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Author Topic: Can Coptics go to heaven? EOC opinion  (Read 1819 times) Average Rating: 0
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loser
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« on: June 27, 2011, 11:01:58 PM »

I am Oriental Orthodox Christian thinking about joining the EOC because I am concerned that EOC beleives that Coptics cannot go to heaven. Is this true? I want to know what the most conservative, official opinion is. Use quotes from bishops/saints, if possible.


Please do not answer if you are not fasting.
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 11:14:14 PM »

Please do not answer if you are not fasting.
To answer your question requires that one proclaim their fasting before men and thus be a hypocrite.
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 11:17:21 PM »

Please do not answer if you are not fasting.
Wow, is this a first?
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 11:20:59 PM »

OK, this evening I didn't gorge myself with as many french fries as I normally do, so I'll count that as fasting.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe we are not going to heaven.  Are you going to join the Jehovah's Witnesses because of that?

Not that I want to put EO's in the same category as the JW's, but your reasoning here is a little baffling to me.
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 11:27:50 PM »

I don't believe the Orthodox agree with Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 11:29:31 PM »

OK, this evening I didn't gorge myself with as many french fries as I normally do, so I'll count that as fasting.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe we are not going to heaven.  Are you going to join the Jehovah's Witnesses because of that?

Not that I want to put EO's in the same category as the JW's, but your reasoning here is a little baffling to me.
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Seriously though, anyone claiming to be Orthodox Christian should spend their life thinking that everyone except their own self will be saved.
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 11:38:26 PM »

I am Oriental Orthodox Christian thinking about joining the EOC because I am concerned that EOC beleives that Coptics cannot go to heaven. Is this true? I want to know what the most conservative, official opinion is. Use quotes from bishops/saints, if possible.

If your reason for joining the Eastern Orthodox Church is because you think you can't be saved as an OO, I would advise you that perhaps you need to spend some time in thought and prayer. One should become Eastern Orthodox because they are serious about seeking the truth about God and themselves with all the struggles that will require, not because it is a better "ticket to Heaven."

As for how I fast, that will remain between God, myself, and my spiritual father.
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2011, 12:26:54 AM »

I am Oriental Orthodox Christian thinking about joining the EOC because I am concerned that EOC beleives that Coptics cannot go to heaven. Is this true? I want to know what the most conservative, official opinion is. Use quotes from bishops/saints, if possible.


Please do not answer if you are not fasting.
Whatever old quote one can find of an EO Saint or bishop condemning the OO's can be matched by an OO source condemning EO's, so you're pretty much in an equivocal evidence situation.

Nowadays it seems like both sides are cautiously optimistic* about the other's chances at Heaven, at least more so than either is about Roman Catholics and Protestants. I don't have quotes, it's just the general impression I get.

*Except for extremists on both sides, of course.
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2011, 06:33:57 AM »

I don't believe the Orthodox agree with Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
But I had heard somewhere that the EOC accepts the sacraments of the Catholic Church but does not accept the sacraments of the Oriental Church. It seems that the oriental church was considered similar to Arianism and Nestorianism. Is this true?
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 06:41:00 AM »

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But I had heard somewhere that the EOC accepts the sacraments of the Catholic Church

No, it does not. There is no intercommunion between the EOC and the RCC.
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2011, 07:05:39 AM »

But I had heard somewhere that the EOC accepts the sacraments of the Catholic Church but does not accept the sacraments of the Oriental Church. It seems that the oriental church was considered similar to Arianism and Nestorianism. Is this true?

No Orthodox who accepts Catholic sacraments reject OO ones. Many who reject Catholic sacraments accept OO ones. Even among those who insist on receiving Catholics by baptism, OO are received by Christmation or even just a profession of faith.
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 12:57:56 PM »

It seems that the oriental church was considered similar to Arianism and Nestorianism. Is this true?
Very few nowadays will say that OO's are monophysite. It's kind of hard to realistically maintain that though in light of the fact that the OO's anathematized Evtyches, founder of monophysitism.
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 02:13:51 PM »

It seems that the oriental church was considered similar to Arianism and Nestorianism. Is this true?
Very few nowadays will say that OO's are monophysite. It's kind of hard to realistically maintain that though in light of the fact that the OO's anathematized Evtyches, founder of monophysitism.

Yeah, I know very few EO who would call the OO monophysites these days. Those that do tend to be on the fringe. Some EO Fathers will say that, but they also did not have the dialogue that we have today, but even then not all of them held that opinion.

I have never known OOs to be accepted as EO by baptism. Sometimes by chrismation. An interesting reception I heard of once was OO being received by profession of faith and having the priest make the sign of the cross on their forehead with the closed chrismation bottle. Many EOs recognize OOs as Orthodox, and at the worst are perhaps schismatic...at the worst.

EDIT: That said, full eucharistic communion has not yet been restored. I could not yet commune with Copts, Armenians, Syriac or other OOs. But, I hope to see the day that I can. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 02:49:52 PM »

But I had heard somewhere that the EOC accepts the sacraments of the Catholic Church but does not accept the sacraments of the Oriental Church. It seems that the oriental church was considered similar to Arianism and Nestorianism. Is this true?

No Orthodox who accepts Catholic sacraments reject OO ones. Many who reject Catholic sacraments accept OO ones. Even among those who insist on receiving Catholics by baptism, OO are received by Christmation or even just a profession of faith.




Wait, are you saying that the EO bishops haven't established an official rule regarding how OO's are to be recieved? To my knowledge, it is an official decree in the OO and RC that converts from EO/RC/OO should not be baptized or chrismated again.

Anyway, I am really more interested in hearing the more anti-ecumenical views. What do the very conservative Mt Athos monks and 5th century bishops say? What did Pope Leo say?
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2011, 02:53:14 PM »

Wait, are you saying that the EO bishops haven't established an official rule regarding how OO's are to be recieved?

No.

Quote
To my knowledge, it is an official decree in the OO and RC that converts from EO/RC/OO should not be baptized or chrismated again.

Copts must never heard of it.
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2011, 03:40:57 PM »

I hope you know that OO and EOC are orthodoxy, period. For example, OO considered  EOC to be Dyophysite and EOC considered OO to be Monophysite. However, they BOTH reject dyophysite, according to Nestorianism and monophysite, according to Eutychianism.

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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2011, 03:53:15 PM »

It seems that the oriental church was considered similar to Arianism and Nestorianism. Is this true?
Very few nowadays will say that OO's are monophysite. It's kind of hard to realistically maintain that though in light of the fact that the OO's anathematized Evtyches, founder of monophysitism.

Yeah, I know very few EO who would call the OO monophysites these days. Those that do tend to be on the fringe. Some EO Fathers will say that, but they also did not have the dialogue that we have today, but even then not all of them held that opinion.

I have never known OOs to be accepted as EO by baptism. Sometimes by chrismation. An interesting reception I heard of once was OO being received by profession of faith and having the priest make the sign of the cross on their forehead with the closed chrismation bottle. Many EOs recognize OOs as Orthodox, and at the worst are perhaps schismatic...at the worst.

EDIT: That said, full eucharistic communion has not yet been restored. I could not yet commune with Copts, Armenians, Syriac or other OOs. But, I hope to see the day that I can. Smiley

That rosy picture is not at all universal. More traditional segments, in communion with the OCA btw, have been known to baptize, chrismate, and regard OOs as heretics.
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2011, 04:50:49 PM »

Just a few days ago, I read an article linked by someone in another thread about how OO's and RC's are received by EO's, and how it differs according to jurisdiction.

The article went into great detail, and if I recall correctly, documented that the oldest way is by profession of faith.  The Russians still do it that way, but the Greeks in recent times have been receiving OO's either by chrismation, or baptism, I can't recall which.

If someone remembers which article I'm thinking of, or the thread in which it was linked, I'd appreciate the reference.
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2011, 04:53:20 PM »


Why you worry about not going to heaven? Where is your Orthodox faith?

Sdn. Tigran

Good point.  As Orthodox Christians, we should love and worship God not out of a selfish desire to make it into heaven;  We should love Him and worship Him for higher reasons than that.
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2011, 05:12:48 PM »

That rosy picture is not at all universal. More traditional segments, in communion with the OCA btw, have been known to baptize, chrismate, and regard OOs as heretics.

I must second this.  For as friendly as our discussions are, and as seemingly similar as our faiths appear on this forum (and sometimes elsewhere), many EO's do not accept OO's as Orthodox.

Anyway, I am really more interested in hearing the more anti-ecumenical views. What do the very conservative Mt Athos monks and 5th century bishops say? What did Pope Leo say?

I have no quotes, but I can say that more traditional people within Eastern Orthodoxy (some with ties to Mt. Athos) have cautioned my rather accepting view of Oriental Orthodoxy.  In particular, they are quite concerned by the continued commemoration of people (OO saints) whom the Eastern Orthodox Church views as heretics. 

Of course, there is also a fairly standard opinion that the OO's do not have the fullness of the faith, having separated themselves and not accepted later councils and the continued Tradition.  This may seem technical or legalistic to some, but ask traditional EO's about the Holy Fire in Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit's refusal to light the candles of OO bishops, save through the EO bishops.

I'm not sure if this is helpful in anyway, but I thought it should be mentioned.
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2011, 05:56:54 PM »

That rosy picture is not at all universal. More traditional segments, in communion with the OCA btw, have been known to baptize, chrismate, and regard OOs as heretics.

I must second this.  For as friendly as our discussions are, and as seemingly similar as our faiths appear on this forum (and sometimes elsewhere), many EO's do not accept OO's as Orthodox.

Anyway, I am really more interested in hearing the more anti-ecumenical views. What do the very conservative Mt Athos monks and 5th century bishops say? What did Pope Leo say?

I have no quotes, but I can say that more traditional people within Eastern Orthodoxy (some with ties to Mt. Athos) have cautioned my rather accepting view of Oriental Orthodoxy.  In particular, they are quite concerned by the continued commemoration of people (OO saints) whom the Eastern Orthodox Church views as heretics. 

Which saints, and where is this done?
 
Quote
Of course, there is also a fairly standard opinion that the OO's do not have the fullness of the faith, having separated themselves and not accepted later councils and the continued Tradition.  This may seem technical or legalistic to some, but ask traditional EO's about the Holy Fire in Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit's refusal to light the candles of OO bishops, save through the EO bishops.

I'm not sure if this is helpful in anyway, but I thought it should be mentioned.

The Holy Fire in Jerusalem is a separate topic, and probably should be discussed in the private forum.  I and others have always put that story in the same category as the St. Euphemia legend, due to its lack of contemporary documentation.
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2011, 11:10:05 PM »

In particular, they are quite concerned by the continued commemoration of people (OO saints) whom the Eastern Orthodox Church views as heretics. 

Which saints, and where is this done?

I honestly can't recall.  I'll have to remember specifics.  Do you think this not the case?
I'm not stating that it is accurate but that it's an opinion expressed.
 
Quote
The Holy Fire in Jerusalem is a separate topic, and probably should be discussed in the private forum.  I and others have always put that story in the same category as the St. Euphemia legend, due to its lack of contemporary documentation.

Agreed that it's a separate topic, but I was just presenting a less ecumenist EO perspective, as requested.
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2011, 11:14:00 PM »

In particular, they are quite concerned by the continued commemoration of people (OO saints) whom the Eastern Orthodox Church views as heretics. 

Which saints, and where is this done?

I honestly can't recall.  I'll have to remember specifics.  Do you think this not the case?
I'm not stating that it is accurate but that it's an opinion expressed.

I guess it's possible, but I've just never heard of it before. 
 
Quote
Quote
The Holy Fire in Jerusalem is a separate topic, and probably should be discussed in the private forum.  I and others have always put that story in the same category as the St. Euphemia legend, due to its lack of contemporary documentation.

Agreed that it's a separate topic, but I was just presenting a less ecumenist EO perspective, as requested.

I understand.   Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2011, 11:14:28 PM »

Burt Reynolds is Charlie El-Barker in "All Copts go to Heaven."  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 08:13:34 AM »

Burt Reynolds is Charlie El-Barker in "All Copts go to Heaven."  Grin

LOL!
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 08:39:54 AM »

Of course, I think Copts can go to heaven.  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 12:21:40 PM »

I am Oriental Orthodox Christian thinking about joining the EOC because I am concerned that EOC beleives that Coptics cannot go to heaven. Is this true? I want to know what the most conservative, official opinion is. Use quotes from bishops/saints, if possible.


Please do not answer if you are not fasting.
im not even orthodox and i can tell you the "MOST CONSERVATIVE" opinion is you are a heretic (mt athos) however the official statement is that the two have "... always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christologicalfaith..." (agreement statement form 1990)

ALSO i dont have the quotes but some of the EO fathers admitted after much study and dialog that the EO and OO are the same faith... ill look for the quotes...
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 02:23:12 PM »

We do not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit. I once heard it said "We know where the Holy Spirit is (that is, the Orthodox Church). We do not know where He is not." The idea being that while we know that the Holy Spirit is in the Church, we have no idea where else He is working and we cannot be so presumptuous as to dictate. It doesn't matter if we're talking about OO, RC, Lutheran or anyone. God will have mercy on whom He wills.

So, to answer..."Can Coptics go to heaven?" Yep. It's not our place to say where ANYONE can or cannot go. That, alone, is God's judgement.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 04:03:07 PM »

Seriously though, anyone claiming to be Orthodox Christian should spend their life thinking that everyone except their own self will be saved.

Between statements like this and your .sig, the world just seems a little more sunny each day.

Thanks. //B=|
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2011, 04:22:43 AM »

I know of cases where the Greek old calendarist Synod in Resistance, who represent the more conservative strand of thinking, has accepted OO by confession of faith alone.
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