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Rdunbar123
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« on: June 30, 2011, 06:00:54 PM »

I will become a catechumen july 10th. I will attend a Western Rite church which since i am a cradle Roman catholic and remember pre VII i feel at home. my only reservation is how many different people post on this site that are not in communion with  other EO churches. I understand the OO, EO, RC differences, and I can understand in family arguments in each jurisdiction but isn't the strength of Orthodoxy that the faith is based on Scripture first(given to us by the pre-schism church), the Ecumenical councils second, and Fathers third. Local Councils to solve problems as they arise. The criticism I hear and agree with about the RCC(aside from infallibility and filioque ect) is that they are more dogmatic about many  things that the EO church says either we don't know or  its a mystery. much more legalistic about things  that probably God doesn't either care about. It seems to me that people are switching jurisdictions over which side of the egg to break(ala Gulliver) how is this different than the church hopping Protestants do? I am not leaving a church I have loved lightly, I just find that historically the RCC left Orthodoxy not the other way around. Just saying this really my main concern.
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 07:26:52 PM »

I just find that historically the RCC left Orthodoxy not the other way around.

Not from what i'm learning about them.
Seems to me if it was the other way around then they left for similar reason to the one lucifer got kicked out of heaven for.
But i've only just started to learn about RCC church.
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Maria
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 07:34:33 PM »

I will become a catechumen july 10th. I will attend a Western Rite church which since i am a cradle Roman catholic and remember pre VII i feel at home. my only reservation is how many different people post on this site that are not in communion with  other EO churches. I understand the OO, EO, RC differences, and I can understand in family arguments in each jurisdiction but isn't the strength of Orthodoxy that the faith is based on Scripture first(given to us by the pre-schism church), the Ecumenical councils second, and Fathers third. Local Councils to solve problems as they arise. The criticism I hear and agree with about the RCC(aside from infallibility and filioque ect) is that they are more dogmatic about many  things that the EO church says either we don't know or  its a mystery. much more legalistic about things  that probably God doesn't either care about. It seems to me that people are switching jurisdictions over which side of the egg to break(ala Gulliver) how is this different than the church hopping Protestants do? I am not leaving a church I have loved lightly, I just find that historically the RCC left Orthodoxy not the other way around. Just saying this really my main concern.

I am also an ex-RC happily at home now in Orthodoxy.

When I read The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy Ware), I was convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy.
When four Patriarchs remain in communion with each other and the other (Rome) departs, that says a lot.
Papal infallibility and Papal supremacy were the first pillars of Roman Catholicism to crack, and when those two dogmas tumbled, then I realized that I was no longer a Roman Catholic. I had engaged in a serious study of Papal infallibility and supremacy with a member of Catholic Answers and an Orthodox Priest. The truths of Orthodoxy won.
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Rdunbar123
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 07:58:29 PM »

I also have read the orthodox church and love the tone of Love not hate for other Christians. I am convinced of the truth of orthodoxy after study of history and councils. I am looking forward to Chrismation and communion
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2011, 08:00:08 PM »

I will become a catechumen july 10th. I will attend a Western Rite church which since i am a cradle Roman catholic and remember pre VII i feel at home. my only reservation is how many different people post on this site that are not in communion with  other EO churches. I understand the OO, EO, RC differences, and I can understand in family arguments in each jurisdiction but isn't the strength of Orthodoxy that the faith is based on Scripture first(given to us by the pre-schism church), the Ecumenical councils second, and Fathers third. Local Councils to solve problems as they arise. The criticism I hear and agree with about the RCC(aside from infallibility and filioque ect) is that they are more dogmatic about many  things that the EO church says either we don't know or  its a mystery. much more legalistic about things  that probably God doesn't either care about. It seems to me that people are switching jurisdictions over which side of the egg to break(ala Gulliver) how is this different than the church hopping Protestants do? I am not leaving a church I have loved lightly, I just find that historically the RCC left Orthodoxy not the other way around. Just saying this really my main concern.

I am also an ex-RC happily at home now in Orthodoxy.

When I read The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy Ware), I was convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy.
When four Patriarchs remain in communion with each other and the other (Rome) departs, that says a lot.
Papal infallibility and Papal supremacy were the first pillars of Roman Catholicism to crack, and when those two dogmas tumbled, then I realized that I was no longer a Roman Catholic. I had engaged in a serious study of Papal infallibility and supremacy with a member of Catholic Answers and an Orthodox Priest. The truths of Orthodoxy won.

This is one of the main things that convinced me as well. Like most Westerners I had grown up assuming the RCC was "the" original church. No one knew a thing about the Orthodox church since it was confined mostly to the East until Orthodox immigrants started coming to the US in large numbers, and evangelicals began discovering it too.

What I still can't figure out to this day (and I can't ask her because she is dead), is why my mother told me something she once did when I was a teenager.

She was raised RC, converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1944 partly so she could marry my (Jewish) father, but as a teen I became fascinated by the various religions, and started studying them. Itw as when I was a teen that I first came across the issue of the RCC and whether it was the original one or not. I remember asking my mother, and she casually said the Orthodox Church was the original one. At the time it didn't mean much to me but in retrospect I wonder, WHY did she say that? I didn't even know what they were then!
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2011, 08:13:37 PM »

She was raised RC, converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1944 partly so she could marry my (Jewish) father, but as a teen I became fascinated by the various religions, and started studying them. Itw as when I was a teen that I first came across the issue of the RCC and whether it was the original one or not. I remember asking my mother, and she casually said the Orthodox Church was the original one. At the time it didn't mean much to me but in retrospect I wonder, WHY did she say that? I didn't even know what they were then!
Something about what you relate in this paragraph really impresses me. I know I am engaging in perhaps dangerously rambling thoughts today, but one often hears so many vexing questions as to "why" something or someone exists, or why something is the way it is and the often given answer "that the Lord only knows" or "it's God's will" come to mind. Who is to say that your mother's entire life was served in the Lords' work by making this ONE comment to you?
Just beautiful.
Thanks.
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Maria
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2011, 08:54:45 PM »

She was raised RC, converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1944 partly so she could marry my (Jewish) father, but as a teen I became fascinated by the various religions, and started studying them. Itw as when I was a teen that I first came across the issue of the RCC and whether it was the original one or not. I remember asking my mother, and she casually said the Orthodox Church was the original one. At the time it didn't mean much to me but in retrospect I wonder, WHY did she say that? I didn't even know what they were then!
Something about what you relate in this paragraph really impresses me. I know I am engaging in perhaps dangerously rambling thoughts today, but one often hears so many vexing questions as to "why" something or someone exists, or why something is the way it is and the often given answer "that the Lord only knows" or "it's God's will" come to mind. Who is to say that your mother's entire life was served in the Lords' work by making this ONE comment to you?
Just beautiful.
Thanks.

I agree.

Did your mother die a Christian? With her statement, it sounds like she was Orthodox by desire.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 08:55:49 PM by Maria » Logged

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sainthieu
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 09:56:21 PM »

The criticism I hear and agree with about the RCC(aside from infallibility and filioque ect) is that they are more dogmatic about many  things that the EO church says either we don't know or  its a mystery. much more legalistic about things  that probably God doesn't either care about.

That is true. The more you study the history of the Church, the clearer that will become. And it's not just a matter of style, but of substance. One of Orthodoxy's big problems with the Roman Catholic Church is that its thinking has been contaminated by Platonism, which attempts to impose rationality on many ideas that are just not rational--their truth is too profound to be reduced to terms man can easily understand. The Orthodox accept, and respect, that. One side effect of legality is to make Christianity appear to be illogical, infantile and cruel, which puts people off. Orthodoxy is much more open to doubt, mystery, and metaphor and, consequently, appeals more to the thinking person.

So, no, it's not just a question of crossing left or crossing right. I would go so far as to say that anyone who converts, or returns, to the Roman Catholic Church after having been Orthodox has not been properly catechized; they have never truly understood the significant differences between the two churches and all that it implies. Both churches may share 90% of their theology, but they emphasize different things--and that emphasis is crucial. That emphasis is a whole way of looking at life and of looking at God.

And Poppy is incorrect: the Roman Catholic Church has diverged most from the original, not the Orthodox. Read up on your Church history.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 10:14:09 PM by sainthieu » Logged
Xenia1918
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 10:48:41 PM »

I have also thought that perhaps it was definitely the will of God that my mother made that comment to me. Its interesting that I recalled it after all these years, and never forgot it. My mother, may she rest in peace, was not the most theologically intellectual person; she was very simple in her religious thinking in many ways...even more shocking to me (knowing what I now do about Orthodoxy) that she would know enough to even say "the Orthodox are the original church".

As for whether or not she died as a Christian, I can't be sure but something tells me she did. I took care of her for the last year of her life, and the last week of her life she spent here in my home in hospice care, terminally ill. I awoke on Palm Sunday 2008 to a movie about St Joan of Arc on the TV. The part I awoke to was where they were telling Joan she could not receive the Sacraments because she was being burned as a heretic. It suddenly flashed through my mind that Roman Catholics (what my mother was baptized as, even if not practicing anymore) have a fear of dying without the Last Rites. Now, remember that I was a practicing Orthodox Jew at the time, which made this even weirder...but I went to the phone book, looked up the local RC parish, and asked a priest to come. Although it was Palm Sunday (something I didn't realize at the time), he arrived in 15 minutes.

He anointed my mother (who was unconscious), prayed over her, and left. She died the next morning. To this day I don't know what was really going on there, but an Orthodox friend of mine said that my mother's guardian angel "spoke" to me to enable her to die as a Christian.
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sainthieu
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2011, 11:53:54 PM »

...an Orthodox friend of mine said that my mother's guardian angel "spoke" to me to enable her to die as a Christian.

Without a doubt. Since becoming Orthodox, I've realized that God and His angels are much more frequently involved in our lives than I would ever have imagined.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 11:54:17 PM by sainthieu » Logged
Maria
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2011, 12:51:16 AM »

I have also thought that perhaps it was definitely the will of God that my mother made that comment to me. Its interesting that I recalled it after all these years, and never forgot it. My mother, may she rest in peace, was not the most theologically intellectual person; she was very simple in her religious thinking in many ways...even more shocking to me (knowing what I now do about Orthodoxy) that she would know enough to even say "the Orthodox are the original church".

As for whether or not she died as a Christian, I can't be sure but something tells me she did. I took care of her for the last year of her life, and the last week of her life she spent here in my home in hospice care, terminally ill. I awoke on Palm Sunday 2008 to a movie about St Joan of Arc on the TV. The part I awoke to was where they were telling Joan she could not receive the Sacraments because she was being burned as a heretic. It suddenly flashed through my mind that Roman Catholics (what my mother was baptized as, even if not practicing anymore) have a fear of dying without the Last Rites. Now, remember that I was a practicing Orthodox Jew at the time, which made this even weirder...but I went to the phone book, looked up the local RC parish, and asked a priest to come. Although it was Palm Sunday (something I didn't realize at the time), he arrived in 15 minutes.

He anointed my mother (who was unconscious), prayed over her, and left. She died the next morning. To this day I don't know what was really going on there, but an Orthodox friend of mine said that my mother's guardian angel "spoke" to me to enable her to die as a Christian.

Wow! That is awesome.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 12:52:18 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2011, 03:43:57 PM »

Just lovely.
Thank you for sharing this Xenia.
It brought tears to my eyes, so beautiful.

Sometimes the Mysteries are not mysteries at all.

Gypsy
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