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Author Topic: Where are all the Catholics?  (Read 1294 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: June 30, 2011, 12:04:53 PM »

Despite what you always hear about Catholics being "ecumenical", there don't seem to be very many of us who are actually interested in talking with Orthodox.
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 12:19:33 PM »

Hm, good question -- it seems like they're all over at the CA forum.  But even over there it seems as if most Catholics come across as "You're wrong, regardless".. although I have met some very thoughtful and enlightening Catholic posters there willing to engage we Orthodox. 
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 01:22:27 PM »

Hm, good question -- it seems like they're all over at the CA forum.  But even over there it seems as if most Catholics come across as "You're wrong, regardless".. although I have met some very thoughtful and enlightening Catholic posters there willing to engage we Orthodox. 


I think you'll find the "You're wrong, regardless" attitude among every group. It is hardly something unique to Catholics.
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 01:43:45 PM »

Hm, good question -- it seems like they're all over at the CA forum.  But even over there it seems as if most Catholics come across as "You're wrong, regardless".. although I have met some very thoughtful and enlightening Catholic posters there willing to engage we Orthodox. 


I think you'll find the "You're wrong, regardless" attitude among every group. It is hardly something unique to Catholics.
True. It seems to be almost a defining characteristic of the Netodox.
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 09:49:52 AM »

Most Catholics don't care about what the church did 50 years ago.  It then comes as no surprise that they don't care what the church did 1000 years ago. 

Most Catholics I know, even holy and prayerful people, could care less about the Orthodox.  There's the attitude of "we're essentially the same, and that's all I really want or need to know."  Which isn't the case.  And I don't blame them or anyone else, it is just an observation.

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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 10:53:49 AM »

Most Catholics don't care about what the church did 50 years ago.  It then comes as no surprise that they don't care what the church did 1000 years ago. 

Makes sense. I've noticed that, out of Catholics who are here, a disproportionately highly percentage of us are traditional Catholics.
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 11:30:58 AM »

Most Catholics don't care about what the church did 50 years ago.  It then comes as no surprise that they don't care what the church did 1000 years ago. 

Makes sense. I've noticed that, out of Catholics who are here, a disproportionately highly percentage of us are traditional Catholics.

Yes.  However much we might disagree on some particulars. 

The same could be said for most of the active Orthodox on this Forum.  Those who have some seasoning years in the faith, I mean.
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 12:33:55 PM »

Despite what you always hear about Catholics being "ecumenical", there don't seem to be very many of us who are actually interested in talking with Orthodox.
"All the lonely Catholics. Where do they all come from?" :p

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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 01:36:10 PM »

Where have all the Catholics gone, long time passing?

Where have all the Catholics gone, long, long ago?
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 03:43:47 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 03:56:08 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 04:48:33 PM »

I suppose if we were to discuss the differences between Catholic and Orthodox teaching, that would require another thread.  I like Mardukm he was one of the exceptionally intelligent people I could actually talk to on CAF.  Most of the others didn't have an intricate understanding of Eastern theology, the way he seemed to..

I agree though, that much of our differences with the Catholics are due to Augustinian influence and a language barrier.  When people started confusing Ceasar, with Cicero.. you know there's a problem. 
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2011, 04:52:49 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.
Since he embraces the same idiosyncretic teachings of your misty and nebulous "Catholic" church, and I don't venture outside the contingent universe, I can see how you would think so, given that you both labor under the mistaken notion that if only we Orthodox knew what the Vatican taught, we would rush to sign on the dotted line of the latest union scheme.  

We do know what the Vatican really teaches. That's why we remain Orthodox.
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.
Since he embraces the same idiosyncretic teachings of your misty and nebulous "Catholic" church, and I don't venture outside the contingent universe, I can see how you would think so, given that you both labor under the mistaken notion that if only we Orthodox knew what the Vatican taught, we would rush to sign on the dotted line of the latest union scheme.  

We do know what the Vatican really teaches. That's why we remain Orthodox.

From what I've seen of it, you haven't got much to offer by way of accuracy...much less charity.

All you have is bravado and you say what your co-coreligionists want to hear.
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2011, 05:24:32 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.
Since he embraces the same idiosyncretic teachings of your misty and nebulous "Catholic" church, and I don't venture outside the contingent universe, I can see how you would think so, given that you both labor under the mistaken notion that if only we Orthodox knew what the Vatican taught, we would rush to sign on the dotted line of the latest union scheme.  

We do know what the Vatican really teaches. That's why we remain Orthodox.

From what I've seen of it, you haven't got much to offer by way of accuracy...much less charity.

All you have is bravado and you say what your co-coreligionists want to hear.
and what you don't want to hear, especially the words of your own magisterium baked in crow pie.

As for accuracy, I provide plenty of citations, links and sources, and a map or two: anyone can look it up for themselves.

As for charity, when one persists in denying the obvious, the sledgehammer becomes the very instrument of charity.
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2011, 05:26:39 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Dzheremi sounds like a wise fellow. I took the liberty of looking up his post:

Quote from: dzheremi
The topic of the thread is not "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying". It is "Do the Orthodox want communion with Rome".

In another thread it is was basically acknowledged (here) that Rome's doctrinal claims and its supposed orthodoxy are essentially independent in your mind for purposes of argument, so why is it now necessary to prove Rome's unorthodoxy with reference to those same claims? If Rome's positions can be understood, but the supposed orthodoxy of those claims rejected, then why do you keep up this charade?

To recap: Union with Rome is not a goal in and of itself such that it is desired in the absence of a shared faith that would sustain that union. So long as the Orthodox remain unconvinced of Rome's supposed orthodoxy, it is just not happening. Not coincidentally, that period of time is exactly as long as Rome insists upon the acceptability and necessity of the particular doctrines that separate it from Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2011, 09:34:20 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.
Since he embraces the same idiosyncretic teachings of your misty and nebulous "Catholic" church, and I don't venture outside the contingent universe, I can see how you would think so, given that you both labor under the mistaken notion that if only we Orthodox knew what the Vatican taught, we would rush to sign on the dotted line of the latest union scheme.  

We do know what the Vatican really teaches. That's why we remain Orthodox.

From what I've seen of it, you haven't got much to offer by way of accuracy...much less charity.

All you have is bravado and you say what your co-coreligionists want to hear.
and what you don't want to hear, especially the words of your own magisterium baked in crow pie.

As for accuracy, I provide plenty of citations, links and sources, and a map or two: anyone can look it up for themselves.

As for charity, when one persists in denying the obvious, the sledgehammer becomes the very instrument of charity.

The Converts and Faith section of this Forum are FILLED with EXPLANATIONS of the less-than-obvious teachings of Orthodoxy.   

Theology and the language used from place to place and time to time requires explanation.

Very often you have nothing to offer but chunks of text that require understanding and explanation.  You may be able to provide explanations for Orthodox teaching, I don't read enough of those sections to know, but you are absolutely incapable of presenting the meaning in Catholic teaching [the Church of my baptism].   You understand so little that you rely almost exclusively on simply cutting and pasting texts that require the same kind of explanations that Orthodox teachings require.  Rarely do you ever discuss any of it.  You can't.

So you teach nothing and understand little about my faith.  Only enough to keep your coreligionists happy...which means you know a great deal about distortions of the teachings of my Church, and how to feed them!!

M.
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2011, 09:37:11 PM »

Well, I first joined this forum in 2006 because I was interested in ecumenical sort of stuff with the EO Church---which I seriously thought about joining.

I know there are some good Catholic fora out there, like Fisheaters, Catholic-convert.org, Catholic Answers, etc., but they are just too big. And I've been here a while, I know the people, I can manage it here without using up countless hours of my time, and I'm just comfortable here.

And I still love Orthodoxy, despite the occasional rough experience I've had here, and I'm happy to stay.
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2011, 09:57:35 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.

I've seen Mardukm challenged time and time and time again on CAF by his fellow Catholics who find his writings a little zany.
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2011, 11:53:34 PM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.

I've seen Mardukm challenged time and time and time again on CAF by his fellow Catholics who find his writings a little zany.

Thank you for saying that Father. In my opinion, the approach that I've seen in reading Mardukm's posts (I have not, of course, read every single thing he's ever posted) is no more acceptable to traditional Catholics than it is to Eastern Orthodox.

See this post, and this post which came shortly after the other one. (BTW, the CAF mods gave me a 15-point infraction for that latter post -- granted, that's a little off topic, but it illustrates that it happens to Catholic posters as well as Orthodox ones.)
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2011, 12:30:22 AM »

Well I know Mardukm has stayed in safer grounds, like Byzcath and especially CAF, where it can't be challenged so much on his idiosyncretic views.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=8049613#post8049613

As Dzheremi characterized it "Entertain Mardukm in his never-ending quest to prove that all disagreements with Rome are the result of non-Roman misunderstandings of what Rome is really saying"

Much of it is.  Mardukm knows far more about Catholic teaching than you do for example.

M.
Since he embraces the same idiosyncretic teachings of your misty and nebulous "Catholic" church, and I don't venture outside the contingent universe, I can see how you would think so, given that you both labor under the mistaken notion that if only we Orthodox knew what the Vatican taught, we would rush to sign on the dotted line of the latest union scheme.  

We do know what the Vatican really teaches. That's why we remain Orthodox.

From what I've seen of it, you haven't got much to offer by way of accuracy...much less charity.

All you have is bravado and you say what your co-coreligionists want to hear.
and what you don't want to hear, especially the words of your own magisterium baked in crow pie.

As for accuracy, I provide plenty of citations, links and sources, and a map or two: anyone can look it up for themselves.

As for charity, when one persists in denying the obvious, the sledgehammer becomes the very instrument of charity.

The Converts and Faith section of this Forum are FILLED with EXPLANATIONS of the less-than-obvious teachings of Orthodoxy.
 
And?

Theology and the language used from place to place and time to time requires explanation.
And?

Very often you have nothing to offer but chunks of text that require understanding and explanation.
 
Which I often offer, line by line.

You may be able to provide explanations for Orthodox teaching, I don't read enough of those sections to know, but you are absolutely incapable of presenting the meaning in Catholic teaching [the Church of my baptism].

It's not that I can't mix the Kool Aid, it's that I won't. 

You understand so little that you rely almost exclusively on simply cutting and pasting texts that require the same kind of explanations that Orthodox teachings require.  Rarely do you ever discuss any of it.  You can't.
I do all the time, but often so little explanation is needed. Some things are just self evident.

So you teach nothing and understand little about my faith.
 
I understand plenty.  I just don't share your faith.

Only enough to keep your coreligionists happy...which means you know a great deal about distortions of the teachings of my Church, and how to feed them!!

M.
Orthodoxy is not just the distortion of Vatican teaching, if only it were just as simple as rectifying the errors in what the Vatican teaches to bring it back to Orthodox Rome!
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2011, 02:01:43 AM »

Most Catholics don't care about what the church did 50 years ago.  It then comes as no surprise that they don't care what the church did 1000 years ago. 

Most Catholics I know, even holy and prayerful people, could care less about the Orthodox.  There's the attitude of "we're essentially the same, and that's all I really want or need to know."  Which isn't the case.  And I don't blame them or anyone else, it is just an observation.



I think the "Were all the same" attitude is just an attempt to be ecumenical and get along.  Yet its sad that irregardless if we RC's hold to that view, we are still treated by some EO's with the same suspicion as if we held to the "were right, your wrong" opinion.  No one is trying to trivialize the issues that divide us, its just that there are those of us who thing that the things that unite RC's and EO's outway that which divides. 

Bottom line: in the words of Rodney King :Can't we all just get along?"
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2011, 02:18:57 AM »

If the RCC didn't exist, OC.net would have to invent it.
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2011, 08:34:42 AM »

There are many good Catholics out there, the trouble is with many is that they do not know or understand there faith.

They have been brought up to go to mass, and have never asked or learnt about there faith.

I personally am a Catholic, I know my faith, I know the history of the church and the changes in dogma, That is why I am looking into becoming orthodox.

what i am trying to say is that it is not that they don't care, more like they don't know and don't realise what has happened in the churches history.

We should pray that they will have there eyes opened and there hearts wanting.

Most Catholics don't care about what the church did 50 years ago.  It then comes as no surprise that they don't care what the church did 1000 years ago. 

Most Catholics I know, even holy and prayerful people, could care less about the Orthodox.  There's the attitude of "we're essentially the same, and that's all I really want or need to know."  Which isn't the case.  And I don't blame them or anyone else, it is just an observation.


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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2011, 09:22:05 AM »

Orthodoxy is not just the distortion of Vatican teaching, if only it were just as simple as rectifying the errors in what the Vatican teaches to bring it back to Orthodox Rome!

So hard to keep it straight isn't it. 

Not "JUST"...really?

I never said Orthodoxy is a distortion of the teaching of [my] the Catholic Church at all.

I said you and other Orthodox distort that teaching.  Quite a different thing.

Perhaps it is best that you continue to cut and paste.  Much safer.

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« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2011, 10:29:03 AM »

Orthodoxy is not just the distortion of Vatican teaching, if only it were just as simple as rectifying the errors in what the Vatican teaches to bring it back to Orthodox Rome!

So hard to keep it straight isn't it.
Not for those who have their heads on straight.
Not "JUST"...really?
yes, really.

I never said Orthodoxy is a distortion of the teaching of [my] the Catholic Church at all
No, that would be too straight forward, and the teaching of your (no brackets) Vatican's ecclesiastical community in trying to assimilate the Orthodox like the Borg doesn't have a track record for candor.

Reistance is not futile.

I said you and other Orthodox distort that teaching.  Quite a different thing.
And since you are wrong on both counts, what exactly is the difference?

Perhaps it is best that you continue to cut and paste.  Much safer.
Your aversion to documentation has long been duly noted. Although your supreme pontiff's statements ex cathedra are about as good as yours off the cuff, his has more authority in your ecclesiastical community.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 10:29:22 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2011, 11:19:08 AM »

Although your supreme pontiff's statements ex cathedra are about as good as yours off the cuff, his has more authority in your ecclesiastical community.


Since you cannot handle explanations, I would not expect you to grasp the meaning of the ex cathedra statements either.

Of course there are Orthodox believers who are insightful enough to realize that Orthodoxy "in black and white" without any explanation can be very confusing to those from outside or those who have not had much education in the faith.
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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2011, 11:43:38 AM »

Although your supreme pontiff's statements ex cathedra are about as good as yours off the cuff, his has more authority in your ecclesiastical community.


Since you cannot handle explanations,

I can handle excuses.  I just don't take excuses nor buy jesuitry.

I would not expect you to grasp the meaning of the ex cathedra statements either.
I understand them just fine.  I don't accept them,  a difference I know that you refuse to acknowledge.

Of course there are Orthodox believers who are insightful enough to realize that Orthodoxy "in black and white" without any explanation can be very confusing to those from outside or those who have not had much education in the faith.
Never said it couldn't be overwhelming, so your point?
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2011, 12:11:25 PM »

Of course there are Orthodox believers who are insightful enough to realize that Orthodoxy "in black and white" without any explanation can be very confusing to those from outside or those who have not had much education in the faith.

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom to a London lady who was bewailing,  "But there is so much to learn, too much for me, what should I do?"

"Madam," says the Metropolitan, "Be like a cow.... eat everything you can and produce good milk."
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