Fasting and salary are off limits!!!

[Poppy]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

[katherineofdixie]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

Sorry, can you explain more - about fasting in particular? I'm not getting your point.

Also why is sending Christians to Christian counselors funny?

[Poppy]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

Sorry, can you explain more - about fasting in particular? I'm not getting your point.

Also why is sending Christians to Christian counselors funny?

Well everything seems to be part of the body, the church, we all need each other... kind of a thing, we got each others back. There is no one top person except God and Christ the head of the church. All of the church is equal to each other and we are all accountable to each other as a body. BUT dont ask me personal questions about things that matter like fasting and what i put my money to. Because that's way to close for my comfort and if you ask me that i will tell you its between me and my priest.

I want to know why?? How comes its off limits??

[John of the North]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

Sorry, can you explain more - about fasting in particular? I'm not getting your point.

Also why is sending Christians to Christian counselors funny?

Well everything seems to be part of the body, the church, we all need each other... kind of a thing, we got each others back. There is no one top person except God and Christ the head of the church. All of the church is equal to each other and we are all accountable to each other as a body. BUT dont ask me personal questions about things that matter like fasting and what i put my money to. Because that's way to close for my comfort and if you ask me that i will tell you its between me and my priest.

I want to know why?? How comes its off limits??

Because if you ask a person how they fast and they give you answer, then there is the danger that you will compare your self to that person. While the church is a hospital, the remedies for various sicknesses will be different. So each person will have a different prescription suited to their spiritual health. Some people will instructed to do many prostrations a day. For others, saying the Lord's prayer is enough of a struggle. In some monastic settings, some people will eat very little, maybe even only one meal a day. But if a person is still spiritually young, that will not be the best approach, they could easily fall into the trap of sin.

It is the same with giving monetarily to the church. If you see a rich person and know his tithe is small, you could fall into the trap of judging him.

[Poppy]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

Sorry, can you explain more - about fasting in particular? I'm not getting your point.

Also why is sending Christians to Christian counselors funny?

Well everything seems to be part of the body, the church, we all need each other... kind of a thing, we got each others back. There is no one top person except God and Christ the head of the church. All of the church is equal to each other and we are all accountable to each other as a body. BUT dont ask me personal questions about things that matter like fasting and what i put my money to. Because that's way to close for my comfort and if you ask me that i will tell you its between me and my priest.

I want to know why?? How comes its off limits??

Because if you ask a person how they fast and they give you answer, then there is the danger that you will compare your self to that person. While the church is a hospital, the remedies for various sicknesses will be different. So each person will have a different prescription suited to their spiritual health. Some people will instructed to do many prostrations a day. For others, saying the Lord's prayer is enough of a struggle. In some monastic settings, some people will eat very little, maybe even only one meal a day. But if a person is still spiritually young, that will not be the best approach, they could easily fall into the trap of sin.

It is the same with giving monetarily to the church. If you see a rich person and know his tithe is small, you could fall into the trap of judging him.

no i dont think i will accept that answer because you can compare about anything... praying and how long someone does it and how many times (openly talked about) things people do in the church... choir and reader etc.. (openly talked about as well) being celebrate (openly talked about) there is a tonne of things people can and DO compare themself with in others that are not private to stop people comparing...... money issues is uncomfortable thas why.

[orthonorm]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

Sorry, can you explain more - about fasting in particular? I'm not getting your point.

Also why is sending Christians to Christian counselors funny?

She is playing off a caustic remark I made in another thread, the one about head coverings.

[LizaSymonenko]

As for the fasting....you don't boast.  

On the days I fast, those around me (at work) often notice, and when they ask, I tell.  I give them the reasons behind it and what it all means.  However, I don't tell everyone I am fasting today - because that would look like I am boasting and saying I am better than they, because they aren't fasting.  This would be a sin of pride on my part, and might lead others to look askance upon me and my Faith because they might perceive me as being boastful and having a "better than Thou" attitude.  Therefore, if you are asked, you most definitely should explain, but, I don't recommend simply admitting it outright.  What would be the purpose?

Even if you do it within your Orthodox "family" you will still be perceived as boasting, even if you are not.  

As for someone's salary...why would you need to know how much money someone makes?  What's the difference?  Is it only to judge whether they are giving their "fair share" or what?

If that's the case, then it is not only one's salary you should be interested in, but, in their expenses, as well.  How large is their family, how healthy are they (because medical costs are high), are their kids going to a university, do they have a huge mortgage, etc.  Just because they bring home a paycheck, doesn't mean that all that money is not already slotted for a purpose.  Certainly everyone should give to the Church, but, again, the amount they give IS between them, their priest and the Lord - and nobody else.

[John of the North]

no i dont think i will accept that answer because you can compare about anything...

It doesn't matter if you accept or not. What matters is if it is accurate.

praying and how long someone does it and how many times (openly talked about)

In my nearly 4 years in the church, I have never seen personal prayer life compared in a group. No one sits around talking about such things.

things people do in the church... choir and reader etc.. (openly talked about as well)

This is public ministry.

being celebrate (openly talked about)

I have never been asked as a single man if I am celibate. I have never seen a married couple's sex life discussed in the church by a group or anyone else. While questions relating to celibacy may be asked on the forum here, they are, to my knowledge, rarely if ever discussed at coffee hour.

there is a tonne of things people can and DO compare themself with in others that are not private to stop people comparing...... money issues is uncomfortable thas why.

People shouldn't compare. Full stop. Whether they do or not, they shouldn't. There is a world of difference in discussing how one fasts (which is probably one of the most personally specific aspects of church life) and discussing such things as who is chanting/reading/altar serving etc.

[Poppy]

I'm not saying they should compare, i'm saying people do. Maybe not in coffee hour or in groups but inside there own self they do, it's natural that they would about anything in life. The topics are talked about in general openly and people mention their personal things they do as discussion plods along.

So saying that fasting and charity and stuff like that shouldn't be talked about openly because "there is the danger that you will compare your self to that person" don't make any sense to say that because ppl already DO compare about a tonne of other things.

[Poppy]

On the days I fast, those around me (at work) often notice, and when they ask, I tell.  I give them the reasons behind it and what it all means.  However, I don't tell everyone I am fasting today - because that would look like I am boasting and saying I am better than they, because they aren't fasting.  This would be a sin of pride on my part, and might lead others to look askance upon me and my Faith because they might perceive me as being boastful and having a "better than Thou" attitude.  Therefore, if you are asked, you most definitely should explain, but, I don't recommend simply admitting it outright.  What would be the purpose?

Exactly and what you explained is natural and chilled to say when your asked. Not walking about announcing it, but just casual when asked, no biggie. I agree with you totally.

But i read allot when ppl are asked that they say "well thats between me and my priest", which is why i did a thread about it because that seemed a weird answer to me.

[Poppy]

As for someone's salary...why would you need to know how much money someone makes?  What's the difference?  Is it only to judge whether they are giving their "fair share" or what?

If that's the case, then it is not only one's salary you should be interested in, but, in their expenses, as well.  How large is their family, how healthy are they (because medical costs are high), are their kids going to a university, do they have a huge mortgage, etc.  Just because they bring home a paycheck, doesn't mean that all that money is not already slotted for a purpose.  Certainly everyone should give to the Church, but, again, the amount they give IS between them, their priest and the Lord - and nobody else.

Ok  liza but why the difference in your position on casual telling about fasting but not about what you give your money to?? When that comes up ppl get defensive. Your question is why would you need to know....mine would be...why not??

Is it a generation thing that the middle generation don't like to say?? I mean me and my friends talk about are money and what we do with it and its never uncomfortable so, i am asking why and how come?? Not you particularly but in general as well.
______________________________

Ok a for instance..... we had a convo a few months back, some mates and me, about giving to charity and some did and some never would and all of us said what we thought and the people that did give wasn't down on the people who didn't, (i was one of the never would's).....we was more interested in each others reasons and debating are reasons. We all went out to the movies after so, nothing was a bad atmosphere.

[John of the North]

I'm not saying they should compare, i'm saying people do. Maybe not in coffee hour or in groups but inside there own self they do, it's natural that they would about anything in life. The topics are talked about in general openly and people mention their personal things they do as discussion plods along.

So saying that fasting and charity and stuff like that shouldn't be talked about openly because "there is the danger that you will compare your self to that person" don't make any sense to say that because ppl already DO compare about a tonne of other things.

Your argument makes no sense. You are saying that because we compare ourselves in other things, why not these things as well. For example, in Scripture it says regarding prayer: "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." - Matthew 6:5-6

We are specifically instructed in personal prayer to hide it away.

The chapter continues on fasting: "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." 6:16-18

Why does the Church have private confession?? Originally, confession was done publicly, in front of the church community. But the Church changed because it was decided that having public confession exposed people to temptation. So public confession is no longer what is practiced.

Once, some monks asked Abba Paisius of Nitria which virtue is the highest of all, and he replied, "Those which are done in secret, and about which no one knows."

There needs to be a distinction made between what people do and what people ought to do. People chatter in church, does that mean we should chatter in Church?? No. People sometimes dress immodestly in church, does that mean we all should?? No. Do compare themselves to each other?? Yes. Does that mean they should?? No.

[Poppy]

I like that the Orthodox church defines allot of things in the context of the body or the church. Like healing, sorting out right doctrine and some other important stuff. But all of a sudden things like fasting and where you spend your money and what on..... are between you and the priest?? haha..... well thas convenient given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith lolOl that made me laugh when i read that.

What is the problem with saying?? Isn't everyone accountable to each other in this as well?? The body/church and all that??

Yeah i know what your going to say but were not allowed to boast. Well then if someone asks you then don't say it in a boastfull way then. But you can still say huh?? Or is it that you dont want ppl to know because youd have to riggle round it??

Thas almost as funny as sending Christians off to Christian cousellors. I laughed when i read that one as well.

Sorry, can you explain more - about fasting in particular? I'm not getting your point.

Also why is sending Christians to Christian counselors funny?

She is playing off a caustic remark I made in another thread, the one about head coverings.

No "she" isn't and "she" has a name!!
and a life
why don't you go get one and stop following me around quoting me with your stupid assumptions. Like i even read your posts???

[Poppy]

JOhn from up north

Your argument makes no sense. You are saying that because we compare ourselves in other things, why not these things as well.

No that was your comment, your defense of not being openly chatty about these things "because there is the danger that you will compare yourself to that person" thas what you said. mine was that we shouldn't compare, but people do.
No worries, we're not understanding each other.

Thanks for the scriptures though, that was a help.

[GDan]

Why am i unsurprised that you have a warning already?
>_>
>.<

"given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith!" - What makes you think this?

[Poppy]

Why am i unsurprised that you have a warning already?
>_>
>.<

"given that those are two of the biggest tellers about if someone is serious or not in there faith!" - What makes you think this?

HA!! Your unsurprised because you know what i'm like when i come across mongs?? Umm lolOl IDK alls i will say is it wasn't all me!!! ^o^

Oh don't u start, i know where your going..... lolOl Just go and deal with your own topics haha..... maybe they're not "tellers" then maybe i just think religious people should be open about all of the way their faith affects their life. And YES before you say it back to me, i think they should more than the average person because they are carriers of the truth so i think that if someone can see your straigh up about things then they are more likely to trust what you say about God.

[katherineofdixie]

Your argument makes no sense. You are saying that because we compare ourselves in other things, why not these things as well. For example, in Scripture it says regarding prayer: "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." - Matthew 6:5-6

We are specifically instructed in personal prayer to hide it away.

The chapter continues on fasting: "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." 6:16-18

Why does the Church have private confession?? Originally, confession was done publicly, in front of the church community. But the Church changed because it was decided that having public confession exposed people to temptation. So public confession is no longer what is practiced.

Once, some monks asked Abba Paisius of Nitria which virtue is the highest of all, and he replied, "Those which are done in secret, and about which no one knows."

There needs to be a distinction made between what people do and what people ought to do. People chatter in church, does that mean we should chatter in Church?? No. People sometimes dress immodestly in church, does that mean we all should?? No. Do compare themselves to each other?? Yes. Does that mean they should?? No.

Poppy, I do think this was a pretty good answer to your question. The bottom line would be, and this applies to a lot of things, I think, do we do ___________ ? Should we do ___________? No.

A lot in Orthodoxy is the struggle, the dynamic tension between what we do and what we should be doing. This struggle is not necessarily a bad thing. Out of the struggle comes growth as a person and a Christian.

And I guess I take the crack about Christian counselors a little personally. Years ago my husband and I were going through a really bad patch in our marriage (I mean, really bad - divorce was definitely on the table.) It was really difficult to find a counselor to help us sort through it, because most counselors had no clue about the Christian context or understanding of marriage, much less the Orthodox understanding of marriage as a sacrament and a spiritual calling.

[joasia]

Poppy,

It's basically how comfortable we feel about discussing these subjects with that person: fasting and money, per your examples. With some people I do, with some I don't.  And with the same person, I may feel comfortable with one subject, but not the other.

[Poppy]

And I guess I take the crack about Christian counselors a little personally. Years ago my husband and I were going through a really bad patch in our marriage (I mean, really bad - divorce was definitely on the table.) It was really difficult to find a counselor to help us sort through it, because most counselors had no clue about the Christian context or understanding of marriage, much less the Orthodox understanding of marriage as a sacrament and a spiritual calling.

Ok im sorry i said it like i did because i wouldn't want to upset you. You been ok with me.

Let me explain it seriously and tell you personally why i don't like them seen as you have been open with me. I have seen a couple of them as i grew up, i had to, i didn't have no choice as a kid and then again when i was 16 i had to go to one as part of the youth offending program. I don't like that you get shoved off to the side where you are supposed to sort out all your issues that OTHER PEOPLE feel are messy....and then you get allowed back into society again without your messy issues getting in other peoples faces. Messy issues are apart of life, like death and adhd (which they drug kids up for and i hate that as well) and depression and divorce and addiction and all kinds of things that get in the way of people going about their business, well tough...i tell people. If it makes you feel uncomfortable then deal with it. Skanky people on busses and sleeping in doorways covered in pee and alcohol and imigrants that have nothing but some holey shoes and skanky clothes they got from a junk shop or some charity center. I hate it that there marginalised and treated bad by others. Given special groups to go to and so the majority of society can be like.... oh good they have their group to go to.... phew i dont have to deal with them.

Ok about your particular situation. First off, im sorry you went through that rough time with your hub. I haven't loved someone like that so i don't even know what that would be like but i can think it would be gutrenchingly painfull and i am seriously happy you got someone to help you sort it. I know counsellors can help people sometimes but i just think their job exists because of a disconnected society who dont take responsibility and get involved with each other properly because they can't be arsed, its to difficult and time conssuming and when you give time to people who have a mess in there lifes then it is draining as well. So its one of my things i hate Katherine its not personal. Im glad your sorted seriosly i am rli glad.

[katherineofdixie]

I know counsellors can help people sometimes but i just think their job exists because of a disconnected society who dont take responsibility and get involved with each other properly because they can't be arsed, its to difficult and time conssuming and when you give time to people who have a mess in there lifes then it is draining as well.

And I totally agree with you on this.

But when you're drowning, you know, going down for the last time, you'll grab onto anything that looks like it might help you save yourself.

[Poppy]

I know counsellors can help people sometimes but i just think their job exists because of a disconnected society who dont take responsibility and get involved with each other properly because they can't be arsed, its to difficult and time conssuming and when you give time to people who have a mess in there lifes then it is draining as well.

And I totally agree with you on this.

But when you're drowning, you know, going down for the last time, you'll grab onto anything that looks like it might help you save yourself.

I get you.
Popps

[orthonorm]

Since I started this thread, here is the point I was making elsewhere:

People are arguing over "obvious" acts of piety: head dressings.

But when it comes to fasting and money, mum's the word.

RE: Fasting

People do talk about it. People publish cookbooks about it. And of course here I am talking about fasting from food. I think within the "family" (a parish) such issues are healthy to discuss. Consigning oneself to the often general pastoral guidelines for many who attend parishes where the Priest has little time for face to face counseling on such matters and many of the folks in the parish are converts, not discussing such matters can lead to problems.

We discuss openly here about fasting. Not to the degree we do it, but nevertheless we do discuss it, which I think is helpful.

Since I was a competitive athlete in a variety of sports where weight was a factor and had to conform to an often strict diet, whether under- / over-eating to make weight, the food issues ain't no big deal. It also helps that I grew up poor and in the country for a large part of my life. Food was often scarce, work was hard, and we ate just about anything you can imagine. Being hungry ain't no big deal to me. And I don't neurotic hang-ups on food like many Americans.

So, although I am a mere catechumen, I have practical knowledge on how to manage quick and possible large changes in diet. This has been helpful for more than a few people who are Orthodox.

(But as I write this I've been suffering severe abdominal pain, so perhaps I am full it, literally).

RE: Money / Stewardship

Some people know me in RL and more and more folks are getting to know who I am and the parish I attend, thus I say the following in hope that it is helpful and not harmful.

The parish I attend has some 100+ registered families I believe. It is also a rather affluent congregation. The first fiscal discussion I attended, when I look at the budget for the year, I thought for sure there was a typo and a zero was omitted at the end of the yearly expenditures.

A man who serves the diocese our parish is in on matters financial was at the meeting. My Priest soft-sells pastorally typically. Well this fellow stood up and made clear that the parish was operating on a shoe-string budget of which the great majority was from fewer than 12 families and trusts from reposed parishioners and of those 12, something like 8 were couples over the age of 55.

That is dangerous. He exhorted clearly that many of the parish families could and should be giving more. He made some very pointed comments. I was impressed and thought it was entirely appropriate. Many others were not.

So, I think there is room for frank discussion about how much of our incomes we give to our parishes. People send their kids to schools they cannot enter via scholarship and pay their tuition, drive new cars every four years, take vacations during the summer rather during the seasons of Lent and Nativity when help around the parish is need very much.

But when you have a confluence of immigrants who are not used to giving much to the parish and white middle to upper middle class Midwesterners who find talking about such matters to be impolite and his behind the Scriptural passages on "charity", it can kill a parish over time.

The discussion of finances within a parish is not discussing charity.

As are discussions of time spent helping out at the parish. When stuff needs to be done, it seems like many organizations 5% are doing 90% of the work. Since I can't give much in the way of finances and am not married not have kids, I can basically live at the parish if the need be. I made this clear to my Priest and made certain that he and others in charge of other ministries can basically call on me at any time. This was not boasting but a simple statement of fact. Just like I explain my possible contributions to my employer, I see no difference in having such clear and direct discussions with parish family. Families have exactly these sorta talks.

So we mustn't reduce stewardship to just wealth.

(As I write this, interestingly I just received a parish email about educating the parish more clearly on points of stewardship.)

RE: Charity

A fellow comes to our parish whose fiancee is Orthodox. In the catechumen class, he mentioned that his "home style" of church they frequently allot $4 / day to eat on and give the balance what they normally spend to charities in the community.

A few folks were taken back by this by their body language. He was not boasting. He was interested how integrated as a community a typical Orthodox parish is on how they conduct their lives. His point was well taken by me and real food for thought.

I see no reason why a circle of folks if not an entire parish can make such decisions and support each other with love and work together.

RE: Such questions by newbies here

I think many folks who ask about such matters here are in situations where they might be shy to ask their Priest, if that is the case, then they should be encouraged to discuss the matter with their Priest. But some folks here truly have a hard time getting face time, in that case, why not be open about one's behavior?

The earliest Christian were quite open as well know, even with their confessions. Over time this has changed, but I think their is room for open and humble discussion of matters practical to health and longevity of our parishes and our own practical "spiritual practices". After all, many give advice here to newbies on a prayer rule . . .

I recently received some excellent advice on praying for the reposed non-Orthodox. And many here have concretely enriched my day to day practice in threads and in PMs by being open about their lives.

And let's remember St. Paul when he gives his bona fides, he mentions his "spiritual" experience to say he ought not boast of it (I crack up every time I read it) and then goes on to mention the litany of sufferings he had gone under to prove his authority. Was he boasting?

In short, I think piety is used to avoid difficult discussions, while at other times to beat other discussions to death.

FWIW.
 

[Poppy]

Since I started this thread, here is the point I was making elsewhere:


FWIW.

YOU DIDN'T START THIS THREAD!!! I already corrected you on that so now your calling me a liar??

FWIW.... NOTHING, that's what your words are worth nothing because you have got no code so all your words are worth nothing.

All you got to do with yourself is follow me round and comment on my stuff when i asked you to stay out my face which is EASY for you to do on a forum this size.... and you don't. You quote me..... make comments purposfully to wind me up which you wouldnt do if you was face to face with me because you can only do it because your anon behind your computer...... allot of ppl LIKE YOU are like that.

[IsmiLiora]

^ Poppy, and I mean this in the best way possible, I know that you two have been back and forth on various threads. However, he did just write you a long post that has a LOT of useful real-life information about the topic, what's actually happening in churches in the U.S.

We all get snippy at others on this board (I am very guilty of that myself) but everyone has valuable questions and contributions, including yourself, and I wouldn't throw that out the window, no matter how much I argued with a poster. I'm just saying.

[Poppy]

^ Poppy, and I mean this in the best way possible, I know that you two have been back and forth on various threads. However, he did just write you a long post that has a LOT of useful real-life information about the topic, what's actually happening in churches in the U.S.

We all get snippy at others on this board (I am very guilty of that myself) but everyone has valuable questions and contributions, including yourself, and I wouldn't throw that out the window, no matter how much I argued with a poster. I'm just saying.

Fine and your entitled to your opinion IsmiLiora which i accept that but i got no interest in anything someone has to say if they cant apolagise when they are out of order. Also if you ask them to stay out your face and they dont. That tells you all you need to know about them. He might have good points and big words but, he also lies. So no im not intrested. He might be subtle in doing it and i am more BAM out with it..... but just because he is more subtle and thinks hes clever, hes not. Ppl can see what hes doing if there honest.

[Schultz]

Poppy, if I may be so bold, the best thing you can do is ignore him. 

It's actually quite easy.  I ignore most of our posters here most of the time.

[genesisone]

Ppl can see what hes doing if there honest.

Poppy, I know I'm not quite old enough to be believed just because I'm old  , but if you really believe that what you say is true in the sentence I quoted, it's best to not draw attention to yourself at this point. Sometimes silence is the loudest we can be.

[IsmiLiora]

I was just talking about this specific post, but okay, you are entitled to your opinion too!

[LizaSymonenko]

As for someone's salary...why would you need to know how much money someone makes?  What's the difference?  Is it only to judge whether they are giving their "fair share" or what?

If that's the case, then it is not only one's salary you should be interested in, but, in their expenses, as well.  How large is their family, how healthy are they (because medical costs are high), are their kids going to a university, do they have a huge mortgage, etc.  Just because they bring home a paycheck, doesn't mean that all that money is not already slotted for a purpose.  Certainly everyone should give to the Church, but, again, the amount they give IS between them, their priest and the Lord - and nobody else.

Ok  liza but why the difference in your position on casual telling about fasting but not about what you give your money to?? When that comes up ppl get defensive. Your question is why would you need to know....mine would be...why not??

Is it a generation thing that the middle generation don't like to say?? I mean me and my friends talk about are money and what we do with it and its never uncomfortable so, i am asking why and how come?? Not you particularly but in general as well.
______________________________

Ok a for instance..... we had a convo a few months back, some mates and me, about giving to charity and some did and some never would and all of us said what we thought and the people that did give wasn't down on the people who didn't, (i was one of the never would's).....we was more interested in each others reasons and debating are reasons. We all went out to the movies after so, nothing was a bad atmosphere.

So, I am just curious.  If not to judge others/or yourself, why would you need to know how much money anyone makes?  What's the reasoning behind the interest.  I'm seriously curious.

We don't talk salary at work because it's company policy.  Nobody is know how much you make, lest you make more/less and start an issue. 

I never ask my friends how much they make.  It never has interested me.  When I see they need help, I try to help, but, it's hardly any of my concern how much is in their bank account.

It is for us to keep track of our own finances, and to give freely of them.  For nothing that is ours, is ours due to any of our own doing.  It is ours because God deems it so.

So, I am just curious why it would be important to know how much money someone else has.

[orthonorm]

Poppy, if I may be so bold, the best thing you can do is ignore him. 

It's actually quite easy.  I ignore most of our posters here most of the time.

//:=(

[LizaSymonenko]

Oh, don't take it personally!  He ignores me, all the time!   

[orthonorm]

I know that you two have been back and forth on various threads.

I think I would describe it as forth and forth. //:=)

[vamrat]

I love the smell of flame wars in the morning.  It smells like...stagnation.

[Schultz]

Poppy, if I may be so bold, the best thing you can do is ignore him. 

It's actually quite easy.  I ignore most of our posters here most of the time.

//:=(

Nothing personal, I quite like your posts. 

I was just doling out some general advice.

[Poppy]

Dont you think i have tried to ignore him??? I dont think you relise JUST how restrained i am being and THATS taking ALL of my ADHD and dyslexic energy as it is!!!!!

Harassment is a serious issue!!!!! and i might feel intimidated as well !!!!

Fine laugh it up ppl
I have no friends on my side like he obviosley does with you all

______________________________________________

LizaSymonenko.......
So, I am just curious.  If not to judge others/or yourself, why would you need to know how much money anyone makes?  What's the reasoning behind the interest.  I'm seriously curious.

We don't talk salary at work because it's company policy.  Nobody is know how much you make, lest you make more/less and start an issue.

I never ask my friends how much they make.  It never has interested me.  When I see they need help, I try to help, but, it's hardly any of my concern how much is in their bank account.

It is for us to keep track of our own finances, and to give freely of them.  For nothing that is ours, is ours due to any of our own doing.  It is ours because God deems it so.

So, I am just curious why it would be important to know how much money someone else has.

Ok, i don't want to know how much salary someone has, im not interested rli. I dont know how much my mates earn unless it comes up in a convo naturally. But the thing is, none of them would be like.... oh that's private to me only. Nor would i. When we discussed the charity people who come round the doors collecting, we discussed whether we would give money to them and if so why or why not. Then we got on to how much and what people generally did with their money, it was a natural discussion and nobody was like...I don't want to say.... or i don't want you all to know what i do with my money. It's no different from discussing what we all do with our time or food or how many shoes we got!!! lolOl shoes...... even the word sounds nice haha... actually the word accessories sounds even better!!!!!!!!

Dont you get a bit suspicious when ppl are secretive about stuff Lisa?? I do. I wonder what reason they are being clset about a topic for. Like sometimes i will say that something is none of someone elses business but its rare and i usually have a proper reason. If the reason is in the bible as you have to keep it a secret then..... thas fine, no worries.

[LizaSymonenko]

Well, now you are asking a different question - what do people do with their money?  That's all together differnt from how much money they have.

Let's see:  Some of it goes to the Church, lots goes to putting food on the table, medical bills/prescriptions for mom take up a bit, I usually don't spend much on shoes - I got to Payless.  :-)  I have spent a bit on shiny earrings once....just because they were shiny.  

There's the electric bill, water bill and gas bill.  Gasoline for the car.  Ink for the printer.  Paper, pens, envelopes, etc.

Just yesterday in the store where I went to buy a tall votive to place before my icon at home, a young boy came up and asked me for a $1.  I looked at him and he seemed a nice boy...if apparently penniless at the moment.  I gave him $5.  I think he wanted to go buy a piece of pizza which was exactly $1.  He asked me if I wanted the change back.  How nice was that?  I told him to keep it, just not to do anything stupid...and his answer was "Lady, how stupid can I get with $4?"  

[katherineofdixie]

Ok, i don't want to know how much salary someone has, im not interested rli. I dont know how much my mates earn unless it comes up in a convo naturally. But the thing is, none of them would be like.... oh that's private to me only. Nor would i. When we discussed the charity people who come round the doors collecting, we discussed whether we would give money to them and if so why or why not. Then we got on to how much and what people generally did with their money, it was a natural discussion and nobody was like...I don't want to say.... or i don't want you all to know what i do with my money. It's no different from discussing what we all do with our time or food or how many shoes we got!!! lolOl shoes...... even the word sounds nice haha... actually the word accessories sounds even better!!!!!!!!

And I wouldn't have a problem discussing this with my "mates" - with whom I would presumably have a level of friendship and trust. I would not necessarily discuss the same topics with the same level of trust on this forum. I love you guys, but I don't really know you nor you me.

There is also a Biblical precedent for doing good or giving to charity without making a big deal out of it to others.

[Poppy]

LizaSymonenko ......Well, now you are asking a different question - what do people do with their money?

haha.... i don't know what you were reading but i was never asking how much ppl make 

katherineofdixie .....There is also a Biblical precedent for doing good or giving to charity without making a big deal out of it to others.

Yeah thats coming through loud and clear now 

[orthonorm]

I love the smell of flame wars in the morning.  It smells like...stagnation.

Cue Wagner? This comment is //:=) approved.

[orthonorm]

Nothing personal, I quite like your posts. 

I was just doling out some general advice.

Oh I know. It just made our favorite Austrian, I mean, German sad . . .

[Poppy]

keep it up mr

i know you want to get me banned thas why your trying your best to wind me up and pretend that your posts are all innocent to your lil mod buddies

it all quiets down and then you FLAME the situation again by keep posting OFF TOPIC stuff and stupid comments

and you get away with your disonesty

like you obviously dont care about me learning about God or you would stop because your really putting me off being here

His "lil mod buddies"? We let orthonorm get away with his "dishonesty"? Haven't you been warned before that we don't permit public criticism of moderatorial actions on this forum? Yes, the insinuation that we're playing favorites and ganging up with orthonorm against you IS a criticism of our decision to not take action against him, and your receipt of this warning is a recognition of your continued disrespect of the work we have to do here as moderators and of the authority we have to perform that work.

Seeing how you've been so incredibly defensive and hostile the last couple of days, I'm giving you a month to learn how to handle conflict on this forum without resorting to such puerile and combative measures. To facilitate your work of personal reflection, you are now on post moderation for the next 31 days. During your moderation you will still be allowed to post here, but every one of your posts will need to be screened by a moderator before it will appear on the forum. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it to Veniamin via private message (and only via private message).

- PeterTheAleut

[Poppy]

sorry. your right, that was disrespectfull to the mods

[Quinault]

  I told him to keep it, just not to do anything stupid...and his answer was "Lady, how stupid can I get with $4?" 

If I had been there I would have cracked up and given him another $10!

[PeterTheAleut]

Well, now you are asking a different question - what do people do with their money?  That's all together differnt from how much money they have.

Let's see:  Some of it goes to the Church, lots goes to putting food on the table, medical bills/prescriptions for mom take up a bit, I usually don't spend much on shoes - I got to Payless.  :-)  I have spent a bit on shiny earrings once....just because they were shiny.  

There's the electric bill, water bill and gas bill.  Gasoline for the car.  Ink for the printer.  Paper, pens, envelopes, etc.

Just yesterday in the store where I went to buy a tall votive to place before my icon at home, a young boy came up and asked me for a $1.  I looked at him and he seemed a nice boy...if apparently penniless at the moment.  I gave him $5.  I think he wanted to go buy a piece of pizza which was exactly $1.  He asked me if I wanted the change back.  How nice was that?  I told him to keep it, just not to do anything stupid...and his answer was "Lady, how stupid can I get with $4?"  

I suppose he could blow his thumb off with a cheap firecracker.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Convert Issues (Moderator: Thomas) > Topic: Fasting and salary are off limits!!!