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Author Topic: What do RC saints say about Orthodoxy?  (Read 3170 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2011, 04:44:32 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.

This is junk.  And the letter that you quote is of highly questionable provenance.  There is NO OTHER RECORD of any misdeeds on the part of the bishop.  And there is a record of Orthodox who said that they lied about the bishop in order to stir trouble.

Give a good guess what version of your tale I am believing.

Do Orthodox people ever kill those who oppose Orthodoxy?  Ask the Serbs.

Utter nonsense!

You are speaking of teenagers and young men who had been been born and educated under a system of atheistic communism, young men who had never seen the inside of any church.  After the break up of Yugoslavia and the demise of Communism they had no reference points in a wildly fluctuating world.  They were easy prey for the demagoguery of the likes of Milosevic - decried by the Serbian bishops as a sociopath.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2011, 05:04:56 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.

This is junk.  And the letter that you quote is of highly questionable provenance.  There is NO OTHER RECORD of any misdeeds on the part of the bishop.  And there is a record of Orthodox who said that they lied about the bishop in order to stir trouble.
Can't be: the Orthodox didn't exist in Poland.  The King and Sejm said so. Not until 1632.  Your "testimonies" were collected in 1628, when the Orthodox didn't exist.

Give a good guess what version of your tale I am believing.

the Kool Aid soaked one.

Do Orthodox people ever kill those who oppose Orthodoxy?  Ask the Serbs.



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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
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« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2011, 05:21:28 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.

This is junk.  And the letter that you quote is of highly questionable provenance.  There is NO OTHER RECORD of any misdeeds on the part of the bishop.  And there is a record of Orthodox who said that they lied about the bishop in order to stir trouble.
Can't be: the Orthodox didn't exist in Poland.  The King and Sejm said so. Not until 1632.  Your "testimonies" were collected in 1628, when the Orthodox didn't exist.

Give a good guess what version of your tale I am believing.

the Kool Aid soaked one.

Do Orthodox people ever kill those who oppose Orthodoxy?  Ask the Serbs.





Good grief!  You keep on grinding that ol' axe they way you are, either it or the grindstone will just disappear.  I've really never seen anything quite like it!
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« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2011, 05:35:23 PM »

I'm wondering if anyone here can confirm/clarify something for me: is the Ukrainian Catholic Diocese of St Josaphat in Parma named for St. Josaphat Kuntsevych?

Yes.
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« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2011, 05:35:58 PM »

Can't be: the Orthodox didn't exist in Poland.  The King and Sejm said so. Not until 1632.  Your "testimonies" were collected in 1628, when the Orthodox didn't exist.

And we all know that Polish kings are never wrong.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2011, 05:49:49 PM »

I'm wondering if anyone here can confirm/clarify something for me: is the Ukrainian Catholic Diocese of St Josaphat in Parma named for St. Josaphat Kuntsevych?

Yes.

That's what I figured. the only other possibility I could think of would be that it was named for Josaphat Kotsylovsky -- but that seemed unlikely since he has been beatified but not canonized.

The thing is, wasn't Pope John Paul II always "ecumenical" toward the Orthodox? It seems strange that he would "rub their noses in it", if you will, by naming a whole Eparchy (and an eastern one to boot) after the man who said the words below. But as Father Brown said "I dare say I read old books of logic."

Quote
It is true that peace is good, but the one who was given us by Christ, not the one, which he described as: I came not to to give peace but a sword (Mt 10, 34). What harmony can be between light and darkness? What harmony between Christ and Belial? Between Catholics and the sons of schism and heresy? Between Catholic Churches and schismatic blasphemies? What peace will be when God is insulted with it?

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« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2011, 05:55:25 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many. 

Okay, that's kinda weird.

P.S. Earlier I wondered why Catholics would insist that you recognize a post-schism Catholic as a saint. Now, however, I'm more inclined to think that they were actually just defending him against your "enthusiastic" criticisms of him.

(For what it's worth. I wasn't involved in that discussion.)
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« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2011, 05:55:57 PM »

Can't be: the Orthodox didn't exist in Poland.  The King and Sejm said so. Not until 1632.  Your "testimonies" were collected in 1628, when the Orthodox didn't exist.

And we all know that Polish kings are never wrong.  Roll Eyes
The point being that they were members of an outlawed religion so either:

A. Their "testimony" was coerced.

or

B. It was purchased with guarantees of safety.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2011, 06:07:23 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many. 

Okay, that's kinda weird.

P.S. Earlier I wondered why Catholics would insist that you recognize a post-schism Catholic as a saint. Now, however, I'm more inclined to think that they were actually just defending him against your "enthusiastic" criticisms of him.
No, their enthusiasm came first. I'd never heard of him before.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2011, 06:08:21 PM »

I'm wondering if anyone here can confirm/clarify something for me: is the Ukrainian Catholic Diocese of St Josaphat in Parma named for St. Josaphat Kuntsevych?

Yes.

That's what I figured. the only other possibility I could think of would be that it was named for Josaphat Kotsylovsky -- but that seemed unlikely since he has been beatified but not canonized.

The thing is, wasn't Pope John Paul II always "ecumenical" toward the Orthodox? It seems strange that he would "rub their noses in it", if you will, by naming a whole Eparchy (and an eastern one to boot) after the man who said the words below. But as Father Brown said "I dare say I read old books of logic."

Quote
It is true that peace is good, but the one who was given us by Christ, not the one, which he described as: I came not to to give peace but a sword (Mt 10, 34). What harmony can be between light and darkness? What harmony between Christ and Belial? Between Catholics and the sons of schism and heresy? Between Catholic Churches and schismatic blasphemies? What peace will be when God is insulted with it?


I guess Polish popes, like Polish kings, are never wrong. Roll Eyes
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2011, 06:19:55 PM »

St Joseph Volotsky advocated the execution of the Judaizing heretics, but that was supposedly in the context of their rebellion against the Tsar, i.e. they were to be executed as rebels, not merely because of their heresy. Likewise with the repression of the Old Ritualist schism, which had turned into a violent rebellion. In Byzantine times, I think you could point to similar occurrences among e.g. the Bogomil heretics. The point is, heresy of itself does not canonically require bodily execution, which is precisely what Thomas Aquinas argued for, and which was confirmed by the Latin church at the Lateran Council in 1215.
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« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2011, 07:06:28 PM »

Despite my earlier statement, I'm wondering... are state killings of that nature really wrong? I mean, separation of church and state is just a blip on the historical timeline. Back then heresy was essentially treason, was it not? An inquisition was primarily a defense of the peace of the realm since not only would heretics lead people into apostasy but most rulers may have thought such uncleanness would bring the wrath of Heaven.

And then this combines with the Ancient Roman dictum, "Nothing can be both new and true." So basically, if you could not trace your religious pedigree back hundreds of years you were considered a subversive and probably a sex pervert, more so the more collectivistic the culture.

Of course, there have always been tolerant princes, ironically the Ethiopians pretty much saved Muhammad's life. But I wonder what their motivations were in the pre-modern world.

So even if Josaphat Kuntsevich killed Orthodox, from a Catholic perspective maybe there is nothing wrong with this (obviously it would be still be wrong if Orthodoxy is the true faith-but for different reasons). The same would also apply to the Byzantine Emperors then.

I'm not advocating theocracy today or anything like that, but in light of the fact that even God told Israel, "suffer not a witch to live," etc. perhaps the past really is "a different country" in this respect.
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« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2011, 02:34:53 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh

It's been a while since I saw the actual quote, but I know that St. Thomas Aquinas was quite opinionated on the subject.

When I was with the Dominicans as a Third Order member, one of the Dominican Priests told us that in Georgia (in Eastern Europe) and in Constantinople, there were two Dominican Priories set up to help understand the reasons for the schism. Both priories became Orthodox and that is why St. Seraphim of Sarov wore white because these ex-Dominican Orthodox monks were allowed to continue wearing their white habit as they were mendicant monks with the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

I read several biographies on St. Thomas Aquinas, and he was sincere in his attempt to resolve the differences. Dominicans have said that his death on the way to the Council was very unfortunate as he also wanted to heal the schism. In his last few months on earth, St. Thomas tried to destroy his writings as he came to believe that they were worthless.

My pride was hurt a bit when you said the Dominican monks converted. My Apologies for any negative feelings towards you. If God willed them to convert so be it.

St. Thomas never "tried to destroy his writings" as far as I know. From what I understood, in a Heavenly vision God told him he was pleased with his writings. When St. Thomas was back to his senses he started to see how little and worthless what he had so far written was. This is the story I have read, if somebody disagrees in any way please correct me. St. Thomas wrote a work to attack Orthodoxy (or defend Catholic views depends how you look at it) 11 years (somebody correct me if wrong) before his death.
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