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Xenia1918
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« on: June 28, 2011, 01:16:40 PM »

Is it a rule or custom in some ethnicities for women to have their heads covered during Divine Liturgy? Before attending my first Divine Liturgy, I familiarized myself primarily with ROCOR, since that is where I felt I would most belong. However, due to transportation and related problems, I've founded it necessary to attend closer to home, and in the two different Orthodox churches I have been to so far, none of them had women covering their heads, but I know the Russians do.

Can anyone tell me if its a rule or custom? Would it be OK if I covered my head anyway, even if no other woman is?
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 01:27:49 PM »

I don't know of any priest who will tell you NOT to cover your head (oh, wait, I do - but it was second-hand info). So, it's up to you to do it at a parish where other women don't cover. Just depends on your comfort level. Ask the priest, as well.

Frankly, it might be best, at least for a while, to do as other women in your parish do.

You might feel more comfortable in a hat rather than a scarf, at first. Nice straw hat with a scarf or wide ribbon wrapped around the crown, tied in a bow in back, and ends trailing down a bit?

In my OCA parish, a very few women cover. There's one ROCOR family that comes occasionally. They wore their scarves at first, but don't now. I'm sure they wear them when at the ROCOR parish.

Frankly, being dressed modestly is more of an issue than women covering their heads, in my experience. It's always startling to see a woman dressed scantily, in a hoochie-mama short skirt and showing lots of cleavage or in very tight pants - but topped with a head scarf. These are mostly foreign-born women who were taught you always have to have your head covered in church, but somehow the dressing modestly lesson was skipped. Shocked
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kazakage
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2011, 01:34:33 PM »

Y not? Maybe other women will also get inspired Grin
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 01:49:16 PM »

I totally agree about the modesty in dress too! The only religions I've ever been involved in were Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Roman Catholicism, and both stress modesty in dress to a great degree as well as head coverings, so I'm very used to it and believe in it. When I read the dress requirements at the website for my local ROCOR parish, I knew I would fit right in....my problem is getting there (long story).
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 02:07:14 PM »

Our priest encourages it as a pious practice for women, but does not require it. Some women in our parish do, some don't. I do. Oddly enough, it serves as a reminder of where I am and why, for the same reason, I guess, that I wear a cross. I don't wear a cross to show other people I'm a Christian - I wear it to remind myself that I'm one and to try to act accordingly! Grin

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joasia
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 06:48:29 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 08:08:20 PM »

modesty of course is paramount...but, as a catechumen i began to feel strongly about covering even though no one else did in our small OCA church...i talked w our priest and he gave me his blessing...so i began by first coming in and kissing the icon then going to my seat...until then i only had my scarf around my neck...once settled in my place i pulled the scarf up over my head and left it there until i left church...eventually i grew more comfortable and began entering the church with the scarf over my head...now 2 other women cover their head as well Wink

i also cover at home when praying...i am tempted to cover all day....

Georgianna
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Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 08:49:55 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice. One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

One these many tricky things where there is a traditional standard, but for pastoral reasons it may not always be a good idea to enforce it rigidly. That being said, excessive immodesty can also be a sign of bad pastorship. Something I suppose for which we are meant to use discernment. Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 09:14:02 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 09:18:41 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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Xenia1918
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 09:37:49 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.
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joasia
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2011, 10:28:57 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2011, 10:39:11 PM »

I once asked my priest out of curiosity.  Where we have Liturgy the woman chooses whether to cover her head or not.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2011, 10:41:35 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
I don't see why he wouldn't allow slacks on Sundays, or any day for that matter.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2011, 10:43:54 PM »

Is it a rule or custom in some ethnicities for women to have their heads covered during Divine Liturgy? Before attending my first Divine Liturgy, I familiarized myself primarily with ROCOR, since that is where I felt I would most belong. However, due to transportation and related problems, I've founded it necessary to attend closer to home, and in the two different Orthodox churches I have been to so far, none of them had women covering their heads, but I know the Russians do.

Can anyone tell me if its a rule or custom? Would it be OK if I covered my head anyway, even if no other woman is?

My priest told me that it would be okay to wear a scarf or lacy veil (mantilla) just prior to receiving Holy Communion.
In that way, it would be more acceptable to those women who are militantly against wearing any head covering.
Yes, there are a few of those gals especially in the New Calendar churches: Greek, OCA, and Antiochian.
Surprisingly, the militant ones who oppose and question me, are older women who are over 50 but under 80 years of age.

So, I wear my head scarf only when receiving Holy Communion, unless it is very cold like at Pascha when we must go outside.
Since I have been doing so, more women have chosen to cover. They just did not want to be the first ones.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 10:47:04 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.

She comes from our level "...came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Virgin Mary....and became man...."

Btw, I don't see hair here:
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
joasia
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 10:48:18 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
I don't see why he wouldn't allow slacks on Sundays, or any day for that matter.

Did you know him or is this just your opinion?
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 10:52:26 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.

She comes from our level "...came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Virgin Mary....and became man...."

Btw, I don't see hair here:


It is the more modern art of the 1930 to 1990s that depicts the Virgin Theotokos without a head covering or with a partial head covering.
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 11:06:29 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.

She comes from our level "...came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Virgin Mary....and became man...."

Btw, I don't see hair here:


His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
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The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 11:12:38 PM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 11:15:18 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 11:19:15 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 11:20:01 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
I don't see why he wouldn't allow slacks on Sundays, or any day for that matter.

He was probably concerned about scandalizing other members of the congregation. Obviously he didn't consider it a matter of faith, otherwise he wouldn't have allowed it ever. It's a good practice, though, since men and women should dress in ways that are appropriate to their sex. There is obviously a double standard with respect to this in our society, since women are far more likely to wear pants than men are to wear skirts, hence the pastoral condescension to some women who may be offended by not being allowed to wear pants and might avoid church altogether for that reason.
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 11:20:06 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.

I always wear ankle length skirts to church and to most places of business.
The only exception is when I visit the physical therapist or chiropractor as they have requested that I wear modest slacks
to expedite the treatment. Sometimes I wear slacks underneath my skirts and then remove the skirt at the PT.
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 11:20:23 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?


Relevance?
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 11:21:26 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?



Hey, something important is missing.

Oh, he is beardless.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 11:29:01 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?



Hey, something important is missing.

Oh, he is beardless.  Roll Eyes
Doesn't look like he can grow one yet.

Besides, beardless goes way back:

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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 11:29:54 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?


Relevance?
you want traditional, I'll give you traditional.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 11:54:46 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?


Relevance?
you want traditional, I'll give you traditional.

So what, now dresses aren't traditional for women?
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2011, 12:01:26 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2011, 12:16:52 AM »

So what, now dresses aren't traditional for women?
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2011, 12:17:30 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
Oh? Why's that?
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2011, 01:04:24 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
Oh? Why's that?

From your comment.
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2011, 01:14:02 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
Oh? Why's that?

From your comment.
That I'm not scandalized?
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2011, 01:29:37 AM »

Are there any Orthodox Icons that show the Virgin Theotokos with her hair showing underneath her veil as in Our Lady of Guadalupe?
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« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2011, 02:21:33 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?
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« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2011, 02:28:15 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
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« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 03:38:40 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
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« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2011, 06:48:16 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
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« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 07:16:49 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
You seem to have an extra verse.  In my Bible St. Paul doesn't say anything about trousers.
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 07:17:28 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2011, 07:23:32 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 08:01:20 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 08:32:49 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
The obsession with beards came with the Roman upper classes and their Stoicism.  Many (most?) images of contemporary Christians in the catacombs do not have beards.
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2011, 08:58:44 AM »

I prefer facial hair on men, I think God put it there to make a distinction between the genders.
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2011, 09:05:54 AM »

I prefer facial hair on men, I think God put it there to make a distinction between the genders.
I have to admit, I prefer facial hair on men rather than women myself.
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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2011, 09:19:48 AM »

I prefer facial hair on men, I think God put it there to make a distinction between the genders.
I have to admit, I prefer facial hair on men rather than women myself.

 laugh
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2011, 12:45:49 PM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
The obsession with beards came with the Roman upper classes and their Stoicism.  Many (most?) images of contemporary Christians in the catacombs do not have beards.

What did Stoicism teach about beards? That one should wear them or not wear them? I always had the impression Roman patricians were clean-shaven ordinarily, at least going by their busts and statues, so if your point is that the Roman upper classes traditionally wore beards I think you would need to justify that claim with some evidence.

If contemporary Christian men were beardless, or at least portrayed as beardless in idealistic portraits, that is probably again influence from Roman customs. The Biblical and patristic doctrine is that men should wear beards. In different times and places other customs prevailed, but these are aberrations that are tolerated by economy.

For the record, I am normally clean shaven. Wink
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« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2011, 01:39:55 PM »

The Biblical and patristic doctrine is that men should wear beards. In different times and places other customs prevailed, but these are aberrations that are tolerated by economy.

This is madness.

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Christians are indistinguishable from other men either by nationality, language or customs. They do not inhabit separate cities of their own, or speak a strange dialect, or follow some outlandish way of life. Their teaching is not based upon reveries inspired by the curiosity of men. Unlike some other people, they champion no purely human doctrine. With regard to dress, food and manner of life in general, they follow the customs of whatever city they happen to be living in, whether it is Greek or foreign.

And yet there is something extraordinary about their lives. They live in their own countries as though they were only passing through. They play their full role as citizens, but labor under all the disabilities of aliens. Any country can be their homeland, but for them their homeland, wherever it may be, is a foreign country. Like others, they marry and have children, but they do not expose them. They share their meals, but not their wives.  

http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010522_diogneto_en.html

Quote
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,[a] that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ[c]), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as[d] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (NKJV)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 01:41:03 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2011, 01:51:24 PM »

My take on the whole issue is this:

I've run into a large number of folks, both women and men, who've made the head covering issue a hill to die on. These folks make a majorly huge issue out of it and concentrate on it to the exclusion of a great many other things, such as being educated in the faith, actually attending services, and living a Christian life. We'll not mention the women who come down hard on people for not wearing them, but don't bother to even dress modestly themselves when they're reaming other women for not covering their heads.

I like to do it, but if I don't, it's not the end of the world. Having been in a parish where a good number of women covered their heads, I saw the occasional woman *get publicly yelled at* by the priest for not wearing one (I was on the receiving end of that once), when there was no rhyme or reason to the whole thing. A woman who never wore one would get called out, and one who'd forgotten hers occasionally would get singled out as well. No blessings were given for women to wear/not wear a head covering, as I've been told happens in some parishes.

In my current parish, the women cover or not, as they wish, and the priest doesn't publicly express an opinion either way. I much prefer that to seeing women getting yelled at for not wearing one.
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« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2011, 02:02:00 PM »

Bottom line:

A specific pastoral exhortation in light of some lite-theology to a specific community in a specific time.

This is an example EO verse mining and attempting to export cultural tradition to communities elsewhere.

See quotes from above and St. Ambrose's advice to St. Monica.

This subject gets way too much time on here.

Something fun for Americans who want to convert into an identity.

Beards and head coverings . . .

How are you spending your time and money seems much more interesting to discuss in light of the Gospel, but I guess that is between you, your spiritual Father, God, and investment planner . . .

EDIT: Again, the use of the impersonal you, lest any be offended the above applies to them.

  

« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 02:03:30 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2011, 02:38:51 PM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
The obsession with beards came with the Roman upper classes and their Stoicism.  Many (most?) images of contemporary Christians in the catacombs do not have beards.

What did Stoicism teach about beards? That one should wear them or not wear them?

You had to wear them.  It on the same level as abortion, homosexual acts and self multilation not to.  Natural law.

Dear brother Quinault,

Your concise description reinforces my belief of how utterly opposed ABC is to God's Natural Law.

I fail to see how. Is shaving opposed to this law, too?

A good point.  Pierced ears?  Breast implants?  Fertility drugs?  Gastric-bypass surgery?  Chemotherapy drugs?

I find it hard to distinguish where the line between allowed reinforcement and the limit of "God's Natural Law" is sometimes.
I don't see how any of these violates or impedes God's Natural Order.  Shaving? Huh  

LOL. St. Clement, one of the favorites for the quote mine for the Vatican on contraception, would point it out to you:
Ok...this may be a silly thing to ask, but what is the significance of wearing beards in Orthodoxy? Is it a clergy only thing, or do most laity in Orthodoxy keep a beard as well? I enjoy wearing a beard, but was just wondering if this is part of Orthodoxy for a significant reason, or is just a discipline that has developed over time. Thanks for any feedback.


“How womanly it is for one who is a man to shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect & to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, & smooth them! For God wished women to be smooth & to rejoice in their locks. But he adorned man like the lions, with a beard, & endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest, a sign of strength & rule.” Clement of Alexandria

'Nuff said.
I've always wondered how much this reflected the philosophical baggage St. Clement brought into the Church with him.
"The mask of Socrates: the image of the intellectual in antiquity" By Paul Zanker
http://books.google.com/books?id=2VxdRS6sCcgC&pg=PA108&dq=stoic+beards+shaving&cd=5#v=onepage&q&f=false

Natural law strikes again.
St. Clement goes on AT LENGTH about shaving violating the "natural order."

I always had the impression Roman patricians were clean-shaven ordinarily, at least going by their busts and statues, so if your point is that the Roman upper classes traditionally wore beards I think you would need to justify that claim with some evidence.
Quote
Shaving seems to have not been known to the Romans during their early history (under the Kings of Rome and the early Republic). Pliny tells us that P. Ticinius was the first who brought a barber to Rome, which was in the 454th year from the founding of the city (that is, around 299 BC). Scipio Africanus was apparently the first among the Romans who shaved his beard. However, after that point, shaving seems to have caught on very quickly, and soon almost all Roman men were clean-shaven; being clean-shaven became a sign of being Roman and not Greek. Only in the later times of the Republic did the Roman youth begin shaving their beards only partially, trimming it into an ornamental form; prepubescent boys oiled their chins in hopes of forcing premature growth of a beard.[14]

Still, beards remained rare among the Romans throughout the Late Republic and the early Principate. In a general way, in Rome at this time, a long beard was considered a mark of slovenliness and squalor. The censors L. Veturius and P. Licinius compelled M. Livius, who had been banished, on his restoration to the city, to be shaved, and to lay aside his dirty appearance, and then, but not until then, to come into the Senate.[15] The first occasion of shaving was regarded as the beginning of manhood, and the day on which this took place was celebrated as a festival.[16] Usually, this was done when the young Roman assumed the toga virilis. Augustus did it in his twenty-fourth year, Caligula in his twentieth. The hair cut off on such occasions was consecrated to a god. Thus Nero put his into a golden box set with pearls, and dedicated it to Jupiter Capitolinus.[17] The Romans, unlike the Greeks, let their beards grow in time of mourning; so did Augustus for the death of Julius Caesar.[18] Other occasions of mourning on which the beard was allowed to grow were, appearance as a reus, condemnation, or some public calamity. On the other hand, men of the country areas around Rome in the time of Varro seem not to have shaved except when they came to market every eighth day, so that their usual appearance was most likely a short stubble.[19]
In the second century AD the Emperor Hadrian, according to Dion Cassius, was the first of all the Caesars to grow a beard; Plutarch says that he did it to hide scars on his face. This was a period in Rome of widespread imitation of Greek culture, and many other men grew beards in imitation of Hadrian and the Greek fashion. Until the time of Constantine the Great the emperors appear in busts and coins with beards; but Constantine and his successors until the reign of Phocas, with the exception of Julian the Apostate, are represented as beardless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard#Ancient_Rome
On Nero:
Quote
He was likewise the first to establish at Rome a quinquennialb contest in three parts, after the Greek fashion, that is in music,33 gymnastics, and riding, which he called the Neronia; at the same time he dedicated his baths and gymnasium,34 supplying every member of the senatorial and equestrian orders with oil. To preside over35 the whole contest he appointed ex-consuls, chosen by lot, who occupied the seats of the praetors. Then he went down into the orchestra among the senators p107and accepted the prize for Latin oratory and verse, for which all the most eminent men had contended but which was given to him with their unanimous consent; but when that for lyre-playing was also offered him by the judges, he knelt before it and ordered that it be laid at the feet of Augustus' statue. 4 At the gymnastic contest, which he gave in the •Saepta, he shaved his first beard to the accompaniment of a splendid sacrifice of bullocks, put it in a golden box adorned with pearls of great price, and dedicated it in the Capitol. He invited the Vestal virgins also to witness the contests of the athletes,36 because at Olympia the priestesses of Ceres were allowed the same privilege.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Nero*.html
On Julian the Apostate:


On the philosophers' beard:
Ancient philosophy of the self By Pauliina Remes, Juha Sihvola
http://books.google.com/books?id=mAAIW0A0NqcC&pg=PA25&dq=philosopher+beard&cd=2#v=onepage&q=philosopher%20beard&f=false
The art of living: the Stoics on the nature and function of philosophy By John Sellars
http://books.google.com/books?id=9nSbJkGwV3YC&pg=PA15&dq=The+Art+of+living+Stoics+beard&hl=en&ei=UsEMTqj0F6efsQKxgrCpCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Art%20of%20living%20Stoics%20beard&f=false

If contemporary Christian men were beardless, or at least portrayed as beardless in idealistic portraits, that is probably again influence from Roman customs.

The Egyptians were normally beardless, although many of the Fayyum portraits-the only large catch of panel painting of antiquity which formed the basis of Orthodox iconography-show lots of beards as well, which was a Greek influence.
The Biblical and patristic doctrine is that men should wear beards.
The Patristics I've seen on the matter is just regurgitated Stoicism.  As for the Bible, if you are not going to shave on what it says, then you have to shave off your foreskin like it says.

In different times and places other customs prevailed, but these are aberrations that are tolerated by economy.
Says who?

For the record, I am normally clean shaven. Wink
I try, not always with success.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 02:40:07 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2011, 02:53:53 PM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
The obsession with beards came with the Roman upper classes and their Stoicism.  Many (most?) images of contemporary Christians in the catacombs do not have beards.

What did Stoicism teach about beards? That one should wear them or not wear them?

You had to wear them.  It on the same level as abortion, homosexual acts and self multilation not to.  Natural law.

Dear brother Quinault,

Your concise description reinforces my belief of how utterly opposed ABC is to God's Natural Law.

I fail to see how. Is shaving opposed to this law, too?

A good point.  Pierced ears?  Breast implants?  Fertility drugs?  Gastric-bypass surgery?  Chemotherapy drugs?

I find it hard to distinguish where the line between allowed reinforcement and the limit of "God's Natural Law" is sometimes.
I don't see how any of these violates or impedes God's Natural Order.  Shaving? Huh  

LOL. St. Clement, one of the favorites for the quote mine for the Vatican on contraception, would point it out to you:
Ok...this may be a silly thing to ask, but what is the significance of wearing beards in Orthodoxy? Is it a clergy only thing, or do most laity in Orthodoxy keep a beard as well? I enjoy wearing a beard, but was just wondering if this is part of Orthodoxy for a significant reason, or is just a discipline that has developed over time. Thanks for any feedback.


“How womanly it is for one who is a man to shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect & to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, & smooth them! For God wished women to be smooth & to rejoice in their locks. But he adorned man like the lions, with a beard, & endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest, a sign of strength & rule.” Clement of Alexandria

'Nuff said.
I've always wondered how much this reflected the philosophical baggage St. Clement brought into the Church with him.
"The mask of Socrates: the image of the intellectual in antiquity" By Paul Zanker
http://books.google.com/books?id=2VxdRS6sCcgC&pg=PA108&dq=stoic+beards+shaving&cd=5#v=onepage&q&f=false

Natural law strikes again.
St. Clement goes on AT LENGTH about shaving violating the "natural order."

I always had the impression Roman patricians were clean-shaven ordinarily, at least going by their busts and statues, so if your point is that the Roman upper classes traditionally wore beards I think you would need to justify that claim with some evidence.
Quote
Shaving seems to have not been known to the Romans during their early history (under the Kings of Rome and the early Republic). Pliny tells us that P. Ticinius was the first who brought a barber to Rome, which was in the 454th year from the founding of the city (that is, around 299 BC). Scipio Africanus was apparently the first among the Romans who shaved his beard. However, after that point, shaving seems to have caught on very quickly, and soon almost all Roman men were clean-shaven; being clean-shaven became a sign of being Roman and not Greek. Only in the later times of the Republic did the Roman youth begin shaving their beards only partially, trimming it into an ornamental form; prepubescent boys oiled their chins in hopes of forcing premature growth of a beard.[14]

Still, beards remained rare among the Romans throughout the Late Republic and the early Principate. In a general way, in Rome at this time, a long beard was considered a mark of slovenliness and squalor. The censors L. Veturius and P. Licinius compelled M. Livius, who had been banished, on his restoration to the city, to be shaved, and to lay aside his dirty appearance, and then, but not until then, to come into the Senate.[15] The first occasion of shaving was regarded as the beginning of manhood, and the day on which this took place was celebrated as a festival.[16] Usually, this was done when the young Roman assumed the toga virilis. Augustus did it in his twenty-fourth year, Caligula in his twentieth. The hair cut off on such occasions was consecrated to a god. Thus Nero put his into a golden box set with pearls, and dedicated it to Jupiter Capitolinus.[17] The Romans, unlike the Greeks, let their beards grow in time of mourning; so did Augustus for the death of Julius Caesar.[18] Other occasions of mourning on which the beard was allowed to grow were, appearance as a reus, condemnation, or some public calamity. On the other hand, men of the country areas around Rome in the time of Varro seem not to have shaved except when they came to market every eighth day, so that their usual appearance was most likely a short stubble.[19]
In the second century AD the Emperor Hadrian, according to Dion Cassius, was the first of all the Caesars to grow a beard; Plutarch says that he did it to hide scars on his face. This was a period in Rome of widespread imitation of Greek culture, and many other men grew beards in imitation of Hadrian and the Greek fashion. Until the time of Constantine the Great the emperors appear in busts and coins with beards; but Constantine and his successors until the reign of Phocas, with the exception of Julian the Apostate, are represented as beardless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard#Ancient_Rome
On Nero:
Quote
He was likewise the first to establish at Rome a quinquennialb contest in three parts, after the Greek fashion, that is in music,33 gymnastics, and riding, which he called the Neronia; at the same time he dedicated his baths and gymnasium,34 supplying every member of the senatorial and equestrian orders with oil. To preside over35 the whole contest he appointed ex-consuls, chosen by lot, who occupied the seats of the praetors. Then he went down into the orchestra among the senators p107and accepted the prize for Latin oratory and verse, for which all the most eminent men had contended but which was given to him with their unanimous consent; but when that for lyre-playing was also offered him by the judges, he knelt before it and ordered that it be laid at the feet of Augustus' statue. 4 At the gymnastic contest, which he gave in the •Saepta, he shaved his first beard to the accompaniment of a splendid sacrifice of bullocks, put it in a golden box adorned with pearls of great price, and dedicated it in the Capitol. He invited the Vestal virgins also to witness the contests of the athletes,36 because at Olympia the priestesses of Ceres were allowed the same privilege.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Nero*.html
On Julian the Apostate:


On the philosophers' beard:
Ancient philosophy of the self By Pauliina Remes, Juha Sihvola
http://books.google.com/books?id=mAAIW0A0NqcC&pg=PA25&dq=philosopher+beard&cd=2#v=onepage&q=philosopher%20beard&f=false
The art of living: the Stoics on the nature and function of philosophy By John Sellars
http://books.google.com/books?id=9nSbJkGwV3YC&pg=PA15&dq=The+Art+of+living+Stoics+beard&hl=en&ei=UsEMTqj0F6efsQKxgrCpCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Art%20of%20living%20Stoics%20beard&f=false

If contemporary Christian men were beardless, or at least portrayed as beardless in idealistic portraits, that is probably again influence from Roman customs.

The Egyptians were normally beardless, although many of the Fayyum portraits-the only large catch of panel painting of antiquity which formed the basis of Orthodox iconography-show lots of beards as well, which was a Greek influence.
The Biblical and patristic doctrine is that men should wear beards.
The Patristics I've seen on the matter is just regurgitated Stoicism.  As for the Bible, if you are not going to shave on what it says, then you have to shave off your foreskin like it says.

In different times and places other customs prevailed, but these are aberrations that are tolerated by economy.
Says who?

For the record, I am normally clean shaven. Wink
I try, not always with success.
So, it was taught that you had to wear a beard. But what if I get up in the morning and do not shave. Does what I have constitute a beard? How long does the facial hair have to be in order to qualify?
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« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2011, 02:59:45 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct? 
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« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2011, 03:05:31 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct? 

No. The comment you are responding to is nonsense. See my above remarks.

lulz @ the Theotokos "following the eternally begotten rules regarding hair covering".

lulz @ modernist as well.

SubDeaconDavid, could you without googling give a coherent and concise definition of what "modernist" means, especially in regard to women's fashion? If not, don't use the "hot button" words.
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« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2011, 03:09:40 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct? 

No. The comment you are responding to is nonsense. See my above remarks.

lulz @ the Theotokos "following the eternally begotten rules regarding hair covering".

lulz @ modernist as well.

SubDeaconDavid, could you without googling give a coherent and concise definition of what "modernist" means, especially in regard to women's fashion? If not, don't use the "hot button" words.
No?
So the teaching of the Orthodox Church has changed ? And it is OK for women to follow the new teaching?
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« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2011, 03:17:16 PM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
The obsession with beards came with the Roman upper classes and their Stoicism.  Many (most?) images of contemporary Christians in the catacombs do not have beards.

What did Stoicism teach about beards? That one should wear them or not wear them?

You had to wear them.  It on the same level as abortion, homosexual acts and self multilation not to.  Natural law.

Dear brother Quinault,

Your concise description reinforces my belief of how utterly opposed ABC is to God's Natural Law.

I fail to see how. Is shaving opposed to this law, too?

A good point.  Pierced ears?  Breast implants?  Fertility drugs?  Gastric-bypass surgery?  Chemotherapy drugs?

I find it hard to distinguish where the line between allowed reinforcement and the limit of "God's Natural Law" is sometimes.
I don't see how any of these violates or impedes God's Natural Order.  Shaving? Huh  

LOL. St. Clement, one of the favorites for the quote mine for the Vatican on contraception, would point it out to you:
Ok...this may be a silly thing to ask, but what is the significance of wearing beards in Orthodoxy? Is it a clergy only thing, or do most laity in Orthodoxy keep a beard as well? I enjoy wearing a beard, but was just wondering if this is part of Orthodoxy for a significant reason, or is just a discipline that has developed over time. Thanks for any feedback.


“How womanly it is for one who is a man to shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect & to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, & smooth them! For God wished women to be smooth & to rejoice in their locks. But he adorned man like the lions, with a beard, & endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest, a sign of strength & rule.” Clement of Alexandria

'Nuff said.
I've always wondered how much this reflected the philosophical baggage St. Clement brought into the Church with him.
"The mask of Socrates: the image of the intellectual in antiquity" By Paul Zanker
http://books.google.com/books?id=2VxdRS6sCcgC&pg=PA108&dq=stoic+beards+shaving&cd=5#v=onepage&q&f=false

Natural law strikes again.
St. Clement goes on AT LENGTH about shaving violating the "natural order."

I always had the impression Roman patricians were clean-shaven ordinarily, at least going by their busts and statues, so if your point is that the Roman upper classes traditionally wore beards I think you would need to justify that claim with some evidence.
Quote
Shaving seems to have not been known to the Romans during their early history (under the Kings of Rome and the early Republic). Pliny tells us that P. Ticinius was the first who brought a barber to Rome, which was in the 454th year from the founding of the city (that is, around 299 BC). Scipio Africanus was apparently the first among the Romans who shaved his beard. However, after that point, shaving seems to have caught on very quickly, and soon almost all Roman men were clean-shaven; being clean-shaven became a sign of being Roman and not Greek. Only in the later times of the Republic did the Roman youth begin shaving their beards only partially, trimming it into an ornamental form; prepubescent boys oiled their chins in hopes of forcing premature growth of a beard.[14]

Still, beards remained rare among the Romans throughout the Late Republic and the early Principate. In a general way, in Rome at this time, a long beard was considered a mark of slovenliness and squalor. The censors L. Veturius and P. Licinius compelled M. Livius, who had been banished, on his restoration to the city, to be shaved, and to lay aside his dirty appearance, and then, but not until then, to come into the Senate.[15] The first occasion of shaving was regarded as the beginning of manhood, and the day on which this took place was celebrated as a festival.[16] Usually, this was done when the young Roman assumed the toga virilis. Augustus did it in his twenty-fourth year, Caligula in his twentieth. The hair cut off on such occasions was consecrated to a god. Thus Nero put his into a golden box set with pearls, and dedicated it to Jupiter Capitolinus.[17] The Romans, unlike the Greeks, let their beards grow in time of mourning; so did Augustus for the death of Julius Caesar.[18] Other occasions of mourning on which the beard was allowed to grow were, appearance as a reus, condemnation, or some public calamity. On the other hand, men of the country areas around Rome in the time of Varro seem not to have shaved except when they came to market every eighth day, so that their usual appearance was most likely a short stubble.[19]
In the second century AD the Emperor Hadrian, according to Dion Cassius, was the first of all the Caesars to grow a beard; Plutarch says that he did it to hide scars on his face. This was a period in Rome of widespread imitation of Greek culture, and many other men grew beards in imitation of Hadrian and the Greek fashion. Until the time of Constantine the Great the emperors appear in busts and coins with beards; but Constantine and his successors until the reign of Phocas, with the exception of Julian the Apostate, are represented as beardless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard#Ancient_Rome
On Nero:
Quote
He was likewise the first to establish at Rome a quinquennialb contest in three parts, after the Greek fashion, that is in music,33 gymnastics, and riding, which he called the Neronia; at the same time he dedicated his baths and gymnasium,34 supplying every member of the senatorial and equestrian orders with oil. To preside over35 the whole contest he appointed ex-consuls, chosen by lot, who occupied the seats of the praetors. Then he went down into the orchestra among the senators p107and accepted the prize for Latin oratory and verse, for which all the most eminent men had contended but which was given to him with their unanimous consent; but when that for lyre-playing was also offered him by the judges, he knelt before it and ordered that it be laid at the feet of Augustus' statue. 4 At the gymnastic contest, which he gave in the •Saepta, he shaved his first beard to the accompaniment of a splendid sacrifice of bullocks, put it in a golden box adorned with pearls of great price, and dedicated it in the Capitol. He invited the Vestal virgins also to witness the contests of the athletes,36 because at Olympia the priestesses of Ceres were allowed the same privilege.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Nero*.html
On Julian the Apostate:


On the philosophers' beard:
Ancient philosophy of the self By Pauliina Remes, Juha Sihvola
http://books.google.com/books?id=mAAIW0A0NqcC&pg=PA25&dq=philosopher+beard&cd=2#v=onepage&q=philosopher%20beard&f=false
The art of living: the Stoics on the nature and function of philosophy By John Sellars
http://books.google.com/books?id=9nSbJkGwV3YC&pg=PA15&dq=The+Art+of+living+Stoics+beard&hl=en&ei=UsEMTqj0F6efsQKxgrCpCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Art%20of%20living%20Stoics%20beard&f=false

If contemporary Christian men were beardless, or at least portrayed as beardless in idealistic portraits, that is probably again influence from Roman customs.

The Egyptians were normally beardless, although many of the Fayyum portraits-the only large catch of panel painting of antiquity which formed the basis of Orthodox iconography-show lots of beards as well, which was a Greek influence.
The Biblical and patristic doctrine is that men should wear beards.
The Patristics I've seen on the matter is just regurgitated Stoicism.  As for the Bible, if you are not going to shave on what it says, then you have to shave off your foreskin like it says.

In different times and places other customs prevailed, but these are aberrations that are tolerated by economy.
Says who?

For the record, I am normally clean shaven. Wink
I try, not always with success.
So, it was taught that you had to wear a beard. But what if I get up in the morning and do not shave. Does what I have constitute a beard? How long does the facial hair have to be in order to qualify?
you will have to ask those who care about such things.
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« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2011, 03:25:43 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc.  
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct?  

No. The comment you are responding to is nonsense. See my above remarks.

lulz @ the Theotokos "following the eternally begotten rules regarding hair covering".

lulz @ modernist as well.

SubDeaconDavid, could you without googling give a coherent and concise definition of what "modernist" means, especially in regard to women's fashion? If not, don't use the "hot button" words.
No?
So the teaching of the Orthodox Church has changed ? And it is OK for women to follow the new teaching?

I guess you will have to take this up with every Orthodox Priest I've met who is well educated in matters of Patristics. They don't seem to have a problem with it and see it as a matter of cultural piety. Nothing wrong with it. But it ain't binding either.

In our parish, folks recently from countries where Orthodoxy is more common wear them. Second and further generations do not. And the ueber-converts / catechumens / inquirers do wear them as well.

Americans have been know to appropriate their identity via consumption and window dressings.

When you all get through disparaging women who do cover their hair, I will print the official Orthodox stance and give it to my Priest's wife. She is first generation American cradle Orthodox and doesn't cover her head.

Anyway read my posts above, I already answered your question.  



Again, with these things we have St. Ambrose.
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« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2011, 09:41:34 PM »

But it ain't binding either.
So before 1950 or so, it was required for women to cover their heads while in (an Orthodox) Church. This was the teaching which was in effect for almost 2000 years and was based on Holy Scripture and the Tradition of the Orthodox Church.  Then a few years later, the Orthodox Church changed its teaching and introduced a novelty by saying that it was OK if women attended Church services without headcovering?
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« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2011, 09:52:41 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct? 

No. The comment you are responding to is nonsense. See my above remarks.

lulz @ the Theotokos "following the eternally begotten rules regarding hair covering".

lulz @ modernist as well.

SubDeaconDavid, could you without googling give a coherent and concise definition of what "modernist" means, especially in regard to women's fashion? If not, don't use the "hot button" words.
What is a hot button word?  By modernist I mean seeking to re-define the lived experience of Christian life to conform more closely to the norms of the world i.e. to make it relevant. In the Roman Church that was Vatican II and an attempt to bring the market-place into the church - songs instead of chant, clergy dressed as laymen outside of liturgy, women "special ministers" etc. In the Anglican Church it meant the ordination of women, gays and gay marriages advocated by some.  In Orthodoxy I would say the Living Church or Renovationist movement in Russia was modernism and it was rejected by the Church as contrary to tradition and faith.  Shortening services, pews, electric pipe organs in Greek churches,  beardless clergy and cassock-less clergy and ecumenism all bring the Church closer to the secular world, and arguably further from patristic Orthodoxy.  In themselves none of these outward signs may be inherently modernist - I suppose you could be conservative and advocate for some of these things.  There is however a risk of throwing away the baby with the bathwater just as there is a risk in saying that the teachings of St. Paul are only appropriate within a specific time, place and culture, rather than for all time.  And no, I did not google at all!
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« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2011, 09:57:06 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc.  
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct?  

No. The comment you are responding to is nonsense. See my above remarks.

lulz @ the Theotokos "following the eternally begotten rules regarding hair covering".

lulz @ modernist as well.

SubDeaconDavid, could you without googling give a coherent and concise definition of what "modernist" means, especially in regard to women's fashion? If not, don't use the "hot button" words.
What is a hot button word?  By modernist I mean seeking to re-define the lived experience of Christian life to conform more closely to the norms of the world i.e. to make it relevant. In the Roman Church that was Vatican II and an attempt to bring the market-place into the church - songs instead of chant, clergy dressed as laymen outside of liturgy, women "special ministers" etc. In the Anglican Church it meant the ordination of women, gays and gay marriages advocated by some.  In Orthodoxy I would say the Living Church or Renovationist movement in Russia was modernism and it was rejected by the Church as contrary to tradition and faith.  Shortening services, pews, electric pipe organs in Greek churches,  beardless clergy and cassock-less clergy and ecumenism all bring the Church closer to the secular world, and arguably further from patristic Orthodoxy.  In themselves none of these outward signs may be inherently modernist - I suppose you could be conservative and advocate for some of these things.  There is however a risk of throwing away the baby with the bathwater just as there is a risk in saying that the teachings of St. Paul are only appropriate within a specific time, place and culture, rather than for all time.  And no, I did not google at all!
How important is it that women cover their heads while at Orthodox Church services? I know that this is important and required in some Traditional R Catholic Churches, such as the SSPX, although the post Vatican II RCC does not require it.

Stanley, I understand that you have a number of questions about Orthodox faith and practice that vex your Roman Catholic sensibilities, but you need to realize, particularly after having been warned privately a few times, that the Faith Issues and Convert Issues boards are not appropriate places for you to ask such questions. You really need to save your questions for new or existing threads on the Orthodox-Catholic boards.

You were also instructed recently to start new threads to ask your off-topic questions. Yes, the questions you're asking here are perfectly on topic, but they're still not appropriate for this thread where it is on the Convert Issues board. Therefore, the instruction you received to ask your questions on new threads or on old threads where they're appropriate still apply. Since we moderators can't always follow you around to make sure you're asking questions in the right places, we need you to exercise more discernment and work harder to moderate your own posts.

To drive this point home, I am giving you this warning to last for the next two weeks. Please look at this as an opportunity to start practicing more discretion in your posting. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2011, 10:33:39 PM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.
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« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2011, 11:50:48 PM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.

Wow. Rhetorical fail on all accounts.
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« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2011, 11:52:45 PM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.
What? What? What?
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« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2011, 11:55:56 PM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.

Wow. Rhetorical fail on all accounts.

Really? How?
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« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2011, 11:56:47 PM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.

Wow. Rhetorical fail on all accounts.

Really? How?

Oh let me count the ways . . . When I have more time than to drop by before heading off to sleep.
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« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2011, 12:05:26 AM »

I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to men. There ARE no requirements for men that are comparable.

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads. When I first joined the charismatic church, I actually wore a headscarf for about a year. I got a lot of flak, ESPECIALLY from people from my church. Everyone constantly asked me if I was converting to Islam next.

I actually want to wear a scarf at the Orthodox church, but I confessed to my priest that I'm having trouble. First of all, I still struggle with dressing modestly. I know it's probably stupid to want to wear clothing that isn't modest, but I also like certain immodest styles. There, I said it. I wear modest clothes to church, but still just "don't feel right" about wearing the scarf. I also feel like it would be strange for me, as a catechumen, to wear it at a church where only a few women actually wear it.

I do not want to come off with a holier-than-thou attitude. My priest told me that when I'm ready, to just wear it. When I'm not self-aware and I have worked on the modesty issue, I will wear it. (I wear a small head scarf now, probably won't do the full one until I'm chrismated).

A large part of it is due to the culture in our country.

I know that I would be tempted to run around in the clothes that Muslim females wear in Egypt, Iran, etc, which I find beautiful. Part of me wishes that I could live in those countries so I wouldn't stand out as much.
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« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2011, 12:10:38 AM »

I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to men. There ARE no requirements for men that are comparable.

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads. When I first joined the charismatic church, I actually wore a headscarf for about a year. I got a lot of flak, ESPECIALLY from people from my church. Everyone constantly asked me if I was converting to Islam next.

I actually want to wear a scarf at the Orthodox church, but I confessed to my priest that I'm having trouble. First of all, I still struggle with dressing modestly. I know it's probably stupid to want to wear clothing that isn't modest, but I also like certain immodest styles. There, I said it. I wear modest clothes to church, but still just "don't feel right" about wearing the scarf. I also feel like it would be strange for me, as a catechumen, to wear it at a church where only a few women actually wear it.

I do not want to come off with a holier-than-thou attitude. My priest told me that when I'm ready, to just wear it. When I'm not self-aware and I have worked on the modesty issue, I will wear it. (I wear a small head scarf now, probably won't do the full one until I'm chrismated).

A large part of it is due to the culture in our country.

I know that I would be tempted to run around in the clothes that Muslim females wear in Egypt, Iran, etc, which I find beautiful. Part of me wishes that I could live in those countries so I wouldn't stand out as much.

This is called an honest and reasonable account of the issue as lived by women in this country.

Nice post IsmiLiora. Your personal voice and willingness to share the perceived "banalities" of your struggle with various aspects of the Faith are always enjoyable and rewarding to read.

You help bring real humanity to discussions that otherwise veer to the mere polemical.

Thanks.
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« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2011, 12:30:23 AM »

I guess my point is not expressed well.  Please forgive me.  I was trying to convey something that didn't come out right. I'll drop it now. 
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« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2011, 12:36:35 AM »

You help bring real humanity to discussions that otherwise veer to the mere polemical.
Ha, that's because I can't bring anything to the polemical side just yet! But your thoughts did bring a smile to my face. Thank you.
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« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2011, 12:44:41 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
So, the teaching of the Orthodox Church has not changed on this question and women are required by Holy Scripture and by the Tradition of the Church to wear headcovering in Church?  And those women who  do not follow this teaching are in serious disobedience to the Tradition and teaching of the Chuirch and in disobedience to the word of God as revealed in Holy Scripture? Would that be correct? 

No. The comment you are responding to is nonsense. See my above remarks.

lulz @ the Theotokos "following the eternally begotten rules regarding hair covering".

lulz @ modernist as well.

SubDeaconDavid, could you without googling give a coherent and concise definition of what "modernist" means, especially in regard to women's fashion? If not, don't use the "hot button" words.
What is a hot button word?  By modernist I mean seeking to re-define the lived experience of Christian life to conform more closely to the norms of the world i.e. to make it relevant. In the Roman Church that was Vatican II and an attempt to bring the market-place into the church - songs instead of chant, clergy dressed as laymen outside of liturgy, women "special ministers" etc. In the Anglican Church it meant the ordination of women, gays and gay marriages advocated by some.  In Orthodoxy I would say the Living Church or Renovationist movement in Russia was modernism and it was rejected by the Church as contrary to tradition and faith.  Shortening services, pews, electric pipe organs in Greek churches,  beardless clergy and cassock-less clergy and ecumenism all bring the Church closer to the secular world, and arguably further from patristic Orthodoxy.
 
From the middle of patristic Orthodoxy.

The traditional explanation is that St. Basil shortened St. James' DL, and St. John shortened St. Basil's DL.

Patristic Orthodoxy was closer to the secular world than you seem to want to admit.

In themselves none of these outward signs may be inherently modernist - I suppose you could be conservative and advocate for some of these things.  There is however a risk of throwing away the baby with the bathwater just as there is a risk in saying that the teachings of St. Paul are only appropriate within a specific time, place and culture, rather than for all time.  And no, I did not google at all!
You've been circumcized, no? Acts 16:3.
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« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2011, 12:47:23 AM »

But it ain't binding either.
So before 1950 or so, it was required for women to cover their heads while in (an Orthodox) Church. This was the teaching which was in effect for almost 2000 years and was based on Holy Scripture and the Tradition of the Orthodox Church.  Then a few years later, the Orthodox Church changed its teaching and introduced a novelty by saying that it was OK if women attended Church services without headcovering?
real burning issue with you, it seems. I never realized that St. Paul balanced the Gopsel on the top of women's heads.
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« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2011, 12:52:09 AM »

What would Darth Vader wear Tongue
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« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2011, 12:53:40 AM »

I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to men. There ARE no requirements for men that are comparable.

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads. When I first joined the charismatic church, I actually wore a headscarf for about a year. I got a lot of flak, ESPECIALLY from people from my church. Everyone constantly asked me if I was converting to Islam next.

I actually want to wear a scarf at the Orthodox church, but I confessed to my priest that I'm having trouble. First of all, I still struggle with dressing modestly. I know it's probably stupid to want to wear clothing that isn't modest, but I also like certain immodest styles. There, I said it. I wear modest clothes to church, but still just "don't feel right" about wearing the scarf. I also feel like it would be strange for me, as a catechumen, to wear it at a church where only a few women actually wear it.

I do not want to come off with a holier-than-thou attitude. My priest told me that when I'm ready, to just wear it. When I'm not self-aware and I have worked on the modesty issue, I will wear it. (I wear a small head scarf now, probably won't do the full one until I'm chrismated).

A large part of it is due to the culture in our country.

I know that I would be tempted to run around in the clothes that Muslim females wear in Egypt, Iran, etc, which I find beautiful. Part of me wishes that I could live in those countries so I wouldn't stand out as much.

"There ARE no requirements for men that are comparable." That rather begs the question of what is "comparable", doesn't it? I would say that, leaving aside what is culturally normal in everyday life, requiring (lay)men to be uncovered without exception, but allowing (lay)women to cover or not according to choice, expresses a kind of double standard in favor of women, does it not?

I assume what you are getting at is that in our culture, men are not normally required to wear hats in ordinary life, and in fact, most do not (at least not since JFK was president), so that in church, when men attend without head coverings, they are only continuing what is normal in their culture. Whereas women are not normally covered outside, so that when they are asked to cover in church, they are being asked to do something different from what is culturally normal.

All of this is culturally dependent, of course. And that explains the difficulty keeping the traditional rules in church, which explains why many pastors exercise economy in these circumstances. If your priest says it's OK not to cover your head, don't cover your head. Many in our church do the same.

However, none of this cultural contingency logically negates the notion that the requirement for women to be covered, and for men to be uncovered, is a part of Holy Tradition, sanctioned by the Holy Spirit. It is possible for something to be required by Tradition, but for economy to be exercised at certain times in recognition of the fact that in certain times and places it is more difficult to keep the traditional rules than in other times and places. Economy does not obviate the original standard.

Therefore, it is right for women to cover, regardless of what their peers are doing. Pastorally, I can see that sometimes it may be important to think about how covering one's head can lead to self-righteousness. But also, if one is abused for covering one's head, that could be interpreted as persecution for righteousness' sake. Only one's spiritual father can discern the difference.
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« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2011, 01:21:28 AM »

I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to men. There ARE no requirements for men that are comparable.

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads. When I first joined the charismatic church, I actually wore a headscarf for about a year. I got a lot of flak, ESPECIALLY from people from my church. Everyone constantly asked me if I was converting to Islam next.

I actually want to wear a scarf at the Orthodox church, but I confessed to my priest that I'm having trouble. First of all, I still struggle with dressing modestly. I know it's probably stupid to want to wear clothing that isn't modest, but I also like certain immodest styles. There, I said it. I wear modest clothes to church, but still just "don't feel right" about wearing the scarf. I also feel like it would be strange for me, as a catechumen, to wear it at a church where only a few women actually wear it.

I do not want to come off with a holier-than-thou attitude. My priest told me that when I'm ready, to just wear it. When I'm not self-aware and I have worked on the modesty issue, I will wear it. (I wear a small head scarf now, probably won't do the full one until I'm chrismated).

A large part of it is due to the culture in our country.

I know that I would be tempted to run around in the clothes that Muslim females wear in Egypt, Iran, etc, which I find beautiful. Part of me wishes that I could live in those countries so I wouldn't stand out as much.

"There ARE no requirements for men that are comparable." That rather begs the question of what is "comparable", doesn't it? I would say that, leaving aside what is culturally normal in everyday life, requiring (lay)men to be uncovered without exception, but allowing (lay)women to cover or not according to choice, expresses a kind of double standard in favor of women, does it not?

I assume what you are getting at is that in our culture, men are not normally required to wear hats in ordinary life, and in fact, most do not (at least not since JFK was president), so that in church, when men attend without head coverings, they are only continuing what is normal in their culture. Whereas women are not normally covered outside, so that when they are asked to cover in church, they are being asked to do something different from what is culturally normal.

All of this is culturally dependent, of course. And that explains the difficulty keeping the traditional rules in church, which explains why many pastors exercise economy in these circumstances. If your priest says it's OK not to cover your head, don't cover your head. Many in our church do the same.

However, none of this cultural contingency logically negates the notion that the requirement for women to be covered, and for men to be uncovered, is a part of Holy Tradition, sanctioned by the Holy Spirit. It is possible for something to be required by Tradition, but for economy to be exercised at certain times in recognition of the fact that in certain times and places it is more difficult to keep the traditional rules than in other times and places. Economy does not obviate the original standard.

Therefore, it is right for women to cover, regardless of what their peers are doing. Pastorally, I can see that sometimes it may be important to think about how covering one's head can lead to self-righteousness. But also, if one is abused for covering one's head, that could be interpreted as persecution for righteousness' sake. Only one's spiritual father can discern the difference.
Speaking of the original standard sanctioned by the Holy Spirit
Quote
Genesis 38:13 And when Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is going up to Timnah to shear his sheep," 14 she put off her widow's garments, and put on a veil, wrapping herself up, and sat at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah; for she saw that Shelah was grown up, and she had not been given to him in marriage. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be a harlot, for she had covered her face.
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16 He went over to her at the road side, and said, "Come, let me come in to you," for he did not know that she was his daughter-in-law. She said, "What will you give me, that you may come in to me?" 17 He answered, "I will send you a kid from the flock." And she said, "Will you give me a pledge, till you send it?" 18 He said, "What pledge shall I give you?" She replied, "Your signet and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand." So he gave them to her, and went in to her, and she conceived by him. 19 Then she arose and went away, and taking off her veil she put on the garments of her widowhood. 20 When Judah sent the kid by his friend the Adullamite, to receive the pledge from the woman's hand, he could not find her. 21 And he asked the men of the place, "Where is the harlot who was at Enaim by the wayside?" And they said, "No harlot has been here." 22 So he returned to Judah, and said, "I have not found her; and also the men of the place said, 'No harlot has been here.'" 23 And Judah replied, "Let her keep the things as her own, lest we be laughed at; you see, I sent this kid, and you could not find her." 24 About three months later Judah was told, "Tamar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot; and moreover she is with child by harlotry." And Judah said, "Bring her out, and let her be burned." 25 As she was being brought out, she sent word to her father-in-law, "By the man to whom these belong, I am with child." And she said, "Mark, I pray you, whose these are, the signet and the cord and the staff." 26 Then Judah acknowledged them and said, "She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah." And he did not lie with her again.

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« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2011, 01:32:53 AM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.
I have seen a Jewish man wearing a yarmulke at a Christian religious service and there were no complaints.
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« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2011, 08:35:24 AM »

Let's look at it from the other angle.  What if men came into Church (and I'm referring to the Orthodox Church since that's where I am) wearing a hat or baseball cap?  Why don't we ever talk about that?  Why is it so difficult for people to understand that a woman is required to cover, like it's a big controversy, but not look at the other gender?  I've never seen men argue about wearing a hat.  Maybe I missed some posts, but the point is, the fact that there's so much debate about women covering, then it must be something of a spiritual dilemma.  Our souls must be struggling with something in order to be debating this all the time.
I have seen a Jewish man wearing a yarmulke at a Christian religious service and there were no complaints.

I'm referring to Orthodox laymen in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2011, 09:27:03 AM »

Those passages from Genesis involve covering the face, not the hair. The purpose of the head-covering, in any case, is not because the woman's head is impure, but precisely the opposite. Because the woman's head and hair is her glory, it must be protected from the lustful glances of men. Submission and protection are two sides of the same coin.
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« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2011, 09:40:14 AM »

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads.

I'm probably showing my age here, but my Lutheran and Baptist great-grandmothers, my Lutheran and RC grandmothers (and my mother also) always wore a hat to church. (And gloves). Not that long ago, in the South, hats were a normal part of a woman's church-going attire, and are still the norm in many, if not most, African-American congregations.

(Actually, my great-grandmothers would never have even thought about "going to town" without a hat and gloves. In the summer. In South Carolina. Without air-conditioning.

Whew!)
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« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2011, 10:15:29 AM »

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads.

I'm probably showing my age here, but my Lutheran and Baptist great-grandmothers, my Lutheran and RC grandmothers (and my mother also) always wore a hat to church. (And gloves). Not that long ago, in the South, hats were a normal part of a woman's church-going attire, and are still the norm in many, if not most, African-American congregations.

(Actually, my great-grandmothers would never have even thought about "going to town" without a hat and gloves. In the summer. In South Carolina. Without air-conditioning.

Whew!)

"Crowns" are a tradition in the South and in black congregations throughout America as you say. Black men wearing hats to Church is common as well, just not within it.

This is absolutely correct.

Always glad to hear the voice of the South on here. 
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« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2011, 10:29:34 AM »

Always glad to hear the voice of the South on here. 

Well, it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it, and I feel uniquely qualified to do so!
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« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2011, 10:44:14 AM »

Those passages from Genesis involve covering the face, not the hair.
So she covered her face but was bare headed. OK. So if she wears a headcovering, that is all she needs to wear. So this is OK

http://img2.allvoices.com/thumbs/image/609/480/25187575-playboy-sorry.jpg
The purpose of the head-covering, in any case, is not because the woman's head is impure, but precisely the opposite.

No one said anything about a women's head being impure, except you.
Because the woman's head and hair is her glory, it must be protected from the lustful glances of men.

Doesn't seem to have worked for Tamar.  Maybe we should have put dark glasses on Judah instead.

I get this "reasoning" from Muslims all the time. Having seen whores in veils (in Saudi Arabia they look like this

like any other woman), and veiled women getting cat calls etc., it doesn't live up to its promises.  The onus of Islam's modesty has been put on women to carry, leaving the men to, well "boys will be boys."  Covered female heads isn't the cure all it is advertised. And I still haven't gotten an explanation of how this is linked to slacks.

Submission and protection are two sides of the same coin.
No, that's the same side of that coin: male self restraint and guardianship of the eyes is the other side.
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« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2011, 11:11:01 AM »

Those passages from Genesis involve covering the face, not the hair.
So she covered her face but was bare headed. OK. So if she wears a headcovering, that is all she needs to wear. So this is OK

http://img2.allvoices.com/thumbs/image/609/480/25187575-playboy-sorry.jpg

If I didn't know better I'd think you were being deliberately obtuse. Where does it say Tamar's head was uncovered? And the Playboy girl's headcovering is not the problem here; it's the lack of any other clothes.

Quote
The purpose of the head-covering, in any case, is not because the woman's head is impure, but precisely the opposite.

No one said anything about a women's head being impure, except you.

So that quotation from St Paul about purity was completely irrelevant to the conversation then? You know, in normal human conversation it is customary to be relevant.

Quote
Because the woman's head and hair is her glory, it must be protected from the lustful glances of men.

Doesn't seem to have worked for Tamar.  Maybe we should have put dark glasses on Judah instead.

I get this "reasoning" from Muslims all the time. Having seen whores in veils (in Saudi Arabia they look like this

like any other woman), and veiled women getting cat calls etc., it doesn't live up to its promises.  The onus of Islam's modesty has been put on women to carry, leaving the men to, well "boys will be boys."  Covered female heads isn't the cure all it is advertised. And I still haven't gotten an explanation of how this is linked to slacks.

No one said men shouldn't do their part. I, or rather Christian tradition, is just saying women should do theirs. And why do you keep bringing up veils? They have no part in Christian tradition and are irrelevant to the conversation. Maybe headcoverings are, too, but I wasn't the one to bring them up. If you want to talk about slacks, let's talk about slacks.

Quote
Submission and protection are two sides of the same coin.
No, that's the same side of that coin: male self restraint and guardianship of the eyes is the other side.


Again, you seem to be going out of your way to sound like an idiot. What I'm referring to is the fact that modesty, as represented by the headcovering, is not just about women being submissive. It is about being protected. Women normally like the idea of being protected, but not the idea of being submissive, but you can't have one without the other. Just like men normally like the idea of being in charge, but not the idea of being responsible. Everything has a price.
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« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2011, 11:20:17 AM »

Jonathan,

You are all over the map for apologies for head coverings. ialmisry is just pointing that out.

Make a coherent argument. Bullet point it, if you like, but you are just jumping from one apology to the next and often clumsily so.

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« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2011, 11:34:27 AM »

What is a hot button word?  By modernist I mean seeking to re-define the lived experience of Christian life to conform more closely to the norms of the world i.e. to make it relevant. In the Roman Church that was Vatican II and an attempt to bring the market-place into the church - songs instead of chant, clergy dressed as laymen outside of liturgy, women "special ministers" etc. In the Anglican Church it meant the ordination of women, gays and gay marriages advocated by some.  In Orthodoxy I would say the Living Church or Renovationist movement in Russia was modernism and it was rejected by the Church as contrary to tradition and faith.  Shortening services, pews, electric pipe organs in Greek churches,  beardless clergy and cassock-less clergy and ecumenism all bring the Church closer to the secular world, and arguably further from patristic Orthodoxy.  In themselves none of these outward signs may be inherently modernist - I suppose you could be conservative and advocate for some of these things.  There is however a risk of throwing away the baby with the bathwater just as there is a risk in saying that the teachings of St. Paul are only appropriate within a specific time, place and culture, rather than for all time.  And no, I did not google at all!

Modernist is a hot-button word. Toss in Western, Scholastic, etc.

From your definition you mean something making contemporary (fitting to the age). Well sorry to let you in on this tidbit, but the Church has been doing since the beginning in matters large and small.

The question is whether what is changing helpful or harmful. It is just that simple. Are the changes in line within the scope of Scripture, then Liturgy, then Patristics, then Canons, then icons.

Again read my posts above. The earliest Christians did "conform" to the world the source of some of those hangers-on of lifestyle you think are "Orthodox" (Unless you are currently in the Desert, don't use the Desert Fathers as the example for the typical Christian). They are the Christening of secular culture by the Church. Some folks just want to role play the conformity to the world of a centuries past and of other cultures. It's fun and you get to stand out.

Beardless Priest -> Gay Marriage. Slippery slope much?

If that is the best you have, I am through.

And yes, St. Paul's letter are to a specific place and time. Once we understand that, then we can begin to see the relevance to our lives. But that is just what a buncha Priests tell me including ones whose vocation has been to educate other Priests.





 

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« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2011, 12:22:19 PM »

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads.

I'm probably showing my age here, but my Lutheran and Baptist great-grandmothers, my Lutheran and RC grandmothers (and my mother also) always wore a hat to church. (And gloves). Not that long ago, in the South, hats were a normal part of a woman's church-going attire, and are still the norm in many, if not most, African-American congregations.

(Actually, my great-grandmothers would never have even thought about "going to town" without a hat and gloves. In the summer. In South Carolina. Without air-conditioning.

Whew!)
Very true! I was raised in the North, and the wearing of hats at my church went back about a generation or two. No one at our church, even the most pious women (well, except for the nuns Cheesy) covered their heads. No one.
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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2011, 03:02:55 PM »

And in the U.S., I would assume that our "struggle" with not wearing it is because of the culture. Women typically do not veil or cover their heads.

I'm probably showing my age here, but my Lutheran and Baptist great-grandmothers, my Lutheran and RC grandmothers (and my mother also) always wore a hat to church. (And gloves). Not that long ago, in the South, hats were a normal part of a woman's church-going attire, and are still the norm in many, if not most, African-American congregations.

(Actually, my great-grandmothers would never have even thought about "going to town" without a hat and gloves. In the summer. In South Carolina. Without air-conditioning.

Whew!)


My grandmothers were of the same persuasion and they hailed from Atlanta, Georgia which gets hot and humid in the summer.
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« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2011, 03:06:44 PM »

...

Therefore, it is right for women to cover, regardless of what their peers are doing. Pastorally, I can see that sometimes it may be important to think about how covering one's head can lead to self-righteousness. But also, if one is abused for covering one's head, that could be interpreted as persecution for righteousness' sake. Only one's spiritual father can discern the difference.

Women here in Southern California New Calendar parishes are criticized by other women for wearing head coverings. These other women are usually in their 40s to late 70s. The women who are choosing to cover are usually younger women between 15 to 40. Go figure.

Some of the comments directed at the women who choose to cover (including me and I only wear a communion scarf) are:
UberOrthodox
Convertitis, a little?
etc.
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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2011, 05:50:33 PM »

...

Therefore, it is right for women to cover, regardless of what their peers are doing. Pastorally, I can see that sometimes it may be important to think about how covering one's head can lead to self-righteousness. But also, if one is abused for covering one's head, that could be interpreted as persecution for righteousness' sake. Only one's spiritual father can discern the difference.

Women here in Southern California New Calendar parishes are criticized by other women for wearing head coverings. These other women are usually in their 40s to late 70s. The women who are choosing to cover are usually younger women between 15 to 40. Go figure.

Some of the comments directed at the women who choose to cover (including me and I only wear a communion scarf) are:
UberOrthodox
Convertitis, a little?
etc.

A woman at our church was talking about how women who cover their heads get insulted in new calendar churches. Of course, I wouldn't extrapolate from this that this always occurs in new calendar churches, but to this woman it was representative of their attitude. If you wore a scarf, even to receive communion, you would be called "wannabe nun" and things like that.

While it is true that covering one's head can lead to a kind of pride, just as observing the fasts can make you feel superior to those who do not, this kind of situation can also be taken as an opportunity to suffer a little persecution for righteousness' sake. It's possible to look on the bright side, in other words. Smiley
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« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2011, 06:41:20 PM »

...

Therefore, it is right for women to cover, regardless of what their peers are doing. Pastorally, I can see that sometimes it may be important to think about how covering one's head can lead to self-righteousness. But also, if one is abused for covering one's head, that could be interpreted as persecution for righteousness' sake. Only one's spiritual father can discern the difference.

Women here in Southern California New Calendar parishes are criticized by other women for wearing head coverings. These other women are usually in their 40s to late 70s. The women who are choosing to cover are usually younger women between 15 to 40. Go figure.

Some of the comments directed at the women who choose to cover (including me and I only wear a communion scarf) are:
UberOrthodox
Convertitis, a little?
etc.

A woman at our church was talking about how women who cover their heads get insulted in new calendar churches. Of course, I wouldn't extrapolate from this that this always occurs in new calendar churches, but to this woman it was representative of their attitude. If you wore a scarf, even to receive communion, you would be called "wannabe nun" and things like that.

While it is true that covering one's head can lead to a kind of pride, just as observing the fasts can make you feel superior to those who do not, this kind of situation can also be taken as an opportunity to suffer a little persecution for righteousness' sake. It's possible to look on the bright side, in other words. Smiley
How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?
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« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2011, 06:53:56 PM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
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« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2011, 07:28:09 PM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
So insulting a wonderful, devout and beautiful Orthodox Christian lady is no big deal???
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« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2011, 07:56:57 PM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
So insulting a wonderful, devout and beautiful Orthodox Christian lady is no big deal???

How is that insulting? If everyone doesn't make a fuss over it, there ain't nothing to talk about. If my point wasn't clear, that was it.

I thought you were asking in general why don't Priests address the issue and come down on one side or another in mixed parishes.

Sorry for the possible miscommunication.

The parish I go to I guess is very diverse and my Priest encourages a personal development of piety within certain limits. Never heard anyone really complain or comment other than to ask questions about Old World traditions and comparing various traditions in the light of interest and community.
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« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2011, 01:01:37 AM »

How come the priests don't comment on this during their sermons? Or do they?

Because most sane people understand it ain't no big deal if it is a mixed parish (some wearing head covering and others not).
So insulting a wonderful, devout and beautiful Orthodox Christian lady is no big deal???

How is that insulting? If everyone doesn't make a fuss over it, there ain't nothing to talk about. If my point wasn't clear, that was it.

I thought you were asking in general why don't Priests address the issue and come down on one side or another in mixed parishes.

Sorry for the possible miscommunication.

The parish I go to I guess is very diverse and my Priest encourages a personal development of piety within certain limits. Never heard anyone really complain or comment other than to ask questions about Old World traditions and comparing various traditions in the light of interest and community.


If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.
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« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2011, 01:41:57 AM »

If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.

Clairvoyance now?  Roll Eyes

I hear nothing during the DL or anywhere. I am so hyper attentive to be nearly psychic (that's how I know you are not). The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.

But sorry, there ain't.

You lose and I do as well.  //:=|

If you would like, please feel free to PM me and if you are ever in town, you can go to my parish and judge the remarkable women who go there and a man who is beloved within our parish and without and who has incredible integrity.







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« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2011, 12:44:51 PM »

If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.

Clairvoyance now?  Roll Eyes

I hear nothing during the DL or anywhere. I am so hyper attentive to be nearly psychic (that's how I know you are not). The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.

But sorry, there ain't.

You lose and I do as well.  //:=|

If you would like, please feel free to PM me and if you are ever in town, you can go to my parish and judge the remarkable women who go there and a man who is beloved within our parish and without and who has incredible integrity.









Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches. Maria seems to have witnessed such a thing, and Eleni at my church has witnessed such things. Are we just supposed to take your word for it that everything is hunky-dory everywhere?

The right dynamic should be that women should cover their heads, but if some women find it uncomfortable, they shouldn't be forced if it causes them to leave church completely. The wrong dynamic is when not covering one's head becomes the new norm, and the covered women are made to feel uncomfortable, which would result in them thinking about leaving.
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« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2011, 01:53:38 PM »

If you are a male and of course are not covering, then you would not hear these snarky remarks whispered into the ears of devout head-covering women during the Divine Liturgy. And the women making these remarks are on the parish council. The priest, of course, avoids the subject because he does not want to be fired by the parish council or suffer a demotion in salary. That does happen in Greek and OCA parishes.

Clairvoyance now?  Roll Eyes

I hear nothing during the DL or anywhere. I am so hyper attentive to be nearly psychic (that's how I know you are not). The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.

But sorry, there ain't.

You lose and I do as well.  //:=|

If you would like, please feel free to PM me and if you are ever in town, you can go to my parish and judge the remarkable women who go there and a man who is beloved within our parish and without and who has incredible integrity.









Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches. Maria seems to have witnessed such a thing, and Eleni at my church has witnessed such things. Are we just supposed to take your word for it that everything is hunky-dory everywhere?

The right dynamic should be that women should cover their heads, but if some women find it uncomfortable, they shouldn't be forced if it causes them to leave church completely. The wrong dynamic is when not covering one's head becomes the new norm, and the covered women are made to feel uncomfortable, which would result in them thinking about leaving.

I originally had decided to become involved with ROCOR partly because I knew they require women to cover their heads in church. My olnly other experience with Christianity was Traditional RCism, where women also must cover and I fully agree with it. The Orthodox church I ended up going to (due to dtravel issues) does not have any women who cover except one who doesn't come all the time, so maybe I will be the first.
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« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2011, 03:59:53 PM »


Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches. Maria seems to have witnessed such a thing, and Eleni at my church has witnessed such things. Are we just supposed to take your word for it that everything is hunky-dory everywhere?

The right dynamic should be that women should cover their heads, but if some women find it uncomfortable, they shouldn't be forced if it causes them to leave church completely. The wrong dynamic is when not covering one's head becomes the new norm, and the covered women are made to feel uncomfortable, which would result in them thinking about leaving.

As I noted up thread, it also goes the other way. I have been publicly singled out *by the priest* for not covering their head, when I generally wore one but forgot my scarf one day (in a parish where there maybe 50% covered) and in the same parish, I saw women who didn't ever wear one also be publicly singled out by the priest, which I think everyone would agree is the wrong way to go about it. The priest had no rhyme or reason for who he singled out for not wearing a head covering.

The one parish I've been told of where women are told NOT to wear a head covering is so weird in other aspects that it's just a part of the whole of that parish's strangeness.

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« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2011, 05:02:36 PM »

Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches.

Do you read posts before responding? She was talking to ME personally and about the Parish I attend. And I don't think, I know.

Of course it goes on elsewhere, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist where people want a yes or no answer for all women for all time, or offer up come sorta "economy" concerning a cultural tradition.

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« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »

Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches.

Do you read posts before responding? She was talking to ME personally and about the Parish I attend. And I don't think, I know.

Of course it goes on elsewhere, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist where people want a yes or no answer for all women for all time, or offer up come sorta "economy" concerning a cultural tradition.



Re-reading her post it still seems to me she was talking about Greek and OCA parishes in a general sense, which is why I thought it was strange you then started to generalize from your own parish. Where was she speaking of your parish specifically?

Calling it just a "cultural tradition" fails to account for the fact that St Paul explicitly instructs women to cover, and that head-covering is a universal Orthodox tradition in all cultures, whether Greek, Russian, Serbian, Arab or whatever you like. Nor the fact that it was just as common in the West until recently. The fact that head-covering for women in church is a universal tradition in Orthodoxy is not in question here. What is in question is where economy can be exercised in the light of very recent cultural developments that pressure women to avoid head-covering.
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« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2011, 07:58:10 PM »

I went to an Albanian Orthodox church, and only one woman had her head covered (and I think she might have been a Russian visitor, based on her accent.) This led me, as a new inquirer into Orthodoxy, to assume that maybe head coverings for women were a Russian custom, not a rule for all Orthodox. I also went to a Greek Orthodox church, and there, not one woman had her head covered. I didn't cover, even though I had brought something for that...but I felt bad the whole time since I had always been taught (Traditional RC) to cover when in church because of the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

Now that I know better, I am going to cover my head no matter what Orthodox church I go to.
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »

Your church is not the only church in Orthodoxy. Just because you don't think it happens where you are, as if you would know whether this kind of gossip and judging goes on among the women, doesn't mean it doesn't go on in other churches.

Do you read posts before responding? She was talking to ME personally and about the Parish I attend. And I don't think, I know.

Of course it goes on elsewhere, otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist where people want a yes or no answer for all women for all time, or offer up come sorta "economy" concerning a cultural tradition.



No, I was speaking from general experience in both Greek and OCA parishes. I still do not know if you are male or female (that really does not matter anyway) or what parish you attend, so how can know all about your parish? Father Tillman gave a retreat where he talked about his experience as a pastor in the OCA. He shared that he had to apply for food stamps because the parish would not give him a salary that was adequate. Unfortunately, that is not an isolated occurrence.
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2011, 01:27:37 AM »

Now that I know better, I am going to cover my head no matter what Orthodox church I go to.

Know better than what? That some people on the internet think covering your head is some theological truth?

If you do decide to take a strident stance, I hope you are able to answer for it.

And I sincerely would be interested in hearing your reason for it, as no one here has provided any.

Again: St. Ambrose.
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« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2011, 04:24:36 PM »

Now that I know better, I am going to cover my head no matter what Orthodox church I go to.

Know better than what? That some people on the internet think covering your head is some theological truth?

If you do decide to take a strident stance, I hope you are able to answer for it.

And I sincerely would be interested in hearing your reason for it, as no one here has provided any.

Again: St. Ambrose.

I feel that women should cover their head out of respect for the house of God. In my family there are two very traditional religious backgrounds where women covering their heads is the norm, not an aberration. I'm not going to tell others that they have to, but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.
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« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2011, 04:31:02 PM »

Quote from: Xenia1918
...but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.

I fee the same way.  I started covering from the first time I started going to the Greek Church (Old Calendar) and it just wouldn't feel right to be uncovered. Afterwards, I went to ROCOR and many did there too.   It's before God not before people that counts. 
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« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »

Quote from: Xenia1918
...but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.

I fee the same way.  I started covering from the first time I started going to the Greek Church (Old Calendar) and it just wouldn't feel right to be uncovered. Afterwards, I went to ROCOR and many did there too.   It's before God not before people that counts. 

I agree (after a few times attending at the local parish, I finally decided to cover my head today, and don't you know that is when Father decided to call me up after Liturgy to introduce me to everyone and I'm the ONLY woman with her head covered, lol!)
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« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2011, 05:17:06 PM »

Quote from: Xenia1918
...but I feel awkward and out of place if I don't.

I fee the same way.  I started covering from the first time I started going to the Greek Church (Old Calendar) and it just wouldn't feel right to be uncovered. Afterwards, I went to ROCOR and many did there too.   It's before God not before people that counts. 

I agree (after a few times attending at the local parish, I finally decided to cover my head today, and don't you know that is when Father decided to call me up after Liturgy to introduce me to everyone and I'm the ONLY woman with her head covered, lol!)

Maybe he wanted to make you a positive example.  Priests need to be careful how they approach the subject so that a person will not feel like they are being lectured.  Or mybe I'm reading too much into it.
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« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2011, 07:02:37 PM »

The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.


This does sting, probably because I get accused of this a lot.

Call me a nosy anthropologist hipster, whatever, I've worked and lived with different cultures in different countries and I really appreciate some of their practices and traditions. I think it's a little ridiculous that I cannot participate because of the family that I was born into (hah, I'm not upper class now, not by a long shot) or because I'm 1st generation American (part from Eastern European blood...have been in the region about 7 times). I do draw the line, as I do not walk around in hejab, native american headdresses, or wearing military uniforms. But I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating the tradition, especially in our own faith, as long as we're not dictating or judging other women who aren't wearing the scarf as laypeople.
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« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2011, 08:06:53 PM »

The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.


This does sting, probably because I get accused of this a lot.

Call me a nosy anthropologist hipster, whatever, I've worked and lived with different cultures in different countries and I really appreciate some of their practices and traditions. I think it's a little ridiculous that I cannot participate because of the family that I was born into (hah, I'm not upper class now, not by a long shot) or because I'm 1st generation American (part from Eastern European blood...have been in the region about 7 times). I do draw the line, as I do not walk around in hejab, native american headdresses, or wearing military uniforms. But I don't think there's anything wrong with appreciating the tradition, especially in our own faith, as long as we're not dictating or judging other women who aren't wearing the scarf as laypeople.

Without adding to the conversation re covering, I will +1 this, being one of those people that prefers the culture of others to that he was born into.
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« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2011, 09:31:50 PM »

The most judgmental person at my parish is me and there is nothing I would like more than to find a woman willing to engage with me in throwing stones at middle-class hipsters pretending to be Eastern European peasants. I am sorta catty like that.


This does sting, probably because I get accused of this a lot.

Oh IsmiLiora!

Don't be stung! You miss quoted me. Your forgot: //:=|

It was meant to be more self-deprecating than you-deprecating, not completely I suppose //:=|
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« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2011, 09:34:18 PM »

Without adding to the conversation re covering, I will +1 this, being one of those people that prefers the culture of others to that he was born into.

Well you are Australian. Do I really need to bring him out? //:=|
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« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2011, 10:02:45 PM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.
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« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2011, 10:24:09 PM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.
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« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2011, 10:45:52 PM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.

Its the word for the veil worn at Traditional Latin Masses...I think I still have mine somewhere!

http://www.adoremusbooks.com/productimageslarge/76/76348.jpg
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« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2011, 11:36:13 PM »

Without adding to the conversation re covering, I will +1 this, being one of those people that prefers the culture of others to that he was born into.

Well you are Australian. Do I really need to bring him out? //:=|

Another +1, hahah.
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« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2011, 12:28:39 AM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.

Its the word for the veil worn at Traditional Latin Masses...I think I still have mine somewhere!

http://www.adoremusbooks.com/productimageslarge/76/76348.jpg

I have made a few mantillas. I have one in white trimmed with a white bridal lace that is awesome. Then I have another in forest green lace (the less expensive craft lace). However, I found some pretty multicolored Eastern European ribbon with a green border and sewed that on. It is very pretty and cool in the summer months.

The word mantilla is from the Spanish. The ladies in Spain and in Mexico used to wear very long lace mantillas.
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« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2011, 01:32:25 AM »

If worse comes to worse, you could just remove the mantilla and towel-snap any smart-alecs, then put it right back.

Learned a new word today.

Its the word for the veil worn at Traditional Latin Masses...I think I still have mine somewhere!

http://www.adoremusbooks.com/productimageslarge/76/76348.jpg

I have made a few mantillas. I have one in white trimmed with a white bridal lace that is awesome. Then I have another in forest green lace (the less expensive craft lace). However, I found some pretty multicolored Eastern European ribbon with a green border and sewed that on. It is very pretty and cool in the summer months.

The word mantilla is from the Spanish. The ladies in Spain and in Mexico used to wear very long lace mantillas.

Now ain't girl talk much more funner than arguing over pious minutia? (no sarcasm). This is the sorta talk I hear in my parish. Women and men from a variety of backgrounds discussing how they and their families have lived out their faith and creating a community from many corners of the earth. And for the record, I would probably be in chit chat with the women, so I meant no condescension by my remarks about girl talk.

And in these matters, there ain't no wrong answers. Maybe a woman decides to start wearing a head covering given to her after such a discussion made by a fellow parishioner.

Lenten traditions and recipes passed back and forth including Lenten foods from "converts".

It is in this spirit that I hope a parish would live.

No brow-beating or back-biting. Just sharing how the faith is lived out within the worlds each come within the larger context of the Truth of the Gospel.

And FWIW, if you want to convert someone to wearing a head covering or your entire parish, one talk at a time about how it fits into the story of your life and offering gifts goes a lot farther than pointing to a single and very odd verse in the Scriptures.

At least that is what I observe other people doing, while I carry-on atop my soapbox.

Has something to do with love and patient and kindness or something.

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« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2011, 05:24:12 AM »



Now ain't girl talk much more funner than arguing over pious minutia? (no sarcasm). 



"Pious minutia"?

I don't think so!

What other instructions in St. Paul's epistles has been relegated to the status of minutiae? This is a slippery slope you're sliding. You sound rather like a Protestant I think.

Some "Old World" traditions are actually Orthodox Christian cultural Traditions and are meant to be kept.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle."
- II Thessalonians 2:9-15

"(W)e command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you;"
- II Thessalonians 3:3-7

"These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."
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« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2011, 09:17:22 AM »



Now ain't girl talk much more funner than arguing over pious minutia? (no sarcasm). 



"Pious minutia"?

I don't think so!

What other instructions in St. Paul's epistles has been relegated to the status of minutiae?
That men should have their heads uncovered.  What's with the Eastern clerical headgear, including mitres?

This is a slippery slope you're sliding. You sound rather like a Protestant I think.

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« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2011, 10:01:07 AM »


Oh IsmiLiora!

Don't be stung! You miss quoted me. Your forgot: //:=|

It was meant to be more self-deprecating than you-deprecating, not completely I suppose //:=|
I know you weren't directing it at any of us, but it's a comment that made me go "OUCH" anyway. I know I'm not quite hipster level of obnoxious yet, so I'll let it go for the moment.  Wink   Cheesy
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« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2011, 10:47:24 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

There is an icon in which St. Mary the Virgin is shown with her hair down as a maiden might wear it.  It is the "Help in Birth-Giving" and it can be seen and read about at the site of St. John the Baptist ROCOR in Washington D.C.   http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/english.htm  Under
"Icons of the Mother of God" with the date of December 26/Jan 8
http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/icons/theotokos_other/help_birth.jpg

Ebor
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« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2011, 10:51:05 AM »

Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time,

"Traditional female clothing" from what time and place? There's a lot of human history and differences

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« Reply #122 on: July 04, 2011, 02:15:28 PM »

Ok Ebor, you're right about one, but it's an exception to the rule.  It seems to me that examples of exceptions are used to usurp the rule.  My question is why does the iconographer choose to write this icon with her uncovered?  Who wrote this icon?  I'd appreciate a theological explanation of this depiction.
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« Reply #123 on: July 04, 2011, 02:43:52 PM »

This topic has gone to, thru, around, and branched in many directions far beyond the parameters of the Convert Issues Board "simple answers with resources" You are welcome to divide your many topics enclosed in this topic and develop them further in another forum [perhaps faith issues forum]. This topic is closed in the Convert Issues Forum.

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