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Author Topic: What do RC saints say about Orthodoxy?  (Read 3598 times) Average Rating: 0
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jah777
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« on: June 28, 2011, 09:52:48 AM »

One can find countless statements from post-Schism saints of the Orthodox Church which state unequivocally that Roman Catholicism is heretical, contains heresy, teaches heresy, etc.  I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 10:16:05 AM »

Somewhere here we have threads on Joasaphat the Malevolent.
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2011, 11:35:56 AM »

One can find countless statements from post-Schism saints of the Orthodox Church which state unequivocally that Roman Catholicism is heretical, contains heresy, teaches heresy, etc.  I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Interesting question, but I think you should clarify what you mean by "post-Schism": we haven't been in full communion since 1014, but the schism didn't become "definitive" until the 15th century.
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 12:15:18 PM »

One can find countless statements from post-Schism saints of the Orthodox Church which state unequivocally that Roman Catholicism is heretical, contains heresy, teaches heresy, etc.  I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Interesting question, but I think you should clarify what you mean by "post-Schism": we haven't been in full communion since 1014, but the schism didn't become "definitive" until the 15th century.

That's not very accurate.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 12:36:47 PM »


For the sake of this thread, let's say post-1054 RC Saints.

And no arguing about when precisely the Great Schism occurred.  Not in this thread. 
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 02:57:41 PM »

Somewhere here we have threads on Joasaphat the Malevolent.

Or Andrew Bobola.
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2011, 03:09:27 PM »

I know that Padre Pio willingly assisted at least one person in abandoning Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2011, 04:07:39 PM »

This excerpt is originally in English. But I never read the original, only the translation into Portuguese a friend made. The text below is a retranslation into English, so if you get the original it will certainly have different words. It's the opinion of St. Francis of Assisi, in glory, about Orthodoxy. The facts narrated occurred around 1925.

Quote
She told me that her family belonged to an old and noble lineage from Alsacy, the N.N.s, and that they were Protestants. I must say that in that distric they have two religions: half are Roman Catholic and the other half are Protestant. They share the same church, in which they celebrate their services in turns. At the back of the church there is a Catholic altar with images and other objects. When the Protestants have their services, they pull a curtain in front of the Catholic altar, take their table to the middle and pray. Recently there had been a movement among the Protestants in Alsacy for the veneration of saints. This happened after the publication of the book by Sabatier about St. Francis of Assisi.

Despite being Protestant, he was captivated by the beauty of the book. Although they were still Protestants, they were not satisfied. They were engaged in the restauration of sacraments and of the veneration of saints. Besides, typical of them, when the pastor made their wedding cerimony, they asked him to not pull the curtain over the Catholic altar, so they could at least see the images of the saints. Their hearts were searching for the True Church.

Once, the young wife was sick, sitting at the garden, reading a life of Francis of Assisi. The garden was blooming. The silence of the countryside surrouded her. While she was reading, she fell into a light sleep.

"I don't know how it happened", she told me later. Suddenly, I saw Francis himself walking towards me and, with him, an elder who looked like a patriarch, bent but shining", she said, pointing to his advanced age and venerable image. He was dressing all white. She was afraid, but they got near her and Francis said: "My daughter, you seek the true Church. She is there, where he is. She supports all and demands support from none."

The white elder kept silent and just smiled approvingly to the words of Francis. The vision was over. The woman woke up. And somehow the thought occurred to her: "This is related to the Russian church". And peace came upon her. After this vision, it was written the letter I mentioned at the beginning.

Two months later, I was again in her house, and this time I learned a new detail from the young wife herself. They had hired a Russian servant. When she went to check his bedroom, to see if he had settled comfortably, she saw a small icon and recognized the elder she had seen during her sleep with Francis. Perplex and alarmed, she asked: "Who is this old man?"

"St. Seraphim of Sarov, our orthodox saint", answered the servant. Then she understood the meaning of the words of Francis about Truth being in the Orthodox Church.
St Seraphim of Sarov: A Spiritual Biography by Archimandrite L. Moore
1st. ed p. 239-243
http://www.amazon.com/St-Seraphim-Sarov-Spiritual-Biography/dp/1880364131
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2011, 08:00:52 PM »

I know that Padre Pio willingly assisted at least one person in abandoning Orthodoxy.

That's not really saying very much.
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 08:54:30 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2011, 09:03:28 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh

It's been a while since I saw the actual quote, but I know that St. Thomas Aquinas was quite opinionated on the subject.
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 09:41:14 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 09:57:28 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
You guys killed him Sad
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 10:06:42 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
You guys killed him Sad

No, an Orthodox mob killed him. 
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2011, 10:14:09 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych

Any quotes from him?
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2011, 10:33:38 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
You guys killed him Sad
Sic semper tyrannis. Smiley
"By thoughtless violence you oppress the Russian people and urge them on to revolt. You are aware of the censure of the simple people, that it would be better to be in Turkish captivity than to endure such persecutions for faith and piety. You write that you freely drown the Orthodox, chop off their heads, and profane their churches. You seal their churches so the people, without piety and Christian rites, are buried like non-Christians. In place of joy, your cunning Uniatism has brought us only woe, unrest, and conflict. We would prefer to be without it. These are the fruits of your Uniatism. It would have been better not to have given us nationwide strife and hatred, and instead to have preserved us from nationwide condemnation."

March 12, 1622
Letter of Leo Sapiega, Roman Catholic and Chancellor of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Representative of the Polish Crown
Addressed to Josaphat Kuntsevich
Quote
Arriving in Vitebsk on the 12th of November, 1623, with a band of his cohorts, Kuntsevich proceeded to knock down the tents where the Orthodox secretly held divine services. One of Kuntsevich's deacons attacked an Orthodox priest. The crowd, which had run out of patience, then turned on Kuntsevich, who was personally leading this pogrom, and with sticks and stones beat him to death. His maimed body was placed in a sack and tossed into the Diva River. Such was the inglorious end of the earthly life of this alleged "apostle of unity" as none other than Pope John Paul If shamelessly dares to call him. Before John Paul ??, Pius IX on June 29, 1867 already glorified Josaphat Kuntsevich as a saint. In 1923, on the occasion of the 300th anniversary of Kuntsevich's death, Pius XI published an encyclical Ecclesiam Dei (The Church of God) [8] in which Kuntsevich is named "hieromartyr," a "righteous person," and where it is said that such an example of "holy life" should aid in unifying all Christians.
On his canonization, his "people," the Ruthenians had no part in it: it was the Poles of Galicia, at the time busy oppressing the Ruthenians under the Austrian umbrella.
I already have:
On that canonization:Religion and nationality in Western Ukraine: the Greek Catholic Church and the Ruthenian National Movement in Galicia 1867-1900 By John-Paul Himka
http://books.google.com/books?id=j2yhkvCx60IC&pg=PA28&dq=canonization+kuntsevych&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=canonization%20kuntsevych&f=false

His proof is one pro-Russian paper protested?

The Ruthenians refused to contribute to the celebrations in Rome, amongst othre "irregularities," in contrast to the enthusiasm of the Poles.
An example might be the "canonization" of Ioasaphat Kuntsevich: the Ruthenian church opposed it. It was pushed by the Latin Poles, and for decades the only churches dedicated to him were Latin Polish ones.

Substantiate please, I've never heard that before.
I already have:
116 interviews recorded when?  I believe that the issue is that there is no objective materials of witnesses from both sides. The canonization, a considerable time after events was motivated by the desire of the Polish Roman Catholics to have another Polish saint for nationalistic reasons.
On that canonization:Religion and nationality in Western Ukraine: the Greek Catholic Church and the Ruthenian National Movement in Galicia 1867-1900 By John-Paul Himka

http://books.google.com/books?id=j2yhkvCx60IC&pg=PA28&dq=canonization+kuntsevych&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=canonization%20kuntsevych&f=false
Somewhere here I posted links to all the "St. Joasaphat" Churches I could find.  All were Polish Latin ones.  The first Ukrainian one was a parish in Western Canada which grew out of a French parish St. Joachim.  For now, wikipedia will have to do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._josaphat#Legacy
Somewhere here I posted links to all the "St. Joasaphat" Churches I could find.  All were Polish Latin ones.  The first Ukrainian one was a parish in Western Canada which grew out of a French parish St. Joachim.  For now, wikipedia will have to do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._josaphat#Legacy

The US Ukrainian Catholics have a Cathedral in Parma, OH and parishes in New Britain, CT; Rochester, NY; Philadelphia, PA; Bethlehem, PA; Munster,IN; and Warren MI.

He is also commemorated in every proskomedia and litija litany in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholic Churches.
Is now: how far back does that go?

The parishes you mention all date from after the Edmonton Ukrainian cathedral (1904), the Poles started dedicating churches to him in the 1880's in Chicago, Milwaukee etc.  What the situation in Europe I do not know, but would be interesting.  You have any info.
As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Btw. for the OP
Quote
Unfriendly pronouncements by prominent Roman Catholic leaders concerning Russia are so numerous and patent, that no one can possibly deny them. The tsarist Orthodox power was the bulwark which crushed the Vatican's dream and pretensions to Roman catholicize Russian souls. Every turn and convulsion in Russian political and social life was followed in Rome with great interest. The repeal of serfdom in 1861, as well as the rise in anarchy and nihilism gave much hope [to the Vatican]. "Only a revolution will be able to help the Church," [15] was the opinion of the papal nuncio Meglius in 1868. No sooner had the "Imperial Manifesto of Tolerance" been declared on June 17, 1905, than Rome began to extract and make use of all the advantages which were contained in this manifesto which gave freedom of conscience to all Russian citizens.

Nonetheless, Pope Pius X (who was canonized in 1954) pronounced on the very eve of World War I, "Russia is the greatest enemy Of the [Roman] Church."
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/vatican_russia.aspx
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 10:36:11 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2011, 10:36:57 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2011, 10:52:46 PM »

You guys killed him Sad
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I liked Schultz's response better.
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2011, 10:53:15 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 10:56:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2011, 10:54:20 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2011, 10:57:57 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many.  In fact, that was the reason why I was banned from Catholic Answers, as I revealed that I went out of my way to not pass a parish named after him here, so I wouldn't have to cross myself (that I cross myself passing the Vatican's churches wasn't good enough).
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2011, 11:15:34 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
You guys killed him Sad

No, an Orthodox mob killed him.  
I'm just following you guys' logic here. If "we" sacked Constantinople then "you" killed one of our Holy Saints.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 11:16:17 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2011, 11:22:59 PM »

How Thomas Aquinas views heresy and how to dispose of heretics...

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm

This is very frightening; he teaches death to non-Catholics.  He teaches that even repentant heretics should be put to death as a lesson to others!

If we could find a copy of his "Contra errores Graecorum" we would discover in his own words how he viewed the Orthodox.
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2011, 11:26:20 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many.  In fact, that was the reason why I was banned from Catholic Answers, as I revealed that I went out of my way to not pass a parish named after him here, so I wouldn't have to cross myself (that I cross myself passing the Vatican's churches wasn't good enough).
Speaking of, why do you cross yourself when you pass our Churches? You believe we have Sacraments?
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2011, 11:28:13 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
You guys killed him Sad

No, an Orthodox mob killed him.  
I'm just following you guys' logic here. If "we" sacked Constantinople then "you" killed one of our Holy Saints.
I don't necessarily agree with his killing, but I don't think your logic works. You guys are claiming he was a holy man, the Orthodox do not claim such about his killers.
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2011, 11:30:20 PM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josaphat_Kuntsevych
You guys killed him Sad

No, an Orthodox mob killed him.  
I'm just following you guys' logic here. If "we" sacked Constantinople then "you" killed one of our Holy Saints.

The dark side of Josaphat Kuntsevich.

Here is what the the Chancellor of Lithuania, Leo Sapiega, the representative of the Polish King, wrote to Josaphat Kuntsevich on 12 March, 1622, which is one and a half years before Josaphat's death:

"...By thoughtless violence you oppress the Russian people and urge them on to revolt. You are aware of the censure of the simple people, that it would be better to be in Turkish captivity than to endure such persecutions for faith and piety. You write that you freely drown the Orthodox, chop off their heads, and profane their churches. You seal their churches so the people, without piety and Christian rites, are buried like non-Christians. In place of joy, your cunning Uniatism has brought us only woe, unrest, and conflict. We would prefer to be without it. These are the fruits of your Uniatism."

Just before his "martyr's end," which occurred on November 12, 1623 in Vitebsk, Kuntsevich ordered the disposal of dead Orthodox by having their corpses exhumed and thrown to dogs. In all of his Polotsky diocese, both in Mogilyov and in Orsha, he pillaged and terrorized the Orthodox, closing and burning churches. Eloquent complaints were sent to judges and to the Polish Sejm.

For more information see this message on a Catholic Forum

http://www.cin.org/archives/apolo/199810/0580.html

Since the Pope encourages us to move from the "dialogue of love" to the "dialogue of truth" here is the Orthodox view of this dreadful man. The Jesuit Saint Josaphat Kuntsevich - killed by an Orthodox crowd and therefore proclaimed a Saint and Martyr by Rome.

A martyr for Rome - yes. A martyr for Christ - no.

"In the sixteenth Century shifting political boundaries found large numbers of Orthodox within a united Polish-Lithuanian kingdom, at once anti-Russian and militantly Catholic. The forceful conversion of the Orthodox, conducted primarily by the Jesuits, was "legitimised" in 1596 by the Council of Brest-Litovsk, which proclaimed the "union" of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches within the Polish-Lithuanian State. (A medal coined at the creation of the Unia showed Pope Clement VIII on his throne with a Russian prostrated before him.)

"To facilitate this conversion, the Orthodox were allowed to retain the Eastern (Byzantine) rite and many externals of Orthodox worship--icons, iconostasis, Orthodox style vestments, the eight-point cross... They continued using the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and simply commemorated the pope instead of the patriarch. Many simple people thus converted without realising the theological consequences. Those who refused to join this Uniate Church were persecuted; thousands were martyred.

"A leader in this campaign, the Polish Jesuit Josaphat Kuntsevich, admitted that he freely drowned the Orthodox, chopped off their heads and profaned their churches; he ordered their dead bodies to be thrown to dogs.

"But one day, arriving in Vitebsk on the 12th of November, 1623, with a band of his cohorts, Kuntsevich proceeded to knock down the tents where the Orthodox secretly held divine services. One of Kuntsevich's deacons attacked an Orthodox priest. The crowd, which had run out of patience, then turned on Kuntsevich, who was personally leading this pogrom, and with sticks and stones beat him to death. His maimed body was placed in a sack and tossed into the Diva river. "

Such was the inglorious end of the earthly life of this alleged "Apostle of Unity" as none other than Pope John Paul II shamelessly dares to call him.

In those evil times, there is no denying that the hands of Orthodox and Catholics alike were stained with the blood of their fellow men. But for the Pope to proclaim Josephat Kuntsevich a Saint is a wicked endorsement of savagery and murder against the Orthodox.
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2011, 11:31:15 PM »

According to Britannica, St. Antony Khrapovitsky "suppressed" the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I don't have a source which elaborates on what that meant though. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/670721/Antony-Khrapovitsky
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2011, 11:36:58 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many.  In fact, that was the reason why I was banned from Catholic Answers, as I revealed that I went out of my way to not pass a parish named after him here, so I wouldn't have to cross myself (that I cross myself passing the Vatican's churches wasn't good enough).
Speaking of, why do you cross yourself when you pass our Churches? You believe we have Sacraments?
Theologoumen.
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2011, 11:38:25 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2011, 11:46:17 PM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many.  In fact, that was the reason why I was banned from Catholic Answers, as I revealed that I went out of my way to not pass a parish named after him here, so I wouldn't have to cross myself (that I cross myself passing the Vatican's churches wasn't good enough).
Speaking of, why do you cross yourself when you pass our Churches? You believe we have Sacraments?
Theologoumen.
As hostile as you are toward our Church it is surprising that you take this stance.
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2011, 11:52:58 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.
No, Catholic blood flows in Orthodox bodies, whether Bulgarian or Greek, or anyone else for that matter.

As for the Vatican, I quoted their (your?) sloganeering.
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2011, 11:59:22 PM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 12:01:21 AM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.
Thank you for demonstrating my point Fr. Ambrose.
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 12:02:38 AM »

As someone I know proposed to your side, we'll agree he's a saint if you agree he should have been killed.

Has someone been trying to get you to regard him as a saint?
Many. 

Okay, that's kinda weird.
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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 12:04:02 AM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.
Thank you for demonstrating my point Fr. Ambrose.

I think I must have missed it.
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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 12:08:28 AM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.
Father, you are forgetting that the Vatican canonized both Kuntsevych who did the murdering and Aquinas who justified it.  We are just slackers-no canonization for the ones who gave Kuntsevych his just reward.

In fact, the Vatican has canonized so many butchers that it should be a category right up there with "doctor."

Very strange: we conisder someone a martyr who is killed.  The Vatican calls one a martyr if you are killed when your victims fight back in self defense.

Btw, with all this obsession with stigmata and blood and gore, do they have a category of saint "passion-bearer" or is that something else they left behind?
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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 12:20:56 AM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.
Father, you are forgetting that the Vatican canonized both Kuntsevych who did the murdering and Aquinas who justified it.  We are just slackers-no canonization for the ones who gave Kuntsevych his just reward.

In fact, the Vatican has canonized so many butchers that it should be a category right up there with "doctor."

Very strange: we conisder someone a martyr who is killed.  The Vatican calls one a martyr if you are killed when your victims fight back in self defense.

Btw, with all this obsession with stigmata and blood and gore, do they have a category of saint "passion-bearer" or is that something else they left behind?

Kuntsevich is an enigma.  The Catholics see him as a Saint and one of God's chosen vessels bringing the dissidents into union with the Pope.  Given the horrific words about Kuntsevich's activites by the Catholic Chancellor of Lithuania, Leo Sapiega (message 25)  I don't see how they can maintain their belief in his sanctity.  But they do.
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 12:40:57 AM »

I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Names, dates, quotes, anybody???    Huh

It's been a while since I saw the actual quote, but I know that St. Thomas Aquinas was quite opinionated on the subject.

When I was with the Dominicans as a Third Order member, one of the Dominican Priests told us that in Georgia (in Eastern Europe) and in Constantinople, there were two Dominican Priories set up to help understand the reasons for the schism. Both priories became Orthodox and that is why St. Seraphim of Sarov wore white because these ex-Dominican Orthodox monks were allowed to continue wearing their white habit as they were mendicant monks with the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

I read several biographies on St. Thomas Aquinas, and he was sincere in his attempt to resolve the differences. Dominicans have said that his death on the way to the Council was very unfortunate as he also wanted to heal the schism. In his last few months on earth, St. Thomas tried to destroy his writings as he came to believe that they were worthless.
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2011, 04:51:45 AM »

One can find countless statements from post-Schism saints of the Orthodox Church which state unequivocally that Roman Catholicism is heretical, contains heresy, teaches heresy, etc.  I am interested, what have canonized saints of post-Schism Roman Catholicism said of the Orthodox Church?  Please respond with names, dates, and exact quotes.  Thank you!

Thank you all for the replies, though I think I need to rephrase my question.  The absence in this thread of any such "names, dates, and quotes" from post-Schism RC saints on Orthodoxy has been most enlightening so far.

Now, to rephrase, can RCs provide any quotes regarding the Orthodox Church from post-Schism RC saints whose holiness and sanctity would appear to Orthodox to be beyond reproach? 

If the question was posed to Orthodox by RCs in reverse, this thread would be filled with multiple pages of quotes within a few hours.  Surely, RCs have some impressive quotes from a few holy people somewhere?  Huh
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2011, 05:12:18 AM »


Thank you all for the replies, though I think I need to rephrase my question.  The absence in this thread of any such "names, dates, and quotes" from post-Schism RC saints on Orthodoxy has been most enlightening so far.

Saint Kuntsevich's actions speak volumes.
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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2011, 05:21:49 AM »

Quote from: Josaphat Kuncewicz
It is true that peace is good, but the one who was given us by Christ, not the one, which he described as: I came not to to give peace but a sword (Mt 10, 34). What harmony can be between light and darkness? What harmony between Christ and Belial? Between Catholics and the sons of schism and heresy? Between Catholic Churches and schismatic blasphemies? What peace will be when God is insulted with it?

http://www.piusx.org.pl/zawsze_wierni/artykul/364
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« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2011, 06:27:49 AM »

How Thomas Aquinas views heresy and how to dispose of heretics...

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm

This is very frightening; he teaches death to non-Catholics.  He teaches that even repentant heretics should be put to death as a lesson to others!

If we could find a copy of his "Contra errores Graecorum" we would discover in his own words how he viewed the Orthodox.
I've only read a bit, but it seems pretty irenic. This is the strongest I've seen yet:
Quote
Therefore, it is justly remarked in 1 John 4:3 : Every spirit that dissolves Jesus is not of God, but is the Antichrist.

So, also, at the present time  some  are described as dissolving Christ by diminishing His dignity so far as this lies in their power. In saying that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son, they lessen His dignity, since He together with the Father is the Spirator of the Holy Spirit. In denying, moreover, that there is one head of the Church, namely, the holy Roman Church, they clearly dissolve the unity of the Mystical Body; for there cannot be one body if there is not one head, nor one congregation if there is not one ruler. Hence, John 10:16 says: There will be one fold and one shepherd.

In denying that the sacrament of the altar can be consecrated of unleavened bread, they are manifestly in opposition to Christ, who, as the evangelists relate, instituted this sacrament on the first day of the unleavened read, when it was against the law for there to be leavened bread in the houses of the Jews. Their view also seems to diminish the purity of the sacramental body of Christ, to which the Apostle exhorts the faithful in 1 Cor. 5:8, saying: Let us, therefore, celebrated the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. In denying purgatory they also lessen the power of this sacrament which is offered in the Church both for the living and for the dead; for if purgatory does not exist, it avails the dead nothing; it cannot profit them if they are in hell, where there is no redemption;  nor can it do them any good if they are in heaven, where they are in no need of our prayers.
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm#b0 Emphasis mine.
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« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2011, 10:00:52 AM »

What? Orthodox Christians somestimes kill Catholics? I thought every Orthodox Christian was immaculately concieved and free from all sin. [/sarcasm]
Orthodox Christians sometimes kill Catholics: during the wars between the Constantinople and the Czar of Bulgaria, many were killed. Lord have mercy.

As for the Vatican, we didn't kill enough Crusaders, although conversion would have been better. What was that slogan the Crusaders had "Kill them all! Let God sort them out."
Once again people, another demonstration of the Eastern Orthodox concept that when commit acts of blood shed, those acts are of higher quality than when Catholics kill Orthodox Christians.

The higher quality seems to be all on the Catholic side.

Catholic acts of murder are better planned and carried out more efficiently.  And you even have your theologians such as Aquinas writing theology which justifies the torture and murder of non-Catholics.

By comparison the Orthodox are rank amateurs.

Look at Kuntsevich-- how well organised he was as he went around the country drowning the Orthodox, cutting off their heads and burning them in their churches.   By contrast the Orthodox murder of him was simply opportunistic and very amateurish and unplanned.

This is junk.  And the letter that you quote is of highly questionable provenance.  There is NO OTHER RECORD of any misdeeds on the part of the bishop.  And there is a record of Orthodox who said that they lied about the bishop in order to stir trouble.

Give a good guess what version of your tale I am believing.

Do Orthodox people ever kill those who oppose Orthodoxy?  Ask the Serbs.
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« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2011, 10:34:00 AM »

With all this talk about  Josaphat Kuntsevych, I decided to spend a little time looking to see what impartial sources say about him. I found two things …

First, the  New World Encyclopedia seems to have a positive opinion of him. In the article Basil, Rule of Saint it mentions: “Saint Josaphat Kuntsevych and Father Rutski, who labored to bring back the Ruthenian Churches into Catholic unity, reformed the Ruthenian Basilians forming the Order of Saint Basil the Great.” (emphasis added)

Second, an article on enotes.com refers to "assassination of the Greek Catholic metropolitan Josaphat Kuntsevych by the Orthodox mob in Polotsk in 1623" (emphasis added). (Upon googling that phrase, I found that it was also used by a number of other websites, including ask.com and wikipedia.org.)
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« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2011, 12:47:23 PM »

I'm wondering if anyone here can confirm/clarify something for me: is the Ukrainian Catholic Diocese of St Josaphat in Parma named for St. Josaphat Kuntsevych?
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