OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 31, 2014, 02:17:14 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: St James & St Basil's Liturgies in EOxy vs. OOxy  (Read 1111 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« on: July 04, 2011, 07:08:59 PM »

Is the liturgy of Saint James, the brother of God, the same in the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch as it is in the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem? Is the liturgy of Saint Basil in the Coptic Orthodox tradition the same as the liturgy of Saint Basil in the EO tradition?

In Christ,
Severian
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 07:14:36 PM by Severian » Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq & Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2011, 07:40:08 PM »

The short answer is no.

In all cases these liturgies have evolved along the cultural and liturgical norms of the community.
Logged

Joseph
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 530


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 08:32:14 PM »

Well, the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church are Oriental Orthodox churches. The Oriental Orthodox have a different rite from the Eastern Orthodox. Therefore the structure, wording, and prayers in any Oriental Orthodox liturgy are going to be quite different from an Eastern Orthodox one.  However, when you get to the prayers of the Anaphora in Saint James' Liturgy, I would bet that the text in all three rites gets very similar.
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 12:08:55 AM »

Thanks for the responses.  Smiley
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq & Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,220



« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 08:51:15 AM »

Thanks for the responses.  Smiley
Could you post the OO liturgies and maybe an EO could post ours and we could compare them? It'd be neat to see them side by side.

In Christ
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 10:42:03 AM »

Is the liturgy of Saint James, the brother of God, the same in the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch as it is in the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem?

The Syriac Liturgy of St James is a fifth-century translation of the original Greek. It rose to prominence amongst non-Chalcedonians throughout Mesopotamia, eventually replacing the native Mesopotamian anaphoras, but it was edited by Jacob Baradaeus (+578) and then underwent a substantial reformation in the 12th century renaissance of the Syriac Church. A major figure in the revision was Dionysius bar Salibi (+1171). The anaphora of St James itself is retained, but there are aspects of the rite that are unique to the Syriac, Arab, and other regional cultures of the middle ages. (As an aside: The anaphora of St. James is the model for all of the various anaphoras in the Syriac Church, of which there are more than sixty.)

Is the liturgy of Saint Basil in the Coptic Orthodox tradition the same as the liturgy of Saint Basil in the EO tradition?

The Coptic Liturgy of St Basil is actually based on a Syriac source (not a Cappadocian one). While the Coptic rites obviously constitute their own liturgical family (the Alexandrian), they were influenced by the Syriac Church in the middle of the sixth century and again during the Syriac renaissance in the middle ages. So was Ethiopia.

None of the above is surprising: All Orthodox (from Byzantines to Ethiopians) derive significant parts of their liturgical heritage from the Antiochene tradition. Either originally or in the fourth/fifth century or in the middle ages.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 10:57:10 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,605



WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 10:57:34 AM »

The British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St James according to the Greek text and tradition.

I have compared our text with, among others, that of Archimandrite Ephrem Lash, and it is the same text in all points, although we use a traditional English liturgical language.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 11:01:59 AM »

The British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St James according to the Greek text and tradition.

I have compared our text with, among others, that of Archimandrite Ephrem Lash, and it is the same text in all points, although we use a traditional English liturgical language.

Father Peter

Does this include the Sanctus and the list of commemorated saints during the anaphora?
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,605



WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 11:13:53 AM »

You mean....

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts. Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory. Hosanna in the Highest.....

Yes. We sing that.

Do you mean the commemoration while the phrase 'Remember O Lord our God' is repeated?

We have that also.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 02:31:52 PM »

Here's the Coptic liturgy of St Basil: http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_basil.pdf
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq & Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »

So far as I can tell, the differences developed between the SyOC and the EO on the Liturgy of James have been from gradual cultural modifications over time. I think the situation with the Liturgy of Basil between the COC and the EO is different; it seems that they are actually entirely different anaphoras.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,507



« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »

The British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St James according to the Greek text and tradition.

How did you end up adopting Greek tradition instead of OO one?
Logged
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,605



WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 12:30:44 PM »

My bishop has written about this saying....

Quote
The Liturgy of Saint James was first used in the British Isles in the eighteenth century. In 1744 there was published posthumously The Ancient Liturgy of the Church of Jerusalem, being the Liturgy of Saint James, Freed from all latter Additions and Interpolations of Whatever kind, and so restored to it’s original purity: By comparing it with the Account given of that Liturgy by St. Cyril in his fifth Mystagogical Catechism. Its author was Thomas Rattray, Bishop of Brechin and subsequently Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church from 1739-1743.

Bishop Rattray’s text served as the basis of a Communion Office, which was used in the Scottish Episcopal Church from 1764-1911 and again when revised in 1912 and was quite distinct from the Book of Common Prayer as used in the Church of England.

and

Quote
The decision in principle to adopt the Liturgy of Saint James in place of the Glastonbury Rite had been taken prior to the beginning of our talks with the Coptic Orthodox Church but these now necessitated bringing the proposed schedule forward so that all the necessary changes coincided with our reception into the Patriarchate of Alexandria.

We had chosen Saint James after much careful consideration because of its primitive and apostolic character. To think of it as an ‘Eastern’ as opposed to a ‘Western’ liturgy seems to me to be putting the emphasis in quite the wrong place. Perhaps because our congregations had been using a Byzantinised Western rite I felt it would not present too great a change of ethos. Saint James, like Saint Basil, was common to both families of Orthodox though the there is far more common text in Saint James. The many similarities with Saint Basil ar e also very appropriate in view of our union with the Coptic Patriarchate, where Saint Basil’s Liturgy is the most widely used. We chose Greek Saint James because in spite of having been Byzantinised it is still closer to the primitive rite than Syriac Saint James, which has been heavily embellished.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.068 seconds with 41 queries.