Author Topic: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy  (Read 1292 times)

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Offline Severian

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St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« on: July 04, 2011, 07:08:59 PM »
Is the liturgy of Saint James, the brother of God, the same in the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch as it is in the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem? Is the liturgy of Saint Basil in the Coptic Orthodox tradition the same as the liturgy of Saint Basil in the EO tradition?

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« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 07:14:36 PM by Severian »
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Offline arimethea

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2011, 07:40:08 PM »
The short answer is no.

In all cases these liturgies have evolved along the cultural and liturgical norms of the community.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 08:32:14 PM »
Well, the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church are Oriental Orthodox churches. The Oriental Orthodox have a different rite from the Eastern Orthodox. Therefore the structure, wording, and prayers in any Oriental Orthodox liturgy are going to be quite different from an Eastern Orthodox one.  However, when you get to the prayers of the Anaphora in Saint James' Liturgy, I would bet that the text in all three rites gets very similar.

Offline Severian

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 12:08:55 AM »
Thanks for the responses.  :)
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 08:51:15 AM »
Thanks for the responses.  :)
Could you post the OO liturgies and maybe an EO could post ours and we could compare them? It'd be neat to see them side by side.

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Andrew
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 10:42:03 AM »
Is the liturgy of Saint James, the brother of God, the same in the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch as it is in the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem?

The Syriac Liturgy of St James is a fifth-century translation of the original Greek. It rose to prominence amongst non-Chalcedonians throughout Mesopotamia, eventually replacing the native Mesopotamian anaphoras, but it was edited by Jacob Baradaeus (+578) and then underwent a substantial reformation in the 12th century renaissance of the Syriac Church. A major figure in the revision was Dionysius bar Salibi (+1171). The anaphora of St James itself is retained, but there are aspects of the rite that are unique to the Syriac, Arab, and other regional cultures of the middle ages. (As an aside: The anaphora of St. James is the model for all of the various anaphoras in the Syriac Church, of which there are more than sixty.)

Is the liturgy of Saint Basil in the Coptic Orthodox tradition the same as the liturgy of Saint Basil in the EO tradition?

The Coptic Liturgy of St Basil is actually based on a Syriac source (not a Cappadocian one). While the Coptic rites obviously constitute their own liturgical family (the Alexandrian), they were influenced by the Syriac Church in the middle of the sixth century and again during the Syriac renaissance in the middle ages. So was Ethiopia.

None of the above is surprising: All Orthodox (from Byzantines to Ethiopians) derive significant parts of their liturgical heritage from the Antiochene tradition. Either originally or in the fourth/fifth century or in the middle ages.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 10:57:10 AM by pensateomnia »
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 10:57:34 AM »
The British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St James according to the Greek text and tradition.

I have compared our text with, among others, that of Archimandrite Ephrem Lash, and it is the same text in all points, although we use a traditional English liturgical language.

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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 11:01:59 AM »
The British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St James according to the Greek text and tradition.

I have compared our text with, among others, that of Archimandrite Ephrem Lash, and it is the same text in all points, although we use a traditional English liturgical language.

Father Peter

Does this include the Sanctus and the list of commemorated saints during the anaphora?
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 11:13:53 AM »
You mean....

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts. Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory. Hosanna in the Highest.....

Yes. We sing that.

Do you mean the commemoration while the phrase 'Remember O Lord our God' is repeated?

We have that also.
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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 02:31:52 PM »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »
So far as I can tell, the differences developed between the SyOC and the EO on the Liturgy of James have been from gradual cultural modifications over time. I think the situation with the Liturgy of Basil between the COC and the EO is different; it seems that they are actually entirely different anaphoras.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »
The British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St James according to the Greek text and tradition.

How did you end up adopting Greek tradition instead of OO one?

Offline Father Peter

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Re: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 12:30:44 PM »
My bishop has written about this saying....

Quote
The Liturgy of Saint James was first used in the British Isles in the eighteenth century. In 1744 there was published posthumously The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of Jerusalem, being the Liturgy of Saint James, Freed from all latter Additions and Interpolations of Whatever kind, and so restored to it’s original purity: By comparing it with the Account given of that Liturgy by St. Cyril in his fifth Mystagogical Catechism. Its author was Thomas Rattray, Bishop of Brechin and subsequently Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church from 1739-1743.

Bishop Rattray’s text served as the basis of a Communion Office, which was used in the Scottish Episcopal Church from 1764-1911 and again when revised in 1912 and was quite distinct from the Book of Common Prayer as used in the Church of England.

and

Quote
The decision in principle to adopt the Liturgy of Saint James in place of the Glastonbury Rite had been taken prior to the beginning of our talks with the Coptic Orthodox Church but these now necessitated bringing the proposed schedule forward so that all the necessary changes coincided with our reception into the Patriarchate of Alexandria.

We had chosen Saint James after much careful consideration because of its primitive and apostolic character. To think of it as an ‘Eastern’ as opposed to a ‘Western’ liturgy seems to me to be putting the emphasis in quite the wrong place. Perhaps because our congregations had been using a Byzantinised Western rite I felt it would not present too great a change of ethos. Saint James, like Saint Basil, was common to both families of Orthodox though the there is far more common text in Saint James. The many similarities with Saint Basil ar e also very appropriate in view of our union with the Coptic Patriarchate, where Saint Basil’s Liturgy is the most widely used. We chose Greek Saint James because in spite of having been Byzantinised it is still closer to the primitive rite than Syriac Saint James, which has been heavily embellished.
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