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Author Topic: Venerating Chalcedonian Saints?  (Read 4685 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 05, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »

Now, I know I should consult my spiritual father before venerating a Saint outside the boundaries of the Church, however, what about all of you? Do you guys venerate EO Saints*?

*Not the controversial ones mind you
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 11:21:21 AM »

Yes. I think that there is a difference between personal veneration and the inclusion in the Synaxarium for instance.

But if we receive Chalcedonians by simple confession, and if certain 'Chalcedonian' figures cannot be shown to have promoted any error, then their sanctity is not compromised by our historical divisions. Otherwise we will say that when we unite in 2017 we all adopt most of the same saints, then when union falls down in 2037 we stop considering these figures saints, then we consider them saints again in 2054 when union is restored.

This is a little different to an official commemoration of course. But I know many OO bishops and priests who consider some 'Chalcedonian' figures to be properly addressed as saint. I certainly take this view of most British saints, not least because they had very little comprehension of the controversy which caused such problems in the East.
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 11:26:15 AM »

Are there any post-Chalcedon EO Saints in any official OO calendar?
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 11:26:40 AM »

Yes. I think that there is a difference between personal veneration and the inclusion in the Synaxarium for instance.

But if we receive Chalcedonians by simple confession, and if certain 'Chalcedonian' figures cannot be shown to have promoted any error, then their sanctity is not compromised by our historical divisions. Otherwise we will say that when we unite in 2017 we all adopt most of the same saints, then when union falls down in 2037 we stop considering these figures saints, then we consider them saints again in 2054 when union is restored.

This is a little different to an official commemoration of course. But I know many OO bishops and priests who consider some 'Chalcedonian' figures to be properly addressed as saint. I certainly take this view of most British saints, not least because they had very little comprehension of the controversy which caused such problems in the East.

Thanks for your response Father. I agree. But, do you think it would be inappropriate to venerate, say, John of Damascus? In his writings he seems to think of us as dogmatically orthodox, but, he has less than nice things to say about us due to our rejection of Chalcedon and he also refers to Saints Dioscorus and Severus as 'God-accursed'. Either way I'll still continue to admire him as a theologian.
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 11:29:19 AM »

Are there any post-Chalcedon EO Saints in any official OO calendar?
I'm not sure if he's on our calendar, but, I've heard many OO refer to John Climacus as a Saint. I know that Armenian OOs seem to have a great respect for Nectarios of Aegina. St Marina is greatly venerated by Copts and the RC Church, she died a few centuries after Chalcedon.
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 11:31:22 AM »

I would value John of Damascus as an important source for EO theology but I would not venerate him. I am always disappointed that he was in a position to understand entirely that out communities had the same substance of faith but he chose to write in a polemical manner that did not help reconciliation.
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 11:34:47 AM »

I would value John of Damascus as an important source for EO theology but I would not venerate him. I am always disappointed that he was in a position to understand entirely that out communities had the same substance of faith but he chose to write in a polemical manner that did not help reconciliation.
That's what I had thought as well, rather than having dialogues with the Syriac Orthodox and learning our position he wrote a polemical work entitled "Against the Jacobites". 
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 11:48:38 AM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian who is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox.

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.

The founding Syrian monks of the Georgian Church were all Syrian non-Chalcedonians and are venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, as is St Peter the Iberian, who was a Georgian prince and also a non-Chalcedonian.

The problem is that a mutual veneration would generally require some geographical overlap, and/or an historical equivalency about Chalcedon. Those bishops etc who were positively Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian increasingly took a polemical line which made mutual veneration difficult after their repose.

Those figures who might be mutually venerated would be likely to be those who avoided controversy and were therefore respected by both parties. St Barsanuphius might be one such figure who can be claimed by both sides because he avoided controversy.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 11:54:33 AM »

Speaking of which, Father, do you know where I can find the writings of St Peter the Iberian? I heard he was a friend of St Severus.
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 12:00:22 PM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian who is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox.

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.

The founding Syrian monks of the Georgian Church were all Syrian non-Chalcedonians and are venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, as is St Peter the Iberian, who was a Georgian prince and also a non-Chalcedonian.

The problem is that a mutual veneration would generally require some geographical overlap, and/or an historical equivalency about Chalcedon. Those bishops etc who were positively Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian increasingly took a polemical line which made mutual veneration difficult after their repose.

Those figures who might be mutually venerated would be likely to be those who avoided controversy and were therefore respected by both parties. St Barsanuphius might be one such figure who can be claimed by both sides because he avoided controversy.
Perhaps it is because I am young and niave in the faith that I even ask this, but would it not be possible for us -- if there is some union, of course -- to mutually acknowledge each other's saints and within our confessions simply think of some of them as being more wrong than others (e.g. how many EOs see St. Augustine)?
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 12:06:43 PM »

Agabus said:
Perhaps it is because I am young and niave in the faith that I even ask this, but would it not be possible for us -- if there is some union, of course -- to mutually acknowledge each other's saints and within our confessions simply think of some of them as being more wrong than others (e.g. how many EOs see St. Augustine)? [End Quote]

I guess, we'll still let you guys venerate Leo, Theodoret, et al and you guys will have to tolerate us venerating Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, et al. In the letters of St Severus of Antioch he says that we shouldn't be strict concerning the names of men commemorated in the diptychs so long as the Orthodox faith is confessed. I don't mind the thought of my hierarchs lifting the anathemas off of Leo and Flavian as much as the thought of lifting the anathemas off of, say, Nestorius or Theodore.
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 12:21:36 PM »

I guess, we'll still let you guys venerate Leo, Theodoret, et al and you guys will have to tolerate us venerating Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, et al. In the letters of St Severus of Antioch he says that we shouldn't be strict concerning the names of men commemorated in the diptychs so long as the Orthodox faith is confessed. I don't mind the thought of my hierarchs lifting the anathemas off of Leo and Flavian as much as the thought of lifting the anathemas off of, say, Nestorius or Theodore.
I think that we can all agree that the mutually anathemized can stay that way.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 12:25:24 PM »

I guess, we'll still let you guys venerate Leo, Theodoret, et al and you guys will have to tolerate us venerating Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, et al. In the letters of St Severus of Antioch he says that we shouldn't be strict concerning the names of men commemorated in the diptychs so long as the Orthodox faith is confessed. I don't mind the thought of my hierarchs lifting the anathemas off of Leo and Flavian as much as the thought of lifting the anathemas off of, say, Nestorius or Theodore.
I think that we can all agree that the mutually anathemized can stay that way.  Wink
Most definitely, I was merely entertaining the thought.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 12:33:23 PM »

There are a variety of good books about St Peter the Iberian.

Asceticism and Christological controversy in fifth-century Palestine:the career of Peter the Iberian
Cornelia B. Horn

John Rufus and the world vision of anti-Chalcedonian culture
Jan-Eric Steppa

The lives of Peter the Iberian, Theodosius of Jerusalem, and the Monk Romanus
Cornelia B. Horn, Robert R. Phenix

St Severus adopted the monastic life at a monastery in Maiuma, which was the episcopal seat of St Peter the Iberian. St Severus would have known St Peter as he came to the end of his life, as he died in 491AD.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 12:34:56 PM »

Thank you Father. I will try to get my hands on some of those books.
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 12:35:05 PM »

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall St. Simon writing in favor of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 12:37:55 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall St. Simon writing in favor of Chalcedon.
That you'll have to ask someone else about, I don't know for sure and I don't want to speak out of ignorance. However I do remember reading of a certain Simeon on another thread who was friends with Theodoret of Cyrus, he is also commemorated by the OO.
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 01:32:36 PM »

It's not clear. There are multiple lives of St Simeon the Stylite from the OO tradition as well as correspondence critical of Chalcedon.

He may have changed his mind to an anti-Chalcedonian position, or the EO letter may be a forgery.

It is unlikely that he would have such veneration from among the OO if he was very Chalcedonian. I think that St Severus wrote a hymn in his honour.
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 01:07:17 PM »

Weren't there two Symeon Stylites? The elder who was Non-Chalcedonian and a Symeon the Younger who was Chalcedonian?  I'm going off memory, so I may be totally mistaken.

As for me, I hold St. Seraphim of Sarov in very high esteem.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 01:27:04 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

This also reminds me of the veneration some Orthodox have of St Francis of Assisi. One Orthodox writer sees him as deluded compared to, say, St Seraphim of Sarov. I say comparisons are odious.There are 'saints' who are problematical for Orthodox, St Francis being one of them. I think the stigmata are a bit worrisome because new in the history of the church but otherwise he seems to have all the attributes of sainthood for those who wish to venerate him. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 02:09:18 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

Did His Grace point out the reason for his forbiddance?
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 02:43:15 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

Did His Grace point out the reason for his forbiddance?
No he didn't. I assume there is a difference between liturgical veneration and private. Similar to the veneration of St Francis. He has no public cult in the Orthodox church but if you feel drawn to him perhaps you might venerate privately.
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 02:45:09 PM »

For what it's worth I phoned Bishop Angaelos to ask him about the status of some of my beloved pre Norman conquest saints inclusding St Cuthbert and St Aidan. He said one of his communion could venerate them privately but obviously not publicly in the liturgy.

Did His Grace point out the reason for his forbiddance?
No he didn't. I assume there is a difference between liturgical veneration and private. Similar to the veneration of St Francis. He has no public cult in the Orthodox church but if you feel drawn to him perhaps you might venerate privately.

But Saint Cuthbert and Saint Aidan were part of the Orthodox Church. It's a very different situation from Francis of Assissi. St. John of Shanghai encouraged the veneration of these saints and there's no reason not to put them in the calendar.
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 02:57:37 PM »

Bishop Angaelos is a bishop of the Coptic church. Sts Cuthbert and Aidan came after the differences between Chalcedonians and non Chalcedonians although the issues may not have meant much to them. So I was interested to know about their status. I think Francis is a pretty good parallel to Sts Cuthbert and Aidan since he came after the Great schism which is usually taken to be 1054 just as they came after the split between OO and EO usually taken to have been in the 6th century.
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 03:01:36 PM »

Okay, I was just confused because your jurisdiction is the MP. Why would you need to talk to a Coptic bishop?
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 03:12:58 PM »

Okay, I was just confused because your jurisdiction is the MP. Why would you need to talk to a Coptic bishop?
Because I like his style.

Seriously I attended a meeting where young Copts meet, pray and listen to a talk by Bishop Angaelos. I think I might have sold the format to my own church who are not doing as much as they ought for English speakers. But anyway, it was Bishop Angaelos' talk that really inspired me at the meeting (called the Grapevine Fellowship and meets in London every fortnight)to challenge the Russians to offer more of a forum for English speakers.
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »

I don't think my question warrants a new thread, so I'll just piggyback off of this one.

Do the OO consider St. Isaac of Nineveh a saint?  He was, in his life, a member of the Nestorian Church, but is a saint in the EO communion (in part because he was not, to my knowledge, actually a Nestorian, despite being a part of their communion).
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 06:30:28 PM »

You might find this thread helpful:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15328.0.html
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 07:44:47 PM »

Do the OO consider St. Isaac of Nineveh a saint?
Yes, we do venerate him. I know His Holiness Pope St Kyrillos (Cyril) VI, the previous Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church, loved him and his writings. My own Coptic parish has quotes from St Isaac hung on the walls.
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 08:51:43 PM »

Thank you both.
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2011, 10:48:48 PM »

--Bump--
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2011, 11:42:07 PM »

I don't think my question warrants a new thread, so I'll just piggyback off of this one.

Do the OO consider St. Isaac of Nineveh a saint?  He was, in his life, a member of the Nestorian Church, but is a saint in the EO communion (in part because he was not, to my knowledge, actually a Nestorian, despite being a part of their communion).

I was about to mention St. Isaac the Syrian, but saw that its the same person! Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2011, 01:34:04 PM »

Hmmm... How many EOs here have venerated OO Saints (and vice-versa)? I am curious because I myself have venerated Chalcedonian Saints (like Saint John Climacus, for example).
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2011, 05:10:04 PM »

When in Egypt I venerated the relics of, Pope Kyrillos, Abouna Youstus and Tamav Irina. They are saints whatever sort of orthodox you are. I don't think I will excommunicated, at least, I hope not.
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2011, 05:12:51 PM »

Read 'I will be excommunicated'
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

Read 'I will be excommunicated'
I don't think you will be excommunicated. Were you excommunicated?
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2011, 05:49:06 PM »

No, but venerating other saints might be considered odd.
Some EOs venerate Francis of Assisi who is more iffy from an EO point of view than those saints I mentioned.

Sorry to name drop but when Pope Shenouda was told I venerated Tamav Irina he didn't say anything. The worst reason I can think of was that he didn't consider her a saint. On reflection this cannot possibly be true and there must be some other explanation for his silence.

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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2011, 05:51:13 PM »

Perhaps it's because she still isn't a canonized Saint? Still, it's only a matter of time...
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2011, 06:16:00 PM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian
I don't know if that's accurate. I'd say she's a Chalcedonian who accepted the non-Chalcedonians as Orthodox.
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2011, 06:27:12 PM »

Well it's the other way round of course, but St Theodora the Empress is a non-Chalcedonian
I don't know if that's accurate. I'd say she's a Chalcedonian who accepted the non-Chalcedonians as Orthodox.
No, she was vehemently anti-Chalcedonian.

Theodora and Religion

Theodora remained a [Miaphysite Orthodox] Christian, and her husband remained an [Chalcedonian] orthodox Christian. Some commentators -- including Procopius -- allege that their differences were more a pretense than a reality, presumably to keep the church from having too much power. She was known as a protector of members of the Monophysite faction when they were accused of heresy. She supported the moderate Monophysite Severus and, when he was excommunicated and exiled -- with Justinian's approval -- Theodorus helped him to settle in Egypt. Another excommunicated Monophysite, Anthimus, was still hiding in the women's quarters when Theodora died, twelve years after the excommunication order. She sometimes explicitly worked against her husband's support of Chalcedonian Christianity in the ongoing struggle for the predominance of each faction, especially at the edges of the empire.


 http://womenshistory.about.com/od/medbyzantempress/a/theodora.htm
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2011, 06:39:17 PM »

But where is the evidence? Justinian wasn't even born when Chalcedon happened.
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »

But where is the evidence? Justinian wasn't even born when Chalcedon happened.
Justinian was Chalcedonian while she was not, I don't think any historical source will tell you otherwise. Can you provide evidence she was a Chalcedonian?
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2011, 07:17:40 PM »

But where is the evidence? Justinian wasn't even born when Chalcedon happened.
Justinian was Chalcedonian while she was not, I don't think any historical source will tell you otherwise. Can you provide evidence she was a Chalcedonian?
She was born in and lived in Greece.  Wink

Those same secondary sources use her support for OO saints as the only evidence for her being a "non-Chalcedonian".
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2011, 07:23:15 PM »

She was born in and lived in Greece.  Wink

Those same secondary sources use her support for OO saints as the only evidence for her being a "non-Chalcedonian".
I don't think a single historical source on God's green Earth which will say that she was a Chalcedonian. Her anti-Chalcedonianism is an almost indisputable reality, simply doing a couple of Google searches will cause you to reach that conclusion.

Oh and another thing, I don't mean to write this in an aggressive tone so please don't take this offensively. Smiley Wink
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2011, 07:28:43 PM »

Her anti-Chalcedonianism is an almost indisputable reality
Why?
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« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2011, 07:31:24 PM »

Her anti-Chalcedonianism is an almost indisputable reality
Why?
Because that seems to be the concensus in academia.
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« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2011, 07:32:28 PM »

Her anti-Chalcedonianism is an almost indisputable reality
Why?
Because that seems to be the concensus in academia.
I'm asking what the evidence is.  Wink
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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2011, 07:34:51 PM »

I'm asking what the evidence is.  Wink
Well, pretty much every article I have read about her said that she was anti-Chalcedonian.
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« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2011, 07:37:48 PM »

I'm asking what the evidence is.  Wink
Well, pretty much every article I have read about her said that she was anti-Chalcedonian.
And they say that because they interpret Theodora's protection and endorsement of figures outside of Chalcedon as proof that she espoused a non-Chalcedonian belief system, which is illogical and, above all, anachronistic.
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« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2011, 07:49:00 PM »

And they say that because they interpret Theodora's protection and endorsement of figures outside of Chalcedon as proof that she espoused a non-Chalcedonian belief system, which is illogical and, above all, anachronistic.
While I agree that her support for anti-Chalcedonian figures alone isn't enough to prove that she was anti-Chalcedonian, the argument does, to a degree, make sense. In any case, can you cite a source, from a scholar/historian which says that she was Chalcedonian?
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« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2011, 07:56:34 PM »

And they say that because they interpret Theodora's protection and endorsement of figures outside of Chalcedon as proof that she espoused a non-Chalcedonian belief system, which is illogical and, above all, anachronistic.
While I agree that her support for anti-Chalcedonian figures alone isn't enough to prove that she was anti-Chalcedonian, the argument does, to a degree, make sense. In any case, can you cite a source, from a scholar/historian which says that she was Chalcedonian?
My source is Procopius, who states that, if I'm not mistaken, Theodora was from Greece.
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« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2011, 07:59:15 PM »

My source is Procopius, who states that, if I'm not mistaken, Theodora was from Greece.
Most scholars think that Procopius' work is a joke, so don't take it too seriously. Nevertheless, even if she were from Greece that doesn't automatically mean she was a Chalcedonian. Patr. Acacius of Constantinople, for example, was an anti-Chalcedonian.

Btw, if mods want to move this tangent, could you please try your best to keep it on the public fora? Thank you, your efforts are appreciated!
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« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2011, 08:01:09 PM »

My source is Procopius, who states that, if I'm not mistaken, Theodora was from Greece.
Most scholars think that Procopius' work is a joke, so don't take it too seriously.
Procopius had a History and a Secret history. The latter is a joke.
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« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2011, 08:02:53 PM »

Procopius had a History and a Secret history. The latter is a joke.
I see, I thought you were referencing the latter.
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« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2011, 10:13:49 PM »

This has been discussed before.  St. Theodora was anti-Chalcedon, but nevertheless greatly loved her Chalcedonian husband.  This is what I said before about St. Theodora being anti-Chalcedon:

1.  People who were contemporaries of her described her as such.  I am aware of no contemporaries of the saint who claim she was a Chalcedonian who was merely doing pastoral outreach to Non-Chalcedonians.  To the limited extent that I have read anything that viewed her as Chalcedonian, they were sources written centuries after her death. They seem to be polemics aimed at denying that anyone venerated by EO's or Catholics could ever be a Non-Chalcedonian.

2.  The things she did for the Non-Chalcedonians went way beyond what could be viewed as Chalcedonian pastoral outreach to Non-Chalcedonians.  She hid Non-Chalcedonian theologians and bishops from her husband, when he wanted to arrest them.  She sent out Non-Chalcedonian missionaries, and I have heard the story mentioned by Alexios, wherein she delayed Chalcedonian missionaries so that her own Non-Chalcedonian ones could reach their destination first.  Those are just not the actions of a devout Chalcedonian, regardless of what her pastoral duties may have been.


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9271.msg269093.html#msg269093

Here is the story about St. Theodora delaying Chalcedonian missionaries so that her own Non-Chalcedonian missionaries could get there first:


Quote
The Evangelization of Nubia, John of Ephesus, Ecclesiastical History

Archaeologists have traced Africa's ancient black culture of Nubia back to 3100 B.C.E. Located in modern southern Egypt and northern Sudan, Nubia comprised three kingdoms (Nobatia, Makouria, and Alwa) that converted to Christianity in the sixth century. The following account of the non-Chalcedonian bishop, John of Ephesus (ca. 507-586), describes the rivalry between the Chalcedonian emperor, Justinian, and his non-Chalcedonian wife, Theodora, who both sent missionaries to evangelize the Nobatai. Though neighboring Egypt fell to the Arabs in the seventh century, strong Christian kingdoms in Nubia resisted conquest and conversion to Islam until the fourteenth century.

Among the clergy in attendance upon pope Theodosius was a presbyter named Julian, an old man of great worth, who conceived an earnest spiritual desire to christianize the wandering people who dwell on the eastern borders of the Thebais [a region of upper Egypt], beyond Egypt, and who are not only not subject to the authority of the Roman empire, but even receive a subsidy on condition that they do not enter or pillage Egypt. The blessed Julian, therefore, being full of anxiety for this people, went and spoke about them to the late queen Theodora, in the hope of awakening in her a similar desire for their conversion; and as the queen was fervent in zeal for God, she received the proposal with joy, and promised to do everything in her power for the conversion of these tribes from the errors of idolatry. In her joy, therefore, she informed the victorious king Justinian of the proposed undertaking, and promised and anxiously desired to send the blessed Julian thither. But when the king heard that the person she intended to send was opposed to the council of Chalcedon, he was not pleased, and determined to write to the bishops of his own side in the Thebais, with orders for them to proceed thither and instruct them, and plant among them the name of the synod. And as he entered upon the matter with great zeal, he sent thither, without a moment's delay, ambassadors with gold and baptismal robes, and gifts of honor for the king of that people, and letters for the duke of of the Thebais, enjoining him to take every care of the embassy, and escort them to the territories of the Nobidae [i.e., the people of Nobatia, one of the Nubian kingdoms]. When, however, the queen learnt these things, she quicky, with much cunning, wrote letters to the duke of the Thebais, and sent a mandatory of her court to carry them to him; and which were as follows: "Inasmuch as both his majesty and myself have proposed to send an embassy to the people of Nobidae, and I am now despatching a blessed man named Julian; and further my will is, that my ambassador should arrive at the aforesaid people before his majesty's; be warned, that if you permit his ambassador to arrive there before mine, and not hinder him by various pretexts until mine shall have reached you, and have passed through your province, and arrived as his destination, your life shall answer for it; for I will immediately send and take off your head."

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9271.msg269888.html#msg269888

The above was written by a contemporary of Justinian who liked him.
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« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2011, 05:34:21 AM »

Would the OO venerate, say...St. Olav?
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« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2011, 11:24:17 AM »

Would the OO venerate, say...St. Olav?
I wouldn't mind venerating him, he wasn't involved in the Christological controversies, was he? Would you, let's say, venerate St Barsoum the Confessor? He was a very famous Coptic Orthodox ascetic from the 12th century and he wasn't very involved in the OO Vs. Chalcedonian debates.
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« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2011, 11:53:10 AM »

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.

From the Prologue of Ohrid by St. Nikolai of Zica, for September 1:

Quote
The Venerable Simeon the Stylite

http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/prolog.htm

He was born in Syria of peasant parents. At the age of eighteen, he left home and was tonsured a monk. He undertook the most difficult ascetic practices, and sometimes undertook a strict fast for forty days. He eventually took upon himself a form of asceticism that was previously unknown. He stood day and night on a pillar, in unceasing prayer. At first, his pillar was six cubits high; he later raised it to twelve cubits, then to twenty-two cubits, then to thirty-six cubits, and finally to forty cubits high. On two occasions his mother Martha came to see him, but he refused to receive her, saying from atop the pillar: ``Do not disturb me now, my mother. If we become worthy, then we'll see each other in the next world.'' St. Simeon endured countless assaults from demons, but he conquered them all by prayer to God. The saint worked many great miracles, healing by word and prayer many who were afflicted. People from all over gathered around his pillar-the rich and the poor, kings and slaves. Simeon helped everyone: healing some of infirmities, comforting those in need, instructing others, and reproaching some who held heretical beliefs. Thus, he turned Empress Eudocia from the Eutychian heresy and brought her back to Orthodoxy. He lived the ascetic life during the reigns of the Emperors Theodosius the Younger, Marcian and Leo the Great. Simeon, the first great stylite in Christianity and a great miracle-worker, lived to be 103 years old. He reposed in the Lord on September 1, 459. His relics were translated to Antioch, to the church dedicated to his name.

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« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2011, 11:59:19 AM »

St Simon the Stylite is a non-Chalcedonian saint. He was and is venerated by the OO.

Here in the UK we have held a liturgy at the shrine of St Eanswythe near where I live. She was an Anglo-Saxon princess saint, an Abbess. Our Eritrean brethren joined us and offered liturgical dance in her honour.

I venerate all the British saints since none can be clearly shown to have had much knowledge at all of the Christological controversies. It was enough for most of them to insist on the dual consubstantiality of the incarnate Word.

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« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2011, 12:13:52 PM »

St Simon the Stylite is a non-Chalcedonian saint. He was and is venerated by the OO.

Then what do you make of the story regarding his rebuke of Empress Eudocia for her Non-Chalcedonianism, and her return to Chalcedonian Orthodoxy from the influence of St. Simeon? 

Quote
The Emperor Theodosius Junior the 2nd (408-450) respected Venerable Simeon deeply and often followed his advice. When the Emperor died, his widow, queen Eudocia, was perverted to a monophysical heresy. Monophysites did not recognize dual nature of Christ - Godly and human - they believed only in the Godly one. Venerable Simeon enlightened the queen and she again became an Orthodox Christian.
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints/simeon_stylites.htm

Quote
St Juvenal the Patriarch of Jerusalem
Commemorated on July 2


http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsLife.asp?FSID=101868

 
In 451, the Fourth Ecumenical Council met in the city of Chalcedon. It condemned the Eutchian [Monophysite] heresy, which taught that the human nature in Christ was totally swallowed up and absorbed by the divine nature. The holy Fathers, among them St Juvenal, condemned the heresy of Eutychius and affirmed the Orthodox doctrine of the union of two natures in the Lord Jesus Christ, the divine and the human, without separation and without mixture. The heretics, however, continued to confuse the minds of Christians.

At the head of the heretics stood Theodosius, who had won over to his side the widow of the emperor Theodosius the Younger (+ 450), named Eudokia, who lived at Jerusalem. He demanded that Patriarch Juvenal repudiate the Council of Chalcedon, that is, that he should renounce the Orthodox dogma of the two natures in Christ.

St Juvenal would not agree to embrace falsehood, and bravely confessed the Chalcedon doctrine before the heretics. Theodosius and his adherents then deposed Patriarch Juvenal from the patriarchal throne. The saint withdrew to Constantinople, to Patriarch Anatolius (July 3) and the emperor Marcian. The heretic Theodosius, under the patronage of Eudokia, occupied the patriarchal throne in Palestine, but only for twenty months. Emperor Marcian, holding St Juvenal in high esteem, placed him on the patriarchal throne once more, and so the holy confessor returned to Jerusalem.

The saint made many efforts to restore Church peace. At the suggestion of St Simeon the Stylite, the empress Eudokia repented before St Juvenal and returned to communion with the Orthodox. A large part of the Jerusalem flock, who had been led astray by the heretics, followed her. Having defeated the pernicious heresies, and having established oneness of mind and propriety, Patriarch Juvenal died peacefully among his faithful flock, after serving as a bishop for thirty-eight years.

St. Daniel the Stylite, who lived at the same time as St. Simeon and met St. Simeon, is noted for coming down from his pillar only once – “to convince Emperor Baliscus to abandon the Monophysite heresy.” (http://saints.sqpn.com/saintd41.htm)

How do you reconcile these statements with your claims that St. Simeon was a Non-Chalcedonian?
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« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2011, 12:16:22 PM »

I don't want to speak for Fr. Peter, but I think he means that St. Simeon is a saint in the non-Chalcedonian churches, not that he necessarily rejected Chalcedon.
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« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2011, 12:30:01 PM »

I don't want to speak for Fr. Peter, but I think he means that St. Simeon is a saint in the non-Chalcedonian churches, not that he necessarily rejected Chalcedon.

In a message above, Fr. Peter stated:

St Simon the Stylite is commemorated by the Eastern Orthodox while he wrote against Chalcedon.

Perhaps Fr. Peter could provide examples of St. Simon/Simeon's anti-Chalcedonian writings? 
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« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2011, 02:32:10 PM »

Of course I meant in the first case that St Simeon the Stylie is venerated by the non-Chalcedonians.

But his lives show that whether or not at some point he supported Chalcedon, later on he certainly did not seem to.

St Severus wrote a hymn in honour of him which means that I find it impossible to believe that he was considered a Chalcedonian by St Severus and his associates. St Severus corresponded with the Abbot of St Simeon's monastery.

I think that it would be an interesting study if he were approached in a neutral manner. Rather than trying simply to own him for one side or the other.

If I have time I'll dig out some passages that are most interesting from the OO tradition.

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« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2011, 03:14:45 PM »

I'd venerate St. Gebre Menfes Kidus. Even if 90% of his fantastic hagiography is fictional, he must have been an extraordinary man to inspire such legends. St. Nerses Shorhali sounds pretty neat too.

Of course, my opinion is kind of useless, I guess.
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« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2011, 03:25:54 PM »

Fr. John Meyendorff noted somewhere that John the Merciful, a Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria (610-621) , is venerated by the Coptic Church.  But I think that's been disputed in one of our threads.

I'm aware of two East Syriac Fathers our Church venerates:

St. Isaac of Nineveh (Isaac the Syrian)
St. John Saba (John of Dalyatha)
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« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2011, 03:33:54 PM »

Fr. John Meyendorff noted somewhere that John the Merciful, a Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria (610-621) , is venerated by the Coptic Church.  But I think that's been disputed in one of our threads.

I'm aware of two East Syriac Fathers our Church venerates:

St. Isaac of Nineveh (Isaac the Syrian)
St. John Saba (John of Dalyatha)
Orthodoxwiki.org (I know it's a Wiki, but still... Smiley) says that during the reign of the Chalcedonian Patriarch John the Merciful there was an Orthodox Patriarch whose name was also John and later surnamed "the merciful", so perhaps that's why there's a mix-up. I could be wrong, though:
Quote
John's relations with non-Chalcedonians are treated briefly in John Meyendorff Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions: The Church 450-680 A.D. (Crestwood NY 1989). Meyendorff's statement that John is venerated as a saint by the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches seems to be a confusion with John IV, Coptic Pope of Alexandria of the late 7th century, also surnamed the "Merciful" but presented as a staunch opponent of Chalcedonian Christology (see the Coptic Encyclopedia). http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_the_Merciful
I heard that the John the Merciful was very kind and sympathetic towards the Orthodox population in Egypt, which wasn't too common among Chalcedonian Patriarchs at the time as many of them brutally treated the Orthodox in Egypt, Syria, and Armenia. I'd venerate John the Merciful, he was a good man from what I have read about him.

And no, this post is not supposed to be polemical in any way.
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« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2011, 08:51:33 PM »

I get the feeling that the stories cited by Jah were not actually recorded during the time when St. Simeon the Stylite lived, but rather were written sometime afterwards.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong.  

Some years ago I read the three lives that were written during his time:

http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Simeon-Stylites-Cistercian-Studies/dp/0879075120

I recall nothing from those lives that showed him to have taken a position on Chalcedon, even though one of the lives was written by Theodoret.

It is my understanding that there are both a set of pro-Chalcedon letters and anti-Chalcedon letters attributed to him, but I don't think that scholars have definitely verified the authenticity of either set.

The Armenians and other Oriental Orthodox have venerated him from a very early time.

I get the feeling that he really did not take a position on Chalcedon, but rather concerned himself purely with asceticism.  That's just my opinion, of course.   Smiley

Daniel the Stylite, on the other hand, lived near Constantinople, and therefore was more susceptible to getting involved in the Christological politics of his time.  
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« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2011, 10:00:58 PM »

I haven't read the Cistercian Studies publication on St. Symeon, but here is one translation from the Syriac along with some introductory notes regarding the text:  

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/simeon_stylites_vita_00_intro.htm

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/simeon_stylites_vita_01_trans.htm

The version linked above does not mention Chalcedon.

The version of his life presented in "The Great Synaxaristes of the Orthodox Church" published by Dormition Skete in Colorado seems to be mostly drawn from the Greek Life preserved in the Great Lavra on Mt. Athos, with some stories and facts taken from other sources as well ( including the Greek and Syriac versions contained in "The Lives of Saint Simeon Stylites" published by Cistercian Studies).  I'm not sure of the date of the manuscript preserved in the Great Lavra, or what manuscript that version is based on, but the following additional information concerning St. Symeon and Chalcedon is provided in the Dormition Skete Great Synaxaristes which presumably comes from the Great Lavra manuscript:


"Theodoretos of Kyros, whom we mentioned earlier, was a close friend of the saint, by whom he was counseled.  After becoming a bishop, he was often embroiled in theological controversies, taking the side of Nestorios and attacking Saint Kyril of Alexandria.  He maintained his position even after the condemnation of Nestorianism at the Synod of Ephesus (431).  Theodosios II, who was strongly urged by the saint to pursue virtue, in 432 exhorted the holy man to press John of Antioch to be reconciled with the great Kyril of Alexandria.  In 434, the saint succeeded in persuading Theodoretos on the same issue, though the latter was distressed by the pressure brought to bear on him.  Theodoretos was deposed and exiled in 449 by the Robber Synod of Ephesus at the behest of Patriarch Dioscoros of Alexandria.  Not finding any consolation or change in his troubles, he betook himself to the holy man, who comforted him and reminded him of the reward awaiting the man who patiently endures temptations.  The saint then told him that his situation would change.  He was restored after appeals to Pope Leo I and Emperor Marcian, but was compelled by the Synod of Chalcedon (451) to anathematize Nestorios.  On several occasions the imperial court requested Saint Symeon to intervene in doctrinal disputes.  After the Synod of Chalcedon, the sacred stylite also advised the dowager Empress Evdokia at Jerusalem, who had succumbed to the heresy of the Monophysites.  Over the course of four years of letter writing, which the holy man dictated to his disciples, he persuaded her to favor the Chalcedonian Synod and reconciliation with Juvenal of Jerusalem.  In 457 Symeon, the pillar of Orthodox belief,, responded to Emperor Leo’s circular letter, again in favor of Chalcedon. (p.22)  "
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« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2011, 10:39:37 PM »

Again, my guess is that the above was written some time after St. Simeon lived, and for polemical purposes.  It's in none of his contemporary lives.
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« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2011, 10:42:20 PM »

I think we all know the direction this thread is going... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2011, 11:31:21 PM »

Again, my guess is that the above was written some time after St. Simeon lived, and for polemical purposes.  It's in none of his contemporary lives.

Forgive me if I have derailed the thread by focusing so much on St. Symeon, but Fr. Peter's comment regarding him being against Chalcedon interested me.  The moderator may want to split the discussion around St. Symeon into a separate thread. 

I found the below link to be very helpful and informative regarding St. Symeon and various letters ascribed to him (both pro-Chalcedon and anti-Chalcedon).  I read through this a bit quickly, but I'm interested in what you all think about what is presented.  It appears from the facts provided that the letters expressing a pro-Chalcedon position are more dependable and believable that those expressing an anti-Chalcedon position, and that the earliest sources and histories corroborate the events summarized in the excerpt from the Great Synaxaristes that I included in a previous post:

What do you think?

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/simeon_stylites_letters_01_trans.htm

Excerpt:
The remaining letters ascribed to the Stylite are all concerned with the theological controversies of the fifth century.

The best known among these is the letter approving the council of Chalcedon, quoted in part by Evagrius (Eccl. Hist., ii. 10), and afterward cited by other historians. The circumstances under which it was written are narrated as follows by Evagrius. The emperor Leo (I.) Thrax (reigned 457-474) sent out, soon after his accession to the throne, a circular letter 12 to the bishops of the empire and to a few of the most celebrated monks, requesting their judgment upon the council of Chalcedon. Simeon Stylites, who was the most noted of the monks addressed,13 wrote to the emperor in reply, approving the council; and at the same time sent a letter of similar tenor to Basil, bishop of Antioch, who, it seems, had also written to ask for his judgment, perhaps with the added purpose of influencing him to send a favorable reply to the emperor. This letter to Basil is the one quoted by Evagrius, who hints that he had also at his disposal the letter of Simeon to |258 Leo, and would have included it in his history if it had not been too long. The letter ran thus (in the translation of the Bohn Library):

"To my lord, the most religious and holy servant of God, the archbishop Basil, the sinful and humble Simeon wishes health in the Lord. Well, may we now say, my lord, Blessed be God, who has not rejected our prayer, nor withdrawn his mercy from us sinners. For, on the receipt of the letters of your worthiness, I admired the zeal and piety of our sovereign, beloved of God, which he manifested and still manifests towards the holy fathers and their unshaken faith. And this gift is not from ourselves, as says the holy apostle, but from God, who through your prayers bestowed on him this readiness of mind." .... "On this account I also, though mean and worthless, the refuse of the monks, have conveyed to his majesty my judgment respecting the creed of the 630 holy fathers assembled at Chalcedon, firmly resolving to abide by the faith there revealed by the Holy Spirit; for if, in the midst of two or three who are gathered together in his name, the Saviour is present, how could it be otherwise than that the Holy Spirit should be throughout in the midst of so many and so distinguished holy fathers?" . . . . "Wherefore be stout and courageous in the cause of true piety, as was also Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, in behalf of the Children of Israel. I beg you to salute from me all the reverend clergy who are under your holiness, and the blessed and most faithful laity."

The evidence for the genuineness of this letter is in general much like that appealed to in the case of the preceding, but is considerably stronger. Evagrius has an excellent reputation for trustworthiness as a historian, and wrote in Antioch, where a letter dictated by this saint at the pinnacle of his fame (not more than two years before his death) would certainly have been preserved. There seems to be no reason to doubt that Leo wrote to Simeon on this occasion, as attested by Evagrius, the Codex Encyclius,14 and many subsequent historians, and denied by none. And the testimony is uniform that all of those addressed by the emperor returned answers favorable to the council of Chalcedon, excepting only Timotheus of Alexandria and Amphilochius of Side. Note especially the testimony of the Monophysite historian Zacharias of Mytilene (Land, Anecdota Syriaca, |259 vol. iii. p. 142).

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« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2011, 12:21:49 AM »

I guess we could go back and forth on this forever, without anyone being convinced of the other's position.  

Like I said, I know I have read in the past that none of the letters are considered reliable.  

Also, I've read the lives that were written at the time St. Simeon existed and they mention none of this.  You would think that if St. Simeon had come out in favor of Chalcedon, then at least Theodoret would have mentioned it in the life that he wrote.  

Also, if the saint were so strongly involved in supporting Chalcedon, I'm not sure all the OO's would have had such an ancient tradition of venerating him.
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« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2011, 01:04:19 AM »

I read the article you linked, and it seems to me to be more of an argument in favor of a position, than a neutral treatment of the matter.  At least that was my take on it. 

Also, it was written 112 years ago, and I can't help but think that more scholarship has been done since then.

The author's bias seems to shine through especially in his treatment of the anti-Chalcedonian letters attributed to St. Simeon which were contained in Syriac manuscripts in the British Museum:

Quote
But the question as to Simeon's theological position during the last years of his life---that is, at the time when the above-mentioned letters to Leo, Basil, and Eudocia, are supposed to have been written---is raised anew by the three hitherto unpublished letters of which, mention has already been made. All three are decidedly controversial, and in them the Stylite speaks as a bitter opponent of the Chalcedonense.

He admits that they had not been the subject of much study, but he still comes to the conclusion that they are forgeries.  Like I said, this was 112 years ago, and I am sure others since then have studied the manuscripts more in depth.

Again, what I have heard is that none of the letters are universally accepted as reliable.  I think people will just believe what they want about the saint. 
 
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« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2011, 01:14:24 AM »

Regardless of his Christological position, may he pray for us all!
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« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2012, 06:59:19 AM »

Regardless of his Christological position, may he pray for us all!

A hymn from St. Severus of Antioch, concerning the Holy Simeon the Stylite:

Text 32
Hymn 147
 
On the holy Simeon the Stylite
‘Come and listen, let me tell you’ (cf. Ps 66:16)
The exalted and immense height of the upright and just
Simeon’s way of life brings into the heart of the believers the
words of the Lord, which he spoke: ‘A city on the top of a hill
cannot be concealed’ (Matt 5:14).
As he ascended to the exalted height of virtues, he showed this
plainly, and by his appearance on the column, he made it clear
that he was the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:14), as
it is written.
He drew both unbelievers and barbarians to the fear of God,
and those who were dwelling in the darkness of error (cf. Is 9–
1–2) (he drew) to the light of (true) knowledge—like a star,
which sends out rays on its appearance.
By his prayers, O Saviour of all, have pity and mercy upon us!


http://ixoyc.net/data/Fathers/538.doc

Feel free to contribute any more to the discussion.
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