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Author Topic: Election of Angels Proves Rom 8:28ff not about election  (Read 7204 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alfred Persson
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« on: June 28, 2011, 12:42:38 AM »

46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 KJV)

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.(Mat 13:52 KJV)

 
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. (Act 23:6 KJV)
 

Symbols sometimes are premises in Talmudic dialogue, the respondent must infer the point made. For example, Rabbi Jesus (Jo 1:38) proved the resurrection of the body by citing Ex 3:6 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob(Mark 12:36f). This at best proves only life after death, not the resurrection of the body UNLESS one deduces from the scene the impossibility of God not fulfilling His promises to these they would serve Him physically forever.


Jesus’ audience understood the implied premise:


28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well. (Mar 12:26-28 KJV)
 
Compare:


'There is no section of the (written) Torah which does not imply the doctrine of the Resurrection, but we have not the capacity to expound it in this sense' (Sifre Deut. Section 306; 132a)


'Whence is the doctrine of the Resurrection derived from the Torah? As it is said, 'Ye shall give the Lord's heave-offering to Aaron the priest' (Num xviii. 28). But did Aaron live for ever to receive the offering? Is it not true he did not enter the land of Israel? Consequently the text teaches that he is to be restored to life (in the Hearafter) and will receive the heave-offering. Hence the Resurrection is deducible from the Torah (Sanh. 90b).  


This and other examples can be in Abraham Cohen’s “Everyman’s Talmud” (Schocken Books, New York, 1995), -pp 358-359


While instructing Jews (Jas 1:1) on the “Law of Liberty” (1:25; 2:12), which is a salvation through faith by grace alone, and not by works of Mosaic Law, a disputer states James’ position, and his own economically:


18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:


Thou hast saving faith which according to your law of liberty, doesn’t require works, and I have faith that works of Mosaic Law can save.


Having stated both positions well, the “vain man” pounces on an apparent contradiction in James’ faith, apparently it cannot exist without works, therefore:


Shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


“When you cite your works to prove you have saving faith, THEN you prove faith cannot exist without works and therefore prove my faith in works of Mosaic Law for salvation is correct.”


James' refutation is two fold:


19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


a)Faith can exist without works, the demons have faith so real they tremble.
 
b)You believe your Orthodox faith saves? The Devils also have Orthodox faith---it didn’t save them, neither will it save you.


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


With this proof in mind, will you agree faith without works of charity is dead, not a saving faith?


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.(Jam 2:26-1 KJV)


James then analogizes Abraham and Rahab to living faith, similar to how works of love for God and man evidences its alive, so also the works of Abraham and Rahab justified  (δικαιόω) calling them righteous.


God implanted faith is made perfect (Jas 2:22 τελειόω) when the works God ordained it do are actualized in our sphere (Eph 2:8-10) making the evidence its saving faith from God “sure” cp βέβαιος, 2 Pe 1:10) in the eyes of angels and men.


 
Now our target text, expecting the audience will see the connection, Paul says:

 
 28 We know God interacts with everything in the best interests of those who love him, those called to implement his purpose.
 29 Because he foreknew them, he also preplanned for them to conform to the image of his son that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 30 As for those he foresaw, he also called them; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
 31 What then is our response to these things? If God is on our side, what does it matter who is against us? (Rom 8:28-31 MIT WG MacDonald Idiomatic Translation of the New Testament, 2008)

 
Election is a fact in verse 28, not the subject. Paul is discussing all things working together for the elect’s good, and we know this is true BECAUSE (Ὅτι) God προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν  the Elect,  the two acts are cited as proof FOR the claim.


God did “Foreknow and (KAI) Predestine” those He had already elected, and this proves all things work together for their good.


The context has nothing to do with election per se, that’s why the non elect aren’t mentioned.
 

Its easy to see how predestination unto salvation is a benefit, but how did God's foreknowledge benefit us?
 
 
The context provides the clue:


33 Who can call into question God's chosen ones? God takes up for them.
34 Who would condemn us? Would Christ who died? Rather, he was raised, stationed at God's right, and also intercedes for us! (Rom 8:33-34 MIT)


Words injure…the allegation the elect aren't better than the Devil’s children would be a cut bleeding for all eternity, given survivors guilt.


Doubts about God’s justice, His impartiality, would be a plague killing our happiness.


Its impossible to predict what would develop from the delusion we didn't belong in God's Kingdom, that we really were no better than the Devil’s children who didn’t make it. Conceivably it could lead to another rebellion.


So God foreknows the elect in an alternate reality, where their free will was truly free, where the Devil never existed. And in that reality, none of the elect rebel against God like the Devil did, not one of them turn from loving God forever.


This proves God was not unjust saving them, and He was NOT showing partiality either, as He left the door open to the non elect and everyone of them had the opportunity to prove God’s foreknowledge wrong.



An analogy, suppose someone criticized the King’s choice of cars. The King has these cars in his fleet for his own reasons he won’t divulge to the critics. They are his, period. But to stop the criticism, he arranges a road test be done, to prove they are road worthy. The King didn’t reveal why he liked those cars---he likes them for his own good purpose and will, and NOT because of anything the cars themselves are or do, and its no one's business precisely why.
 
But he allows the test so his critics would know he didn’t choose cars that were unfit for the road. And if we stretch this analogy, the cars themselves needed to know, for their own peace of mind, lest they harbor some delusion they wrongly saved.

 
Then what is written, will be fulfilled:
 
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 KJV)
 
I am convinced not one child of God, not even a hair on their head, will be lost because of the devil's work. God will have utterly destroyed the works of the devil, and it will be (for us) as though the devil never been.
 
Amen, come LORD Jesus!
 
 
This is truly love before time.  
 
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. (Rom 9:29 KJV)
 
It’s a sad commentary on us all, even many of those who love God, will succumb to the temptations of evil…and be eternally lost, if not for God’s mercy.
 
 
As the context in Rom 8 is not about election, reprobation is not implied.

Scripture is quite clear, the non elect can repent and live with God in peace. That was expressly stated by the LORD Jesus Christ, the Word of God:
 
 
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 KJV)
 
 
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)
 
 
If a non elect would repent in truth and believe, while yet far off, God would hasten to a meet on the road:
 
 
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
(Luk 15:18-24 KJV)


That's the kinda of God He is, Light (1 Jo 1:5) and Love (1 Jo 4:8).


 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 (Rev 3:20-22 KJV)


END


Election clearly is separate from foreknowledge and predestination, for neither happened to the angels yet some of their number are elect also:
 
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. (1Ti 5:21 KJV)
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 12:48:54 AM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink

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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2011, 12:58:49 AM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink



I repent, that's no way to treat fellow believers in my LORD Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 12:59:48 AM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink
I repent, that's no way to treat fellow believers in my LORD Jesus Christ.

It's nice to "see" you again. I hope all is well.  
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 01:05:45 AM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink
I repent, that's no way to treat fellow believers in my LORD Jesus Christ.

It's nice to "see" you again. I hope all is well.  

It is, and I trust our LORD has blessed you also.

I do hope all read what I posted carefully, I am very curious what your reponses will be.

Good night!

May God grant peace to your house

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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 06:32:57 PM »

I forgot to explain how forekowledge is a proof:

Its easy to discern why predestining the elect to be saved is a proof all things work together for their good, but how is foreknowing them a proof?

Those God foreknows He does not cast away, and this loyalty does not depend upon them:

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 (Rom 11:2-6 KJV)

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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2011, 06:40:00 PM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink



He lied then. Should a past history of lies such has been proven be an indicator of his present and future actions?  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2011, 07:32:54 PM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink



He lied then.

Or maybe he had a change of heart.
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2011, 09:01:23 PM »

Welcome back.
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 09:07:04 PM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink



He lied then.

Or maybe he had a change of heart.

A change of heart would indicate a change of behavior. There is no behaviorial change noted in him; he continues to develop a case for his own unique interporetation of Christianity that has been described here previously as Perssonism.
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2011, 09:54:09 PM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink



He lied then.

Or maybe he had a change of heart.
Or maybe a change of feet?
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 10:21:20 PM »

Alfred!  I thought you shook our dust off your feet!   Wink



He lied then.

Or maybe he had a change of heart.
Or maybe a change of feet?

Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.   Huh
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2011, 02:24:46 AM »

Because God is Omniscient some believe references to God’s prescience an anthropomorphism, figurative language denoting a time yet future to us.

As first that seems logical as it is impossible anything exist past, present or future, that does not have God’s concurrence to exist:

And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col 1:17 ESV)

For in him we live, and move, and have our being (Act 17:28 KJV)
.
“The Holy One, blessed be He, is the place of His Universe, but His Universe is not His place” (Gen. R. LXVIII. 9). He encompasses space but space does not encompass Him."-(Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 8).

But that hasty generalization ignores the foreknowing happened before the foundation of the world, that is, before our time space continuum, past present and future, existed:

who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, (1Pe 1:20 ASV)

God the Eternal Son is not being foreknown here, rather the man Jesus as God’s Ransom sacrifice--- “the lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8) who as yet didn’t exist.

Something must exist to be known, otherwise there’s nothing to know about it. Therefore foreknowledge does not contradict omniscience.

Collaborating this are the texts showing the lamb was slain the moment God created, and that we already are in heavenly places, in the eternal now of God, but finite creatures living in time and space won’t know this till the coming ages:

“the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev 13:8 KJV)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:6-7 KJV)



So God’s foreknowledge is actual, and because its God who is foreknowing, its perfect. It follows those He foreknew were very real to Him, and that is when He loved the Elect, hence its impossible God cast them away:

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom 11:2 KJV)

When Paul cites God’s foreknowledge proof all things work together for their good, its likely because its when mutual love was experienced rendering impossible God cast them out. [/b][/i]

So election occurred via God’s omniscience, but it was foreknowing His Elect that benefits them.

As this foreknowledge is God knowing potentials, it logically includes seeing the Elect in an alternate reality without the Fall, the devil---nothing preventing their free will choice to love God forever.
 
It is logical God would preserve this record, for apologetic purposes, and out of concern for His beloved to remove any survivor’s guilt, lest they be plagued self doubt about themselves and God’s impartiality, forever.

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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2011, 10:10:14 AM »

God the Eternal Son is not being foreknown here, rather the man Jesus as God’s Ransom sacrifice--- “7It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.  And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue and nation.  8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written inthe Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:7-8 ) who as yet didn’t exist.

You need the rest of Revelation 13 to understand what you cited regarding the Antichrist and the authority God gives Antichrist to vanquish the Church. 

Besides, you have no idea what you're talking about.  Your posts are still rambling and incoherent.  However you spent your time away from this forum wasn't beneficial....
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2011, 11:55:39 AM »

Perhaps that's too much for one post, lets discuss the fundamental point:

Both Calvin and Arminius wrong as Election happened separate from foreknowledge and predestination:

28 We know God interacts with everything in the best interests of those who love him, those called to implement his purpose.
 29 Because he foreknew them, he also preplanned for them to conform to the image of his son that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 30 As for those he foresaw, he also called them; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
 31 What then is our response to these things? If God is on our side, what does it matter who is against us? (Rom 8:28-31 MIT WG MacDonald Idiomatic Translation of the New Testament, 2008)

 
Election is a fact in verse 28, not the subject. Paul is discussing all things working together for the elect’s good, and we know this is true BECAUSE (Ὅτι) God προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν  the Elect,  the two acts are cited as proof FOR the claim.


God did “Foreknow and (KAI) Predestine” those He had already elected, and this proves all things work together for their good.


The context has nothing to do with election per se, that’s why the non elect aren’t mentioned.


Election clearly is separate from foreknowledge and predestination, for neither happened to the angels yet some of their number are elect also:
 

21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. (1Ti 5:21 KJV)


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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 01:58:48 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 04:46:58 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them the Orthodox are, and therefore they are just as wrong.

...unless you can prove the Orthodox are right on this, with scripture.

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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 04:48:37 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.


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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 04:52:55 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)

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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 04:55:31 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

Now if you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)



"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject" (Titus 3:10)

You've been admonished more than twice.
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 04:57:19 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

Now if you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)



"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject" (Titus 3:10)

You've been admonished more than twice.

No, I am definitely not a heretick, but you dishonor me.

But as you have reached your limit, I will expect not to hear from you again.

Out of your own mouth, is the witness against you, if you keep admonishing me, against the apostles teaching.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 05:13:54 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 05:09:28 PM »

No, I am definitely not a heretick.

Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?   Huh

But as you have reached your limit, I will expect not to hear from you again.

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.

Out of your own mouth, is the witness against you, if you keep admonishing me, against the apostles teaching.

A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.   Wink
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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 05:10:35 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 05:14:46 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 05:16:22 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 05:26:47 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 06:34:55 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh

Reply 11: Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Reply 21: Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?    

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.
A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.    


That’s not dialogue, that’s hate.

I pray theives never strike me down where you walk, you'd finish the job.


The responses I've received so far are showcasing Orthodoxy, but not in the light Christ would approve.

ps: I didn't repay the insult with insult, and I followed Christ's lead in situations like this:

Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. (Joh 8:49 NKJ)


Won't anyone replicate Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho", defend your beliefs with scripture as he did...

I posted my arguments...its time you rebut them, if you can.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 06:49:39 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
ialmisry
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 06:53:39 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh

Reply 11: Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Reply 21: Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?    

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.
A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.    


That’s not dialogue, that’s hate.

I pray theives never strike me down where you walk, you'd finish the job.


The responses I've received so far are showcasing Orthodoxy, but not in the light Christ would approve.

ps: I didn't repay the insult with insult, and I followed Christ's lead in situations like this:

Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. (Joh 8:49 NKJ)


Won't anyone replicate Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho", defend your beliefs with scripture as he did...

I posted my arguments...its time you rebut them, if you can.
Christ I know and St. Justin Martyr I know, but who are you?

rambling does not an argument make.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 07:02:30 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh

Reply 11: Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Reply 21: Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?   

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.
A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.   


That’s not dialogue, that’s hate.

I pray theives never strike me down where you walk, you'd finish the job.


The responses I've received so far are showcasing Orthodoxy, but not in the light Christ would approve.


Won't anyone replicate Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho", defend the faith with scripture as he did...

I posted my arguments...its time you rebut them, if you can.

And it's time for you to actually study the Scriptures you claim to love so much and find out what they really say instead of jumping on the latest band wagon of what ever Protestant preacher you favor. You're arguments aren't arguments at all, its just you copying and pasting scripture to fit your most current idea.

Perhaps the people on this forum don't want to have an actual dialogue with you because of your past behavior on this forum; behavior such as false assumptions, straw men, completely ignoring those posts refuting your theories (there have been many), and general disrespect for Orthodoxy as a whole. No body wants to have a dialogue with you because they know that it will not profit them anything, we can not persuade you and you can not persuade us so there is no point in mocking the debate process on this forum any longer.

Even if we disregard your past behavior on this forum we still run into another problem with you. That problem is that you have told us that you are leaving this site for good, and then you pop back in here. We can not rightly trust your word because you have shown us through these actions that you can not be trusted, and if you can not be trusted by your actions how can you be trusted by your words? Actions speak louder than words, and you actions do not give us hope for any actual dialogue.

Now I am not saying all of this to hate on you, I am not trying to bash you. What I am saying is that if you truly desire to have a dialogue with us then show us that your actions have changed, don't try to claim that we can not refute your beliefs when no body decides to respond to you. We have seen too many times before how you have been refuted and yet you push on like nothing was said. Change your actions, respect us (truly respect us), respect our opinions, and stop trying to goad arguments out of us - then we might want to hold a dialogue with you.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 07:04:44 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh

Reply 11: Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Reply 21: Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?    

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.
A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.    


That’s not dialogue, that’s hate.

I pray theives never strike me down where you walk, you'd finish the job.


The responses I've received so far are showcasing Orthodoxy, but not in the light Christ would approve.


Won't anyone replicate Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho", defend the faith with scripture as he did...

I posted my arguments...its time you rebut them, if you can.

And it's time for you to actually study the Scriptures you claim to love so much and find out what they really say instead of jumping on the latest band wagon of what ever Protestant preacher you favor. You're arguments aren't arguments at all, its just you copying and pasting scripture to fit your most current idea.

Perhaps the people on this forum don't want to have an actual dialogue with you because of your past behavior on this forum; behavior such as false assumptions, straw men, completely ignoring those posts refuting your theories (there have been many), and general disrespect for Orthodoxy as a whole. No body wants to have a dialogue with you because they know that it will not profit them anything, we can not persuade you and you can not persuade us so there is no point in mocking the debate process on this forum any longer.

Even if we disregard your past behavior on this forum we still run into another problem with you. That problem is that you have told us that you are leaving this site for good, and then you pop back in here. We can not rightly trust your word because you have shown us through these actions that you can not be trusted, and if you can not be trusted by your actions how can you be trusted by your words? Actions speak louder than words, and you actions do not give us hope for any actual dialogue.

Now I am not saying all of this to hate on you, I am not trying to bash you. What I am saying is that if you truly desire to have a dialogue with us then show us that your actions have changed, don't try to claim that we can not refute your beliefs when no body decides to respond to you. We have seen too many times before how you have been refuted and yet you push on like nothing was said. Change your actions, respect us (truly respect us), respect our opinions, and stop trying to goad arguments out of us - then we might want to hold a dialogue with you.


Prove every charge you made, or apologize for the smear.


Is there no defender of the faith here?

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong?

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 07:07:23 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
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« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 07:11:57 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh

Reply 11: Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Reply 21: Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?    

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.
A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.    


That’s not dialogue, that’s hate.

I pray theives never strike me down where you walk, you'd finish the job.


The responses I've received so far are showcasing Orthodoxy, but not in the light Christ would approve.


Won't anyone replicate Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho", defend the faith with scripture as he did...

I posted my arguments...its time you rebut them, if you can.

And it's time for you to actually study the Scriptures you claim to love so much and find out what they really say instead of jumping on the latest band wagon of what ever Protestant preacher you favor. You're arguments aren't arguments at all, its just you copying and pasting scripture to fit your most current idea.

Perhaps the people on this forum don't want to have an actual dialogue with you because of your past behavior on this forum; behavior such as false assumptions, straw men, completely ignoring those posts refuting your theories (there have been many), and general disrespect for Orthodoxy as a whole. No body wants to have a dialogue with you because they know that it will not profit them anything, we can not persuade you and you can not persuade us so there is no point in mocking the debate process on this forum any longer.

Even if we disregard your past behavior on this forum we still run into another problem with you. That problem is that you have told us that you are leaving this site for good, and then you pop back in here. We can not rightly trust your word because you have shown us through these actions that you can not be trusted, and if you can not be trusted by your actions how can you be trusted by your words? Actions speak louder than words, and you actions do not give us hope for any actual dialogue.

Now I am not saying all of this to hate on you, I am not trying to bash you. What I am saying is that if you truly desire to have a dialogue with us then show us that your actions have changed, don't try to claim that we can not refute your beliefs when no body decides to respond to you. We have seen too many times before how you have been refuted and yet you push on like nothing was said. Change your actions, respect us (truly respect us), respect our opinions, and stop trying to goad arguments out of us - then we might want to hold a dialogue with you.


Prove every charge you made, or apologize for the smear.


Is there no defender of the faith here?

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong?

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him"-God, through the mouth of Solomon (Prov. 26:4).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 07:12:31 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 07:38:08 PM »

What have we to discuss? Heretical teachings about Predestination are not ravaging the Church; we are of one mind on this subject. The Fathers did not troll about, looking for debates with those outside the Catholic Church who would not submit to their authority anyway. The Fathers presented the truth, and people could take it or leave it.

So here's the truth. This is the third Decree of the Confession of Dositheus.

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth {1 Timothy 2:4}. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.

But to say, as the most wicked heretics do and as is contained in the Chapter [of Cyril's' Confession] to which this answers — that God, in predestinating, or condemning, did not consider in any way the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promises the believer salvation through works, yet supposes God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestows without preceding works, to show to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate with it, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain  salvation. He takes not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.

But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater defamation can be fixed upon God? and what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High?  We do know that the Deity is not tempted with evils, {cf. James 1:13} and that He equally wills the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him. we do confess that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonor, there is justly decreed condemnation.  But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who tells us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. {Luke 15:7} Far be it from us, while we have our senses, to believe or to think this; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels.


And a bit from Decree 14.

A man, therefore, before he is regenerated, is able by nature to incline to what is good, and to choose and work moral good. But for the regenerated to do spiritual good — for the works of the believer being contributory to salvation and wrought by supernatural grace are properly called spiritual — it is necessary that he be guided and prevented [preceded] by grace, as has been said in treating of predestination. Consequently, he is not able of himself to do any work worthy of a Christian life, although he has it in his own power to will, or not to will, to co-operate with grace.

(Source)

You can take it or leave it, but this is the truth as it has been proclaimed by the synod of Jerusalem in 1672. This is all I intend to post on the matter.
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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 07:59:32 PM »

Prove every charge you made, or apologize for the smear.

Is there no defender of the faith here?

Sorry, no one else is defending your faith.

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong?

We have.  You won't listen.  Dianetics is a pretty thick book if I recall although I will never read it.

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

We have cited from the Fathers which have fallen on your deaf ears.

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.

It is you who is behaving differently.  You made the choice to behave in the manner that you have on this forum.  Our choice is in how we respond to you and many have chosen to ignore you rather than dialogue with you on things that we deem heretical.  After all, Protestantism broke away from Roman Catholicism because each Protestant wanted to be Pope.  You choose to follow "Pope" John MacArthur and came on this forum to lead us astray....
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 08:44:31 PM »

Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.

I understand if you don't know what the orthodox believe, but why respond to my post if that's the case?

If you do know, how does your response comply with apostolic doctrine:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)
The Lord's express command:
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Mat. 10:14 (KJV)

Adios! Have a good trip!

I'm staying to see if any will dialogue with me, which i believe is the purpose of the board, to showcase Orthodoxy.

You won't dialogue with me - does that mean Orthodoxy has won?   Huh

But is it really about winning or losing ... or your absolute failure to make your points on this forum.   Huh

Reply 11: Or maybe the OP read all the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Reply 21: Is that always the defense given by heretics ... No, I'm not a heretic but that guy is a heretic?   

Your time away from the forum was not well spent.  Instead of coming back in humility, your arrogance remains at that level from March 2011.
A self-fulfilling prophecy ... pertaining to you.   


That’s not dialogue, that’s hate.

I pray theives never strike me down where you walk, you'd finish the job.


The responses I've received so far are showcasing Orthodoxy, but not in the light Christ would approve.


Won't anyone replicate Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho", defend the faith with scripture as he did...

I posted my arguments...its time you rebut them, if you can.

And it's time for you to actually study the Scriptures you claim to love so much and find out what they really say instead of jumping on the latest band wagon of what ever Protestant preacher you favor. You're arguments aren't arguments at all, its just you copying and pasting scripture to fit your most current idea.

Perhaps the people on this forum don't want to have an actual dialogue with you because of your past behavior on this forum; behavior such as false assumptions, straw men, completely ignoring those posts refuting your theories (there have been many), and general disrespect for Orthodoxy as a whole. No body wants to have a dialogue with you because they know that it will not profit them anything, we can not persuade you and you can not persuade us so there is no point in mocking the debate process on this forum any longer.

Even if we disregard your past behavior on this forum we still run into another problem with you. That problem is that you have told us that you are leaving this site for good, and then you pop back in here. We can not rightly trust your word because you have shown us through these actions that you can not be trusted, and if you can not be trusted by your actions how can you be trusted by your words? Actions speak louder than words, and you actions do not give us hope for any actual dialogue.

Now I am not saying all of this to hate on you, I am not trying to bash you. What I am saying is that if you truly desire to have a dialogue with us then show us that your actions have changed, don't try to claim that we can not refute your beliefs when no body decides to respond to you. We have seen too many times before how you have been refuted and yet you push on like nothing was said. Change your actions, respect us (truly respect us), respect our opinions, and stop trying to goad arguments out of us - then we might want to hold a dialogue with you.


Prove every charge you made, or apologize for the smear.


Is there no defender of the faith here? (goading)

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong?
(more goading)

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.

Red text above is mine.

First up, telling us that you are leaving (and disrespect):

(sigh) Pearls before swine, folks ...
Yup. That, and don't feed the troll. Wink

Put this under your hat, you got lots of room there. People follow you out of morbid curiosity.

When I meet a moderator calling me a troll, I realize I've met boob who can look through a key hole with both  eyes.

A pin head whose brain, if put on top of a razor, would look like a pea rolling down a four lane highway.

If you don't think this Christian, you don't know Christ, He would have lots more things to say about you.

You, sir, have crossed the line of rudeness.

While discussion of greater discipline for you has been conducted, it was decided to continue to allow you to post here due to the following reasons:

1. Your poorly structured "arguments" display for all this site the lack of substance behind anyone holding your position.

2. You entertain many of us with your belief system.

The consequences of your  Post Moderation status has been explained to you previously.

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Being called swine and troll by moderators was the last straw...


I shake the dust off my feet of this place. May the peace I brought, leave with me.



Next, false assumptions:
Who cares what Calvin and Arminius thought? This is not a Reformed forum.

So, they cover the full spectrum of thought on this. Somewhere between them you are

Except they don't, and we're not. They are not a part of our doctrinal heritage. All the time you spend posting interminable essays on this website you could better spend learning about Orthodoxy and its history.


Quote
unless you can prove you aren't.

The false assumptions you make are your own problem, not ours.


On to straw man:



Therefore, all who image the flesh of Jesus, and insist this does not contradict De 4:15f, thereby deny 1)He is God; 2)The Word became male human flesh.



^Here is a straw man and false assumption rolled into one.

This I believe leaves us with you being refuted:

Sola Scripture is a contradiction of terms. The scriptures of the Bible were selected by the Church through Tradition. So accepting scripture is in itself accepting Tradition.


I'm playing. But no one will play with me Sad

Incorrect, sola scriptura is the logical consequence of solum verbum dei which Catholics, including the Orthodox, believe.

Where we differ is what we define as the deposit of the faith, i.e., what constitutes the  "word of God," while you include tradition, we do not.

Both both of us can find solum verbum dei in scripture:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)

The real contradiction, is in your position. If God wanted your traditions added to the Word of God, He would have said so:

 2 "You shall add to the word which I command you, not take from it, that you may keep the commandments we command you.


Tradition is the Word of God. Scripture is only that part of Tradition which was written down and accepted by the Church as being true. Accepting scripture is accepting Tradition.

He did say so. You only know what the Church wrote you do not know what He said. Only the Church does.

Refuted twice and yet you still pressed on. Another refutation:

a)why they ran into the lake

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom
But for what intent did the devils destroy the swine? Everywhere they have labored to drive men to dismay, and everywhere they rejoice in destruction. This, for instance, the devil did with respect to Job, although in that case too God suffered it, but neither in that case as complying with the devil, but willing to show His own servant the more glorious, cutting off from the evil spirit all pretext for his shamelessness, and turning on his own head what was done against the righteous man. Because now also the contrary of what they wished came to pass. For the power of Christ was gloriously proclaimed, and the wickedness of the demons, from which He delivered those possessed by them, was more plainly indicated; and how they want power to touch even swine, without permission from the God of all.
And if any would take these things in a hidden sense, there is nothing to hinder. For the history indeed is this, but we are to know assuredly, that the swinish sort of men are especially liable to the operations of the demons. And as long as they are men that suffer such things, they are often able yet to prevail; but if they are become altogether swine, they are not only possessed, but are also cast down the precipice. And besides, lest any should suppose what was done to be mere acting, instead of distinctly believing that the devils were gone out; by the death of the swine this is rendered manifest.
And mark also His meekness together with His power. For when the inhabitants of that country, after having received such benefits, were driving Him away, He resisted not, but retired, and left those who had shown themselves unworthy of His teaching, having given them for teachers them that had been freed from the demons, and the swine-herds, that they might of them learn all that had happened; whilst Himself retiring leaves the fear vigorous in them. For the greatness withal of the loss was spreading the fame of what had been done, and the event penetrated their mind. And from many quarters were wafted sounds, proclaiming the strangeness of the miracle; from the cured, and from the drowned, from the owners of the swine, from the men that were feeding them.
Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.XXVIII.html



b)what happened to them after they did

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom
. . .the devils destroy[ed] the swine. . .
Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.XXVIII.html



c)why Jesus agreed to their request

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom
Now, should any one say, “And wherefore did Christ fulfill the devils’ request, suffering them to depart into the herd of swine?” this would be our reply, that He did so, not as yielding to them, but as providing for many objects thereby. One, to teach them that are delivered from those wicked tyrants, how great the malice of their insidious enemies: another, that all might learn, how not even against swine are they bold, except He allow them; a third, that they would have treated those men more grievously than the swine, unless even in their calamity they had enjoyed much of God’s providential care. For that they hate us more than the brutes is surely evident to every man. So then they that spared not the swine, but in one moment of time cast them all down the precipice, much more would they have done so to the men whom they possessed, leading them towards the desert, and carrying them away, unless even in their very tyranny the guardian care of God had abounded, to curb and check the excess of their violence. Whence it is manifest that there is no one, who doth not enjoy the benefit of God’s providence. And if not all alike, nor after one manner, this is itself a very great instance of providence; in that according to each man’s profit, the work also of providence is displayed.
And besides what hath been mentioned, there is another thing also, which we learn from this; that His providence is not only over all in common, but also over each in particular; which He also declared with respect to His disciples, saying, “But the very hairs of your head are numbered.” And from these demoniacs too, one may clearly perceive this; who would have “been choked” long before, if they had not enjoyed the benefit of much tender care from above.
For these reasons then He suffered them to depart into the herd of swine, and that they also who dwelt in those places should learn His power. For where His name was great, He did not greatly display Himself: but where no one knew Him, but they were still in an insensible condition, He made His miracles to shine out, so as to bring them over to the knowledge of His Godhead. For it is evident from the event that the inhabitants of that city were a sort of senseless people; for when they ought to have adored and marvelled at His power, they sent Him away, and “besought Him that He would depart out of their coasts.”
Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.XXVIII.html

And another:

Sola Scripture is a contradiction of terms. The scriptures of the Bible were selected by the Church through Tradition. So accepting scripture is in itself accepting Tradition.


I'm playing. But no one will play with me Sad

Incorrect, sola scriptura is the logical consequence of solum verbum dei which Catholics, including the Orthodox, believe.

Where we differ is what we define as the deposit of the faith, i.e., what constitutes the  "word of God," while you include tradition, we do not.

Both both of us can find solum verbum dei in scripture:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)

The real contradiction, is in your position. If God wanted your traditions added to the Word of God, He would have said so:

 2 "You shall add to the word which I command you, not take from it, that you may keep the commandments we command you.


Tradition is the Word of God. Scripture is only that part of Tradition which was written down and accepted by the Church as being true. Accepting scripture is accepting Tradition.

He did say so. You only know what the Church wrote you do not know what He said. Only the Church does.


Dart is correct. Alfred is positing a false dichotomy between Scripture and Tradition. Scripture and Holy Tradtion come in and through the Church. Sola Scripturists sever the branches (Scripture) from the roots (The Church). Apart from their Life-giving source, the Scriptures become malleable to the subjective interpretations of the individual and individual sects- all claiming to have the proper "hermeneutical principles." We must not forget that satan himself was a skilled biblical apologist.


Selam

And another post showing that we can not trust you by your actions (see red bolded text):



If you don't believe Paul said what he clearly says in the text, offer your own interpretation...I will certainly contradict it with Paul's clear statements.

No, you will contradict it by quoting scripture out of context like you always do, then when we prove you wrong enough times you will start yet another thread with some new title that deals with the same issues and hope that we don't catch on to your petty little games.

BTW I brought up your jumping the gun on the allotted time for a reason, but since I have been busy training I have not had ample time to bring it up.

See you said
Quote
I will give you folks till 0001 Tuesday, PST to find the interpretation of this parable in your tradition.


Sometime after that I will explain the parable, and you will know precisely:

a)why they ran into the lake;
b)what happened to them after they did;
c)why Jesus agreed to their request

Everything about this will be revealed. AND you will know the interpretation is correct, because the Holy Spirit will bear you witness, grant you perception it is correct.

You clearly stated that you would explain the parable after 0001 PST. But you did not, you became impatient. If you become impatient like this how do we know that you are not impatient when making decisions in life? How do we know that you are not impatient when trying to interpret scripture?

You have failed this time around because you also said
Quote
If I don't deliver, you are right.

If I do deliver, then sola scriptura is correct, God gave me this sign, to give to you.

Its for your benefit, not mine.

You have not delivered to our satisfaction, you have not made it clear to us that Sola Scriptura is the way to go. And yes, you do have to deliver and prove to our satisfaction, not yours. You are trying to convince us not yourself (though sometimes I do think you are trying to convince yourself as well). The burden of proof rests on you since you came here making claims against our Church. You have not done a very good job at all of convincing any of us that we should turn away from our faith (and in some cases turn back). This isn't pigheadedness on our parts, many people have told you how they were Protestant of one denomination or the other and your only retort is that they must not have really been that denomination for they do not think alike, or only attended a few time. You apply your own attributions to us (i.e. attending a few times, not thinking like the denomination you are a part of) and hope that we don't see the ruse.

I will tell you this; I was a Southern Baptist. I believed that Scripture could be interpreted by anybody using their own methods. I was even an ordained minister before I converted. But the biggest thing that turned me away from the Protestants was Sola Scriptura because every denomination had its own interpretation and no interpretation was the same as the other even in sub-groups (like free-will baptist, southern baptist, independent baptist etc). Even if they did agree 80% of the time why then did they not agree 100% of the time? Surely the Church was not always divided as such! It was when I was in Iraq and I started to study the Bible on my free time that I realized that the Church had been one unified body. Christ said that the Church would stand and being divided how could it stand? I did a lot of research and I came to the conclusion that the Orthodox Church was the one, unified Church still standing after all of these years. It was no easy task deciding to convert either, I didn't want to give up the faith that I learned from my parents. But I swallowed my pride and I set myself on the path I could feel the Holy Spirit dragging me to; I had a lot of arguments as to why the Orthodox Church was wrong, and one by one they were shot down.

Many people have a story just like mine, we all started out at the same place and ended in the same place. We did our research, we swallowed our pride, but most importantly we submitted ourselves to the Holy Spirit. This is why you MUST convince us to our satisfaction, we left what you proclaim so loudly  - we were there once and we became convinced that Sola Scriptura was and is wrong. Your shoddy arguments do not stand against almost two thousand years of Tradition. You claim to know better than the fathers who built the religion you claim, even those who were disciples of the Apostles and sometimes even the Apostles themselves.

The burden of proof rests on you, Alfred, and so far you have failed in your every endeavor on this board.

I have delivered. Of course you will most likely say that the quotes above don't really prove anything at all and still demand an apology. You might even fall back on your old tactic of not reading long posts. But, alas, that seems the game to be played... Any more questions?
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 09:54:12 PM »

I have delivered. Of course you will most likely say that the quotes above don't really prove anything at all and still demand an apology. You might even fall back on your old tactic of not reading long posts. But, alas, that seems the game to be played... Any more questions?

Is there no defender of the faith here? (goading)

Is God goading?:
Thus says your Lord, The LORD and your God, Who pleads the cause of His people:  (Isa 51:22 NKJ)


Rather than goading, this is accurate commentary on the responses I received:

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong? (more goading)

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.



How is it Orthodox honor the fathers, when they don’t treat me as the fathers would have…

What father responds to Bible argument the way you folks have?

Name one father that answered similar as you folks do in this thread, to me.

You cannot, because the Fathers are like me, they knew the scripture, and cited it for their beliefs. Compare any of my OP, and you will see apologetic like that of the fathers.

Compare any of your responses, and you see how unbelievers treated God's servants, Jesus and His apostles.

That is a fact.


I want to discuss Bible doctrine, with someone who knows what the orthodox believe…and so far, no one like that has appeared.

That is odd indeed, very unlike the fathers you claim to honor.





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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 10:07:07 PM »

I have delivered. Of course you will most likely say that the quotes above don't really prove anything at all and still demand an apology. You might even fall back on your old tactic of not reading long posts. But, alas, that seems the game to be played... Any more questions?

Is there no defender of the faith here? (goading)

Is God goading?:
Thus says your Lord, The LORD and your God, Who pleads the cause of His people:  (Isa 51:22 NKJ)


Rather than goading, this is accurate commentary on the responses I received:

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong? (more goading)

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.



How is it Orthodox honor the fathers, when they don’t treat me as the fathers would have…

What father responds to Bible argument the way you folks have?

Name one father that answered similar as you folks do in this thread, to me.

You cannot, because the Fathers are like me, they knew the scripture, and cited it for their beliefs. Compare any of my OP, and you will see apologetic like that of the fathers.

Compare any of your responses, and you see how unbelievers treated God's servants, Jesus and His apostles.

That is a fact.


I want to discuss Bible doctrine, with someone who knows what the orthodox believe…and so far, no one like that has appeared.

That is odd indeed, very unlike the fathers you claim to honor.







Are you familiar with the term "prelest"?

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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 10:34:51 PM »

I have delivered. Of course you will most likely say that the quotes above don't really prove anything at all and still demand an apology. You might even fall back on your old tactic of not reading long posts. But, alas, that seems the game to be played... Any more questions?

Is there no defender of the faith here? (goading)

Is God goading?:
Thus says your Lord, The LORD and your God, Who pleads the cause of His people:  (Isa 51:22 NKJ)

No, God is not goading, but you are goading especially as you presume to speak for Him.

Quote
Rather than goading, this is accurate commentary on the responses I received:

Not one who will do as the fathers did, take up the scriptures and prove where I am wrong? (more goading)

That is what the fathers did...profusely...

You honor them, yet behave differently, its inconsistent.

Why should we take up the scriptures and prove you wrong like the Fathers did? They already proved you wrong for us, profusely!


Quote
How is it Orthodox honor the fathers, when they don’t treat me as the fathers would have…

What father responds to Bible argument the way you folks have?

Name one father that answered similar as you folks do in this thread, to me.

You cannot, because the Fathers are like me, they knew the scripture, and cited it for their beliefs. Compare any of my OP, and you will see apologetic like that of the fathers.

Compare any of your responses, and you see how unbelievers treated God's servants, Jesus and His apostles.

That is a fact.

You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means...

Quote
I want to discuss Bible doctrine, with someone who knows what the orthodox believe…and so far, no one like that has appeared.

That is odd indeed, very unlike the fathers you claim to honor.

Then actually discuss Bible doctrine! Plenty of people engaged you when you first appeared on this thread. Prove to us you really want an honest to God discussion, prove to us you will actually respect what we say. And please, do not ever equate yourself with the Early Church Fathers, who surely did know scripture far beyond that of any of us on this thread, again; if you knew scripture like they did then you would be in the same Church they were in.

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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 10:47:25 PM »

Does anyone here honestly think they can change Alfred by continuing to engage him? So why are you all still trying?
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« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 01:00:01 AM »

Then actually discuss Bible doctrine!...

Sure:

The Orthodox believe "God's acts according to foreknowledge" http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_reformed.aspx

That cannot be correct for it is written:

8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,-NET Bible

"Because" in dialogue identifies what follows is the premise for the conclusion in vs 28.

Its clear God's Omniscience elected, and then He treats the Elect differently than the non elect, He predestines they be saved.

THAT is why the non elect aren't in the context, they are irrelevant, this isn't about election, its about all things working together for the elect's good.


Paul confirms this saying we were chosen "according to the good pleasure of His will" which precludes it was according to His foreknowledge of us:


 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:4-5 KJV)

Therefore Calvin, Arminius, the Orthodox...everyone misreading this context, which isn't about election, are wrong.
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« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2011, 09:41:36 AM »

Then actually discuss Bible doctrine!...

Sure:

The Orthodox believe "God's acts according to foreknowledge" http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_reformed.aspx

That cannot be correct for it is written:

8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,-NET Bible

"Because" in dialogue identifies what follows is the premise for the conclusion in vs 28.

Its clear God's Omniscience elected, and then He treats the Elect differently than the non elect, He predestines they be saved.

THAT is why the non elect aren't in the context, they are irrelevant, this isn't about election, its about all things working together for the elect's good.


Paul confirms this saying we were chosen "according to the good pleasure of His will" which precludes it was according to His foreknowledge of us:


 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:4-5 KJV)

Therefore Calvin, Arminius, the Orthodox...everyone misreading this context, which isn't about election, are wrong.

Maybe it is my simple mind unable to grasp what you are trying to say here, but in no way do I see how the verses you cited negate that "God acts according to foreknowledge" especially since the website you posted says that...

Quote
"predestination" is basically another way of saying "God's acts according to foreknowledge"

If you wish to see the Orthodox stand point on this... (from a link found in the article that you posted above http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/orthhtrdx/e_P15.htm#Saints)

Quote
THE TEACHING ON PREDESTINATION AND THE VENERATION OF SAINTS. Luther and his followers could not bring themselves to draw the extreme conclusions that logically flowed from their false teaching on man's salvation. Calvin and Zwingli and their reformer-followers proved to be more consis-tent. If good works have no significance whatsoever in the matter of salvation, if man through sin has lost every capacity for good, and if even faith - the sole condition for salvation - is God's gift, the question naturally arises: why then are not all men saved, why do some receive grace, while others believe and perish? There can be only one answer to this question, and the reformers give it: "From eternity, God predestined some for salvation, others for perdition, and this predestination depends not at all on a man's personal freedom and life."

The erroneousness of the reformers'teaching is obvious. It perverts the truly Christian understanding of God's justice and mercy, of man's worth and purpose as a free and rational being. God appears here not as a loving, merciful Father, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), but as a cruel, unjust despot, who saves some without any merit and dooms others without fault to perdition.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes predestination, but does not consider it unconditional, that is, independent of men's free well and based on a groundless decision of the divine will. Accord-ing to Orthodox teaching, God, as omniscient, knows, foresees the moral state of men and, on the basis of this foresight, preordains, predetermines for them a certain fate.

But He does not preordain for anyone a definite moral state; He does not preordain either a virtuous or a sinful life and does not at all inhibit our freedom. Therefore, even the Apostle Paul, whom the reformers cite, very closely connects the teaching on predestination with the teaching on God's foresight. In the Epistle to the Romans, he explains this thought in detail, and, incidentally, says concerning predestina-tion: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son? Moreover whom he did pre-destinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). In this way, God predestinates to glory not according to His groundless arbitrariness, as the reformers think, but according to His foreknowledge of a man's merits accomplished through his free will.

Please forgive me, but again I really do not see what you are trying to get at here, Alfred. Are you saying that predestination exists? If so, it would appear that the Orthodox agree, to a point. Are you saying that God does not act according to foreknowledge? If so, how could there be those predestined? I'm sorry but I am afraid you are going to need to spell this out for me... maybe its just my lack of caffeine. Can somebody else maybe clue me in?
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« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 10:56:10 AM »

That site was giving the Orthodox position, not mine. Its where I got the quote.

I think your quote reverses the order, that Luther got reprobation from his soteriology, he rather got it from here:

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" (Rom 9:18-19 NKJ)

And they inferred it from Rom 8:29ff reasoning if the elect only are predestined to salvation, that implies the non elect are predestined to damnation.

I don’t believe in reprobation, but that is a tangent we can discuss if you like, but for now I’d rather clear up any confusion about what I said.

Some argue God is omniscient therefore God “foreknowing” is anthropomorphic, figurative language only.

But that is based upon a hasty generalization fallacy as it ignores “there is nothing to know about non existent entities.”

In other words, God’s omniscience covers all that exists, and all God muses may exist, but not what doesn’t exist because there is nothing to know when it does not exist.

So whenever God contemplates bringing something into existence, then everything about it is instantly known.

So God’s omniscient knowledge of all that exists would increase, the moment He contemplates adding to what exists.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, (Eph 1:4 KJV)

While you can call this “foreknowledge”, Election here is a function of God’s omniscience.


Foreknowledge is an aspect of God’s omniscience. While God’s instantly knowing whatever He contemplates creating could be called foreknowledge, Romans 8:28ff isn't about election, its about all things working together for the Elect’s good and both foreknowing and predestining the elect are being cited as PROOF of the proposition---HOTI "Because" in dialogue identifies what follows is the premise for the conclusion in vs 28.

As verse 28 has Election as a fact, then verse 29 cites foreknowing and predestining in a different relation, different from knowing when He Elected---foreknowing is an aspect of God's omniscience and not an anthropomorphism.

I infer from Rom 11:2 that God’s foreknowing “highlights” what is already known, perhaps making it as real as gets without actually creating it.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom 11:2 KJV)

The implication is God knew these in a special way, that it became “personal” when God foreknew them. Now He cannot cast them away.

To sum up, if one accepts the Scripture’s teaching God foreknows, and not call it figurative only, then foreknowledge is knowing what God already knows, in a special way.


Hence if the Orthodox mean God elects according to His foreknowledge, and they point to Rom 8:29 as proof, they are wrong, the context isn’t about election, its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.

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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 10:57:49 AM »

prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.
So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2011, 11:07:09 AM »

prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.
So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 11:18:25 AM »

prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.
So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.
OK, let me explain this slowly.
You say:
"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 11:25:42 AM »

Therefore if, as you claim, "election" precedes "foreknowledge", then God:
A) Elected the elect without foreknowledge (which means it was a random choice), and
B)God is not omniscient since He was once ignorant of the future and later gained foreknowledge (after He chose the elect).
Which, of course, is a load of cobblers.
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2011, 12:19:13 PM »

In other words, God’s omniscience covers all that exists, and all God muses may exist, but not what doesn’t exist because there is nothing to know when it does not exist.

So whenever God contemplates bringing something into existence, then everything about it is instantly known.

So God’s omniscient knowledge of all that exists would increase, the moment He contemplates adding to what exists.
So is what you're trying to say that for God, all creation is an eternal present? If so, that seems very Orthodox to me. That's why our prayers can be effective even outside of time - how often have you prayed for someone or something and then found out that your prayer was answered unbeknownst to you long before you prayed it? It's also why our liturgical life is so meaningful. Let this be a bit of explanation about what I mean: We do not reenact the events of Christ's life - e.g., Transfiguration - but on August 6 we recognize and celebrate its eternal and present significance.
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2011, 12:19:51 PM »

prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.
So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.
OK, let me explain this slowly.
You say:
"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?

It is written:

 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

The implication is this is special knowing, one in which God loved these, therefore it must be a particular act of omniscience, and not the same knowing everyone else.

It does not follow God didn't know before this, rather He now knows them in a special way, among all that is known, what is relevant to these particular people is now distinguished in an unique act of knowing called foreknowing.

In Rom 8:29 same word, and like as here, the foreknowing is distinguished from God's general foreknowing all things before He created...its special foreknowing, one that proves all things work together for their good.

As this foreknowing wasn't to elect them, its irrelevant to election. It was done for other reasons.

In other words, when God thought He would create, all was known to Him, He is omniscient. Its then He elected.

The foreknowing in Rom 8:29 is cited as proof all things work together for their good, its not cited to teach how God elected. They were already elect in verse 9:28. Here God knows them in a special way, and this proves all things work together for their good. For example, those God foreknows this way, He does not cast off:

 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)



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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2011, 12:30:32 PM »

prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.
So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.
OK, let me explain this slowly.
You say:
"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?

It is written:

 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

The implication is this is special knowing, one in which God loved these, therefore it must be a particular act of omniscience, and not the same knowing everyone else.

It does not follow God didn't know before this, rather He now knows them in a special way, among all that is known, what is relevant to these particular people is now distinguished in an unique act of knowing called foreknowing.

In Rom 8:29 same word, and like as here, the foreknowing is distinguished from God's general foreknowing all things before He created...its special foreknowing, one that proves all things work together for their good.


As this foreknowing wasn't to elect them, your question only reflects you didn't understand what I said.

What on Earth is "a special foreknowing" as distinct from a "general foreknowing"? And how in Heaven's name can any "foreknowing" be an "act"? I think it's actually you who don't understand what you're saying. Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2011, 12:41:04 PM »

prior to this particular act of foreknowledge.
So you believe that God was once ignorant and later gained foreknowledge?

Nope, read it again.
OK, let me explain this slowly.
You say:
"... its about all things that work together for the elects good, who were already elected prior to this particular act of foreknowledge."

But how can the "elect" be "elected" prior to God's "act of foreknowledge" without these two so-called "acts of God" (i.e. "electing" and "foreknowledge") being in a certain chronological order?

It is written:

 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Rom 11:2 NKJ)

The implication is this is special knowing, one in which God loved these, therefore it must be a particular act of omniscience, and not the same knowing everyone else.

It does not follow God didn't know before this, rather He now knows them in a special way, among all that is known, what is relevant to these particular people is now distinguished in an unique act of knowing called foreknowing.

In Rom 8:29 same word, and like as here, the foreknowing is distinguished from God's general foreknowing all things before He created...its special foreknowing, one that proves all things work together for their good.


As this foreknowing wasn't to elect them, your question only reflects you didn't understand what I said.

What on Earth is "a special foreknowing" as distinct from a "general foreknowing"? And how in Heaven's name can any "foreknowing" be an "act"? I think it's actually you who don't understand what you're saying. Smiley


A deliberate choice to know is an act. God is not unconscious, He chooses what He does, and those are acts.

Its clear God knew everyone before He created, so in a sense we were all foreknown. But in Rom 8:29 foreknowledge refers to something different than God knowing all things before He created, because its cited as a proof all things work together for the elects good.

How would it prove that, if God foreknew the reprobate also in the precise same way...then its not proof all things work together for good.

So God's foreknowing the elect must be different than His Omniscient foreknowing everyone else, its unique, special.


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« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2011, 12:52:02 PM »

In other words, God’s omniscience covers all that exists, and all God muses may exist, but not what doesn’t exist because there is nothing to know when it does not exist.

So whenever God contemplates bringing something into existence, then everything about it is instantly known.

So God’s omniscient knowledge of all that exists would increase, the moment He contemplates adding to what exists.
So is what you're trying to say that for God, all creation is an eternal present? If so, that seems very Orthodox to me. That's why our prayers can be effective even outside of time - how often have you prayed for someone or something and then found out that your prayer was answered unbeknownst to you long before you prayed it? It's also why our liturgical life is so meaningful. Let this be a bit of explanation about what I mean: We do not reenact the events of Christ's life - e.g., Transfiguration - but on August 6 we recognize and celebrate its eternal and present significance.

I agree its "an eternal present" to God. I never made the connection to prayer as you have, but its possible. I thank God Christ's sacrifice is always a propitiation for my sin.
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« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2011, 12:58:41 PM »

God's foreknowing the elect must be different than His foreknowing everyone else
Yes, of course. As explained by this simple flowchart:

Repeating things ad nauseum doesn't 'prove' them any more than flapping your arms will get you to the moon.
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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2011, 12:23:41 AM »

Therefore if, as you claim, "election" precedes "foreknowledge", then God:
A) Elected the elect without foreknowledge (which means it was a random choice), and
B)God is not omniscient since He was once ignorant of the future and later gained foreknowledge (after He chose the elect).
Which, of course, is a load of cobblers.


Your theory of omniscience requires God know all that could exist, every possible combination thereof, even if He never ever would create it,  has a fatal flaw which, if you can answer, then I might agree with you:

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

Answer that, and perhaps I will believe God must bore Himself with things that will never exist, but could, if only God would create them.





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« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2011, 12:31:21 AM »

Aw, fer cryin' out loud, Alfred, go away.  Get another hobby.
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« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2011, 09:05:41 AM »

Aw, fer cryin' out loud, Alfred, go away.  Get another hobby.

Can't answer?

The reason why I am right, and your view of omniscience is wrong, is this paradox:

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.


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« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2011, 10:10:39 AM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2011, 10:22:26 AM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.


There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2011, 10:47:25 AM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.


There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.



But we're not talking about "possible quantum states", we're talking about what really exists. Being outside of time and creator of time, God knows all things within time from outside of it. Words like "already", "moment", and "until" seem to describe things that happen within time, which God is not bound to.
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2011, 11:06:32 AM »

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.

There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.


I do hope you've learned, Alfred, that as an Orthodox Christian I would say that my salvation is my becoming the man that God created me to be. (Yes, it includes conversion as you understand it; yes, it includes making my own choice to follow Him as you understand it - all that and more.)

So how will what you're trying to get at here help me in my quest for salvation? And I'm referring to the very specific point on which you are attempting to instruct us here - about what God knows or doesn't know, or even when it become knowable by God or anyone else.

Perhaps you could begin by describing how this doctrine you are proclaiming has helped you become a better Christian and a better person.
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2011, 11:45:56 AM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.


There is no paradox.

God can think new things His omniscience doesn’t already know, because the moment God ponders a potential, His omniscience simultaneously knows all there is to know about it.

This does not contradict true omniscience because, until God thought of it, it was nothing---not even a potential, and there is nothing to know about nothing.



But we're not talking about "possible quantum states", we're talking about what really exists. Being outside of time and creator of time, God knows all things within time from outside of it. Words like "already", "moment", and "until" seem to describe things that happen within time, which God is not bound to.

ozgeorge in Repy #43, "b" said differently, and its a straw man, but it represents his thinking and I've been arguing against his definition ever since:

B)God is not omniscient since He was once ignorant of the future and later gained foreknowledge (after He chose the elect).
Which, of course, is a load of cobblers.



"later gained foreknowedge" must be a typo, likely he means later gained knowledge. AND God is omnipresent, the moment He mused about creating, He knew all about it. Then, He chose the elect. But scripture doesn't give us the reasons God chose, save to say its not because of who we are (Rom 9:11), or what we do (Eph 2:8), but because of the good purpose of His will (Eph 1:4f).

But ozgeorge's essential premise is to reject Omniscient God wouldn't know everything, including every quantum state of everything that could possibly exist. I say that is a load of cobblers.

You both have a contradiciton, while you rightly argue God is not bound by time, creation is. Creation has a beginning when things began existing, it has a potential beginning the moment God mused to create it.

It was nothing prior to that, and there are no entities in "the nothing" to know.

THAT is what I have been arguing, and you aren't addressing that. God chose us "before the founding of the world," that is, before He created.

What was before that time, before God mused about creating...nothing and in "the nothing" there are no entities to chose.

So God couldn't have chosen us, before He first mused He might create---then we potentially existed, and it was then God chose.


This has nothing to do with time, it may be linear, but its still must be correct.

Hence the paradox for those who claim this contradicts omniscience. No it does not, as long as you don't demand God know every quantum state of everything that could exist. If you demand that, then you have the paradox which proves your view isn't accurate:

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2011, 12:52:09 PM »

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2011, 02:29:34 PM »

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.

This contradicts that idea:

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This person dies for his sin, but his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:


 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

This book of life has the names of God's chosen was written from the foundation of the world:

...whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world... (Rev 17:8 NKJ)

All who rise up from hades, in the day of the LORD Jesus, whose names are in the book of life, are NOT cast into the lake of fire.

So their oil lamps were not burning when Christ returned, and they ended up in hades, waiting for the 1000 reign of Christ to end, and the resurrection of all who ever lived, begin.


There are many of God's Elect, who aren't ready when Christ returns, and were not ready when they died...these go to hell upon death, and in torments, they can reflect upon their sin and repent:


 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)


For example, the Pharisee who died was a child of Abraham, an Israelite, one of those Paul says won't be cast off, even though they must go through hell first:

 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)

Although elect of God, he died a sinner, and God will by no means allow a sinner not pay for His sin...without the ransom propitiation of Christ, wickedness will be avenged:
 

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.  

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.  

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.  

(Luk 16:24-26 KJV)  

 

This Pharisee learned too late he wasn’t saved. That he was a child of God is clear from Abraham’s calling him that. Also, children of God would not feel such sympathy for a child of the devil, being they rejected God willfully, and did evil by choice.  

 
More proof this “rich man” was a repentant sinner in hell is evident by his concern for others, that they also not end up in hell with him (Lu 16:27ff). Only a child of God, when his cry for help was turned down, would think of others…a child of the devil would have begun cursing.  

 But those in hell, even if Christ were to return tomorrow, must wait till AFTER His thousand year reign on earth, for the General Resurrection (Rev 20:7).  

 So its much better to be saved by grace through faith now in this life, than after paying for your earthly sins in hell, for centuries.  

 
This is why it is written:

 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
  (Rev 7:9-11 NKJ)

There is a remnant of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ now, it does not follow none of them won't repent in hell, and be raised up into life. It will be impossible to count all the people the Lamb of God saved:

 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 (Rom 11:32-1 NKJ)


 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Rev 22:20 NKJ)


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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2011, 04:10:19 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2011, 04:49:33 PM »

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.

This contradicts that idea:

Matt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Quote
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This person dies for his sin, but his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:

Paul was not giving the church in Corinth an order to physically kill someone. He even writes back in 2 Cor that they should receive him back into fellowship.

Quote
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

This book of life has the names of God's chosen was written from the foundation of the world:

God, being outside of time, knows who will be saved from the foundation of the world.

Quote
...whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world... (Rev 17:8 NKJ)

All who rise up from hades, in the day of the LORD Jesus, whose names are in the book of life, are NOT cast into the lake of fire.

So their oil lamps were not burning when Christ returned, and they ended up in hades, waiting for the 1000 reign of Christ to end, and the resurrection of all who ever lived, begin.


There are many of God's Elect, who aren't ready when Christ returns, and were not ready when they died...these go to hell upon death, and in torments, they can reflect upon their sin and repent:

So you believe in predestination and universal salvation at the resurrection (john 5:29), which according to 1 Thess 4:16, will happen at the second coming.

Quote
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

They will give an accoun to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Quote
For example, the Pharisee who died was a child of Abraham, an Israelite, one of those Paul says won't be cast off, even though they must go through hell first:

 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)[/quote]

What about those Jews that Christ said were of their father the devil?

Quote
Although elect of God, he died a sinner, and God will by no means allow a sinner not pay for His sin...without the ransom propitiation of Christ, wickedness will be avenged:
 
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 

(Luk 16:24-26 KJV)


This Pharisee learned too late he wasn’t saved. That he was a child of God is clear from Abraham’s calling him that. Also, children of God would not feel such sympathy for a child of the devil, being they rejected God willfully, and did evil by choice. 

 
More proof this “rich man” was a repentant sinner in hell is evident by his concern for others, that they also not end up in hell with him (Lu 16:27ff). Only a child of God, when his cry for help was turned down, would think of others…a child of the devil would have begun cursing. 

 But those in hell, even if Christ were to return tomorrow, must wait till AFTER His thousand year reign on earth, for the General Resurrection (Rev 20:7). 

 So its much better to be saved by grace through faith now in this life, than after paying for your earthly sins in hell, for centuries. 

 
This is why it is written:

 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
  (Rev 7:9-11 NKJ)

There is a remnant of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ now, it does not follow none of them won't repent in hell, and be raised up into life. It will be impossible to count all the people the Lamb of God saved:

 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 (Rom 11:32-1 NKJ)


 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Rev 22:20 NKJ)

I'm not quite sure what to think of that.
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« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2011, 05:33:38 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?

http://www.videosurf.com/video/dr-quantum-double-slit-experiment-1126290
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« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2011, 05:45:19 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?
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« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2011, 08:50:08 PM »

The parable of the wedding feast is an excellent illustration of how election is made.

This contradicts that idea:

Matt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This person dies for his sin, but his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:

Paul was not giving the church in Corinth an order to physically kill someone. He even writes back in 2 Cor that they should receive him back into fellowship.


Because my reply is so long, I will answer your post in parts.

The parable telescopes Christ’s 2 advents, and the start of His millennial kingdom, its irrelevant to election of the Elect before the founding of the world:

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,  (Eph 1:4 NKJ)

Which happened before we existed and did good or bad:

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom 9:11 NKJ)

-----

Why are you misstating Paul’s words? Paul said hand him over to Satan and he’d destroy his flesh:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Its irrelevant whether the sinner repented before this happened, Paul says Satan would kill him, and that his spirit MAY be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul doesn’t know if this man is one of God’s Elect, albeit sinning horribly. If Elect, then Satan would kill him, and in hell he would repent, but would have to wait for the Day of the Lord Jesus, to be saved, with all the others coming out of hell:

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Only the non elect were cast into the lake of fire, the elect had repented of their sin, “lived according to God in the spirit”, as they paid for their sins in hell:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

These rejected Peter’s preaching, they were “dead.” But it was for this cause Peter preached to them:

They will pay for their sins, their insolence, but in hell, when its clear to them they screwed up, Peter’s preaching is recalled, and they live according to God in the spirit, and are saved in the “day of the Lord Jesus” when only the non elect are cast into the lake of fire.

Catholics (and I believe some Orthodox) have a similar idea called purgatory, however the apostolic view is different, its as I have given you.

All who believe in Christ now, in truth, are truly blessed, they are saved to the uttermost, they go immediately into paradise when they die---angels carry them up to third heaven, also known as Abraham’s bosom, to await the resurrection.

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25 NKJ)



All those God elected to saved, but who fail in this life to believe in Jesus, go to Hades to await the resurrection, in torments appropriate to their sin, each receiving the wrath they stored up for themselves while alive, albeit mitigated somewhat by God’s mercy.

Its not purgatory as some believe, its HADES, and none who believe in Jesus now, go there, we “depart” and are with Christ, no purgatory for believers.:

For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. (Phi 1:23 NKJ)

The wicked and vile go to a lower part of hell, hence Mat 22:13 “cast into the farthest darkness”, equivalent to the lowest hell where they wait to be raised up, and cast into the lake of fire.

Because this is a long reply, I will divide this into separate posts.

The big complaint about election is some wrongly believe one can live like the devil if they are “of the elect,” and when they die they step into paradise…

No, this is what happens to them:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

Then in torments they live according to God in the spirit, that their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus…

Taking God’s kindness for weakness was a terrible mistake.

But they are eventually saved, if elect because it is written only the non elect who are raised up from hell, are cast into the death from which there is no resurrection:

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:14-1 NKJ)

No return of Death, no return of hell, no return of those not written in the Lamb’s book of life.

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« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2011, 09:37:39 PM »

So you believe in predestination and universal salvation at the resurrection (john 5:29), which according to 1 Thess 4:16, will happen at the second coming.

No, the Devils children follow him into eternal punishment, no universal salvation.

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 NKJ)

If you read what I said carefully, you will note I identified those who would repent in hell, the elect who died without Christ in this life:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

Election doesn’t absolve from sin, Christ’s ransom sacrifice does. Anyone who dies without Christ, including the elect, go to hell to pay for their sins.

But the elect repent in hell, live according to God in the spirit, and so their spirits are saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, so that what is written, be true:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

God chose these before the founding of the world, He loves every one of them. His heart would be broken forever, if any of them were lost.

Its likely God would mourn the loss of one of His children, whom He personally foreknew, so badly...it would make the very idea of creation, untenable. God chose to create, enduring with much long suffering vessels of wrath, because He wanted His Elect, everyone of them, with Him forever.

Therefore the decree of election, of predestination unto salvation, is necessary, because FALLEN man is a real piece of work:

29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah." (Rom 9:29 NKJ)




In order that this fallen world---the Devil’s rebellion, the seductive power of sin, or the “bad luck” of being born in a country without Christ, not cause one of His children be lost, God predestines they will believe, they will be saved.

He loves them and cannot permit the Devil take them.

But by no means will God allow evil to go unpunished. If a man die without Christ’s propitiation, to Hell he will go, to pay for his sin, elect or not. Only believing in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, can save. Everyone who fails to believe in the name of Jesus, when they die, they go to hell, elect or not.


 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2011, 11:47:52 PM »

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

They will give an accoun to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Quote
For example, the Pharisee who died was a child of Abraham, an Israelite, one of those Paul says won't be cast off, even though they must go through hell first:

 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)



Although elect of God, he died a sinner, and God will by no means allow a sinner not pay for His sin...without the ransom propitiation of Christ, wickedness will be avenged:
 
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.  

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.  

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.  

(Luk 16:24-26 KJV)


This Pharisee learned too late he wasn’t saved. That he was a child of God is clear from Abraham’s calling him that. Also, children of God would not feel such sympathy for a child of the devil, being they rejected God willfully, and did evil by choice.  

 
More proof this “rich man” was a repentant sinner in hell is evident by his concern for others, that they also not end up in hell with him (Lu 16:27ff). Only a child of God, when his cry for help was turned down, would think of others…a child of the devil would have begun cursing.  

 But those in hell, even if Christ were to return tomorrow, must wait till AFTER His thousand year reign on earth, for the General Resurrection (Rev 20:7).  

 So its much better to be saved by grace through faith now in this life, than after paying for your earthly sins in hell, for centuries.  

 
This is why it is written:

 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
  (Rev 7:9-11 NKJ)

There is a remnant of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ now, it does not follow none of them won't repent in hell, and be raised up into life. It will be impossible to count all the people the Lamb of God saved:

 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 (Rom 11:32-1 NKJ)


 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Rev 22:20 NKJ)

Quote
I'm not quite sure what to think of that.

I make no apologies for following the scripture:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

For example:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:18-21 NKJ)

This text likens OUR answer of a good conscience, which now saves us, to what these spirits in prison did. They “formerly were disobedient”.

If Christ went to this prison to tell the “formerly disobedient” don’t bother trying, that they were dammed forever, then how is this a like figure to us?

Clearly Christ took the time and trouble to go to this prison, for His usual reasons for going to places:

"For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. (Mat 18:11 NKJ)


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« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2011, 11:56:04 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?
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« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2011, 01:34:02 AM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states? Huh
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« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2011, 07:59:44 AM »

"There are known unknowns, and then there are knowns that we don't know..."  - D. Rumsfeld (paraphrase)

 Shocked

How are we supposed to answer a question that doesn't make sense? "Do you know what someone else doesn't know?"

Huh?
 
 Huh Huh Huh



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« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2011, 12:17:59 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states? Huh

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.


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« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2011, 01:13:00 PM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.
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« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2011, 01:45:12 PM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

Holographic principle, gravity detector noise, super fluidity, the elusive Higgs boson, all collaborate Scripture is correct:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

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« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2011, 01:49:54 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states? Huh

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.
I have no point, and neither do you.
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« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2011, 01:51:09 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states? Huh

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.
I have no point, and neither do you.

I thought so.

But I have a point, you cannot claim omniscience for God, if you exclude quantum reality. It exists.

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« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2011, 01:51:32 PM »

self taught in scripture,
Yup, I guess that tells us all we really need to know about you.
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« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2011, 01:53:07 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states? Huh

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.
I have no point, and neither do you.

I thought so.

But I have a point, you cannot claim omniscience for God, if you exclude quantum reality. It exists.
And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

We can argue about this picayune point all we want, but in the end, what difference does it make?
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« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2011, 01:59:05 PM »

Can the infinite mind think of new things that His omniscience doesn't already know, as there is nothing impossible for God?

You cannot answer this, I can.

Of course He can, the moment He thinks of something new, His omniscience then knows all there is to know about it...

No violation of omniscience, because until God thought of it, it was nothing, and there is nothing to know about nothing.

Is God constrained by time?

Nope.

But the Dogmatic insistence true Omniscience requires God know EVERY POSSIBLE QUANTUM STATE is absurd.
Who said anything about quantum states? Huh

So you don't believe God knows everything that exists?
Just answer my question as it's worded. There's no reason to read your own prejudices into it.

Yes, I've studied quantum mechanics a bit, so I know about such things as the double-slit experiment and Schrödinger's Cat. So what?

Quantum states of existence would be known to God, they exist by His concurrence:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

So Omniscient God would know everything about everything that exists, including all their quantum states.

I have no problem with that at all. Given the incredible number of galaxies, God truly is infinite intelligence.

But to insist God must know every potential entity, and every potential quantum state they have, is a bit much, especially when it violates an elementary fact, there is nothing to know about nothing, its nothing.

I can't think of a more boring thing to do, think about nothing...or waste time thinking about things you would never want, desire, or do...in all their quantum states...its absurd to believe God would waste His time doing that.

Especially when the idea God must know every possible potential, even of those things He would never bother thinking about, creates a paradox which to me, proves the proposition logically flawed.

Can infinite Mind invent something His omniscience didn't already know, given nothing is impossible for God?

But who said anything about quantum states? Huh

Now that we know they exist, we must include them when we claim God is Omnipresent, unless you wish to abandon that doctrine?

So, I mentioned Quantum states.

So what is your big point...I've been waiting for the hammer...let it hit.
I have no point, and neither do you.

I thought so.

But I have a point, you cannot claim omniscience for God, if you exclude quantum reality. It exists.
And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

We can argue about this picayune point all we want, but in the end, what difference does it make?

That's the fundamental difference in our approach, I look to scripture for truth, no where else.

As for angels on a pin, given there were a legion (6000) of fallen angels in the demoniac, lots:

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. (Mar 5:9 KJV)

ps: This pre-figures the rush of the unsaved into the lake of fire:

 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
 14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
 (Mar 5:12-14 KJV)

After being raised up in contemptible resurrection bodies, all not written in the lambs book of life rush head long into the lake of fire, bound like the demons in these swine, trapped in bodies and driven against their will to hurl themselves in.

 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15-1 KJV)

"Cast" 906 ballw ballo {bal'-lo}
Meaning:  1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls 1a) to scatter, to throw, cast into 1b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result 1c) of fluids 1c1) to pour, pour into of rivers 1c2) to pour out 2) to put into, insert
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« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2011, 02:07:07 PM »

That's the fundamental difference in our approach, I look to scripture for truth, no where else.
But what is truth? Is truth a collection of propositions of what is believed to be true, propositions you can use to beat down your opponents in a debate? Or is truth a person? If the truth you're looking for in Scripture is a person, you will find Him in the Person of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you're searching the Scriptures for the wrong reason.
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« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2011, 02:16:40 PM »

That's the fundamental difference in our approach, I look to scripture for truth, no where else.
But what is truth? Is truth a collection of propositions of what is believed to be true, propositions you can use to beat down your opponents in a debate? Or is truth a person? If the truth you're looking for in Scripture is a person, you will find Him in the Person of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you're searching the Scriptures for the wrong reason.

Yes, Jesus is the truth, being the Word of God incarnate. But truth is also a statement, and given Christ dialogued correcting untruths, its inconsistent with any profession of following Him that we not do the same.

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1Pe 3:15 KJV)

Being Peter commands us to have "reasons for believing" at the ready, its worth studying scripture to know what they are.

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.

God inspired scripture "in order that" (hoti, vs. 17 "that") the man of God be fully equipped:
 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:16-17 KJV)


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« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2011, 02:50:02 PM »

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.
Of course they did, but they didn't create unusual doctrines and quote mine the Scriptures for whatever passages they could rip out of context to back them up, as you do here.
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« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2011, 03:35:44 PM »

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.
Of course they did, but they didn't create unusual doctrines and quote mine the Scriptures for whatever passages they could rip out of context to back them up, as you do here.

There you go again, claiming and not proving anything.

What passages were ripped out of context?

Prove I did that or take it back...

And the doctrine isn't unusual to 1st century Christianity, revealed in scripture. I can prove that, and have repeatedly.
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« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2011, 03:36:38 PM »

"There are known unknowns, and then there are knowns that we don't know..."  - D. Rumsfeld (paraphrase)

 Shocked

How are we supposed to answer a question that doesn't make sense? "Do you know what someone else doesn't know?"


These are interesting questions actually and fodder for a nerdy piece of schtickl of mine.
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« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2011, 03:42:30 PM »

Melodist has an enormous degree of patience and passionless dialog; Peter, a hold your feet to the furnace sorta temper.

Alfred Persson, even if what you were writing were the least bit coherent, the above combo is going to require you to up your game a bit.

Working on making posts at least not ugly to read would help.

I dunno know how Melodist and Peter make sense or can follow your style.

Could you in 200 words or less without weird line spacing or font changes or even Scriptural references state your thesis?

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« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2011, 04:00:16 PM »

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.
Of course they did, but they didn't create unusual doctrines and quote mine the Scriptures for whatever passages they could rip out of context to back them up, as you do here.

There you go again, claiming and not proving anything.
A number of other posters have already proven your doctrine wrong. I don't need to duplicate their work.

What passages were ripped out of context?
All of them. You stole the Scriptures from the Church that gave them to us.

Prove I did that or take it back...
Why should I? Because you say so?

And the doctrine isn't unusual to 1st century Christianity, revealed in scripture. I can prove that, and have repeatedly.
Not enough to convince us. I notice, for instance, that you never cite any of the Fathers whose methodology you claim to follow.
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« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2011, 07:45:20 PM »

The fathers clearly did precisely that. They argued, dialogued, profusely, citing the scriptures that backed them up.
Of course they did, but they didn't create unusual doctrines and quote mine the Scriptures for whatever passages they could rip out of context to back them up, as you do here.

There you go again, claiming and not proving anything.
A number of other posters have already proven your doctrine wrong. I don't need to duplicate their work.

What passages were ripped out of context?
All of them. You stole the Scriptures from the Church that gave them to us.

Prove I did that or take it back...
Why should I? Because you say so?

And the doctrine isn't unusual to 1st century Christianity, revealed in scripture. I can prove that, and have repeatedly.
Not enough to convince us. I notice, for instance, that you never cite any of the Fathers whose methodology you claim to follow.

Not proving your point makes it a pointless.

Citing scripture to prove one speaks correctly according to the scriptures, is not THEIR methodology as though they have a patent on it, its every Bible Christian's methodology, we all do it.

When it comes to controversial issues, regardless which father is cited, its likley another father can be found contradicting that point. But your criticism carries some weight, henceforth I will cite them where pratical. However, I consider the ante-Nicene fathers valuable witness to the beliefs of at some in the early church, everything after that time, not. After Nicea, it changed from primitive Orthodoxy, to something else.

So this precise statement I agree with, as for other things Tertullian said in this context, no:

Quote
"We have been predestined by God, before the world was, (to arise) in the extreme end of the times."
Tertullian Book II, IX.
 



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« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2011, 07:56:32 PM »

Melodist has an enormous degree of patience and passionless dialog; Peter, a hold your feet to the furnace sorta temper.

Alfred Persson, even if what you were writing were the least bit coherent, the above combo is going to require you to up your game a bit.

Working on making posts at least not ugly to read would help.

I dunno know how Melodist and Peter make sense or can follow your style.

Could you in 200 words or less without weird line spacing or font changes or even Scriptural references state your thesis?



Hmmm...How ugly or beautiful would you say the following is, regarding Dives, that is, the Pharisee or rich man in Hell, but it violates your 200 word rule:

Relevant to predestination, the elect, is what happened to Dives, the rich Pharisee who went to hell, could he be one of God's elect who must go to hell first, before he enters the Kingdom?:

Dives looks up and calls Abraham “Father” (v. 24), that is a relationship only the Elect have, not children of the Devil:
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
 40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
 41 "You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-- God." (Joh 8:39-41 NKJ)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)

Abraham would not speak tenderly---calling him “child” (v. 24, τέκνον) if he was a child of the Devil. Then its likely he would have said “you are no child of mine.”

Children of God do not feel sorry for the wicked receiving their just punishment:
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying,`Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
 7 "of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
 8 "you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
 (Deu 13:6-8 NKJ)


Yet they wanted to cross over into hell itself, to help this man:[/B]
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)


If we cannot infer this is a child of God from all this, we cannot infer anything from scripture, its all dark and mysterious.[/B]


Hades is not the final judgment, that occurs in the “day of the Lord Jesus” when all are raised up, after the thousand year reign of Christ:[/B]
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:11-12 NKJ)

The Lake of Fire would be redundant if Hades was the final resting place for the wicked, and then what becomes of those in hell when Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire?
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)

Clearly the Lake of Fire is the “place from which there is no return, the second death” and so all cast therein, including Death and Hell, will never return. That is the meaning of this symbol.

Scripture expressly says Elect rise up from hell into life, ONLY those not Elect are cast into the lake of fire::[/i]
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)



The Talmud proves the Pharisees understood Christ’s parable, literally:
"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."-Gen. R XLVIII. 8


Christ and His apostles were Jews, and Jesus never said they were totally wrong about hell:
52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

Compare:

"Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)

Paul could not say this if it weren’t true, his eschatology was generally the same as the Pharisees and they believed some in Hades would rise in the day of the resurrection, into life:


The Pharisees believed some would rise up from hell, in the Day of Judgment, into life, which agrees with Rev 20:15
"The locus classicus on the subject reads: 'The School of Shammai declared, There are three classes with respect to the Day of Judgment: the perfectly righteous, the completely wicked, and the average people. Those in the first class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for eternal life. Those in the second class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for Gehinnom; as it is said, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting contempt" (Dan. xii. 2). The third class will descend to Gehinnom and cry out (from the pains endured there) and then ascend; as it is said, "I will bring the third part through fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name and I will hear them" (Zech. xiii.9). Concerning them Hannah said, "The Lord killeth and maketh alive, He bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up" (1 Sam. ii. 6). The School of Hillel quoted, "He is plenteous in mercy" (Exod. xxxiv. 6); He inclines towards mercy; and concerning them said David, "I love the Lord, because He hath heard my voice and my supplications" (Ps. cxvi. I). The whole of that Psalm was composed by David about them: "I was brought low and He saved me" (ibid. 6). The sinners of Israel with their bodies and the sinners of the Gentiles with their bodies descend to Gehinnom and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months their bodies are destroyed, and their souls burnt and scattered by a wind under the soles of the feet of the righteous; as it is said, "Ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal. iv. 3). But the sectaries, informers, epicureans who denied the Torah* and denied the Resurrection, they who separated themselves from the ways of the community, they who set their dread in the land of the living,** and they who like Jeroboam the son of Nabat and his associates, sinned and caused the multitude to sin (cf. 1 Kings xiv. 16), will descend to Gehinnom and be judged there generations on generations; as it is said, "They shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Is. lxvi. 24). Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14) Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (1 Sam. ii.10). R. Isaac B. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot.' (R.H. 16b et seq.)  
 
We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse in Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for 'generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that 'Gehinnom will cease.' they will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse."  

-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, pp.377-378.


Clearly there are Elect who rise up from hell, into life, in the Day of the Lord Jesus.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

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« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2011, 08:14:52 PM »

Melodist has an enormous degree of patience and passionless dialog; Peter, a hold your feet to the furnace sorta temper.

Alfred Persson, even if what you were writing were the least bit coherent, the above combo is going to require you to up your game a bit.

Working on making posts at least not ugly to read would help.

I dunno know how Melodist and Peter make sense or can follow your style.

Could you in 200 words or less without weird line spacing or font changes or even Scriptural references state your thesis?



Hmmm...How ugly or beautiful would you say the following is, regarding Dives, that is, the Pharisee or rich man in Hell, but it violates your 200 word rule:

Relevant to predestination, the elect, is what happened to Dives, the rich Pharisee who went to hell, could he be one of God's elect who must go to hell first, before he enters the Kingdom?:

Dives looks up and calls Abraham “Father” (v. 24), that is a relationship only the Elect have, not children of the Devil:
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
 40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
 41 "You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father-- God." (Joh 8:39-41 NKJ)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)

Abraham would not speak tenderly---calling him “child” (v. 24, τέκνον) if he was a child of the Devil. Then its likely he would have said “you are no child of mine.”

Children of God do not feel sorry for the wicked receiving their just punishment:
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying,`Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
 7 "of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
 8 "you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
 (Deu 13:6-8 NKJ)


Yet they wanted to cross over into hell itself, to help this man:[/B]
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)


If we cannot infer this is a child of God from all this, we cannot infer anything from scripture, its all dark and mysterious.[/B]


Hades is not the final judgment, that occurs in the “day of the Lord Jesus” when all are raised up, after the thousand year reign of Christ:[/B]
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:11-12 NKJ)

The Lake of Fire would be redundant if Hades was the final resting place for the wicked, and then what becomes of those in hell when Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire?
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)

Clearly the Lake of Fire is the “place from which there is no return, the second death” and so all cast therein, including Death and Hell, will never return. That is the meaning of this symbol.

Scripture expressly says Elect rise up from hell into life, ONLY those not Elect are cast into the lake of fire::[/i]
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)



The Talmud proves the Pharisees understood Christ’s parable, literally:
"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."-Gen. R XLVIII. 8


Christ and His apostles were Jews, and Jesus never said they were totally wrong about hell:
52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

Compare:

"Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)

Paul could not say this if it weren’t true, his eschatology was generally the same as the Pharisees and they believed some in Hades would rise in the day of the resurrection, into life:


The Pharisees believed some would rise up from hell, in the Day of Judgment, into life, which agrees with Rev 20:15
"The locus classicus on the subject reads: 'The School of Shammai declared, There are three classes with respect to the Day of Judgment: the perfectly righteous, the completely wicked, and the average people. Those in the first class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for eternal life. Those in the second class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for Gehinnom; as it is said, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting contempt" (Dan. xii. 2). The third class will descend to Gehinnom and cry out (from the pains endured there) and then ascend; as it is said, "I will bring the third part through fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name and I will hear them" (Zech. xiii.9). Concerning them Hannah said, "The Lord killeth and maketh alive, He bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up" (1 Sam. ii. 6). The School of Hillel quoted, "He is plenteous in mercy" (Exod. xxxiv. 6); He inclines towards mercy; and concerning them said David, "I love the Lord, because He hath heard my voice and my supplications" (Ps. cxvi. I). The whole of that Psalm was composed by David about them: "I was brought low and He saved me" (ibid. 6). The sinners of Israel with their bodies and the sinners of the Gentiles with their bodies descend to Gehinnom and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months their bodies are destroyed, and their souls burnt and scattered by a wind under the soles of the feet of the righteous; as it is said, "Ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal. iv. 3). But the sectaries, informers, epicureans who denied the Torah* and denied the Resurrection, they who separated themselves from the ways of the community, they who set their dread in the land of the living,** and they who like Jeroboam the son of Nabat and his associates, sinned and caused the multitude to sin (cf. 1 Kings xiv. 16), will descend to Gehinnom and be judged there generations on generations; as it is said, "They shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Is. lxvi. 24). Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14) Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (1 Sam. ii.10). R. Isaac B. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot.' (R.H. 16b et seq.)  
 
We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse in Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for 'generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that 'Gehinnom will cease.' they will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse."  

-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, pp.377-378.


Clearly there are Elect who rise up from hell, into life, in the Day of the Lord Jesus.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)



Ooops, forgot to quote a Father:

Quote
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God's punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance thorn the death of a sinner;76 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.
Clement of Alexandria, Book VI, Chapter V


Quote
Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter L


Quote
Let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged. after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.
Lactantius, Book VII, Chapter XXI

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« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2011, 09:34:47 PM »

I still don't understand what the question is, or what he thinks he's proven.  Huh
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« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2011, 09:37:32 PM »

I still don't understand what the question is, or what he thinks he's proven.  Huh

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINATION! A triumph of brevity, clarity and perception.
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« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2011, 09:41:36 PM »

I still don't understand what the question is, or what he thinks he's proven.  Huh

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINATION! A triumph of clarity and perception.

+1 glad to see that I am not the only one confused by this whole thread. Also, I wonder if our dear Alfred realizes that the site he linked to said that Romans 8:28 was used by the Protestants to prove their view. I would hate for this whole thread to have been started over a minute misunderstanding  Grin
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« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2011, 09:59:10 PM »

I still don't understand what the question is, or what he thinks he's proven.  Huh

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINATION! A triumph of brevity, clarity and perception.

Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2011, 10:05:38 PM »

I still don't understand what the question is, or what he thinks he's proven.  Huh

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINATION! A triumph of brevity, clarity and perception.

Thank you.  Smiley

Hey, it's the least I can do.  Smiley
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« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2011, 10:18:39 PM »

Ooops, forgot to quote a Father:

Quote
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God's punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance thorn the death of a sinner;76 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.
Clement of Alexandria, Book VI, Chapter V


Quote
Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter L


Quote
Let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged. after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.
Lactantius, Book VII, Chapter XXI
Quoting the Fathers isn't enough to prove your point.
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« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2011, 12:37:18 AM »

Ooops, forgot to quote a Father:

Quote
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God's punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance thorn the death of a sinner;76 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.
Clement of Alexandria, Book VI, Chapter V


Quote
Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter L


Quote
Let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged. after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.
Lactantius, Book VII, Chapter XXI
Quoting the Fathers isn't enough to prove your point.

You know me, just trying to please you...

But point taken...this proves my point:

Rev 20:13-15 where its implied some raised up from HADES were written in the book of life:

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death– the lake of fire.
 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NET)

If anyone's name was not found = Some were found.

This conditional (ei tis) clearly has a relation to reality as in its parallel Rev 14:9:

9 A third angel followed the first two, declaring in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and takes the mark on his forehead or his hand,
 10 that person will also drink of the wine of God's anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb.
 11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:9-11 NET)

The conditional “if anyone” has a relationship with reality, its marking off those who accept the mark for specially severe punishment. Those who refuse the mark are not treated this way, they have obeyed the warning.

Again:

10 If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed by the sword, then by the sword he must be killed. This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the saints. (Rev 13:10 NET)

It could not be written “if anyone” if there weren’t some not meant for captivity, or to be killed by the sword. The implication has real connection to reality.



5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord (1Co 5:5 NET)

Paul isn’t sure if an Elect can be so wicked, hence “may be saved.” Clearly Paul saw he could be saved after physical death, albeit not in hell, in the “day of the Lord” which puts it in Rev 20:13-15 time frame.

Again:

do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

These rejected Peter’s preaching, and so are spiritually dead. But FOR THIS REASON the gospel was preached to them, that in hell they recall the preaching, and live according to God in the spirit.


Another text, deliverance is the theme:


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 (1Pe 3:18-21 NKJ)

The connections are the water and answer of a good conscience to God that saved both groups.

 The context begins with deliverance, ends with deliverance, so why should Christ’s reason for traveling change:

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luk 19:10 NET)

Its out of sync with the general theme of deliverance Christ preached doom to those “formerly disobedient.”

These spirits in prison are not fallen angels, they are the hybrid children of improper angel-human relations, hence “spirits” and not “souls.” This is implied by their segregation, being neither fallen angels or men. Christ extended salvation to include them hence the special mention.


It is written:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:25-29 KJV)

To say Jesus didn’t believe the dead can hear and repent, is absurd.

If the concept were a lie, it wouldn't become a metaphor either.

Catholics bollixed this up, and Protestants follow in their train, its time to reform all the way back to the apostles.


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« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2011, 12:47:40 AM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

Holographic principle, gravity detector noise, super fluidity, the elusive Higgs boson, all collaborate Scripture is correct:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house.  Attend community college.  Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.   Angry

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.   Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2011, 05:05:52 PM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

Holographic principle, gravity detector noise, super fluidity, the elusive Higgs boson, all collaborate Scripture is correct:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house.  Attend community college.  Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.   Angry

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.   Smiley

This from one who is 7500 posts and counting!
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« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2011, 05:07:50 PM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

Holographic principle, gravity detector noise, super fluidity, the elusive Higgs boson, all collaborate Scripture is correct:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house.  Attend community college.  Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.   Angry

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.   Smiley

This from one who is 7500 posts and counting!

But not all of his 7500 (and counting) are in the same thread.
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« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2011, 06:03:57 PM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

Holographic principle, gravity detector noise, super fluidity, the elusive Higgs boson, all collaborate Scripture is correct:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house.  Attend community college.  Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.   Angry

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.   Smiley

This from one who is 7500 posts and counting!
7500 posts don't mean much if he's been here 750 years.
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« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2011, 11:39:31 PM »

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics.  He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.   Roll Eyes

Quote
If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

Holographic principle, gravity detector noise, super fluidity, the elusive Higgs boson, all collaborate Scripture is correct:

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house.  Attend community college.  Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.   Angry

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.   Smiley

This from one who is 7500 posts and counting!

I had a 12 post per day average at one point.   Shocked  Now it's under 6.5 with a goal to reduce it to 6 and even less ... trying to enlighten folks like you have delayed that goal.   Undecided

I have been on this forum 38+ months and I usually have an idea when I've lost a thread.  Doesn't make me any less of an Orthodox Christian or less of a person.  Learning how to graciously disagree is an important life lesson one can learn.   Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2011, 02:13:10 PM »

Is this what you are saying?

God chose who to admit and not admit to the eternal kingdom from eternity, regardless of how we live, and these are called the elect.

Election is not based on foreknowledge.

All circumcised Jews are elect, and there are some but not all gentiles that are elect.

Among the elect, there are those whose sins for which Christ died as punishment, and those who must personally receive punishment for their sins.

Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The elect for whom Christ was punished will be raised up and live in this kingdom. The elect who must be punished will receive their punishment as disembodied spirits during this thousand year time. The non-elect will be punished as disembodied spirits during this time.

After a thousand years, Christ will raise everyone from the dead and begin His eternal kingdom. All the elect that are chosen by God will be in the eternal kingdom. All the non-elect will be cast into the lake of fire.

Please forgive and correct me if I am misrepresenting your beliefs here. As has been pointed out, I am discussing individual points, and I don't think I fully understand the bigger picture in the context of which those points need to be understood.
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« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2011, 09:42:10 AM »

Is this what you are saying?

God chose who to admit and not admit to the eternal kingdom from eternity, regardless of how we live, and these are called the elect.

Election is not based on foreknowledge.

All circumcised Jews are elect, and there are some but not all gentiles that are elect.

Among the elect, there are those whose sins for which Christ died as punishment, and those who must personally receive punishment for their sins.

Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The elect for whom Christ was punished will be raised up and live in this kingdom. The elect who must be punished will receive their punishment as disembodied spirits during this thousand year time. The non-elect will be punished as disembodied spirits during this time.

After a thousand years, Christ will raise everyone from the dead and begin His eternal kingdom. All the elect that are chosen by God will be in the eternal kingdom. All the non-elect will be cast into the lake of fire.

Please forgive and correct me if I am misrepresenting your beliefs here. As has been pointed out, I am discussing individual points, and I don't think I fully understand the bigger picture in the context of which those points need to be understood.


1)Why God chose isn’t stated, save its according to His good purpose and will:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

2)God had His own reasons for choosing that He doesn’t divulge to us, and those He chose, He predestined they would be saved, that Christ would have brothers.


Rom 8:28 has Election as an accomplished fact, foreknowing and predestining are two things done to them that prove “all things work together for their good”:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 (Rom 8:28-29 NKJ)

Verse 29 “FOR” is Paul’s proof the statement in verse 28 is correct.


3)You must believe IN THIS LIFE  to receive forgiveness for sins. If an Elect of God dies an unbeliever, which would include those who say they can live like the Devil, and still be saved, to hell they go upon death, for there is no other name whereby men can be saved:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

Its impossible to have faith in Christ once He arrives, or once you are in hell, then faith isn’t required…then Christ, God, Hell, are very real and faith in the saving sense isn’t possible.


BUT the Elect aren’t forever lost, Dives still sees the light of God in hell, that means he hasn’t passed through the gates of Death, where there is no light of God:

17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death? (Job 38:17 NKJ)

4)Never said all Jews are elect, that contradicts scripture:

6 For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
 (Rom 9:6-8 NKJ)


That the Israel of God will be saved, even if they must go through Hades first, is clear:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom 11:25-29 NKJ)


5)You got parts right. There is a thousand year kingdom to judge those still alive after the plagues and wars preceding Christ’s return.
Not all mankind dies, there are billions left alive and they must be judged:


So Christ binds Satan, and believers are raised up from the dead, and become Christ’s kings and priests in His Kingdom.

2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev 20:2-5 NKJ)

During this kingdom, if a person begins sinning, he dies and goes to Hades to await final judgment:

20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.
 (Isa 65:20-25 NKJ)

After the thousand years, Satan is released to tempt the world one final time, then Armageddon occurs, and then the final judgment in the Day of the Lord Jesus:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:7-15 NKJ)


Verse 15 identifies the non elect as those who are cast into the fire:

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NET)


Only the Elect enter God’s Eternal Kingdom:

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)


Anyone who dies an unbeliever goes to Hades, but the Elect go to an upper region where there is still God’s light, they did not pass into eternal separation from God. But all must wait for the Day of the Lord Jesus when Hades is emptied out, and cast into the Lake of fire, which is the second death---The death from which there is no resurrection, no return.

For example, this sinner would have been killed by the Devil, but saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, if he didn’t repent while alive:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Also those Peter preached to, who didn’t repent. In Hades they recall his preaching, and live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him
who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

Suppose this happened 1 minute before Christ’s return, then they have a thousand year wait in Hades suffering for their sins, just like Dives, until Christ’s millennial kingdom is completed:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison…

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:t, 11-13 NKJ)


6) Correct.

Hope that clarifies it.


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« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2011, 10:32:24 AM »

I wanna try this again just to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. I apologize if I do this another couple of times after you explain yourself over again, just want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience. I numbered my points this time to make it easier for you to confirm, clarify, or correct.

1. God chooses the elect according to His purpose and will.

2. God predestines and foreknows, but does not predestine according to his foreknowledge.

3. Among the elect there are both believers and unbelievers.

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believeing elect.

7. He will judge everyone alive, and send the non-elect and unbelieving elect to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

8. Any one of the believing elect who sins during this time is sent to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

9. After the thousand year reign over His kingdom, Christ will raise up all those in hades.

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

11. Everyone found in the book of life (all the elect) will enter into the eternal kingdom and the non-elect (those not found) will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.
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« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2011, 12:09:55 PM »

I wanna try this again just to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. I apologize if I do this another couple of times after you explain yourself over again, just want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience. I numbered my points this time to make it easier for you to confirm, clarify, or correct.


1. God chooses the elect according to His purpose and will.

So it is plainly stated by apostle Paul, predestined unto adoption, God made us accepted, not we ourselves:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:4-6 KJV)

Hence it is written:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10 KJV)

We are CREATED in Christ, we didn’t climb up and enter Him, nor did we create ourselves, its all a work of God, and “not of yourselves” vs.8

Created onto good works, hence those who sin like the unsaved, and think a profession of faith in Christ saved them, are wrong…all saved by God, do the Works God foreordained they do.


2. God predestines and foreknows, but does not predestine according to his foreknowledge.

God foreknew all before He created-then the elect were chosen, but that wasn’t the only time God foreknew.
 
God foreknew the Elect afterward, in a special way, in a way that proves all things work together for their good, this is separate from foreknowing the reprobate, because foreknowing them is not proof all things work together for the Elect’s good:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
 (Rom 8:28-31 KJV)

Its easy to see how predestining unto salvation proves all things work together for their good, but how does foreknowing them prove this? Because those God foreknows in this special way, He cannot cast off:

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom 11:2 KJV)

No doubt there are other benefits to this, I mention one already… this will serve to correct any “survivor’s guilt” among the elect…they will know God wasn’t partial, all were justly treated, none were saved against their will,  and all who willed to be saved, are.

3. Among the elect there are both believers and unbelievers.

If any thought God would trust the church to evangelize the world, they don’t God. And how about all born before Christ? And there is the unpleasant fact few of us would make it if God left our salvation up to us. So God knew all who would have been His had the Devil and Fall never existed, and all of them are predestined unto salvation…because that is what they would have chose, if their free will wasn’t diminished by the fall.

But you cannot say “so God saved me because I’m a good person,” because THAT is not why God chose. We don’t know why God chose, save its according to His good purpose and will.

Evidently, its NONE of our business why God saved us, He ain’t telling us.

But if anyone claims God saved people wrongly, then God can prove those He chose would have chosen Him, if they were given a fair chance. Sin got in their way, do God sent His son, to destroy the effects of the Devil:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 KJV)

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

Yes. We all, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God, and none of us will be lost because of the Devil’s work:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 (Rom 11:25-29 KJV)


5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believing elect.

Yes, so it is written:
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 KJV)

The righteous dead are in paradise (Lu 23:43; 2 Cor 12:2-4) which is why Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body when he went to Third heaven.

Third Heaven is where Christ’s 2nd advent will begin:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:14-1 KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:51-52 KJV)


7. He will judge everyone alive, and send the non-elect and unbelieving elect to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

Billions will be alive then. Those who accepted the Mark ect will be judged. Any unbelieving elect alive at His coming will become believers…

When I talk about unbelieving elect, I refer to the billions of people who never heard of Christ, or died before they were of age, and who aren’t of the remnant who believe now in this life. The fall really screwed us up, that’s why God saves us, and doesn’t leave it up to us.

No elect will be among those judged sinners during Christ’s millennial kingdom, it just won’t happen. All who do sin are “accursed”, waiting in the intermediate state (hades) to be cast into Eternal fire that can’t be quenched. They will be thrown head long, bound hand and foot, weeping and gnashing their teeth in pain and anger, trapped forever in contemptible resurrection bodies that repay them for using the vessel in God’s image for sin…now that body communicates the Holy Wrath of the living God. Hence Christ said:

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mar 9:43-48 KJV)

That all who die for their sin during the Millennial kingdom are the non elect accursed, is expressly stated:

but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. (Isa 65:20 KJV)


8. Any one of the believing elect who sins during this time is sent to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

No elect ALIVE at the return of Christ will remain unbelieving, they will repent.

9. After the thousand year reign over His kingdom, Christ will raise up all those in hades.
Yes.

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.


11. Everyone found in the book of life (all the elect) will enter into the eternal kingdom and the non-elect (those not found) will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

All of God’s children will be saved, all of the Devils children are lost.

Not one of God’s children will be lost, not one of the Devil’s children wanted to be saved, so they aren’t.

Their blood is on their own head.

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« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2011, 08:51:58 AM »

Thank you. Right now I just want confirmation and clarification, not proof. I think there will be plenty of opportunity for that later. Breaking this down into points will make it easier to discuss as this progresses.

1. God chooses the elect according to His purpose and will.

So it is plainly stated by apostle Paul, predestined unto adoption, God made us accepted, not we ourselves:

We are CREATED in Christ, we didn’t climb up and enter Him, nor did we create ourselves, its all a work of God, and “not of yourselves” vs.8

Created onto good works, hence those who sin like the unsaved, and think a profession of faith in Christ saved them, are wrong…all saved by God, do the Works God foreordained they do.

I think this makes clear the point you're trying to convey here. This will make for some interesting discussion.
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« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2011, 08:58:30 AM »

2. God predestines and foreknows, but does not predestine according to his foreknowledge.

God foreknew all before He created-then the elect were chosen, but that wasn’t the only time God foreknew.
 
God foreknew the Elect afterward, in a special way, in a way that proves all things work together for their good, this is separate from foreknowing the reprobate, because foreknowing them is not proof all things work together for the Elect’s good:

Its easy to see how predestining unto salvation proves all things work together for their good, but how does foreknowing them prove this? Because those God foreknows in this special way, He cannot cast off:

This will provide for some interesting conversation on how foreknowledge and predestination "work together".

Quote
No doubt there are other benefits to this, I mention one already… this will serve to correct any “survivor’s guilt” among the elect…they will know God wasn’t partial, all were justly treated, none were saved against their will,  and all who willed to be saved, are.

I think this will save some trouble later on.
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« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2011, 09:07:55 AM »

3. Among the elect there are both believers and unbelievers.

If any thought God would trust the church to evangelize the world, they don’t God.

This will provide for some very interesting conversation later on.

Quote
And there is the unpleasant fact few of us would make it if God left our salvation up to us. So God knew all who would have been His had the Devil and Fall never existed, and all of them are predestined unto salvation…because that is what they would have chose, if their free will wasn’t diminished by the fall.

These are some real big "if"s that might provide some interesting discussion later.

Quote
But you cannot say “so God saved me because I’m a good person,” because THAT is not why God chose. We don’t know why God chose, save its according to His good purpose and will.

Evidently, its NONE of our business why God saved us, He ain’t telling us.

This will be interesting to discuss later on.

Quote
But if anyone claims God saved people wrongly, then God can prove those He chose would have chosen Him, if they were given a fair chance. Sin got in their way, do God sent His son, to destroy the effects of the Devil:
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« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2011, 09:15:36 AM »

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

Yes. We all, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God, and none of us will be lost because of the Devil’s work:

Is inclusion in either covnenant a sign of election?
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« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2011, 09:17:41 AM »

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

There is disagreement on this. I'm startiong to think that all of these points, once clarified, are each worthy of their own thread.
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« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2011, 09:25:29 AM »

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believing elect.

Yes, so it is written:

The righteous dead are in paradise (Lu 23:43; 2 Cor 12:2-4) which is why Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body when he went to Third heaven.

Third Heaven is where Christ’s 2nd advent will begin:

I'm gonna be honest. I don't know how this will go in duscussion because this becomes a non-issue when we disagree on whether or not there will be a thousand year reign.
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« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2011, 09:27:03 AM »

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

There is disagreement on this. I'm startiong to think that all of these points, once clarified, are each worthy of their own thread.

I agree, but you must do it, not me. I'd be accused of spamming, or "flooding" (that was a new one:)

http://forum.bible.org/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=15608

Once I tried separate threads, and it was all moved into one.

So while I agree separate threads would allow focus, you must do it, not me.
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« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2011, 09:31:23 AM »

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believing elect.

Yes, so it is written:

The righteous dead are in paradise (Lu 23:43; 2 Cor 12:2-4) which is why Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body when he went to Third heaven.

Third Heaven is where Christ’s 2nd advent will begin:

I'm gonna be honest. I don't know how this will go in duscussion because this becomes a non-issue when we disagree on whether or not there will be a thousand year reign.

I disagree, the intermediate state (an Orthodox concept) is separate from Millenialism or "chiliasm".

And lots of interesting subjects there, Christ's descent into hell, who He preached to, whether it was to save them, or preach doom.

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« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2011, 09:32:03 AM »

7. He will judge everyone alive, and send the non-elect and unbelieving elect to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

Billions will be alive then. Those who accepted the Mark ect will be judged. Any unbelieving elect alive at His coming will become believers…

There will be no unbelieveing elect at this point. All the elect alive will believe.

Quote
When I talk about unbelieving elect, I refer to the billions of people who never heard of Christ, or died before they were of age, and who aren’t of the remnant who believe now in this life. The fall really screwed us up, that’s why God saves us, and doesn’t leave it up to us.

How you define the "unbelieveing elect" might provide an interesting discussion.

Quote
No elect will be among those judged sinners during Christ’s millennial kingdom, it just won’t happen. All who do sin are “accursed”, waiting in the intermediate state (hades) to be cast into Eternal fire that can’t be quenched. They will be thrown head long, bound hand and foot, weeping and gnashing their teeth in pain and anger, trapped forever in contemptible resurrection bodies that repay them for using the vessel in God’s image for sin…now that body communicates the Holy Wrath of the living God. Hence Christ said:

That all who die for their sin during the Millennial kingdom are the non elect accursed, is expressly stated:

So there will be non-elect alive during the thousand years?
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« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2011, 09:35:00 AM »

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

There is disagreement on this. I'm startiong to think that all of these points, once clarified, are each worthy of their own thread.

I agree, but you must do it, not me. I'd be accused of spamming, or "flooding" (that was a new one:)

Good discernment on your part. This would be a good place for a mod to jump in and tell me not to do so. I just don't want 20 different conversations on one thread, could be a bit confusing.
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« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2011, 09:36:24 AM »

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believing elect.

Yes, so it is written:

The righteous dead are in paradise (Lu 23:43; 2 Cor 12:2-4) which is why Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body when he went to Third heaven.

Third Heaven is where Christ’s 2nd advent will begin:

I'm gonna be honest. I don't know how this will go in duscussion because this becomes a non-issue when we disagree on whether or not there will be a thousand year reign.

I disagree, the intermediate state (an Orthodox concept) is separate from Millenialism or "chiliasm".

And lots of interesting subjects there, Christ's descent into hell, who He preached to, whether it was to save them, or preach doom.

I say disagreement because you believe this "intermediate state" to be during the millenial reign, thus linking the two together.
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« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2011, 09:39:07 AM »

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.
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« Reply #116 on: July 07, 2011, 09:55:58 AM »

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

Yes. We all, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God, and none of us will be lost because of the Devil’s work:

Is inclusion in either covnenant a sign of election?

We can infer from Paul's words that its impossible WE know beyond doubt whether one is Elect. If they live Christian lives we can assume it, but if they don't, we really don't know:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved (σωθῇ) in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Subjunctive, "may be saved", Paul isn't certain, he thinks it possible. No doubt the terrible sin this one did caused Paul to doubt he was an elect, but its in Hades one knows for sure.

Along this vein Peter says:

 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2Pe 1:10-11 KJV)

"Sure" 949 bebaios  
Meaning:  1) stable, fast, firm 2) metaph. sure, trusty - Strong's.

You make your calling and election "sure" in the eyes of observers (human & angelic) when you live consistent with the Christian profession.

Similar to this:
 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (Jam 2:22 KJV)

"Perfect" 5048 teleioo
Meaning:  1) to make perfect, complete -Strong's

Abraham's faith completed the good works God foreordained it do (Eph 2:10) and so "completed" the reason God implanted it into Abraham's heart, in a sense "perfecting its manifestation in our sphere."

Both Abraham and Rahab were "declared righteous" by their works, in an analogy to the implanted faith from God that can save which radiates acts of charity James was discussing;

A living faith does the good works God foreordained it do, while a dead faith has none and therefore the latter is not the faith from God that saves:

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jam 2:26-1 KJV)

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« Reply #117 on: July 07, 2011, 09:57:41 AM »

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

There is disagreement on this. I'm startiong to think that all of these points, once clarified, are each worthy of their own thread.

I agree, but you must do it, not me. I'd be accused of spamming, or "flooding" (that was a new one:)

Good discernment on your part. This would be a good place for a mod to jump in and tell me not to do so. I just don't want 20 different conversations on one thread, could be a bit confusing.

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.
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« Reply #118 on: July 07, 2011, 10:10:40 AM »

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.
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« Reply #119 on: July 07, 2011, 10:18:29 AM »

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.
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« Reply #120 on: July 07, 2011, 11:13:14 AM »

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...makes it easier for me to ignore.


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« Reply #121 on: July 07, 2011, 12:41:55 PM »

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

Alfred,

If you want to make a specific complaint about the moderator team's decision to consolidate your threads, please do so via private message to Fr. Chris and the moderator team. Public criticism of moderatorial actions is not permitted on this forum and will be met with formal warnings and post moderation if it continues.

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« Reply #122 on: July 08, 2011, 02:17:52 AM »

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

Alfred,

If you want to make a specific complaint about the moderator team's decision to consolidate your threads, please do so via private message to Fr. Chris and the moderator team. Public criticism of moderatorial actions is not permitted on this forum and will be met with formal warnings and post moderation if it continues.

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What, me complain? I don't even complain about second hand smoke from dcommini, so why start now?

I always feel like coughing when I read his posts, but I ain't complaining!
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« Reply #123 on: July 08, 2011, 09:06:39 AM »

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

Alfred,

If you want to make a specific complaint about the moderator team's decision to consolidate your threads, please do so via private message to Fr. Chris and the moderator team. Public criticism of moderatorial actions is not permitted on this forum and will be met with formal warnings and post moderation if it continues.

-PeterTheAleut
Moderator, Orthodox-Protestant Discussion


What, me complain? I don't even complain about second hand smoke from dcommini, so why start now?

I always feel like coughing when I read his posts, but I ain't complaining!

I'll admit, I chuckled at that.
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« Reply #124 on: July 09, 2011, 07:27:00 PM »

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.


Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

The "rich man" was one of God's elect who died unsaved and so was not "gathered to his people" when he died:

23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
(Luk 16:23-29 NKJ)
 
Context identifies “the rich man” (aka “Dives”) as a Pharisee, convinced he is an elect of God whose Father Abraham would save from suffering in hell, or rescue after the price for impurity is paid:
 
Quote
"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."- Genesis Rabbah XLVIII. 8
Quote

"'Passing through the valley of weeping' (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them..."-Erubin 19a
-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382

Compare:
 
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)
 
 
Jesus did not dispute Dives was elect of God, He has Abraham responding tenderly, identifying Dives as his offspring (teknon, "son"). To conclude otherwise is inconsistent with Christ's actions elswhere (cp John 8:39 Luke 3:8; cp Luke 19:9)
 
Also proving Dives is a child of God, is his Christian like concern for others when denied help----A child of the Devil would have responded with curses when denied help:
 
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
(Luk 16:27-28 NKJ)
 
More infallible proof Dives was NOT in the lower part of Hades where those not written in the lamb’s book of life are---he still sees the light of God, Abraham and the redeemed in paradise. The accursed in the lower hells are in total darkness, God’s light cannot be seen (2 Pet 2:4; Job 10:21f; Ps 88:6).
 
 
Therefore Jesus puts Dives in an intermediate state between Paradise (Luk 23:43; Third heaven 2 Cor. 12:2, 4; “God will bring with Him” 1 Th 4:14) and the lower hells of the dammed.[/i]
 
 
Torment in Hades is temporary because Hades itself will be emptied of all inhabitants, and cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing it will never return:
 
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)
 
[For the wicked, far worse torment will resume in the Lake of Fire, also known as a furnace of fire (Mat 13:42), via their contemptible resurrection bodies (Dan 12:2) which communicate such intense physical pain, they weep and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:44ff; ]
 
Rev 20:13-15 clearly implies Elect were raised up from HADES:
 
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death– the lake of fire.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person[/u] was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NET)
 
If anyone's name was not found = Some were found.[/i]
 
The conditional (ei tis) implies what is true in reality as seen in this parallel Rev 14:9:
 
9 A third angel followed the first two, declaring in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and takes the mark on his forehead or his hand,
10 that person will also drink of the wine of God's anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:9-11 NET)
 
The conditional “if anyone” has relationship with reality, if anyone worships and takes the mark” implies the existence of those who don’t worship and take the mark. Indeed, if these didn’t exist, then how would the conditional “if anyone” be possible?

Again:
 
10 If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed by the sword, then by the sword he must be killed. This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the saints. (Rev 13:10 NET)
 
The conditional “if anyone” could not be stated if all are meant for captivity, therefore there is relationship with reality, without the existence of those not meant for captivity, the conditional cannot be expressed.
 
 
Jesus promised the Dead would hear His voice and repent:
 
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:25-29 KJV)
 
To say Jesus didn’t believe the dead can hear and repent, is absurd.
 
 
The apostles clearly believed the dead could repent in Hades:
 
 
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)
 
Evidently Paul isn’t certain this sinner was an Elect of God, hence the subjunctive “may be saved”.
 
Also Peter believes in repentance after death:
 
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)
 
“For this reason” the Gospel was preached even to those who rejected it, that after dying for their sin, these recall the preaching and live according to God in the spirit.”[/b]
 
Those elect caught up in this world, who fail to make friends in eternal places for themselves by means of their unrighteous riches, who fail to realize the law and the prophets were until John, since then its Christ...go to hell upon physical death, because it is written:
 
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)
 
 
The Elect must repent and believe in Jesus in this life, if they want to avoid Hades. Otherwise, these must endure the penalty for their sin till the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no salvation in Hades as Jesus made clear (Luke 16:26).

In Hades there is only a chance to repent, and live according to God in the Spirit, God will judge who complied in the Day of the Lord Jesus when all in Hades are raised up. Coincidentally, only those found written in the lamb’s book of life, repented and so are raised up into life, all the rest are cast into the Lake which burns with fire and sulphur, their way back to God (2 Thess 1:9) destroyed forever:
 
 
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)
 
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.(Rev 21:27-1 NKJ)
 
[The non elect can repent and believe in Jesus and be saved (Mat 13:15 "their eyes they have closed"; Gen 4:7), but being the children of the Devil, they don't want to...their sin is on their own head. It does not follow from God’s hardening that He overpowered their free will---that they didn’t want it just so Exodus 7:11-14.]
 
 
Therefore the gospel is good news---All God elected to salvation will be saved, not one of them lost----even if they must go through Hades first, not one of them will be lost. Their number can’t be counted, even when we count only those who come out of the Great tribulation (Rev 7:14):[/color]
 
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)
 
While only a remnant believe now, by God's grace, it does not follow God would not destroy the works of the Devil, and predestine unto salvation, all He foreknew:
 
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jo 3:8 NKJ)
 
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29 NKJ)
 
Quote
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?(Rom 8:35 NKJ)
 
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Joh 10:29 NKJ)

Therefore Dives was one of God’s elect who failed to live according to the true profession, and had to endure Hades before he could be raised up and be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.
 
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:25-36 NKJ)
 
 
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
[/b] (Rev 3:20-22 KJV)


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« Reply #125 on: July 10, 2011, 02:25:44 PM »

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.


Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the standard according to which we will be judged. In this instance it would be foolish to use the rich man as an example of how one can refuse Lazarus and still be saved, even though the parable ends with him in torment and being told that he is stuck there.

I was thinking more along the lines of the sheep and the goats, the receiving in the flesh the things done in the flesh, and the context of reaping what you sow in relation to the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, not to mention those who were without the law having a law unto themsleves.
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« Reply #126 on: July 10, 2011, 04:04:53 PM »

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren't saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.


Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the standard according to which we will be judged. In this instance it would be foolish to use the rich man as an example of how one can refuse Lazarus and still be saved, even though the parable ends with him in torment and being told that he is stuck there.

I was thinking more along the lines of the sheep and the goats, the receiving in the flesh the things done in the flesh, and the context of reaping what you sow in relation to the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, not to mention those who were without the law having a law unto themsleves.

Those aren't as relevant as this:

It is written:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)
Compare

Christ's audience was dead unless they believed, and He goes on to say those "in the graves" will hear, and all who obey will come out to a resurrection of life.

That squares perfectly with this:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 NKJ)
Only those not found in the book of life, rise from Hades "to the resurrection of condemnation"

So these finally "hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live", and as Christ said, responded by doing good, i.e., they then "lived according to God in the spirit."

That is why Peter, when speaking of dead who refused to repent and believe his preaching, says it wasn't in vain he preached, because after they die, they will recall the preaching, and repent---live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

Repentance in Hades does happen, that is clear:[/I]

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:18-21 NKJ)

Peter denies baptism itself is the antitype, he identifies the "answer of a good conscience toward God" that is the "like-figure," and as our good conscience answer to believe Jesus resulted in our having eternal life, it follows these who "formerly were disobedient" would be saved by their answer to Jesus’ preaching, albeit after they rose from Hades, "in the Day of the Lord Jesus."

Otherwise there is no "antitype."[/I]

Compare the sinner who would die "that" (hina) his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" = Judgement Day, at the last resurrection:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life


There is no salvation in Hades itself, Christ was very clear, there is a gulf fixed between paradise (the saved) and Hades (the unsaved):
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)

They are saved when God Judges them “in the Day of the LORD Jesus.”



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« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2011, 06:08:36 PM »

Does anyone here honestly think they can change Alfred by continuing to engage him? So why are you all still trying?

What's it to you?

Why do you care?
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« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2011, 08:22:41 AM »

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.


Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the standard according to which we will be judged. In this instance it would be foolish to use the rich man as an example of how one can refuse Lazarus and still be saved, even though the parable ends with him in torment and being told that he is stuck there.

I was thinking more along the lines of the sheep and the goats, the receiving in the flesh the things done in the flesh, and the context of reaping what you sow in relation to the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, not to mention those who were without the law having a law unto themsleves.

The situation reported in both Peter, Jude and Revelation must be part of your overall doctrine of salvation:

2 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12 NKJ)

There are three books, one recording the deeds of the wicked, second recording the deeds of Elect who died without Christ, and third has the names of the Elect.

Had the non Elect repented in Hades, the ransom sacrifice of Christ would have covered their sins on Judgment Day, but being children of the Devil, they are like their father, they hate God without cause and simply could not bring themselves to “live according to God in the Spirit.” Evidently they spent their time in Hades cursing God and all with Him.

The Elect like Dives repented in Hades, lived according to God in the spirit, therefore having been put to death in the flesh, their spirit will be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus, on Judgment Day. Their misdeeds, as well as their repentance and “answer of a good conscience” in Hades, allow God apply the Ransom sacrifice of Christ and forgive their sins, on Judgment Day. They are saved by His grace, not their works, that is the meaning of “anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” Rev (20:15; 21:7)

The Book of Life written before the foundation of the world, lists the names of all those God foreknew and predestined would be conformed to the image of His Son and therefore, be saved:

whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
(Rev 13:8-9 NKJ)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
 (Rom 8:29-33 NKJ)

We don’t know why God selected the Elect (Rom 9:11), and not the non Elect, evidently its none of our business. We do know God didn’t show partiality (Rom 2:11), nor was His selection based upon what they did in this life (Rom 9:11; Eph 2:4-11), it was according to His good pleasure of His will (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:4-7). So the book of life lists those saved by God’s undeserved kindness, whom God chose would not be lost because of the Devil’s work, or the seductive power of sin:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

Hades documented God’s choices were just. All had equal opportunity to repent and live according to God in the spirit, but only the Elect did so and therefore have Christ as the propitiation for their sins.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

Like Cain, when given a choice, the children of the Devil are like their father, these choose evil willingly, their THEY have closed:

7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)


It does not follow from God’s hardening, that these weren’t willing participants, that without hardening, they would choose good:

13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
 14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go.
 (Exo 7:13-14 NKJ)

God’s hardening made their doing what God wanted done, for His own purpose and will, certain. But it does not follow these objected, rather they rejoiced in doing the evil they did, their free will was never overridden by God.



##

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison-(1 Pet 3:18-19 KJV)

These spirits in prison are not the angels God sent to counter the Nephilim (Satan's angels), these “sons of God” or angels were seduced by wicked mankind via their beautiful daughters:

NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:1-3 NKJ)

While these “sons of God” didn’t rebel like Satan and his angels, they left their proper habitation and corrupted the image of God in man, with the DNA of angels---therefore they are being reserved for special judgment and are forever lost, their chains everlasting:

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

Its likely their torment will end at some point, but their separation from God will be forever.

These hybrid souls are “spirits” and not “souls” because they are part ELOHIYM (Gen 6:2), analogous to regenerated human souls that have partaken Divine nature (2 Pet 1:4) and so are a “new creature” (2 Cor 5:17), aka “spirits” (Heb 12:23).

They are in prison segregated from both angels and man, being hybrid. No doubt they wondered  what was to become of them. That’s why Christ made the special trip to them. These evidently accepted as they are said to be “formerly disobedient” and its implied the “answer of a good conscience” was how they responded to Jesus’ preaching, as it is a like figure to the answer of a good conscience Noah and those with him gave, and us the remnant who chose Christ in this life, and so guaranteed to be among those of the first resurrection.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:20-21 NKJ)

This is why “sea” is mentioned separately from “death and Hades” in Rev 20:13, because the entrance to this prison is in the sea:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works (Rev 20:13 NKJ)
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« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2011, 08:30:06 AM »

We don’t know why God selected the Elect (Rom 9:11), and not the non Elect, evidently its none of our business. We do know God didn’t show partiality (Rom 2:11), nor was His selection based upon what they did in this life (Rom 9:11; Eph 2:4-11), it was according to His good pleasure of His will (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:4-7). So the book of life lists those saved by God’s undeserved kindness, whom God chose would not be lost because of the Devil’s work, or the seductive power of sin:
Your strange little god is so random isn't it? Why on earth would you worship such a loser?
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« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2011, 07:17:02 PM »

If you really really really really want to know about what can happen at Final Judgement, there is a revelation written in this book: http://www.magazinortodox.ro/viata-sfantului-vasile-cel-nou-vamile-vazduhului-si-infricosata-judecata-662

It is in Romanian and you can translate it in English. The English title can be: "The Life of Saint Basil The New"
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« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2011, 12:20:01 PM »

If you really really really really want to know about what can happen at Final Judgement, there is a revelation written in this book: http://www.magazinortodox.ro/viata-sfantului-vasile-cel-nou-vamile-vazduhului-si-infricosata-judecata-662

It is in Romanian and you can translate it in English. The English title can be: "The Life of Saint Basil The New"


If you want to excerpt the relevant text, I'll read it. But I'll reaffirm, Christ satisfies all my needs:


28 I tell you the truth, people will be forgiven for all sins, even all the blasphemies they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mar 3:28-29 NET)

“Eternal sin” = some sins not eternal

31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
 (Mat 12:31-32 NET)

“people will be forgiven for every sin” = forgiveness of sins possible after death
“forgiven…in the age to come” = “forgiveness possible in age to come”


Clearly my LORD Jesus Christ taught there is forgiveness of sin possible after death.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 12:21:18 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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