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Author Topic: After a Fasting Season Should We Fast When the Feastday Comes?  (Read 1548 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: June 29, 2011, 12:46:04 AM »

I recall one Dormition that fell on a Wednesday, a priest said to fast another day, after fasting, to fast another day, i.e. fast two weeks to fast another day, with no feasting, was "just stupid."

Here we are (New Calendar), fasting for 2 weeks+, and the issue comes up again (and those on the Old Calendar need not insist that it would solve this issue: SS. Peter and Paul the Apostles falls on Wednesday and Fridays on the Old Calendar too, just not this year.  And next century-if, God forbid, the descrepency is allowed to continue-the Old Calendar with be exactly two weeks behind).

Any thoughts? Should the Feast be skipped?  Or the Fast set aside for it?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 12:47:25 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 12:54:32 AM »

We fast on Wednesdays and Fridays in memory of the betrayal and crucifixion of Christ our Lord and God.

On feast days, when the Dormition or Feast of the Apostles Peter and Paul falls on a Wednesday or Friday, I think we are allowed to modify it with the enjoyment of fish, olive oil, and wine.

Dispensations are not so easily given in Orthodoxy.

In the Old Calendar, the Apostles Fast will continue for 13 more days. New Calendar people have it easy.

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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 01:00:50 AM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 10:26:00 AM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.
LOL. Indeed!  Is that the Old Calendar being more Orthodox than the Orthodox?
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 10:27:49 AM »

We fast on Wednesdays and Fridays in memory of the betrayal and crucifixion of Christ our Lord and God.

On feast days, when the Dormition or Feast of the Apostles Peter and Paul falls on a Wednesday or Friday, I think we are allowed to modify it with the enjoyment of fish, olive oil, and wine.

Dispensations are not so easily given in Orthodoxy.

In the Old Calendar, the Apostles Fast will continue for 13 more days. New Calendar people have it easy.


13 less fasting days isn't the definition of "easy."
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 10:36:42 AM »

We fast on Wednesdays and Fridays in memory of the betrayal and crucifixion of Christ our Lord and God.

On feast days, when the Dormition or Feast of the Apostles Peter and Paul falls on a Wednesday or Friday, I think we are allowed to modify it with the enjoyment of fish, olive oil, and wine.

Dispensations are not so easily given in Orthodoxy.

In the Old Calendar, the Apostles Fast will continue for 13 more days. New Calendar people have it easy.



It's a fish day today, not just oil and wine.
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 11:19:17 AM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.
LOL. Indeed!  Is that the Old Calendar being more Orthodox than the Orthodox?
Don't forget, though: if Pascha ever gets reckoned from the Revised March 21, then the New Calendar Apostles' Fast will be just as long! The short fast exists only because of the hybrid calendar.
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 01:32:41 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 02:09:25 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.
LOL. Indeed!  Is that the Old Calendar being more Orthodox than the Orthodox?
Don't forget, though: if Pascha ever gets reckoned from the Revised March 21, then the New Calendar Apostles' Fast will be just as long! The short fast exists only because of the hybrid calendar.
Looking at the calculations, on the Revised Julian Calendar the earliest Pascha can fall is March 22, which would give a Apostles Fast of 42 days (btw, that is how long it is on the Gregorian Calendar used in Finnland and Estonia).  On the hybrid, longest it can be is 29 days.  On the Julian, the longest it is 42 days, but it will be 43 days in the next century.  So much for the lack of alleged lack of asceticism on the Gregorian calendar.
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 02:10:37 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
Great Lent is always 41 days.  At least for the Eastern Orthodox following the patristic calendar.

Still, rather odd for the Apostles Fast to be so long, longer than the Dorimtion or the Nativity fasts.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:14:07 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 03:13:08 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
Great Lent is always 41 days.  At least for the Eastern Orthodox following the patristic calendar.

Still, rather odd for the Apostles Fast to be so long, longer than the Dorimtion or the Nativity fasts.

I'd be interested in the origins of the Apostles Fast. To me, its the least liturgically-integrated fast. Actually, I know of no integration whatever. Lent has special services, Dormition has parakleses, even Advent can have parakleses. Does any church do anything special during the Apostles Fast?
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2011, 03:19:43 PM »

its my understanding that only feasts of the Lord will fully override a Wednesday or Friday fast.
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2011, 04:08:58 PM »

Correct:  the feasts of SS. Peter & Paul, and the Dormition of the Theotokos, are relaxed to allow fish, oil, and wine if they fall on Wednesday or Friday.
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2011, 04:11:01 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
Great Lent is always 41 days.  At least for the Eastern Orthodox following the patristic calendar.

Still, rather odd for the Apostles Fast to be so long, longer than the Dorimtion or the Nativity fasts.

What? If you are excluding Holy Week, Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, then it is 40 days = (5 7-day weeks (Mon-Sun) = 35) + 5 days in the sixth week (Mon-Fri). Where do you get the extra day from?

In any case, if we are talking about continuous periods of fasting, then the fast before Pascha is always the longest, and in general people think of the whole period from Clean Monday to Great Saturday as one continuous preparation for Pascha, even if liturgically Holy Week is reckoned separately.

And what is "odd" about it? Why should the Apostles' Fast be always shorter than the Dormition or Nativity Fasts?
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2011, 04:22:49 PM »

its my understanding that only feasts of the Lord will fully override a Wednesday or Friday fast.

Not all Dominical Feasts: the Feast of the Transfiguration always falls in the Dormition Fast, and traditionally fish and oil are eaten, but not meat or cheese. Palm Sunday allows fish and oil (according to some, only oil), but again, no meat or cheese. The Exaltation, of course, is always a fast day. Some consider the Meeting to be a Dominical Feast, and again, fish only if it falls on a fast day. Last year it actually fell on Clean Monday for old calendarists, and we used oil, but not fish.

Although it's not usually considered among the Great Feasts, Mid-Pentecost, which is always a Wednesday, allows fish; in our church we actually have a tradition of using cheese and eggs as well, but not meat. Likewise with the apodosis of Pascha.

The only Dominical Feasts I know of that actually call for a complete relaxation on Wed and Fri are Christmas and Theophany.

As Cymbyz noted, Great Feasts of the Theotokos also allow fish: Nativity, Entry, Meeting, Annunciation (unless during Holy Week), Dormition. Likewise SS Peter and Paul, and I think most would say the Nativity of the Forerunner as well. Also the Synaxis of the Forerunner (day after Theophany) allows fish.

I've seen Russian rules that are much more relaxed, with fish allowed on several other feast days, but this is not normal for the Greek church.
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 04:28:08 PM »

Back home, as far as I remember, nobody really kept St. Peter's fast, except that weddings were not held in it. It was a shared assumption that it was more of a monks' fast.
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 04:28:51 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
Great Lent is always 41 days.  At least for the Eastern Orthodox following the patristic calendar.

Still, rather odd for the Apostles Fast to be so long, longer than the Dorimtion or the Nativity fasts.

What? If you are excluding Holy Week, Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, then it is 40 days = (5 7-day weeks (Mon-Sun) = 35) + 5 days in the sixth week (Mon-Fri). Where do you get the extra day from?

In any case, if we are talking about continuous periods of fasting, then the fast before Pascha is always the longest, and in general people think of the whole period from Clean Monday to Great Saturday as one continuous preparation for Pascha, even if liturgically Holy Week is reckoned separately.

And what is "odd" about it? Why should the Apostles' Fast be always shorter than the Dormition or Nativity Fasts?
Because the Nativity and Dormition are Great Feasts and SS. Peter and Paul is not.
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 04:30:15 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
Great Lent is always 41 days.  At least for the Eastern Orthodox following the patristic calendar.

Still, rather odd for the Apostles Fast to be so long, longer than the Dorimtion or the Nativity fasts.

What? If you are excluding Holy Week, Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, then it is 40 days = (5 7-day weeks (Mon-Sun) = 35) + 5 days in the sixth week (Mon-Fri). Where do you get the extra day from?

In any case, if we are talking about continuous periods of fasting, then the fast before Pascha is always the longest, and in general people think of the whole period from Clean Monday to Great Saturday as one continuous preparation for Pascha, even if liturgically Holy Week is reckoned separately.

And what is "odd" about it? Why should the Apostles' Fast be always shorter than the Dormition or Nativity Fasts?
Because the Nativity and Dormition are Great Feasts and SS. Peter and Paul is not.

And I'm sure this point completely escaped the Church Fathers when they set about establishing the cycle of feasts and fasts. Thank God for ialmisry!
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 04:32:00 PM »

I think that's a bit odd that St. Peter's fast should sometimes be even longer than Lent.

Huh? Last year the Apostles' Fast was the longest possible for those following the patristic calendar, and it was 42 days. The Great Fast, if we include Holy Week together with the 40 days of Lent proper, always comes to 48 days.

48 > 42 Tongue
Great Lent is always 41 days.  At least for the Eastern Orthodox following the patristic calendar.

Still, rather odd for the Apostles Fast to be so long, longer than the Dorimtion or the Nativity fasts.

What? If you are excluding Holy Week, Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, then it is 40 days = (5 7-day weeks (Mon-Sun) = 35) + 5 days in the sixth week (Mon-Fri). Where do you get the extra day from?

In any case, if we are talking about continuous periods of fasting, then the fast before Pascha is always the longest, and in general people think of the whole period from Clean Monday to Great Saturday as one continuous preparation for Pascha, even if liturgically Holy Week is reckoned separately.

And what is "odd" about it? Why should the Apostles' Fast be always shorter than the Dormition or Nativity Fasts?
Because the Nativity and Dormition are Great Feasts and SS. Peter and Paul is not.

And I'm sure this point completely escaped the Church Fathers when they set about establishing the cycle of feasts and fasts. Thank God for ialmisry!
Thank God indeed!
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 04:37:45 PM »

Joking aside, I think there is evidence that the Feast of the Apostles holds quasi-Great Feast status, even if it is not reckoned among the twelve. For example, um, there's this fasting period established by tradition in order to prepare for it. Secondly, St Nicodemus' confessional notes that those under a canonical impediment should take Holy Water from the Great Blessing on the feast of the Apostles, and not, interestingly, on Dormition (I can't remember what his authorities for this are). Of course, I also know that there was a widespread custom of receiving Holy Communion on Dormition, so I'm not saying the Apostles are more important than the Dormition, but that it was considered an important enough feast that one should commune on it, or take holy water on it instead.

My own spiritual father insisted I take off work to attend liturgy on the Apostles' Feast, so at least he considers it that important, and his spiritual father was an Athonite monk.
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 04:37:57 PM »

It is a good thing about Orthodoxy that rules rarely, if ever, change but they are rarely, if ever, enforced, as well. I can live with this official "hypocrisy".
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 04:40:23 PM »

It is a good thing about Orthodoxy that rules rarely, if ever, change but they are rarely, if ever, enforced, as well. I can live with this official "hypocrisy".

As you should know by now, the Orthodox for "hypocrisy" is "economy". Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2011, 04:30:38 AM »

The short fast exists only because of the hybrid calendar.

And the no Apostles' Fast exists only because of the hydrid calendar as it was in 2002 or as it will be in 2013 Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2011, 08:03:02 AM »

Well, the feast fell on a Wednesday this year, and it allowed for fish, wine, and oil.  Now, to a monastic, this is as festal as it gets, since they don't eat meat.  That would be the equivalent of laity having a steak.

So, if you think about, you're really not fasting according to the monastic rule...it's a feast day, plain and simple.  Now, if you want to have a steak, and call it fish, I won't tell on you.
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2011, 11:23:18 AM »

in the coptic church, we don't fast on a feasting day, even if it falls on a wednesday or a friday.
but don't think we have it easy, we fast 55 days before Pascha!

we have lots of special hymns for the apostles' fast and feast, especially this one (my favourite)
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1099
which you can hear here:
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns%2FFasts%2FApostles%2FHigher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies%2F22.Asomen_To_Kirio.1320.mp3

we sing this song during Holy Communion throught the fast and on the apostles' feast.
the fast is a special time of repenting of sin and asking God to fill us with His Holy Spirit, and we have many sermons and stories about the apostles and the other saints and how we can work at our spiritual life and become more like them, through God's grace.

there are also people that say that the fast is only for the priest and his wife, but most people keep it at least to some extent (eg. some just give up meat but keep eating dairy).

happy (late for some of you) apostle's feast  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2011, 12:04:43 PM »

Looking at the calculations, on the Revised Julian Calendar the earliest Pascha can fall is March 22, which would give a Apostles Fast of 42 days (btw, that is how long it is on the Gregorian Calendar used in Finnland and Estonia).  On the hybrid, longest it can be is 29 days.  On the Julian, the longest it is 42 days, but it will be 43 days in the next century.  So much for the lack of alleged lack of asceticism on the Gregorian calendar.
How do you figure 43 days in the next century? The earliest that Pascha can be on any calendar is March 22 if the date of the equinox is determined by its relation to March 21 of the same calendar. The difference between March 22 and June 29 will always be the same when reckoned by the same calendar. What will happen is that the Apostles' Fast will shorten by a day for those on the hybrid calendar, and slightly more often be non-existent in some years.
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2011, 12:38:43 PM »

Well, the feast fell on a Wednesday this year, and it allowed for fish, wine, and oil.  Now, to a monastic, this is as festal as it gets, since they don't eat meat.  That would be the equivalent of laity having a steak.

So, if you think about, you're really not fasting according to the monastic rule...it's a feast day, plain and simple.  Now, if you want to have a steak, and call it fish, I won't tell on you.

Monastics are also allowed cheese and eggs, but they wouldn't eat these ordinarily on Wednesday or Friday, even if they eat fish because of a feast day.
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2011, 12:47:20 PM »

Yeah, good point.  Forgot about that.

Well, in that case, go have some salmon or tilapia in honor of the Fishers of Men!  If you've been fasting for the whole period, one more day shouldn't be a big deal!
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2011, 12:53:19 PM »

Yeah, good point.  Forgot about that.

Well, in that case, go have some salmon or tilapia in honor of the Fishers of Men!  If you've been fasting for the whole period, one more day shouldn't be a big deal!

Ah, if only I were a new calendarist. Tongue

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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2011, 01:31:47 PM »

I recall one Dormition that fell on a Wednesday, a priest said to fast another day, after fasting, to fast another day, i.e. fast two weeks to fast another day, with no feasting, was "just stupid."

Here we are (New Calendar), fasting for 2 weeks+, and the issue comes up again (and those on the Old Calendar need not insist that it would solve this issue: SS. Peter and Paul the Apostles falls on Wednesday and Fridays on the Old Calendar too, just not this year.  And next century-if, God forbid, the descrepency is allowed to continue-the Old Calendar with be exactly two weeks behind).

Any thoughts? Should the Feast be skipped?  Or the Fast set aside for it?

Well, I remember a priest saying that he thought the entire Apostles fast was "stupid" and he thought it had no point.

As for Transfiguration, being a feast of Our Lord, falling during the Dormition Fast and being a fish, wine, oil day - as someone once told me, "You don't mess with His Mama!"  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2011, 04:48:38 PM »

I know there is some jest in the comments, but with all the new calendar, old calendar...not really gonna get into it. It shall suffice to say that as far as I am concerned, I just don't see the issue as something essential to the Gospel message - Christ crucified and Risen.  Others can think and practice as they wish.  Just leave me out of it and let me go to church and pray in peace. But that's a topic for another section of the forum.  I shan't taint this one too much.

Back to the Apostle's fast, it may help to look at John Sanidopoulos' article on its history...it is apparently an ancient practice, but its duration varied greatly, since it arose through local custom rather than by decree.

Anyway, here's the link:  http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/05/history-of-apostles-fast.html
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 04:50:16 PM by SakranMM » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2011, 05:57:14 PM »

Looking at the calculations, on the Revised Julian Calendar the earliest Pascha can fall is March 22, which would give a Apostles Fast of 42 days (btw, that is how long it is on the Gregorian Calendar used in Finnland and Estonia).  On the hybrid, longest it can be is 29 days.  On the Julian, the longest it is 42 days, but it will be 43 days in the next century.  So much for the lack of alleged lack of asceticism on the Gregorian calendar.
How do you figure 43 days in the next century? The earliest that Pascha can be on any calendar is March 22 if the date of the equinox is determined by its relation to March 21 of the same calendar. The difference between March 22 and June 29 will always be the same when reckoned by the same calendar. What will happen is that the Apostles' Fast will shorten by a day for those on the hybrid calendar, and slightly more often be non-existent in some years.
Ah, so those on the hybrid will have no Apostles Fast and those on the Old Calendar will be celebrating Christmas in the Spring.
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2011, 07:21:22 PM »

Looking at the calculations, on the Revised Julian Calendar the earliest Pascha can fall is March 22, which would give a Apostles Fast of 42 days (btw, that is how long it is on the Gregorian Calendar used in Finnland and Estonia).  On the hybrid, longest it can be is 29 days.  On the Julian, the longest it is 42 days, but it will be 43 days in the next century.  So much for the lack of alleged lack of asceticism on the Gregorian calendar.
How do you figure 43 days in the next century? The earliest that Pascha can be on any calendar is March 22 if the date of the equinox is determined by its relation to March 21 of the same calendar. The difference between March 22 and June 29 will always be the same when reckoned by the same calendar. What will happen is that the Apostles' Fast will shorten by a day for those on the hybrid calendar, and slightly more often be non-existent in some years.
Ah, so those on the hybrid will have no Apostles Fast and those on the Old Calendar will be celebrating Christmas in the Spring.

At least we won't be as bad as those Aussies. Fancy celebrating Christmas in the midsummer heat!
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2011, 07:27:38 PM »

Looking at the calculations, on the Revised Julian Calendar the earliest Pascha can fall is March 22, which would give a Apostles Fast of 42 days (btw, that is how long it is on the Gregorian Calendar used in Finnland and Estonia).  On the hybrid, longest it can be is 29 days.  On the Julian, the longest it is 42 days, but it will be 43 days in the next century.  So much for the lack of alleged lack of asceticism on the Gregorian calendar.
How do you figure 43 days in the next century? The earliest that Pascha can be on any calendar is March 22 if the date of the equinox is determined by its relation to March 21 of the same calendar. The difference between March 22 and June 29 will always be the same when reckoned by the same calendar. What will happen is that the Apostles' Fast will shorten by a day for those on the hybrid calendar, and slightly more often be non-existent in some years.
Ah, so those on the hybrid will have no Apostles Fast and those on the Old Calendar will be celebrating Christmas in the Spring.

At least we won't be as bad as those Aussies. Fancy celebrating Christmas in the midsummer heat!

Or in Hawaii where there are really no seasons, except times of increased rain.
But it seems to rain every day at noon on the Big Island. Without a calendar, one would be lost.
The weather looks the same at Christmas, Pascha, and the Dormition.
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2011, 08:00:48 PM »

When I was living in Texas, it snowed one year at Christmas, and it was 80 degrees the following year.  Ridiculous.
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2011, 01:41:49 AM »

We're used to Christmas in the Summer and Pascha in the Autumn (Fall for you Yanks!). We just have lovely cold cuts with salads, seafood entrees and pavlova (google it!) for desert!
I'm all for the Patristic Calendar. Having used it for the last 15 years since converting, I find I do have to look up the Church dates before I read the service (if I've been so slack as to not having read yesterday's) or prepare services for Church.
Seems this thread may be a sneaky way of discussing the done-to-death calendar question!
I don't ever remember a Patristic Calendarist worrying about the fasting rules or length of Apostles' Fast. Could be wrong!
Happy Feast day for you who have celebrated it! And blessed continued Fast and Feast for those who have not.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 01:43:42 AM by Adelphi » Logged

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