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Author Topic: 1 Corinthians 7:14 question.  (Read 2695 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seafra
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It's in the shelter of each other that people live

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« on: June 29, 2011, 12:13:21 PM »

So im curious about something. I am aware these verse is talking about those who are previously married and i understand because one is ORthodox the children are made holy by being able to be baptized and what now. My question is the unbelieveing spouse. The two are one flesh through the mystery of marriage and it even says you make your spouse holy, so how does this affect judgement day? Does it have any play on thier place in eternity? I am aware Orthodoxy believes that Marriage is eternal not confined to just this life.. Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2011, 02:10:35 PM »

I think it does have a "play" at where the unbelieving spouse spends eternity.

That spouse is not him/herself sanctified by the waters of baptism, chrismated with the Holy Spirit or partaking of the Eucharist, but the other one is. The other is united to Christ, and he/she is united to him/her that is united to Christ. They are of one flesh with an Orthodox Christian.

Now, that does not make the unbelieving spouse an Orthodox Christian, by no means, but it does mystically unite the spouse to the church in some way by the marital union, and certainly also ensures prayers for the unbelieving spouse from the believing one, and hopefully as well from the parish community and later on their hopefully believing children. We still must say "Lord, have mercy" for him/her and cannot act like he/she is a Christian, but we cannot take likely the unity of marriage into which he/she has entered with a servant of God.

...I hope that made sense.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 02:12:18 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 02:46:53 PM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 01:06:56 AM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?
I don't know, but I'd like some more expansion on this subject as well. I asked a similar question in another section on the forum. Also, I wanted to point out that I thought "Byzantine Catechumen Christianity" was way better than "Full-Gospel." Perhaps, I'm biased because I was but a Byzantine Catechumen Christianity myself once upon a day.

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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 01:16:47 AM »

But I am no longer catechumens because I gots the baptism.
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 08:22:36 AM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?

Jesus didn't when He spoke of the woman who had seven husbands.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 10:49:10 AM »

My question is the unbelieveing spouse. The two are one flesh through the mystery of marriage and it even says you make your spouse holy, so how does this affect judgement day? Does it have any play on thier place in eternity? I am aware Orthodoxy believes that Marriage is eternal not confined to just this life.. Thanks!

It seems that you are already familiar with what St. John Chrysostom and others have said regarding the meaning of this verse for the children of such a marriage, that children born of one believing and one unbelieving spouse should not be considered unclean or impure but should be brought to the waters of baptism.  Regarding the “sanctification” of the unbelieving spouse by the believing spouse, this seems to be a reference to potential rather than final realization; that the unbelieving spouse MAY be sanctified, MAY become a believer, MAY enter the waters of baptism, and MAY be saved by remaining married to a believing spouse.  The verse does not suggest that an unbeliever can be saved in their unbelief simply by remaining married to a believer, but the hope would be that the unbelieving spouse would become a believer prior to the Judgment and would be judged as a believer and not as an unbeliever. 

For more on this, you may be interested to read the following letter of St. Jerome to Laeta, the daughter of a believing mother and an unbelieving father. 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.v.CVII.html

Quote

St. Jerome to Laeta

The apostle Paul writing to the Corinthians and instructing in sacred discipline a church still untaught in Christ has among other commandments laid down also this: “The woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband; else were your children unclean but now are they holy.”  Should any person have supposed hitherto that the bonds of discipline are too far relaxed and that too great indulgence is conceded by the teacher, let him look at the house of your father, a man of the highest distinction and learning, but one still walking in darkness; and he will perceive as the result of the apostle’s counsel sweet fruit growing from a bitter stock and precious balsams exhaled from common canes. You yourself are the offspring of a mixed marriage; but the parents of Paula—you and my friend Toxotius—are both Christians. Who could have believed that to the heathen pontiff Albinus should be born—in answer to a mother’s vows—a Christian granddaughter; that a delighted grandfather should hear from the little one’s faltering lips Christ’s Alleluia, and that in his old age he should nurse in his bosom one of God’s own virgins? Our expectations have been fully gratified. The one unbeliever is sanctified by his holy and believing family. For, when a man is surrounded by a believing crowd of children and grandchildren, he is as good as a candidate for the faith. I for my part think that, had he possessed so many Christian kinsfolk when he was a young man, he might then have been brought to believe in Christ. For though he may spit upon my letter and laugh at it, and though he may call me a fool or a madman, his son-in-law did the same before he came to believe. Christians are not born but made.
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Seafra
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It's in the shelter of each other that people live

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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 05:40:58 PM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?
Quote from: orthodoxwiki
Marriage (also matrimony) is one of the holy mysteries or sacraments in the Orthodox Church, as well as many other Christian traditions. It serves to unite a woman and a man in eternal union before God with the purpose of following Christ and His Gospel and raising up a faithful, holy family through their holy union. It is referred to extensively in both the Old and New Testaments. Christ declared the essential indissolvibility of marriage in the Gospel.

In the sacrament of marriage, a man and a woman are given the possibility to become one spirit and one flesh in a way which no human love can provide by itself. In Christian marriage the Holy Spirit is given so that what is begun on earth does not “part in death” but is fulfilled and continues most perfectly in the Kingdom of God.
above from http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-sacraments/marriage

12th century Patriarch of Antioch, Theodore Balsamon "we believe and confess that the spouses are on account of the marriage, reckoned to be one humanity having more or less the same soul, which is perceived in two hypostases"

However, there is an earlier strand of interpretation, from the first centuries of the church, that some find intriguing. It suggests that there is a special meaning to the marriage bond that continues in heaven, though we can't know what it will be like. It is based on Paul's description of marriage in Ephesians 5:21-33, which concludes: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church."
Scriptures like the Ephesians passage, and Jesus' well-known teaching that "the two will become one flesh" (Mark 10:Cool, suggest that the marriage bond has a spiritual meaning different from that of most earthly relationships. If so, God may preserve that mysterious quality in heaven just as he seeks to do on earth. But we'll have to wait and see what form this relationship will take in eternity." From http://www.kyria.com/topics/spiritualformation/theologyspiritualissues/17.18.html

and finally in this book
http://books.google.pl/books?id=YSSCUO1tonkC&lpg=PA9&ots=5NYwzkso4N&dq=John%20Meyendorff%20Marriage%3A%20An%20Orthodox%20Perspective&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

i have heard it time and time again on Ancient faith radio sermons as well...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 05:41:49 PM by Seafra » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 06:45:46 PM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?

The great Larry David made hay with this one.
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It's in the shelter of each other that people live

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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 06:49:07 PM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?

The great Larry David made hay with this one.
please explain
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 07:02:28 PM »

Does Orthodoxy really teach that marriage is eternal?

Jesus didn't when He spoke of the woman who had seven husbands.

I believe St John Chrysostom interpreted the Lord's words the same way and said that the Church allows widows and widowers to marry again precisely because marriage is not eternal.
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 07:31:19 PM »

12th century Patriarch of Antioch, Theodore Balsamon "we believe and confess that the spouses are on account of the marriage, reckoned to be one humanity having more or less the same soul, which is perceived in two hypostases"
Whoah!  Something I can quote "Patriarch" Theodore on (not my favorite Church Father).
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It's in the shelter of each other that people live

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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 07:37:40 PM »

Personally never heard of him before that quote...
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Seafra
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It's in the shelter of each other that people live

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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 02:17:47 AM »

sorry guys gotta bring it up again I was pointed to a video series by a Fr. John Mack, I guess he is no longer Orthodox however i was advised by some on this site that his teachings on marriage are very Orthodox. Here again i am presented with marriage in Orthodoxy as being eternal... He says that by affirming marriage as a mystery St. Paul is calling it a sacrament, this the Church agrees with, he goes on to say as a sacrament and part of our salvation it will continue on in eternal life. He also quotes a John meyendorff?
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 03:14:48 AM »

12th century Patriarch of Antioch, Theodore Balsamon "we believe and confess that the spouses are on account of the marriage, reckoned to be one humanity having more or less the same soul, which is perceived in two hypostases"
Whoah!  Something I can quote "Patriarch" Theodore on (not my favorite Church Father).
Is he the guy who de-Syrofied the Syrian liturgy?
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It's in the shelter of each other that people live

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« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 03:17:04 AM »

oops nvm i thought you meant the guy i just posted :-p
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 03:27:32 AM by Seafra » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 11:24:16 AM »

I believe Fr. John Mack got forced out of the Orthodox Church. What is your question?
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 12:08:04 PM »

sorry guys gotta bring it up again I was pointed to a video series by a Fr. John Mack, I guess he is no longer Orthodox however i was advised by some on this site that his teachings on marriage are very Orthodox. Here again i am presented with marriage in Orthodoxy as being eternal... He says that by affirming marriage as a mystery St. Paul is calling it a sacrament, this the Church agrees with, he goes on to say as a sacrament and part of our salvation it will continue on in eternal life. He also quotes a John meyendorff?

Fwiw, some of the posts on this thread about marriages made in heaven might be of some interest to you. As for either marriages made in heaven or eternal marriages, there seems to be varying views.
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 01:00:23 PM »

again all i see if conflict, however it was refreshing to see the Coptic have an official stance, supposedly at least.
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 01:06:11 PM »

I believe Fr. John Mack got forced out of the Orthodox Church. What is your question?
my question was on the eternalness of Marriage. I think without a doubt if marriage is eternal it goes much further beyond what it is here,  I think the argument for Marriage as a sacrament is a strong argument for an eternal bond.
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2012, 07:05:38 AM »

Just finished "the life of St Colmcille" and came across this as well...

"A year afterwards when speaking to the same man, he said to him, "Do you remember the woman whose soul I saw a year ago ascending into heaven? I see her now coming to fetch the soul of her husband who is just dead. She is fighting with her prayers for that beloved soul against the powers of evil, and the angels are praying with her. See! she conquers, she bears him off, for he has led a good and upright life, and the two who loved each other so dearly on this earth are united for ever in the joy and glory of heaven."
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