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Author Topic: Head coverings for women  (Read 8740 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2011, 06:53:56 PM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
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« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2011, 07:28:09 PM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
So insulting a wonderful, devout and beautiful Orthodox Christian lady is no big deal???
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« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2011, 07:56:57 PM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
So insulting a wonderful, devout and beautiful Orthodox Christian lady is no big deal???

How is that insulting? If everyone doesn't make a fuss over it, there ain't nothing to talk about. If my point wasn't clear, that was it.

I thought you were asking in general why don't Priests address the issue and come down on one side or another in mixed parishes.

Sorry for the possible miscommunication.

The parish I go to I guess is very diverse and my Priest encourages a personal development of piety within certain limits. Never heard anyone really complain or comment other than to ask questions about Old World traditions and comparing various traditions in the light of interest and community.
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« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2011, 01:01:37 AM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
So insulting a wonderful, devout and beautiful Orthodox Christian lady is no big deal???

How is that insulting? If everyone doesn't make a fuss over it, there ain't nothing to talk about. If my point wasn't clear, that was it.

I thought you were asking in general why don't Priests address the issue and come down on one side or another in mixed parishes.

Sorry for the possible miscommunication.

The parish I go to I guess is very diverse and my Priest encourages a personal development of piety within certain limits. Never heard anyone really complain or comment other than to ask questions about Old World traditions and comparing various traditions in the light of interest and community.


If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.
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« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2011, 01:41:57 AM »

If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.

Clairvoyance now?  Roll Eyes

I hear nothing during the DL or anywhere. I am so hyper attentive to be nearly psychic (that's how I know you are not). The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.

But sorry, there ain't.

You lose and I do as well.  //:=|

If you would like, please feel free to PM me and if you are ever in town, you can go to my parish and judge the remarkable women who go there and a man who is beloved within our parish and without and who has incredible integrity.







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« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2011, 12:44:51 PM »

If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.

Clairvoyance now?  Roll Eyes

I hear nothing during the DL or anywhere. I am so hyper attentive to be nearly psychic (that's how I know you are not). The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.

But sorry, there ain't.

You lose and I do as well.  //:=|

If you would like, please feel free to PM me and if you are ever in town, you can go to my parish and judge the remarkable women who go there and a man who is beloved within our parish and without and who has incredible integrity.









Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches. Maria seems to have witnessed such a thing, and Eleni at my church has witnessed such things. Are we just supposed to take your word for it that everything is hunky-dory everywhere?

The right dynamic should be that women should cover their heads, but if some women find it uncomfortable, they shouldn't be forced if it causes them to leave church completely. The wrong dynamic is when not covering one's head becomes the new norm, and the covered women are made to feel uncomfortable, which would result in them thinking about leaving.
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« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2011, 01:53:38 PM »

If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.

Clairvoyance now?  Roll Eyes

I hear nothing during the DL or anywhere. I am so hyper attentive to be nearly psychic (that's how I know you are not). The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.

But sorry, there ain't.

You lose and I do as well.  //:=|

If you would like, please feel free to PM me and if you are ever in town, you can go to my parish and judge the remarkable women who go there and a man who is beloved within our parish and without and who has incredible integrity.









Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches. Maria seems to have witnessed such a thing, and Eleni at my church has witnessed such things. Are we just supposed to take your word for it that everything is hunky-dory everywhere?

The right dynamic should be that women should cover their heads, but if some women find it uncomfortable, they shouldn't be forced if it causes them to leave church completely. The wrong dynamic is when not covering one's head becomes the new norm, and the covered women are made to feel uncomfortable, which would result in them thinking about leaving.

I originally had decided to become involved with ROCOR partly because I knew they require women to cover their heads in church. My olnly other experience with Christianity was Traditional RCism, where women also must cover and I fully agree with it. The Orthodox church I ended up going to (due to dtravel issues) does not have any women who cover except one who doesn't come all the time, so maybe I will be the first.
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« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2011, 03:59:53 PM »


Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches. Maria seems to have witnessed such a thing, and Eleni at my church has witnessed such things. Are we just supposed to take your word for it that everything is hunky-dory everywhere?

The right dynamic should be that women should cover their heads, but if some women find it uncomfortable, they shouldn't be forced if it causes them to leave church completely. The wrong dynamic is when not covering one's head becomes the new norm, and the covered women are made to feel uncomfortable, which would result in them thinking about leaving.

As I noted up thread, it also goes the other way. I have been publicly singled out *by the priest* for not covering their head, when I generally wore one but forgot my scarf one day (in a parish where there maybe 50% covered) and in the same parish, I saw women who didn't ever wear one also be publicly singled out by the priest, which I think everyone would agree is the wrong way to go about it. The priest had no rhyme or reason for who he singled out for not wearing a head covering.

The one parish I've been told of where women are told NOT to wear a head covering is so weird in other aspects that it's just a part of the whole of that parish's strangeness.

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« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2011, 05:02:36 PM »

Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches.

Do you read posts before responding? She was talking to ME personally and about the Parish I attend. And I don't think, I know.

Of course it goes on elsewhere, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist where people want a yes or no answer for all women for all time, or offer up come sorta "economy" concerning a cultural tradition.

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« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »

Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches.

Do you read posts before responding? She was talking to ME personally and about the Parish I attend. And I don't think, I know.

Of course it goes on elsewhere, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist where people want a yes or no answer for all women for all time, or offer up come sorta "economy" concerning a cultural tradition.



Re-reading her post it still seems to me she was talking about Greek and OCA parishes in a general sense, which is why I thought it was strange you then started to generalize from your own parish. Where was she speaking of your parish specifically?

Calling it just a "cultural tradition" fails to account for the fact that St Paul explicitly instructs women to cover, and that head-covering is a universal Orthodox tradition in all cultures, whether Greek, Russian, Serbian, Arab or whatever you like. Nor the fact that it was just as common in the West until recently. The fact that head-covering for women in church is a universal tradition in Orthodoxy is not in question here. What is in question is where economy can be exercised in the light of very recent cultural developments that pressure women to avoid head-covering.
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« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2011, 07:58:10 PM »

I went to an Albanian Orthodox church, and only one woman had her head covered (and I think she might have been a Russian visitor, based on her accent.) This led me, as a new inquirer into Orthodoxy, to assume that maybe head coverings for women were a Russian custom, not a rule for all Orthodox. I also went to a Greek Orthodox church, and there, not one woman had her head covered. I didn't cover, even though I had brought something for that...but I felt bad the whole time since I had always been taught (Traditional RC) to cover when in church because of the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

Now that I know better, I am going to cover my head no matter what Orthodox church I go to.
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »

Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches.

Do you read posts before responding? She was talking to ME personally and about the Parish I attend. And I don't think, I know.

Of course it goes on elsewhere, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist where people want a yes or no answer for all women for all time, or offer up come sorta "economy" concerning a cultural tradition.



No, I was speaking from general experience in both Greek and OCA parishes. I still do not know if you are male or female (that really does not matter anyway) or what parish you attend, so how can know all about your parish? Father Tillman gave a retreat where he talked about his experience as a pastor in the OCA. He shared that he had to apply for food stamps because the parish would not give him a salary that was adequate. Unfortunately, that is not an isolated occurrence.
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2011, 01:27:37 AM »

Now that I know better, I am going to cover my head no matter what Orthodox church I go to.

Know better than what? That some people on the internet think covering your head is some theological truth?

If you do decide to take a strident stance, I hope you are able to answer for it.

And I sincerely would be interested in hearing your reason for it, as no one here has provided any.

Again: St. Ambrose.
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« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2011, 04:24:36 PM »

Now that I know better, I am going to cover my head no matter what Orthodox church I go to.

Know better than what? That some people on the internet think covering your head is some theological truth?

If you do decide to take a strident stance, I hope you are able to answer for it.

And I sincerely would be interested in hearing your reason for it, as no one here has provided any.

Again: St. Ambrose.

I feel that women should cover their head out of respect for the house of God. In my family there are two very traditional religious backgrounds where women covering their heads is the norm, not an aberration. I'm not going to tell others that they have to, but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.
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« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2011, 04:31:02 PM »

Quote from: Xenia1918
...but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.

I fee the same way.  I started covering from the first time I started going to the Greek Church (Old Calendar) and it just wouldn't feel right to be uncovered. Afterwards, I went to ROCOR and many did there too.   It's before God not before people that counts. 
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« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »

Quote from: Xenia1918
...but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.

I fee the same way.  I started covering from the first time I started going to the Greek Church (Old Calendar) and it just wouldn't feel right to be uncovered. Afterwards, I went to ROCOR and many did there too.   It's before God not before people that counts. 

I agree (after a few times attending at the local parish, I finally decided to cover my head today, and don't you know that is when Father decided to call me up after Liturgy to introduce me to everyone and I'm the ONLY woman with her head covered, lol!)
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« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2011, 05:17:06 PM »

Quote from: Xenia1918
...but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.

I fee the same way.  I started covering from the first time I started going to the Greek Church (Old Calendar) and it just wouldn't feel right to be uncovered. Afterwards, I went to ROCOR and many did there too.   It's before God not before people that counts. 

I agree (after a few times attending at the local parish, I finally decided to cover my head today, and don't you know that is when Father decided to call me up after Liturgy to introduce me to everyone and I'm the ONLY woman with her head covered, lol!)

Maybe he wanted to make you a positive example.  Priests need to be careful how they approach the subject so that a person will not feel like they are being lectured.  Or mybe I'm reading too much into it.
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« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2011, 07:02:37 PM »

The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.


This does sting, probably because I get accused of this a lot.

Call me a nosy anthropologist hipster, whatever, I've worked and lived with different cultures in different countries and I really appreciate some of their practices and traditions. I think it's a little ridiculous that I cannot participate because of the family that I was born into (hah, I'm not upper class now, not by a long shot) or because I'm 1st generation American (part from Eastern European blood...have been in the region about 7 times). I do draw the line, as I do not walk around in hejab, native american headdresses, or wearing military uniforms. But I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating the tradition, especially in our own faith, as long as we're not dictating or judging other women who aren't wearing the scarf as laypeople.
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« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2011, 08:06:53 PM »

The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.


This does sting, probably because I get accused of this a lot.

Call me a nosy anthropologist hipster, whatever, I've worked and lived with different cultures in different countries and I really appreciate some of their practices and traditions. I think it's a little ridiculous that I cannot participate because of the family that I was born into (hah, I'm not upper class now, not by a long shot) or because I'm 1st generation American (part from Eastern European blood...have been in the region about 7 times). I do draw the line, as I do not walk around in hejab, native american headdresses, or wearing military uniforms. But I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating the tradition, especially in our own faith, as long as we're not dictating or judging other women who aren't wearing the scarf as laypeople.

Without adding to the conversation re covering, I will +1 this, being one of those people that prefers the culture of others to that he was born into.
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« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2011, 09:31:50 PM »

The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.


This does sting, probably because I get accused of this a lot.

Oh IsmiLiora!

Don't be stung! You miss quoted me. Your forgot: //:=|

It was meant to be more self-deprecating than you-deprecating, not completely I suppose //:=|
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« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2011, 09:34:18 PM »

Without adding to the conversation re covering, I will +1 this, being one of those people that prefers the culture of others to that he was born into.

Well you are Australian. Do I really need to bring him out? //:=|
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« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2011, 10:02:45 PM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.
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« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2011, 10:24:09 PM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.
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« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2011, 10:45:52 PM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.

Its the word for the veil worn at Traditional Latin Masses...I think I still have mine somewhere!

http://www.adoremusbooks.com/productimageslarge/76/76348.jpg
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« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2011, 11:36:13 PM »

Without adding to the conversation re covering, I will +1 this, being one of those people that prefers the culture of others to that he was born into.

Well you are Australian. Do I really need to bring him out? //:=|

Another +1, hahah.
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« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2011, 12:28:39 AM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.

Its the word for the veil worn at Traditional Latin Masses...I think I still have mine somewhere!

http://www.adoremusbooks.com/productimageslarge/76/76348.jpg

I have made a few mantillas. I have one in white trimmed with a white bridal lace that is awesome. Then I have another in forest green lace (the less expensive craft lace). However, I found some pretty multicolored Eastern European ribbon with a green border and sewed that on. It is very pretty and cool in the summer months.

The word mantilla is from the Spanish. The ladies in Spain and in Mexico used to wear very long lace mantillas.
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« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2011, 01:32:25 AM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.

Its the word for the veil worn at Traditional Latin Masses...I think I still have mine somewhere!

http://www.adoremusbooks.com/productimageslarge/76/76348.jpg

I have made a few mantillas. I have one in white trimmed with a white bridal lace that is awesome. Then I have another in forest green lace (the less expensive craft lace). However, I found some pretty multicolored Eastern European ribbon with a green border and sewed that on. It is very pretty and cool in the summer months.

The word mantilla is from the Spanish. The ladies in Spain and in Mexico used to wear very long lace mantillas.

Now ain't girl talk much more funner than arguing over pious minutia? (no sarcasm). This is the sorta talk I hear in my parish. Women and men from a variety of backgrounds discussing how they and their families have lived out their faith and creating a community from many corners of the earth. And for the record, I would probably be in chit chat with the women, so I meant no condescension by my remarks about girl talk.

And in these matters, there ain't no wrong answers. Maybe a woman decides to start wearing a head covering given to her after such a discussion made by a fellow parishioner.

Lenten traditions and recipes passed back and forth including Lenten foods from "converts".

It is in this spirit that I hope a parish would live.

No brow-beating or back-biting. Just sharing how the faith is lived out within the worlds each come within the larger context of the Truth of the Gospel.

And FWIW, if you want to convert someone to wearing a head covering or your entire parish, one talk at a time about how it fits into the story of your life and offering gifts goes a lot farther than pointing to a single and very odd verse in the Scriptures.

At least that is what I observe other people doing, while I carry-on atop my soapbox.

Has something to do with love and patient and kindness or something.

Anyone up for a John Hughes' marathon? Best ice cream in the America in my city . . .



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« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2011, 05:24:12 AM »



Now ain't girl talk much more funner than arguing over pious minutia? (no sarcasm). 



"Pious minutia"?

I don't think so!

What other instructions in St. Paul's epistles has been relegated to the status of minutiae? This is a slippery slope you're sliding. You sound rather like a Protestant I think.

Some "Old World" traditions are actually Orthodox Christian cultural Traditions and are meant to be kept.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle."
- II Thessalonians 2:9-15

"(W)e command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you;"
- II Thessalonians 3:3-7

"These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."
- I Timothy 3:14-15
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« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2011, 09:17:22 AM »



Now ain't girl talk much more funner than arguing over pious minutia? (no sarcasm). 



"Pious minutia"?

I don't think so!

What other instructions in St. Paul's epistles has been relegated to the status of minutiae?
That men should have their heads uncovered.  What's with the Eastern clerical headgear, including mitres?

This is a slippery slope you're sliding. You sound rather like a Protestant I think.

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« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2011, 10:01:07 AM »


Oh IsmiLiora!

Don't be stung! You miss quoted me. Your forgot: //:=|

It was meant to be more self-deprecating than you-deprecating, not completely I suppose //:=|
I know you weren't directing it at any of us, but it's a comment that made me go "OUCH" anyway. I know I'm not quite hipster level of obnoxious yet, so I'll let it go for the moment.  Wink   Cheesy
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« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2011, 10:47:24 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

There is an icon in which St. Mary the Virgin is shown with her hair down as a maiden might wear it.  It is the "Help in Birth-Giving" and it can be seen and read about at the site of St. John the Baptist ROCOR in Washington D.C.   http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/english.htm  Under
"Icons of the Mother of God" with the date of December 26/Jan 8
http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/icons/theotokos_other/help_birth.jpg

Ebor
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« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2011, 10:51:05 AM »

Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time,

"Traditional female clothing" from what time and place? There's a lot of human history and differences

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« Reply #122 on: July 04, 2011, 02:15:28 PM »

Ok Ebor, you're right about one, but it's an exception to the rule.  It seems to me that examples of exceptions are used to usurp the rule.  My question is why does the iconographer choose to write this icon with her uncovered?  Who wrote this icon?  I'd appreciate a theological explanation of this depiction.
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« Reply #123 on: July 04, 2011, 02:43:52 PM »

This topic has gone to, thru, around, and branched in many directions far beyond the parameters of the Convert Issues Board "simple answers with resources" You are welcome to divide your many topics enclosed in this topic and develop them further in another forum [perhaps faith issues forum]. This topic is closed in the Convert Issues Forum.

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