curious because I myself have venerated Chalcedonian Saints (like Saint John Climacus, for example).
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2011, 05:10:04 PM »

When in Egypt I venerated the relics of, Pope Kyrillos, Abouna Youstus and Tamav Irina. They are saints whatever sort of orthodox you are. I don't think I will excommunicated, at least, I hope not.
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2011, 05:12:51 PM »

Read 'I will be excommunicated'
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

Read 'I will be excommunicated'
I don't think you will be excommunicated. Were you excommunicated?
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2011, 05:49:06 PM »

No, but venerating other saints might be considered odd.
Some EOs venerate Francis of Assisi who is more iffy from an EO point of view than those saints I mentioned.

Sorry to name drop but when Pope Shenouda was told I venerated Tamav Irina he didn't say anything. The worst reason I can think of was that he didn't consider her a saint. On reflection this cannot possibly be true and there must be some other explanation for his silence.

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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2011, 05:51:13 PM »

Perhaps it's because she still isn't a canonized Saint? Still, it's only a matter of time...
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2011, 06:16:00 PM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian
I don't know if that's accurate. I'd say she's a Chalcedonian who accepted the non-Chalcedonians as Orthodox.
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2011, 06:27:12 PM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian
I don't know if that's accurate. I'd say she's a Chalcedonian who accepted the non-Chalcedonians as Orthodox.
No, she was vehemently anti-Chalcedonian.

Theodora and Religion

Theodora remained a [Miaphysite Orthodox] Christian, and her husband remained an [Chalcedonian] orthodox Christian. Some commentators -- including Procopius -- allege that their differences were more a pretense than a reality, presumably to keep the church from having too much power. She was known as a protector of members of the Monophysite faction when they were accused of heresy. She supported the moderate Monophysite Severus and, when he was excommunicated and exiled -- with Justinian's approval -- Theodorus helped him to settle in Egypt. Another excommunicated Monophysite, Anthimus, was still hiding in the women's quarters when Theodora died, twelve years after the excommunication order. She sometimes explicitly worked against her husband's support of Chalcedonian Christianity in the ongoing struggle for the predominance of each faction, especially at the edges of the empire.


 http://womenshistory.about.com/od/medbyzantempress/a/theodora.htm
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2011, 06:39:17 PM »

But where is the evidence? Justinian wasn't even born when Chalcedon happened.
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »

But where is the evidence? Justinian wasn't even born when Chalcedon happened.
Justinian was Chalcedonian while she was not, I don't think any historical source will tell you otherwise. Can you provide evidence she was a Chalcedonian?
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2011, 07:17:40 PM »

But where is the evidence? Justinian wasn't even born when Chalcedon happened.
Justinian was Chalcedonian while she was not, I don't think any historical source will tell you otherwise. Can you provide evidence she was a Chalcedonian?
She was born in and lived in Greece.  Wink

Those same secondary sources use her support for OO saints as the only evidence for her being a "non-Chalcedonian".
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2011, 07:23:15 PM »

She was born in and lived in Greece.  Wink

Those same secondary sources use her support for OO saints as the only evidence for her being a "non-Chalcedonian".
I don't think a single historical source on God's green Earth which will say that she was a Chalcedonian. Her anti-Chalcedonianism is an almost indisputable reality, simply doing a couple of Google searches will cause you to reach that conclusion.

Oh and another thing, I don't mean to write this in an aggressive tone so please don't take this offensively. Smiley Wink
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2011, 07:28:43 PM »

Her anti-Chalcedonianism is an almost indisputable reality
Why?
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Tags: Chalcedon saints veneration Oriental Orthodox eastern orthodox St. Isaac the Syrian St. Theodora St. Simeon Stylites 
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