Author Topic: rites  (Read 545 times)

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Offline henrikhankhagnell

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rites
« on: July 02, 2011, 09:23:22 AM »
after the church split when the Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxes was no longer in union it seems that the Eastern Orthodoxes chose to follow the Byzantine rite and the Catholic chose to follow the Roman Rite. Maybe it's not 100 % right what i just wrote but that's how it usually is told. Why did happen like this, that the Orthodoxes chose the Byzantine rite and the Catholic chose the Roman rite? Why didn't the Orthodox chose to follow two rites? please explain and give us the Orthodox answer.
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: rites
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 10:58:53 AM »
At the time of the separation, those weren't mutual decisions that were made by both bodies. The rites were organically-developed manifestations of the commonly held faith and sacramental life and when the East and West started to grow apart (for various reasons) they both just continued to do what they were doing, liturgically speaking.

In fact, at that time, there many, many local/regional rites in use, besides the Roman and Byzantine, such as the Gallican, Celtic, Mozarabic in the West, and the Alexandrian, Antiochian and Constantinopolitan in the East.

So we don't have the rites we have today because they were chosen at the time of the Schism, it's just what naturally happened.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: rites
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 11:12:29 AM »
after the church split when the Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxes was no longer in union it seems that the Eastern Orthodoxes chose to follow the Byzantine rite and the Catholic chose to follow the Roman Rite. Maybe it's not 100 % right what i just wrote but that's how it usually is told. Why did happen like this, that the Orthodoxes chose the Byzantine rite and the Catholic chose the Roman rite? Why didn't the Orthodox chose to follow two rites? please explain and give us the Orthodox answer.
Both Old and New Rome, when it commissioned missionaries, they spread their own rites.  As they consolidated their power over their communion, they suppressed the other rites in their communion.  In the case of Orthodoxy, the rites of Alexandria and Antioch were suppressed just before the Crusade of 1204, Jerusalem replaced centuries earlier (with the influx of foreign pilgrims). In the process, they made adherence to their rites the badge of submission to the Vatican, or adherence to the Orthodox diptychs respectively.

There is no Orthodox answer to why there should be only one rite.  Hence the WRO, and the limited usage of the rite of Jerusalem (St. James). Alexandria and Antioch should revive their own rites, as their OO kept them.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: rites
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 11:23:06 AM »
To add some more specificity to what Sleeper wrote, the Byzantine rite that we know today evolved under the influence of several major monastic movements (e.g. Mar Sabbas outside of Jerusalem, the Stoudios outside of Constantinople, and, later, Mt. Athos). To simplify radically, monasteries like these would begin to celebrate the services in a certain way. They'd also compose new hymns for those services. Over several generations, sometimes 300 or more years, that way of doing things would spread to many other monasteries and even into the cathedrals, who would mix the monastic traditions into their own ancient, local way of doing things. Then another major monastic movement would arise and its influence would contribute to the shape of the Byzantine rite in the same way. This process started in the Byzantine commonwealth before the Great Schism, and is true of other liturgical worlds (e.g. Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, etc.)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:33:39 AM by pensateomnia »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: rites
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 11:30:47 AM »
To add some more specificity to what Sleeper wrote, the Byzantine rite that we know today evolved under the influence of several major monastic movements (e.g. Mar Sabbas outside of Jerusalem, the Stoudios outside of Constantinople, and, later, Mt. Athos)...
...And under imperial decree.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: rites
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 11:36:19 AM »
To add some more specificity to what Sleeper wrote, the Byzantine rite that we know today evolved under the influence of several major monastic movements (e.g. Mar Sabbas outside of Jerusalem, the Stoudios outside of Constantinople, and, later, Mt. Athos)...
...And under imperial decree.

I'm unaware of any imperial decree that approved or spread the changes coming from the monasteries. If anything, the emperors preferred and tried to preserve the old ways (viz. the writings of Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:38:45 AM by pensateomnia »
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline William

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Re: rites
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 12:43:06 PM »
There is no Orthodox answer to why there should be only one rite.  Hence the WRO, and the limited usage of the rite of Jerusalem (St. James). Alexandria and Antioch should revive their own rites, as their OO kept them.
Out of curiosity, which rite is generally used in Jerusalem? The Liturgy of St. James or that of St. John Chrysostom?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: rites
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »
There is no Orthodox answer to why there should be only one rite.  Hence the WRO, and the limited usage of the rite of Jerusalem (St. James). Alexandria and Antioch should revive their own rites, as their OO kept them.
You have stated this opinion before on forum and the more i think about it, I think you are correct.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: rites
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 01:03:51 PM »
There is no Orthodox answer to why there should be only one rite.  Hence the WRO, and the limited usage of the rite of Jerusalem (St. James). Alexandria and Antioch should revive their own rites, as their OO kept them.
Out of curiosity, which rite is generally used in Jerusalem? The Liturgy of St. James or that of St. John Chrysostom?
St. John. St. James was at one time relegated to only on his feast day and the Sunday after Christmas, but is more often now (though I've seen it claimed that daily celebration goes on, I didn't see that in Jerusalem).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth