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Xenia1918
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« on: June 28, 2011, 01:16:40 PM »

Is it a rule or custom in some ethnicities for women to have their heads covered during Divine Liturgy? Before attending my first Divine Liturgy, I familiarized myself primarily with ROCOR, since that is where I felt I would most belong. However, due to transportation and related problems, I've founded it necessary to attend closer to home, and in the two different Orthodox churches I have been to so far, none of them had women covering their heads, but I know the Russians do.

Can anyone tell me if its a rule or custom? Would it be OK if I covered my head anyway, even if no other woman is?
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 01:27:49 PM »

I don't know of any priest who will tell you NOT to cover your head (oh, wait, I do - but it was second-hand info). So, it's up to you to do it at a parish where other women don't cover. Just depends on your comfort level. Ask the priest, as well.

Frankly, it might be best, at least for a while, to do as other women in your parish do.

You might feel more comfortable in a hat rather than a scarf, at first. Nice straw hat with a scarf or wide ribbon wrapped around the crown, tied in a bow in back, and ends trailing down a bit?

In my OCA parish, a very few women cover. There's one ROCOR family that comes occasionally. They wore their scarves at first, but don't now. I'm sure they wear them when at the ROCOR parish.

Frankly, being dressed modestly is more of an issue than women covering their heads, in my experience. It's always startling to see a woman dressed scantily, in a hoochie-mama short skirt and showing lots of cleavage or in very tight pants - but topped with a head scarf. These are mostly foreign-born women who were taught you always have to have your head covered in church, but somehow the dressing modestly lesson was skipped. Shocked
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kazakage
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2011, 01:34:33 PM »

Y not? Maybe other women will also get inspired Grin
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 01:49:16 PM »

I totally agree about the modesty in dress too! The only religions I've ever been involved in were Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Roman Catholicism, and both stress modesty in dress to a great degree as well as head coverings, so I'm very used to it and believe in it. When I read the dress requirements at the website for my local ROCOR parish, I knew I would fit right in....my problem is getting there (long story).
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 02:07:14 PM »

Our priest encourages it as a pious practice for women, but does not require it. Some women in our parish do, some don't. I do. Oddly enough, it serves as a reminder of where I am and why, for the same reason, I guess, that I wear a cross. I don't wear a cross to show other people I'm a Christian - I wear it to remind myself that I'm one and to try to act accordingly! Grin

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joasia
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 06:48:29 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 08:08:20 PM »

modesty of course is paramount...but, as a catechumen i began to feel strongly about covering even though no one else did in our small OCA church...i talked w our priest and he gave me his blessing...so i began by first coming in and kissing the icon then going to my seat...until then i only had my scarf around my neck...once settled in my place i pulled the scarf up over my head and left it there until i left church...eventually i grew more comfortable and began entering the church with the scarf over my head...now 2 other women cover their head as well Wink

i also cover at home when praying...i am tempted to cover all day....

Georgianna
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 08:49:55 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice. One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

One these many tricky things where there is a traditional standard, but for pastoral reasons it may not always be a good idea to enforce it rigidly. That being said, excessive immodesty can also be a sign of bad pastorship. Something I suppose for which we are meant to use discernment. Tongue
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ialmisry
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 09:14:02 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 09:18:41 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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Xenia1918
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 09:37:49 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.
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joasia
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2011, 10:28:57 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2011, 10:39:11 PM »

I once asked my priest out of curiosity.  Where we have Liturgy the woman chooses whether to cover her head or not.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2011, 10:41:35 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
I don't see why he wouldn't allow slacks on Sundays, or any day for that matter.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2011, 10:43:54 PM »

Is it a rule or custom in some ethnicities for women to have their heads covered during Divine Liturgy? Before attending my first Divine Liturgy, I familiarized myself primarily with ROCOR, since that is where I felt I would most belong. However, due to transportation and related problems, I've founded it necessary to attend closer to home, and in the two different Orthodox churches I have been to so far, none of them had women covering their heads, but I know the Russians do.

Can anyone tell me if its a rule or custom? Would it be OK if I covered my head anyway, even if no other woman is?

My priest told me that it would be okay to wear a scarf or lacy veil (mantilla) just prior to receiving Holy Communion.
In that way, it would be more acceptable to those women who are militantly against wearing any head covering.
Yes, there are a few of those gals especially in the New Calendar churches: Greek, OCA, and Antiochian.
Surprisingly, the militant ones who oppose and question me, are older women who are over 50 but under 80 years of age.

So, I wear my head scarf only when receiving Holy Communion, unless it is very cold like at Pascha when we must go outside.
Since I have been doing so, more women have chosen to cover. They just did not want to be the first ones.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 10:47:04 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.

She comes from our level "...came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Virgin Mary....and became man...."

Btw, I don't see hair here:
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
joasia
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 10:48:18 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
I don't see why he wouldn't allow slacks on Sundays, or any day for that matter.

Did you know him or is this just your opinion?
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 10:52:26 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.

She comes from our level "...came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Virgin Mary....and became man...."

Btw, I don't see hair here:


It is the more modern art of the 1930 to 1990s that depicts the Virgin Theotokos without a head covering or with a partial head covering.
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 11:06:29 PM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Curious, can women satisfy I Cor. 11:3-16 like Orthodox Jews do, and wear a wig.

That's a great question, one I wondered myself! It might interest you to learn that the medieval rabbis frowned upon the use of the sheitel (wig) by religious Jewish women as a headcovering; they felt it appealed to their vanity, when the intent of the haircovering for married women was to make them unattractive to other men, so that their hair would be only seen by their husbands (in ancient times, a woman's long hair was regarded as her glory). This is why the Theotokos has her hair covered, and why in Western art, she also does.

Forgive me for my ignorance in this comment.  I read an explanation that the wig was used so that when the women were being attacked in times of persecution and the man would grab their hair, that the wig would come off so that they could escape.  I read this a long time ago so I can't provide a reference, but this stuck in my mind.  It might have been from the late 19th century hence the reason the medieval rabbis didn't mention this.  But, I think the explanation was from an older time.

As a note about the Western art, there's always parts of hair that is shown whereas in Orthodox icons, the head is completely covered.  I noticed that difference a while back.  I think that showing her hair is an immodest and worldly expression.  It lowers her to our level and she is so much more than that as we all know.

She comes from our level "...came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Virgin Mary....and became man...."

Btw, I don't see hair here:


His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
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The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 11:12:38 PM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 11:15:18 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 11:19:15 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 11:20:01 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.
I don't see why he wouldn't allow slacks on Sundays, or any day for that matter.

He was probably concerned about scandalizing other members of the congregation. Obviously he didn't consider it a matter of faith, otherwise he wouldn't have allowed it ever. It's a good practice, though, since men and women should dress in ways that are appropriate to their sex. There is obviously a double standard with respect to this in our society, since women are far more likely to wear pants than men are to wear skirts, hence the pastoral condescension to some women who may be offended by not being allowed to wear pants and might avoid church altogether for that reason.
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 11:20:06 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.

I always wear ankle length skirts to church and to most places of business.
The only exception is when I visit the physical therapist or chiropractor as they have requested that I wear modest slacks
to expedite the treatment. Sometimes I wear slacks underneath my skirts and then remove the skirt at the PT.
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 11:20:23 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?


Relevance?
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 11:21:26 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?



Hey, something important is missing.

Oh, he is beardless.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 11:29:01 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?



Hey, something important is missing.

Oh, he is beardless.  Roll Eyes
Doesn't look like he can grow one yet.

Besides, beardless goes way back:

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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 11:29:54 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?


Relevance?
you want traditional, I'll give you traditional.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 11:54:46 PM »

At our church of St Markella's, we don't insist on covering one's head, unless one is approaching the chalice.

Why the double standard?

Quote
One is encouraged to wear a skirt rather than pants, and we have skirts for those who don't have them. I'm told the former Metropolitan Petros only insisted on skirts at Sunday services.

Does that mean that they were allowed to wear pants on other days of Holy Liturgy?  I don't see why he would allow that.

Well it's better if the women cover their heads all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them cover their heads when they go in front of everyone else to receive. I expect that is the reasoning. Likewise with the skirts: it's best if they wear traditional female clothing all the time, but if they don't want to, at least let them do it at services where many more attend.
How about traditional male clothing?


Relevance?
you want traditional, I'll give you traditional.

So what, now dresses aren't traditional for women?
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2011, 12:01:26 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2011, 12:16:52 AM »

So what, now dresses aren't traditional for women?
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2011, 12:17:30 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
Oh? Why's that?
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2011, 01:04:24 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
Oh? Why's that?

From your comment.
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2011, 01:14:02 AM »

His work was amazing.  You're right, no hair there.  I was referring to the Western paintings, in general.
It's odd just see it there off in a corner at the Vatican.  The Vatican museum is a rather strange place to visit, even more so.

The covering up of the Holy Theotokos's hair seems based on nuns.  Myself, I don't find this scandalous:


Oh.  I thought you were going somewhere with the statue, but then you bring up this painting.  I'm disappointed.
Oh? Why's that?

From your comment.
That I'm not scandalized?
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2011, 01:29:37 AM »

Are there any Orthodox Icons that show the Virgin Theotokos with her hair showing underneath her veil as in Our Lady of Guadalupe?
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« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2011, 02:21:33 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?
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« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2011, 02:28:15 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
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« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 03:38:40 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
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« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2011, 06:48:16 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
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« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 07:16:49 AM »

Xenia,

Look to the Mother of God (Theotokos) as an example of feminine piety.  Covering is a woman's act of obedience to God.  The Orthodox tradition has always taught to cover.  If you visit a monastery or convent, the women are expected to cover their heads, even outside on the grounds.  It's the old way which has become more lenient, in the world.  And also remember that the pious living of the first Christians is a continuation from the Old Testament on some things like head coverings.  Plus, it's in the Holy Bible.  (1 Cor. 11:3-16)
Has the Orthodox Church changed its teaching on this question of whether or not it is mandatory for women to wear headcovering in Church?

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching, but that the modern woman does not want to cover her hair.
I am not sure how to understand this . Here, it seems like you are saying that the Orthodox Church has not changed its teaching and that women are still required to cover their heads while in Church, but that today many Orthodox women are disobedient to the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Is that what you mean?
Uncovered hair is a disobedience to both Scripture and Tradition.  St Paul makes it perfectly clear that covered heads for women in church is required.  Is the example of Orthodox women to the 21st century not enough?  If the Mother of God is modest enough to obey the rules, and those rules have been followed not only by women saints, but ordinary Orthodox laywomen, then we need to question the merit of the modern(ist) uncovered hair which has been followed by trousers etc. 
You seem to have an extra verse.  In my Bible St. Paul doesn't say anything about trousers.
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 07:17:28 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2011, 07:23:32 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 08:01:20 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 08:32:49 AM »

Right. There's a difference between relaxing the standard for pastoral reasons, and completely abandoning or forgetting that there is a standard.
That's true enough.

I expect those beardless emperors St Constantine and St Justinian were also beneficiaries of a concession by the Church to Roman upper class customs. After all, in icons St Constantine frequently is presented with a beard.
The obsession with beards came with the Roman upper classes and their Stoicism.  Many (most?) images of contemporary Christians in the catacombs do not have beards.
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2011, 08:58:44 AM »

I prefer facial hair on men, I think God put it there to make a distinction between the genders.
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