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Author Topic: Gender Differences (split from Prematrital sex is not a sin)  (Read 2201 times) Average Rating: 1
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Daedelus1138
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« on: June 20, 2011, 03:04:07 PM »

No, it means that a hypothetical priestess would destroy Christian anthropology. Christ is masculine relative to the Church, so on a masculine human can stand in His stead.  

   I had not considered this.  It still seems like an abuse of a metaphor that St. Paul uses in Ephesians.   Even talking about the Church as a collective whole existing apart from its members seems problematic.  If it exists, it exists conceptually only and is embodied in individual men and women.  Using this logic you use, how is a male priest not destroying the sacrament of marriage by beng married (mystically) to men in the Church as well as women?  

Quote
 Women can do many things, and the way I see it, women keep the Church actually functioning. That's how it is at my parish. The only thing women cannot be is sacramental ministers. I mean, please, a woman—the Theotokos—is the pinnacle of holiness and second in glory and honor only to the Trinity Himself. Anyone who argues that Orthodoxy tramples on women is silly.  

  Merely having a mother or woman that is veneratetd is not a sign one is not sexist.  Indeed, effectively using the Theotokos to minimize the voice of other women is itself a sign of that patriarchy.    Using Jesus of Nazareth's lfe and teachings to enshrine the "sanctity" of oppressive sex roles in society and even the family is a gross misunderstandng of his teachings; a significant focus in on human freedom and dignity, and part of that is to not be an oppressor to others, to listen to their lives wth understanding and not diminsh the voices of others.  You can't do this if you shut out other peoples perspectives in the name of your own way of doing things being sacrosanct and beyond questioning.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 03:09:47 PM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 03:31:27 PM »

 Merely having a mother or woman that is veneratetd is not a sign one is not sexist.  Indeed, effectively using the Theotokos to minimize the voice of other women is itself a sign of that patriarchy.

Are you a woman?  Do you think women's rights has a place in the Orthodox Church ... well, the Virgin Mary made a choice and exercised her right ... not because any Patriarchy was imposed on her.  She could have said no and we could continue to attend the synagogue on the Sabbath with gay and transgendered and bestial marriages celebrated under the huppah (Jewish wedding tent).   Roll Eyes

   Using Jesus of Nazareth's lfe and teachings to enshrine the "sanctity" of oppressive sex roles in society and even the family is a gross misunderstandng of his teachings

Whose interpretation of Jesus' teachings?  Betty Friedan's?

Quote
[T]he Old Testament patriarchs quite intentionally set themselves against the lunar psyche in women (and in men, who are half-female), in their desire to destroy the Goddess religion, and the Goddess within us all. Because of this, the menstruating womb became the Devil of patriarchy--"the only good woman is a pregnant woman," etc.--and the three-hundred- plus years of European Christian witch-hunting has been accurately called "9 million menstrual murders." Women were burned for practicing our natural moon-crafts of midwifery, hypnotism, healing, dowsing, herbal and drug use, dream study, and sexual pleasure.

If you want sexual pleasure to be your religion, no one is stopping you.   police

; a significant focus in on human freedom and dignity, and part of that is to not be an oppressor to others, to listen to their lives wth understanding and not diminsh the voices of others.  You can't do this if you shut out other peoples perspectives in the name of your own way of doing things being sacrosanct and beyond questioning.

You already have your religion in "women's rights", "gay rights" and "transgendered rights" - you stick to what you believe and we will stick to what we believe....
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 04:02:25 PM »

No, it means that a hypothetical priestess would destroy Christian anthropology. Christ is masculine relative to the Church, so on a masculine human can stand in His stead.  

   I had not considered this.  It still seems like an abuse of a metaphor that St. Paul uses in Ephesians.   Even talking about the Church as a collective whole existing apart from its members seems problematic.  If it exists, it exists conceptually only and is embodied in individual men and women.  Using this logic you use, how is a male priest not destroying the sacrament of marriage by beng married (mystically) to men in the Church as well as women?  

Quote
 Women can do many things, and the way I see it, women keep the Church actually functioning. That's how it is at my parish. The only thing women cannot be is sacramental ministers. I mean, please, a woman—the Theotokos—is the pinnacle of holiness and second in glory and honor only to the Trinity Himself. Anyone who argues that Orthodoxy tramples on women is silly.  

  Merely having a mother or woman that is veneratetd is not a sign one is not sexist.  Indeed, effectively using the Theotokos to minimize the voice of other women is itself a sign of that patriarchy.    Using Jesus of Nazareth's lfe and teachings to enshrine the "sanctity" of oppressive sex roles in society and even the family is a gross misunderstandng of his teachings;
That would be true if only you could show how an all-male priesthood enshrines "the 'sanctity' of oppressive sex roles".
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 06:45:18 PM »

I'm not sure how the Theotokos is supposed to 'minimize the voice of other women.'  Huh She was given one of the greatest honors in history- that of giving birth to and taking care of Our Lord Jesus. What's not good about that?

As for her not providing inspiration for all walks of life-- you should see the mechanic shop where I take my car. The lady who runs it is Orthodox, and there is a lovely little icon of the Theotokos and the Christ Child in the front office.
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 12:22:27 AM »

If anyone is discriminating its Daedelus. He's saying a woman can't be wholly a woman if they don't follow what his idea of a woman is. What, a woman can't be fulfilled without being a priest? Roles aren't the problem, its the fact that people always think they know better. There are things women can do that men can't. There are things that men can do that women can't. Just accept it. The roles aren't unequal they're just different. Is the brain better than the foot? Of course not. There can't be a full body without the foot. But something, someone has to be the foot. (FYI ladies I'm not saying you're necessarily the feet Smiley)
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 10:44:08 AM »

If anyone is discriminating its Daedelus. He's saying a woman can't be wholly a woman if they don't follow what his idea of a woman is. What, a woman can't be fulfilled without being a priest? Roles aren't the problem, its the fact that people always think they know better. There are things women can do that men can't. There are things that men can do that women can't. Just accept it. The roles aren't unequal they're just different. Is the brain better than the foot? Of course not. There can't be a full body without the foot. But something, someone has to be the foot. (FYI ladies I'm not saying you're necessarily the feet Smiley)

Of course, in this age, there are women behaving like men and men behaving like women, and if that's not far enough for some, there are men becoming women and women becoming men. And then there are those who would declare this normal, when it is, instead, the outgrowth of great mental instability.
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 01:30:00 PM »

If anyone is discriminating its Daedelus. He's saying a woman can't be wholly a woman if they don't follow what his idea of a woman is. What, a woman can't be fulfilled without being a priest? Roles aren't the problem, its the fact that people always think they know better. There are things women can do that men can't. There are things that men can do that women can't. Just accept it. The roles aren't unequal they're just different. Is the brain better than the foot? Of course not. There can't be a full body without the foot. But something, someone has to be the foot. (FYI ladies I'm not saying you're necessarily the feet Smiley)

I would rather be the feet than a part of the body that has been attributed to me (sometimes).  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 11:40:18 AM »

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Of course, in this age, there are women behaving like men and men behaving like women,

Ok i told myself to leave this thread alone but i so badly want to know..... what do you consider is "behaving like men"?? and what is "behaving like women"??
 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 11:55:15 AM »

Quote
Of course, in this age, there are women behaving like men and men behaving like women,

Ok i told myself to leave this thread alone but i so badly want to know..... what do you consider is "behaving like men"?? and what is "behaving like women"??
 Roll Eyes

No gay and transgendered pride parades in the UK?   Huh
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 11:55:48 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 12:09:10 PM »

Quote
Of course, in this age, there are women behaving like men and men behaving like women,

Ok i told myself to leave this thread alone but i so badly want to know..... what do you consider is "behaving like men"?? and what is "behaving like women"??
 Roll Eyes

No gay and transgendered pride parades in the UK?   Huh

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 12:12:22 PM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 12:18:50 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 12:38:40 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 01:09:31 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???

Its hard to put into words sometimes. Plus we've been so trained to walk on egg shells and not talk about things like this to not offend the PC people. Do you not think, Poppy, that there are attributes God gave to women specifically? Do you think that men and women are unique creations? Do you think a woman can be everything a man can be and vice versa?

Plus what exactly defines something as feminine changes somewhat with time and place. Things like grace and a nurturing instinct; that motherly love of which the Theotokos is a perfect example. She was strong and full of courage but in a quiet, feminine, loving way.
Men I think are more mechanical. We want to fix and solve and create. We don't want to love and nurture the hurt animal, we want to learn and fix it. Humans are also relational creatures, and how men and women operate in relationships is very different. Men were created to lead, its in their essence. Its not chance that society sees men as the head of the house, God created them for that role. And God created women for their role. It may be different but it is just as important and vital to our lives.
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2011, 02:47:34 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???

Its hard to put into words sometimes. Plus we've been so trained to walk on egg shells and not talk about things like this to not offend the PC people. Do you not think, Poppy, that there are attributes God gave to women specifically? Do you think that men and women are unique creations? Do you think a woman can be everything a man can be and vice versa?

Plus what exactly defines something as feminine changes somewhat with time and place. Things like grace and a nurturing instinct; that motherly love of which the Theotokos is a perfect example. She was strong and full of courage but in a quiet, feminine, loving way.
Men I think are more mechanical. We want to fix and solve and create. We don't want to love and nurture the hurt animal, we want to learn and fix it. Humans are also relational creatures, and how men and women operate in relationships is very different. Men were created to lead, its in their essence. Its not chance that society sees men as the head of the house, God created them for that role. And God created women for their role. It may be different but it is just as important and vital to our lives.
Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.

I'm not PC, i never will be, i like to say what i think and i don't give a stuff about PC. So don't worry i won't jump on your head. Nor am i feminist either. I don't like women getting anywhere in life at the expense of jumping on a blokes head. I don't respect that and i don't like it when women whine about the "see how bad it is for us" issue because half of them bring it on themselfs.

But, no i don't agree with you. I think behaviour is just that, behaviour it is something added to us as we grow depending on what culture we're born in and what environment we are raised in. Adam might have been quiet and gentle with appreciation for the moonlight and the stars lolOl and Eve might have been a tree climber with a big gob (like me lolOl) instructive and full of solutions to things that Adam just cried at.

I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2011, 02:57:03 PM »

Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.

I'm not PC, i never will be, i like to say what i think and i don't give a stuff about PC. So don't worry i won't jump on your head. Nor am i feminist either. I don't like women getting anywhere in life at the expense of jumping on a blokes head.

This is a family friendly forum.   police

I don't respect that and i don't like it when women whine about the "see how bad it is for us" issue because half of them bring it on themselfs.

Did you ask why you think most women bring it on themselves?  Did you see my post about sexual pleasure being a religion?  Bathsheba enjoyed sexual pleasure from King David (she cheated on her husband and King David had her husband killed in battle).  David took the brunt of the punishment for his sin; however, he repented and accepted the consequences.  So in Scripture, there is the example of being redeemed from the sins of adultery and murder all wrapped up in one.   Smiley

But, no i don't agree with you. I think behaviour is just that, behaviour it is something added to us as we grow depending on what culture we're born in and what environment we are raised in. Adam might have been quiet and gentle with appreciation for the moonlight and the stars lolOl and Eve might have been a tree climber with a big gob (like me lolOl) instructive and full of solutions to things that Adam just cried at.

I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.

That is your opinion.  You are entitled to it.  I will not argue with you on that point.   Wink
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 03:26:32 PM »

Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.

I'm not PC, i never will be, i like to say what i think and i don't give a stuff about PC. So don't worry i won't jump on your head. Nor am i feminist either. I don't like women getting anywhere in life at the expense of jumping on a blokes head.

This is a family friendly forum.   police

I don't respect that and i don't like it when women whine about the "see how bad it is for us" issue because half of them bring it on themselfs.

Did you ask why you think most women bring it on themselves?  Did you see my post about sexual pleasure being a religion?  Bathsheba enjoyed sexual pleasure from King David (she cheated on her husband and King David had her husband killed in battle).  David took the brunt of the punishment for his sin; however, he repented and accepted the consequences.  So in Scripture, there is the example of being redeemed from the sins of adultery and murder all wrapped up in one.   Smiley

But, no i don't agree with you. I think behaviour is just that, behaviour it is something added to us as we grow depending on what culture we're born in and what environment we are raised in. Adam might have been quiet and gentle with appreciation for the moonlight and the stars lolOl and Eve might have been a tree climber with a big gob (like me lolOl) instructive and full of solutions to things that Adam just cried at.

I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.

That is your opinion.  You are entitled to it.  I will not argue with you on that point.   Wink

I don't know what you think "jumping on a blokes head" meant but it just means putting a bloke down, ridiculing him for being a man like women do sometimes, "typical bloke!" type comments.

and your other question...

Women "bring it on themselves" sometimes like anyone else does when they provoke a situation. And no i'm not refering to anything sexual because physically, blokes are mostly stronger then women so, that's a seperate issue all together.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 03:28:13 PM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2011, 05:49:59 PM »

I don't know what you think "jumping on a blokes head" meant but it just means putting a bloke down, ridiculing him for being a man like women do sometimes, "typical bloke!" type comments.

Think about the connotation.  Sayings from other countries do not translate the same way in the USA (or elsewhere).  If you're going to use a British colloquialism, better provide an equivalent explanation.

and your other question...

Women "bring it on themselves" sometimes like anyone else does when they provoke a situation. And no i'm not refering to anything sexual because physically, blokes are mostly stronger then women so, that's a seperate issue all together.

I know bloke means man.   Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 06:01:50 PM »

I don't know what you think "jumping on a blokes head" meant but it just means putting a bloke down, ridiculing him for being a man like women do sometimes, "typical bloke!" type comments.

Think about the connotation.  Sayings from other countries do not translate the same way in the USA (or elsewhere).  If you're going to use a British colloquialism, better provide an equivalent explanation.

Oh i'm sorry, i didn't realise this was exclusively an American forum board.

Even if you didn't know the colloquialism and you read it literally, you would have been closer to it's meaning then if you had interpreted it through American smut coughHUMOURcough  Wink
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 06:02:17 PM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2011, 06:35:37 PM »

I don't know what you think "jumping on a blokes head" meant but it just means putting a bloke down, ridiculing him for being a man like women do sometimes, "typical bloke!" type comments.

Think about the connotation.  Sayings from other countries do not translate the same way in the USA (or elsewhere).  If you're going to use a British colloquialism, better provide an equivalent explanation.

Oh i'm sorry, i didn't realise this was exclusively an American forum board.
That's not what SolEX01 is saying. He's actually pointing out the fact that this is a multicultural forum with members from a number of different countries outside of Britain and the U.S. Therefore, some sensitivity to what's appropriate and not appropriate in various cultures is a good thing on this forum.

Even if you didn't know the colloquialism and you read it literally, you would have been closer to it's meaning then if you had interpreted it through American smut coughHUMOURcough  Wink
Maybe so... maybe so... The reader also does well to not automatically assume that an idiom foreign to his language is vulgar.
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2011, 06:56:15 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???

Its hard to put into words sometimes. Plus we've been so trained to walk on egg shells and not talk about things like this to not offend the PC people. Do you not think, Poppy, that there are attributes God gave to women specifically? Do you think that men and women are unique creations? Do you think a woman can be everything a man can be and vice versa?

Plus what exactly defines something as feminine changes somewhat with time and place. Things like grace and a nurturing instinct; that motherly love of which the Theotokos is a perfect example. She was strong and full of courage but in a quiet, feminine, loving way.
Men I think are more mechanical. We want to fix and solve and create. We don't want to love and nurture the hurt animal, we want to learn and fix it. Humans are also relational creatures, and how men and women operate in relationships is very different. Men were created to lead, its in their essence. Its not chance that society sees men as the head of the house, God created them for that role. And God created women for their role. It may be different but it is just as important and vital to our lives.
Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.

I'm not PC, i never will be, i like to say what i think and i don't give a stuff about PC. So don't worry i won't jump on your head. Nor am i feminist either. I don't like women getting anywhere in life at the expense of jumping on a blokes head. I don't respect that and i don't like it when women whine about the "see how bad it is for us" issue because half of them bring it on themselfs.

But, no i don't agree with you. I think behaviour is just that, behaviour it is something added to us as we grow depending on what culture we're born in and what environment we are raised in. Adam might have been quiet and gentle with appreciation for the moonlight and the stars lolOl and Eve might have been a tree climber with a big gob (like me lolOl) instructive and full of solutions to things that Adam just cried at.

I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.

No, no, no, I think I'd turn his ship into the Titanic!  Undecided

Well I appreciate people who don't get caught in the trap of PC. However, I do take issue with your stance, obviously right? I'm not sure how you can say, for example, that a woman doesn't have a natural affinity for child rearing. Our idea of "motherliness" can't be separated from females because that is something inherent to females. Not to say you're raging for a baby right now, maybe wait until you're in your 30's though Smiley

Plus there are always people who act as the exception to the rule. The world is a bell curve. Minimal amounts of people on the edges with most everyone mushed in the center. Just because you're a woman and not "extremely feminine" (or your friends aren't like that, since it seems most stick to their own kind) doesn't mean your womanhood doesn't affect your behavior. Do you think you'd be the same person completely if you were a dude? Is that something our minds can even evaluate? I think not.
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2011, 08:16:02 PM »

I don't like this "males must act masculine" and "females must act feminine" crap.

First of all, these are absolutely useless words because no-one can agree on their content. They also shift in meaning from culture to culture.

Secondly, push this way of thinking too far and suddenly you're doing away with the priest's vestments because they are too girly and telling women they don't need to run the race of askesis because running races is for the blokes.

I don't care how many of the holy fathers you can find who speak to men having to be manly and woman having to be womanly, I think it is pretty clear that Christ our True God accepts worship from the hands of the male florist or the female F1 driver without judgment or condemnation.

How many people are alienated from the church by this kind of conservatism-masquerading-as-Christianity? I am glad that in the Orthodox Church there is no pressure on me to be bombastic and extraverted and leader-y and to dominate a room by my presence. Rather, I can work out my salvation in fear and trembling and even quiet submission without being accused of not being man enough. There is no separate spirituality for the male and the female in Orthodoxy.

Having now got that off my chest, I will say that the only problem lies in making male behaviour compulsory for males and female behaviour compulsory for females, rather than just observing these behaviours as tendencies. We are all fashioned in the womb by the Author of Life, who is wonderous is all his works, whether those works conform to our tired stereotypes or not.
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 08:26:31 PM »


I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.

However, scientists have found masculine and feminine traits and behaviors that are mostly attributable to the respective genders. So, it is not gender stereotyping if one says that man and woman are dissimilar (I think that this is an established scientific fact) or if one points to a specific difference as long as there is evidence that backs up tht observation (or claim, if you like). What is gender stereotyping, IMO, is to maintain that men and women are the same or to say that all men and women exhibit completely different behaviors at all times.
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 08:42:22 PM »

I don't like this "males must act masculine" and "females must act feminine" crap.

First of all, these are absolutely useless words because no-one can agree on their content. They also shift in meaning from culture to culture.

Secondly, push this way of thinking too far and suddenly you're doing away with the priest's vestments because they are too girly and telling women they don't need to run the race of askesis because running races is for the blokes.

I don't care how many of the holy fathers you can find who speak to men having to be manly and woman having to be womanly, I think it is pretty clear that Christ our True God accepts worship from the hands of the male florist or the female F1 driver without judgment or condemnation.

How many people are alienated from the church by this kind of conservatism-masquerading-as-Christianity? I am glad that in the Orthodox Church there is no pressure on me to be bombastic and extraverted and leader-y and to dominate a room by my presence. Rather, I can work out my salvation in fear and trembling and even quiet submission without being accused of not being man enough. There is no separate spirituality for the male and the female in Orthodoxy.

Having now got that off my chest, I will say that the only problem lies in making male behaviour compulsory for males and female behaviour compulsory for females, rather than just observing these behaviours as tendencies. We are all fashioned in the womb by the Author of Life, who is wonderous is all his works, whether those works conform to our tired stereotypes or not.

Akimori, I understand very much where you're coming from brother. I'm not really a 'man's man' either. But I feel like you're adding a tone to what I said that wasn't there before. The type of masculinity you describe isn't what being a man is. That is what the world has created and branded as 'manly.' Look at David or Solomon. David loved music, played the harp, beat his chest with tears, and gently tended his flock of sheep. Solomon was a deep thinker who loved beauty and was by no means the accomplished warrior David was. At the same time, they both had an overpowering masculinity to them. There was no question they were MEN of God.

So I don't think gender roles are equal with what you're lamenting. Have sinful people taken the idea of gender roles and muddied them to where we find ourselves today? Yes. But that doesn't mean God didn't have a specific design for women and a specific design for men. Males must act masculine because the New Testament states such. We, though, must reconcile what masculine means in our head with what masculine means to God.
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 08:55:21 PM »

So I don't think gender roles are equal with what you're lamenting. Have sinful people taken the idea of gender roles and muddied them to where we find ourselves today? Yes. But that doesn't mean God didn't have a specific design for women and a specific design for men. Males must act masculine because the New Testament states such. We, though, must reconcile what masculine means in our head with what masculine means to God.

Thank you for this, especially the last line. I had a feeling we would be more on the same page than I initially apprehended.

I think my post was more of a rant addressed to no-one in particular, but glad you answered it!
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 08:58:14 PM »

So I don't think gender roles are equal with what you're lamenting. Have sinful people taken the idea of gender roles and muddied them to where we find ourselves today? Yes. But that doesn't mean God didn't have a specific design for women and a specific design for men. Males must act masculine because the New Testament states such. We, though, must reconcile what masculine means in our head with what masculine means to God.

Thank you for this, especially the last line. I had a feeling we would be more on the same page than I initially apprehended.

I think my post was more of a rant addressed to no-one in particular, but glad you answered it!

I should have supposed it wasn't aimed at me or was just a rant; you're always generous anyway.
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 10:25:29 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???

Its hard to put into words sometimes. Plus we've been so trained to walk on egg shells and not talk about things like this to not offend the PC people. Do you not think, Poppy, that there are attributes God gave to women specifically? Do you think that men and women are unique creations? Do you think a woman can be everything a man can be and vice versa?

Plus what exactly defines something as feminine changes somewhat with time and place. Things like grace and a nurturing instinct; that motherly love of which the Theotokos is a perfect example. She was strong and full of courage but in a quiet, feminine, loving way.
Men I think are more mechanical. We want to fix and solve and create. We don't want to love and nurture the hurt animal, we want to learn and fix it. Humans are also relational creatures, and how men and women operate in relationships is very different. Men were created to lead, its in their essence. Its not chance that society sees men as the head of the house, God created them for that role. And God created women for their role. It may be different but it is just as important and vital to our lives.
Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.
....

No, no, no, I think I'd turn his ship into the Titanic!  Undecided

I wonder what my ship looks like now?   Huh  Undecided  Huh
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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2011, 08:56:33 AM »

Even if you didn't know the colloquialism and you read it literally, you would have been closer to it's meaning then if you had interpreted it through American smut coughHUMOURcough  Wink
Maybe so... maybe so... The reader also does well to not automatically assume that an idiom foreign to his language is vulgar.

Babe if the phrase isn't "family friendly" then it has to be a bit iffy. I think my assumption was based on a relatively solid amount of probability. Given the sentence solEX01 posted.
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2011, 09:03:55 AM »

Quote
However, scientists have found masculine and feminine traits and behaviors that are mostly attributable to the respective genders.

Second Chance, you're going to have to name some papers or journal articles where you get that from "scientists have found....", because Abbie my friend has just finished her degree and her dissertation was on Feminism for which she had to do a tonne of research and there is none evidence that that is the case. (she got a first)

So i need to know the source of that statement.
Cheers Poppy
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2011, 09:30:34 AM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???

Its hard to put into words sometimes. Plus we've been so trained to walk on egg shells and not talk about things like this to not offend the PC people. Do you not think, Poppy, that there are attributes God gave to women specifically? Do you think that men and women are unique creations? Do you think a woman can be everything a man can be and vice versa?

Plus what exactly defines something as feminine changes somewhat with time and place. Things like grace and a nurturing instinct; that motherly love of which the Theotokos is a perfect example. She was strong and full of courage but in a quiet, feminine, loving way.
Men I think are more mechanical. We want to fix and solve and create. We don't want to love and nurture the hurt animal, we want to learn and fix it. Humans are also relational creatures, and how men and women operate in relationships is very different. Men were created to lead, its in their essence. Its not chance that society sees men as the head of the house, God created them for that role. And God created women for their role. It may be different but it is just as important and vital to our lives.
Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.

I'm not PC, i never will be, i like to say what i think and i don't give a stuff about PC. So don't worry i won't jump on your head. Nor am i feminist either. I don't like women getting anywhere in life at the expense of jumping on a blokes head. I don't respect that and i don't like it when women whine about the "see how bad it is for us" issue because half of them bring it on themselfs.

But, no i don't agree with you. I think behaviour is just that, behaviour it is something added to us as we grow depending on what culture we're born in and what environment we are raised in. Adam might have been quiet and gentle with appreciation for the moonlight and the stars lolOl and Eve might have been a tree climber with a big gob (like me lolOl) instructive and full of solutions to things that Adam just cried at.

I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.

(1) I'm not sure how you can say, for example, that a woman doesn't have a natural affinity for child rearing.

(2) Our idea of "motherliness" can't be separated from females because that is something inherent to females.

(3) Not to say you're raging for a baby right now, maybe wait until you're in your 30's though Smiley

(4) Plus there are always people who act as the exception to the rule.

(5) Just because you're a woman and not "extremely feminine" (or your friends aren't like that, since it seems most stick to their own kind) doesn't mean your womanhood doesn't affect your behavior.

(6) Do you think you'd be the same person completely if you were a dude?
Numbers i added


(1) I'm not sure how you can say, for example, that a womans affinity for child rearing isn't a direct result of social conditioning and learned behaviour. What is the first thing a girl is presented with as a toy in life, but a doll, and sometimes even a baby doll. Then they get to help mum with any younger kids?? Yeah, so tell me again how you can produce evidence that it's "natural"??

(2) I think the word you're avoiding like a bad smell searching for is, nurturing. A tonne of men have nurturing abilities and use them. Lot's of women will testify to that uh??

(3) I'll ask my priest when i'm ready. Given i'm a woman, i might get even that wrong haha...

(4) There is no rule.

(5) Haha.... aww the subtlty of the "You're must not be a proper woman then.... lolOl!!! Sure my womanhood affects my behaviour, when i'm on my "shut that woman away because she's unclean" week, i love nothing better than to slap the nearest man i can find!!! Probably because i'm not either married or pregnant yet lolOl...... too funny (explaination for the American males: British humour(humor) i was being sardonic)

(6) No i think if i was a "dude" i would be overexcitable, mincing across the floor and flinging my jazz hands about..... oh but wait, i do that now!!!! haha... No of course i wouldn't be the same person. My whole life would have been different because the environment would have been different.

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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2011, 10:25:17 AM »

Monty Python's The life of Brian - I want to be a woman

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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2011, 11:21:46 AM »

.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
If I were to tell a boy to "act like a man", I don't believe that "not behave like a female" would necessarily be part of it.

The most common application (in the US, anyway) of "acting like a man" means to endure disappointment, discomfort, or even pain in a stoic manner.

Considering what females endure during the birth process, they could probably teach us a thing or two.
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2011, 11:39:49 AM »

.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
If I were to tell a boy to "act like a man", I don't believe that "not behave like a female" would necessarily be part of it.

The most common application (in the US, anyway) of "acting like a man" means to endure disappointment, discomfort, or even pain in a stoic manner.

Considering what females endure during the birth process, they could probably teach us a thing or two.


You got a good point about it "not being like a female" but then, it wouldn't necessarily be "like a man" either. It might be more... act like a adult ......or...... act mature.... or .....act like you got some character.

Women might have to go through a tonne of physical pain through birth but their partner or husband has to be in a bad state of not being able to help and seeing them like it. That would be a killer for me if i was a bloke and i loved someone. Also, i always think because blokes are usually physically stronger, they get looked at like .... well if anything happens to threaten you and yours then it falls to YOU to sort it out. That's a heavy responsibility to have as well. I think both sexes have their thing and no one has it more bad in life than the other.

Thanks, that was a rli good point  Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2011, 01:10:02 PM »

Quote
However, scientists have found masculine and feminine traits and behaviors that are mostly attributable to the respective genders.

Second Chance, you're going to have to name some papers or journal articles where you get that from "scientists have found....", because Abbie my friend has just finished her degree and her dissertation was on Feminism for which she had to do a tonne of research and there is none evidence that that is the case. (she got a first)

So i need to know the source of that statement.
Cheers Poppy

The source of the statement was me; it was my conclusion from having been exposed to various such materials over the years. Most importantly, as a planner involved in the delivery of behavioral health services, I am constantly reminded by the professionals on the staff as well as my readings that there are indeed some real differences. You see, the problem here in the USA in the health delivery field is that the providers (doctors, nurses, counselors) had been treating everybody without regards to gender-based differences.

 I hope that This may be a more a matter of nuances and connotations than straight out differences. Nonetheless, here it goes.. As a starting point for your own research (I am bolding those sections that deal with behavior):

From Wikipedia: Both genes and hormones  affect the formation of human brains before birth, as well as the behavior of adult individuals. Several genes that code for differences between male and female brains have been identified. In the human brain, a difference between sexes was observed in the transcription of the PCDH11X/Y gene pair, a pair unique to Homo sapiens.[55]  It has been argued that the Y chromosome is primarily responsible for males being more susceptible to mental illnesses.
Reference Cited: Lopes, Alexandra M.; Ross, Norman; Close, James; Dagnall, Adam; Amorim, António; Crow, Timothy J. (2006). "Inactivation status of PCDH11X: sexual dimorphisms in gene expression levels in brain". Human Genetics 119 (3): 1–9. doi:10.1007/s00439-006-0134-0. PMID 16425037.

Hormones significantly affect human brain formation, as well as brain development at puberty. A 2004 review in Nature Reviews Neuroscience observed that "because it is easier to manipulate hormone levels than the expression of sex chromosome genes, the effects of hormones have been studied much more extensively, and are much better understood, than the direct actions in the brain of sex chromosome genes." It concluded that while "the differentiating effects of gonadal secretions seem to be dominant," the existing body of research "support the idea that sex differences in neural expression of X and Y genes significantly contribute to sex differences in brain functions and disease."[56]
Reference cited: Arnold, A. P. (2004). "Sex chromosomes and brain gender". Nature Rev. Neurosci 5 (9): 701–708. doi:10.1038/nrn1494. PMID 15322528.

    * Females have a more sensitive sense of smell than males, both in the differentiation of odors, and in the detection of slight or faint odors.[57]
    * There is also indication that females are better at discerning differences in colours, while males are more aware of, and capable of discerning movement.[citation needed]
    * Females have more pain receptors in the skin. That may contribute to the lower pain tolerance of women.[58]
Reference cited: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051025073319.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences#Genetic_and_hormonal_causes

Here is a rather long article that deals with gender differences in coping,

Gender differences in coping strategies are the ways in which men and women differ in managing psychological stress. These differences are important to psychology, sociology, and medicine  as well as every-day life and social interactions. In general, women tend to employ emotion-focused coping and the "tend-and-befriend" response to stress, whereas men tend to use problem-focused coping and the "fight-or-flight" response.

Background

Psychological stress depends on how people perceive external events, or stressors, rather than external events alone.[6] Men and women often tend to perceive stress-inducing situations differently, which results in gender differences in how males and females handle stressful situations. For instance, since societal standards encourage men to be more individualistic, men often use problem-focused coping mechanisms; however, women are often expected to be interpersonal, which explains why most women seek social and emotional support during stressful situations.

Research has found that women are indeed more likely to engage in emotion-focused coping strategies, which involves addressing internal emotional states as directly as possible. Although men also use emotion-focused strategies, they tend to use problem-focused coping strategies that attempt to solve the external problem more frequently. This type of coping involves incorporating cognitive and behavioral changes to modify or eradicate the stressor. It is important to note, however, that gender preferences for coping strategies are (in part) the result of social conditioning and the strictly genetic component of these differences is still debated.

Scientific inquiry into gender-specific coping mechanisms, however, has only existed since the 1970s. Questions researchers seek to answer include:

    * How do the stressors faced by men and women differ?
    * How do sex and gender affect coping strategy and effectiveness?
    * What are the sociological factors that contribute to masculine / feminine coping strategies?

Theories

The scientific study of gender specific coping mechanisms began in the 1970s, ultimately resulting in a few different theories that concern stress-management differences in gender. All research conducted prior to the 1970s focused on coping strategies employed by men and did not explore a large enough scope to apply to large groups of people. However, within ten years, women started participating in stress management studies, but the difference between genders in regard to coping strategy choices still remained unclear. One study in 1981 said: “There were gender differences in the sources of stressors, but gender differences in coping were relatively small after controlling for the source of stressors".[7] This initiated new interest into this particular area of research, so studies began to compare and contrast sources of stressors for both males and females. The results indicated that males often develop stress due to their careers; whereas, females often encounter stress due to issues in interpersonal relationships.[8]

The age at which stress occurs also has an impact. One study employed a psychological approach and found that females in emerging adulthood experienced more stress than their male counterparts, because of the strong psychological implications that appear in their lives.[9] The higher level of stress emerging adults experience may be due to new pressure that arise during this time frame, such as becoming more independent and choosing a career path.[9]

Hormones also play a part in stress management. Cortisol, a stress hormone, was found to be elevated in males during stressful situations. In females, however, cortisol levels were decreased in stressful situations, and instead, an increase in limbic activity was discovered. Many researchers believe that these results underlie the reasons why men administer a fight-or-flight reaction to stress; whereas, females have a tend-and-befriend reaction.[10] The “fight-or-flight” response activates the sympathetic nervous system in the form of increased focus levels, adrenaline, and epinephrine. However, the “tend-and-befriend” reaction refers to the tendency of women to protect their offspring and relatives. Although these two different reactions are generally associated with their respected genders, one should not assume that females cannot implement a “fight-or-flight” behavior or that males cannot implement a “tend-and-befriend” behavior.

From a social perspective, how parents choose to raise their children can also play a role in how males and females cope with stress differently. For instance, males are often encouraged to be independent, while females are expected to comply, which may influence each gender's choice of coping mechanism.[11]

Empirical studies

There have been a number of empirical studies done to support the theories described above. Here are a few noteworthy studies and meta-analyses:

Hastings et al. (1996). Teresa L. Hastings, Stephen J. Anderson, and Mary Lou Kelley studied the difference in coping behaviors of girls with conduct-disorder (CD) and boys with CD, and they also compared each gender with non-conduct-disorder (NCD) girls and NCD boys. Specifically with boys, they found that CD boys have ineffective methods of coping, which can lead to aggression and an inability to follow through with their goals. Boys with CD are more likely to deal with stress by directly confrontational aggression, and girls with CD are more likely to cope by using relational aggression. Overall, girls with CD had a higher level of daily stress than boys with CD; compared to these girls, NCD girls had a greater number of coping strategies. Hastings states that adaptive, or healthy, coping is problem-focused whereas maladaptive, or unhealthy, coping is emotion-focused. All individuals with CD were more prone to cope with stress on an emotion-focused level than NCD individuals. Finally, females who deal with CD experience more psychological distress than their male counterparts.[12]

Davis et al. (1999). A meta-analysis of 119 studies demonstrates that “stress is sometimes more frequent and usually more intense across the lifespan and across domains in females compared to males.” Davis also found that the stress differential was widest with regard to interpersonal stress, and suggested that because many women are taught to be more relationship-oriented than men, they may also be more at risk for internalizing negative social experiences.[8]

Washburn-Ormachea (2004). Washburn-Ormachea primarily focused on how eighth-grade and ninth-grade public junior high school students coped with peer-related stressful incidences. Overall, same-sex arguments and/or fights were reported as the most frequent and stressful situation encountered among the students. In addition, the study found that gender-role orientation, not gender, was the highest predictor of what type of coping strategy the students used. This may lead to an argument that social factors rather than genetic factors underlie preferences for certain coping mechanisms. In general, Feminine-typed boys and girls employed more emotion-focused coping strategies than did undifferentiated-typed or masculine-typed students. This is due to societal expectations placed on children at a young age. Females are expected to express their emotions, whereas, males are supposed to actively solve their problems and suppress emotions.[11] (Second Chance: This may be a study that your friend would like).

Wang et al. (2007). Wang and company discovered the increase in cortisol levels that relate to a higher chance of the fight-or-flight behavior in males. In females, they discovered that instead of increased cortisol levels, an increase in the activity of the limbic system was initiated. Females’ increased limbic activity gave proof to the tend-and-befriend theory for female coping strategies and says that females are more likely to alleviate stressful situations by nurturing and running to acceptable social groups.[10]

Brougham et al. (2009). College students completed an inventory examining their level of stress and the coping strategies they often choose after dealing with stressful situations. Different types of stressful events, such as family and/or academics, were examined as well as coping mechanisms, such as accommodation or self-help. Overall, the results demonstrated that women often deal with a larger amount of stress, and they tend to cope with stress using emotion-focused strategies. The emotion-focused coping mechanism dominated for both men and women; however, women did report greater use of this particular coping strategy on average.[9]

Applications

Results obtained in these research studies can help psychologists and therapists create specific stress-reduction programs that focus on the particular strategies each gender prefers to use when coping with stressful situations. Both men and women sometimes employ maladaptive mechanisms, such as avoidance and self-punishment, to handle daily hassles.[9] New programs should be designed, and perhaps incorporated into college and work orientations, in order to help redirect people’s coping strategies to more adaptive problem-focused mechanisms.

Washburn-Ormachea et al.[11] emphasize how imperative it is to take into account both gender and gender-role orientation when examining coping behaviors. Psychologists and therapists should be aware of how differences in gender-role orientation can vitally impact how one deals with stressful situations and the particular coping mechanisms one employs in order to implement better therapy programs.

Women tend to deal with a larger amount of stress, which increases their risk for developing depression during adolescence and later on in life.[11] Thus, one possible application of research is to help women employ better coping mechanisms in order to avoid this danger.

Stress is often a primary factor in models of illness and disease.[8] Differences in the prevalence of diseases by gender may stem from each gender’s choice of coping mechanisms and how effective those particular coping strategies are at alleviating high levels of stress. Therefore, understanding the connections between stress, coping, and gender can help to inform programs aimed at preventing stress-related illness.

Controversies

Controversy over whether males experience more stress than females, or vice versa still exists today. In Western culture, men are often expected to strive in "achievement, competency, and competition".[8] However when level of stress, work hours, and number of deadlines are compared both men and women have high correlations. Men are expected to work hard and pay the bills for their households as well as provide for their families. In contrast, females in Western culture often "have less access to power and control than do males," which can lead to more stress. They are not given equal opportunities or positions in jobs and often are not paid as well as men. Along with their careers outside of the home, females are still expected to maintain responsibility over their homes and nurture their children. Given all of these responsibilities, females find it hard to take care of their own personal needs, which men often do not deal with. Overall, research has determined that genders experience different kinds of stress: the greatest stressors for typical males come out of their careers, while most females are more likely to find stress in their interpersonal relationships.

Moving forward

Research has shown that people under extreme amounts of stress often exhibit cognitive deficits, illness, increased levels of depression and anxiety, lower self-esteem, bad health, and lack of sleep.[9] In particular, college students of both genders who employ problem-solving strategies have better health and increased self-esteem.[9] However, men and women often try to resolve situations using avoidant coping mechanisms, which can be maladaptive.

Therapists should consider both gender and gender-role orientation when examining coping behaviors, because differences in gender-role orientation may contribute to how one copes with stressful situations.[11] For example, one study has indicated that emotion-focused coping strategies in homosexual men may contribute to a wide range of negative health effects.[13] Further research on the relationships between gender, gender roles, coping strategies, and health hold promise for helping people manage stress effectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_coping#Empirical_studies
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2011, 03:53:14 PM »

Ok thanks  Smiley
I'm not done with this it's just that there's allot of info there and i need to take the sources out of wiki (which we're not allowed to use as credible at uni) and pull out the actual science data quotes and go read it at source.
Just letting you know in case you think i just left it and didn't respond properly.
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2011, 04:24:01 PM »

Shut the front door!!!!!!! Are you telling me that you're likening being feminine with gay blokes?Huh haha.... cheers, thanks for nothing lolOl

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.

So my question still stands then, serious answer this time.

I want specifics.... if you had to tell your kid to act like a man and not behave like a female.... what would you specifically tell him not to behave like??
Don't sit with your legs crossed??
Dont cry so much??  Roll Eyes
Don't walk in tiny steps??? lolOl

I'm serious....what IS female behaviour??

I'm not a woman; I have no idea.   Wink

haha... don't wig out on me now.... YOU made the statement lolOl

Tell me what is male behaviour then??

I have to read this.... going to be a treat huh???

Its hard to put into words sometimes. Plus we've been so trained to walk on egg shells and not talk about things like this to not offend the PC people. Do you not think, Poppy, that there are attributes God gave to women specifically? Do you think that men and women are unique creations? Do you think a woman can be everything a man can be and vice versa?

Plus what exactly defines something as feminine changes somewhat with time and place. Things like grace and a nurturing instinct; that motherly love of which the Theotokos is a perfect example. She was strong and full of courage but in a quiet, feminine, loving way.
Men I think are more mechanical. We want to fix and solve and create. We don't want to love and nurture the hurt animal, we want to learn and fix it. Humans are also relational creatures, and how men and women operate in relationships is very different. Men were created to lead, its in their essence. Its not chance that society sees men as the head of the house, God created them for that role. And God created women for their role. It may be different but it is just as important and vital to our lives.
Did solEX01 call you up?? CB help me i'm sinking!!! lolOl
I'm just teasing.

I'm not PC, i never will be, i like to say what i think and i don't give a stuff about PC. So don't worry i won't jump on your head. Nor am i feminist either. I don't like women getting anywhere in life at the expense of jumping on a blokes head. I don't respect that and i don't like it when women whine about the "see how bad it is for us" issue because half of them bring it on themselfs.

But, no i don't agree with you. I think behaviour is just that, behaviour it is something added to us as we grow depending on what culture we're born in and what environment we are raised in. Adam might have been quiet and gentle with appreciation for the moonlight and the stars lolOl and Eve might have been a tree climber with a big gob (like me lolOl) instructive and full of solutions to things that Adam just cried at.

I know i'm being silly a bit but i'm trying to say that no, i don't agree that anyone's behaviour is an attribute because of their sex. I think that's gender stereotyping and it sucks.

(1) I'm not sure how you can say, for example, that a woman doesn't have a natural affinity for child rearing.

(2) Our idea of "motherliness" can't be separated from females because that is something inherent to females.

(3) Not to say you're raging for a baby right now, maybe wait until you're in your 30's though Smiley

(4) Plus there are always people who act as the exception to the rule.

(5) Just because you're a woman and not "extremely feminine" (or your friends aren't like that, since it seems most stick to their own kind) doesn't mean your womanhood doesn't affect your behavior.

(6) Do you think you'd be the same person completely if you were a dude?
Numbers i added


(1) I'm not sure how you can say, for example, that a womans affinity for child rearing isn't a direct result of social conditioning and learned behaviour. What is the first thing a girl is presented with as a toy in life, but a doll, and sometimes even a baby doll. Then they get to help mum with any younger kids?? Yeah, so tell me again how you can produce evidence that it's "natural"??

(2) I think the word you're avoiding like a bad smell searching for is, nurturing. A tonne of men have nurturing abilities and use them. Lot's of women will testify to that uh??

(3) I'll ask my priest when i'm ready. Given i'm a woman, i might get even that wrong haha...

(4) There is no rule.

(5) Haha.... aww the subtlty of the "You're must not be a proper woman then.... lolOl!!! Sure my womanhood affects my behaviour, when i'm on my "shut that woman away because she's unclean" week, i love nothing better than to slap the nearest man i can find!!! Probably because i'm not either married or pregnant yet lolOl...... too funny (explaination for the American males: British humour(humor) i was being sardonic)

(6) No i think if i was a "dude" i would be overexcitable, mincing across the floor and flinging my jazz hands about..... oh but wait, i do that now!!!! haha... No of course i wouldn't be the same person. My whole life would have been different because the environment would have been different.



1. Is her ability to rear-children a result of social conditioning? No. She was created and given the correct body to do so. Thus I'm sure God worked that into the mental side of taking care of children not just the physical side. Plus I can just as easily look at the same situation and say they give them dolls because they want dolls not because they are "conditioned" for them.

2. Yes men can nurture. To say nurturing is an instinct of a woman doesn't mean that its off limits to men. But it certainly is more common among one group. Can a man be a mother though? No. He can only be a father. And no father can completely fill the role of a mother.

3. Haha I'll leave that to you two then Smiley

4. In your view Ma'am.

5. I don't understand your joke haha. But I didn't say or imply that, so pardon any offense I may have caused. I don't doubt your womanhood but there are people on the extremes of everything. A man acting like a woman is still a man, just on the extreme of the bell curve. (Again, please, do not mean to label you as such, I just use it to explain my point.)

6. I don't buy the I'm just a product of the world line. The outside world conditions us as much as we let it. Part of our theosis is reconciling who the world has helped us become to who we should be in God. Often the social structures that be think are insurmountable are products of a fallen world and not of God. Hard as it may be, he asks us to let go of our created reality and join him in the real thing.
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2011, 04:29:50 PM »

Let me add the following.

Look at animals. These creatures simply follow the instruction given to them by God. Unlike humans they don't try to be something they are not, nor do I think they have the ability to do so anyway. In most every species the male and female counterparts have specific roles. Such as one who hunts and gathers food and one who takes care of the offspring (or whatever the job is, it doesn't matter.) The female of the couple never looks at the male's responsibility and gets mad they can't do it or vice versa. They just act in their role. Why would we assume God didn't assign roles to all of his creations including people? As I've stated, I don't believe the pop culture roles heavily seen today are correct; they are hollow shells of an original. But that's not to say we must do away with roles completely. Only we must continue to repent and look to God for direction and reform. 
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2011, 04:41:46 PM »

Ok thanks  Smiley
I'm not done with this it's just that there's allot of info there and i need to take the sources out of wiki (which we're not allowed to use as credible at uni) and pull out the actual science data quotes and go read it at source.
Just letting you know in case you think i just left it and didn't respond properly.


I truly appreciate your considerate reply. You are a gentleman and a scholar. (or a lady and a scholar as the case may be).
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2011, 04:37:18 AM »

Ok thanks  Smiley
I'm not done with this it's just that there's allot of info there and i need to take the sources out of wiki (which we're not allowed to use as credible at uni) and pull out the actual science data quotes and go read it at source.
Just letting you know in case you think i just left it and didn't respond properly.


I truly appreciate your considerate reply. You are a gentleman and a scholar. (or a lady and a scholar as the case may be).

Lady  Grin

Ok so now i have had a chance to email my mate who is smarter than me go through all of your study citations, haha... I need to say this. Science will come up with a lot of "evidence" that apparently shows differences in males and females that go beyond the obvious physical ones but all of this "evidence" has been produced by a patriarchally dominated society with entrenched values of women being subordinate, less capable, weaker blah blah.... and two things becomes apparent. One is that a lot of the studies are done by men where it's impossible to switch off their values to be objective enough to come up with uncontaminated results and Two is that even if the study is done by a woman scientist, then she would have to get funding for her study from, male a dominated hierarchy where even on a subconscious level they are not going to fund a study that would go against their values and reason for getting a higher paycheck in some areas.

That's not exactly how she explained it to me but it's the best i can remember. Good point huh?? Yeah i thought so too  Grin i wish i had thought of it lolOl

So i think the "science" is totally debunked in this area  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2011, 06:56:17 AM »

Poppy, in my experience, no serious and honest person who understands science believes any of that.

I am sceptical of many of the claims of scientists and I tend towards thinking that men are more different from each other than they are from women (which is what I think is a good summary of what you're saying), but it would just be blatantly dishonest and ideologically-driven to deny the clear, scientific, empirical, substantiated and replicated evidence that men and women have some serious genetic differences which manifest both physically and psychologically. Perhaps such a stance was possible in the 60s, but no longer.

Without knowing her, I feel emboldened to say your friend is an ideologue. Forgive me for over-stepping if I have.

PS: please hold what I have said in this post against what I said earlier in the thread about spirituality and gender roles -- I am no male chauvenist, just an accepter of reality.
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2011, 09:49:01 AM »

...but all of this "evidence" has been produced by a patriarchally dominated society with entrenched values of women being subordinate, less capable, weaker blah blah.... and two things becomes apparent. One is that a lot of the studies are done by men where it's impossible to switch off their values to be objective enough to come up with uncontaminated results and Two is that even if the study is done by a woman scientist, then she would have to get funding for her study from, male a dominated hierarchy where even on a subconscious level they are not going to fund a study that would go against their values and reason for getting a higher paycheck in some areas.

....

So i think the "science" is totally debunked in this area  Wink

Actually, it would seem that the basis from the above response can be summarized as "men are bad and their science can't be trusted."

Which is a far cry from 'debunking' the science; it's more along the lines of just slinging a bunch of mud at the authors and declaring it contrary to a rather radical feminist worldview.

Have you heard of the case of David Reimer? (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/reimer/) His parents were told that a boy could be raised as a female and be perfectly well-adjusted without the social conditioning directing his behavior to be a male. His case is considered to have debunked the idea that sexual identity is socially determined.
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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2011, 12:30:14 PM »

Poppy, in my experience, no serious and honest person who understands science believes any of that.

I am sceptical of many of the claims of scientists and I tend towards thinking that men are more different from each other than they are from women (which is what I think is a good summary of what you're saying), but it would just be blatantly dishonest and ideologically-driven to deny the clear, scientific, empirical, substantiated and replicated evidence that men and women have some serious genetic differences which manifest both physically and psychologically. Perhaps such a stance was possible in the 60s, but no longer.

Without knowing her, I feel emboldened to say your friend is an ideologue. Forgive me for over-stepping if I have.

PS: please hold what I have said in this post against what I said earlier in the thread about spirituality and gender roles -- I am no male chauvenist, just an accepter of reality.

I'd have to agree with the ideologue label based just off what we've seen. I also mean no judgement on your friends that I don't know, but you did ask for citation and scientific study and then say studies are useless because of some bias? I'm sure you can see the holes in your friend's thought.
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2011, 12:37:02 PM »

haha..... yeah i am sunk huh  laugh

No but i have one more point to make.... its crackin!!!! Just because i can't articulate what my point exaclty is, it doesn't mean it's not true!!!!

and if that doesn't work then i use my old reliable....

W/EVA!!!

 Grin
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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2011, 12:56:24 PM »

haha..... yeah i am sunk huh  laugh

No but i have one more point to make.... its crackin!!!! Just because i can't articulate what my point exaclty is, it doesn't mean it's not true!!!!

and if that doesn't work then i use my old reliable....

W/EVA!!!

 Grin

Admitting it is the first step  Tongue  Hahaha
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« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2011, 07:02:04 PM »

Ok thanks  Smiley
I'm not done with this it's just that there's allot of info there and i need to take the sources out of wiki (which we're not allowed to use as credible at uni) and pull out the actual science data quotes and go read it at source.
Just letting you know in case you think i just left it and didn't respond properly.


I truly appreciate your considerate reply. You are a gentleman and a scholar. (or a lady and a scholar as the case may be).

Lady  Grin

Ok so now i have had a chance to email my mate who is smarter than me go through all of your study citations, haha... I need to say this. Science will come up with a lot of "evidence" that apparently shows differences in males and females that go beyond the obvious physical ones but all of this "evidence" has been produced by a patriarchally dominated society with entrenched values of women being subordinate, less capable, weaker blah blah.... and two things becomes apparent. One is that a lot of the studies are done by men where it's impossible to switch off their values to be objective enough to come up with uncontaminated results and Two is that even if the study is done by a woman scientist, then she would have to get funding for her study from, male a dominated hierarchy where even on a subconscious level they are not going to fund a study that would go against their values and reason for getting a higher paycheck in some areas.

That's not exactly how she explained it to me but it's the best i can remember. Good point huh?? Yeah i thought so too  Grin i wish i had thought of it lolOl

So i think the "science" is totally debunked in this area  Wink

Sounds like your friend has been brainwashed and you are going along (because of the friendship?). There is indeed something to be said for loyalty to your friends, particularly since this topic is not that important anyway in the grant scheme of things.
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« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2011, 07:31:15 PM »

"Even 'science' proves differences between men and women, but the problem is half the world is men, and some how, some way, they contaminated the study against me" The solution.. Kill all men!  Grin
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« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2011, 07:39:19 PM »

Ok thanks  Smiley
I'm not done with this it's just that there's allot of info there and i need to take the sources out of wiki (which we're not allowed to use as credible at uni) and pull out the actual science data quotes and go read it at source.
Just letting you know in case you think i just left it and didn't respond properly.


I truly appreciate your considerate reply. You are a gentleman and a scholar. (or a lady and a scholar as the case may be).

Lady  Grin

Ok so now i have had a chance to email my mate who is smarter than me go through all of your study citations, haha... I need to say this. Science will come up with a lot of "evidence" that apparently shows differences in males and females that go beyond the obvious physical ones but all of this "evidence" has been produced by a patriarchally dominated society with entrenched values of women being subordinate, less capable, weaker blah blah.... and two things becomes apparent. One is that a lot of the studies are done by men where it's impossible to switch off their values to be objective enough to come up with uncontaminated results and Two is that even if the study is done by a woman scientist, then she would have to get funding for her study from, male a dominated hierarchy where even on a subconscious level they are not going to fund a study that would go against their values and reason for getting a higher paycheck in some areas.

That's not exactly how she explained it to me but it's the best i can remember. Good point huh?? Yeah i thought so too  Grin i wish i had thought of it lolOl

So i think the "science" is totally debunked in this area  Wink

Sounds like your friend has been brainwashed and you are going along (because of the friendship?). There is indeed something to be said for loyalty to your friends, particularly since this topic is not that important anyway in the grant scheme of things.
No way is she brainwashed shes at uni thats a place where you free think not where you get brainwashed. I'd expect someone to say that more about religion. And i don't go along with anyone, it's just that i have heard her talk about this stuff so much when we would all go out that i know she has some strong points. Its just that i didn't do a academic course like she did so, im not up to speed on all her studies. She reeled off a tonne of different stuff when i text her about the links between behaviour and gender which unless i recorded i would never be able to put across. Like i said, just because i don't have her knowledge it doesn't mean that you are right, it just means it's still a open ended discussion. Maybe i will get her to sign up here as well!!!

haha.... kill all men?? Nah they are usefull  Wink
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« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2011, 07:45:05 PM »

No way is she brainwashed shes at uni thats a place where you free think not where you get brainwashed.

I wish that were a true statement.
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« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2011, 07:58:40 PM »

No way is she brainwashed shes at uni thats a place where you free think not where you get brainwashed.

I wish that were a true statement.
well it is in England  Wink
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« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2011, 10:20:51 PM »

 Merely having a mother or woman that is veneratetd is not a sign one is not sexist.  Indeed, effectively using the Theotokos to minimize the voice of other women is itself a sign of that patriarchy.

Are you a woman?  Do you think women's rights has a place in the Orthodox Church ... well, the Virgin Mary made a choice and exercised her right ... not because any Patriarchy was imposed on her.  She could have said no and we could continue to attend the synagogue on the Sabbath with gay and transgendered and bestial marriages celebrated under the huppah (Jewish wedding tent).   Roll Eyes

   Using Jesus of Nazareth's lfe and teachings to enshrine the "sanctity" of oppressive sex roles in society and even the family is a gross misunderstandng of his teachings

Whose interpretation of Jesus' teachings?  Betty Friedan's?

Quote
[T]he Old Testament patriarchs quite intentionally set themselves against the lunar psyche in women (and in men, who are half-female), in their desire to destroy the Goddess religion, and the Goddess within us all. Because of this, the menstruating womb became the Devil of patriarchy--"the only good woman is a pregnant woman," etc.--and the three-hundred- plus years of European Christian witch-hunting has been accurately called "9 million menstrual murders." Women were burned for practicing our natural moon-crafts of midwifery, hypnotism, healing, dowsing, herbal and drug use, dream study, and sexual pleasure.

If you want sexual pleasure to be your religion, no one is stopping you.   police

; a significant focus in on human freedom and dignity, and part of that is to not be an oppressor to others, to listen to their lives wth understanding and not diminsh the voices of others.  You can't do this if you shut out other peoples perspectives in the name of your own way of doing things being sacrosanct and beyond questioning.

You already have your religion in "women's rights", "gay rights" and "transgendered rights" - you stick to what you believe and we will stick to what we believe....

Agreed.  I think of Christ telling the Theotokos "Woman what does this concern you..."  She followed up by telling the apostles "Do whatever he tells you".
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« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2011, 09:41:34 AM »

No way is she brainwashed shes at uni thats a place where you free think not where you get brainwashed.

I wish that were a true statement.
well it is in England  Wink

Really?

Then has she heard of the case of David Reimer? (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/reimer/) His parents were told that a boy could be raised as a female and be perfectly well-adjusted without the social conditioning directing his behavior to be a male. His case is considered to have debunked the idea that sexual identity is socially determined.
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« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2011, 10:11:54 AM »

The original statement i challenged boredmeeting was that certan "trait" and "behaviours" were pacifically manly or womanly. Gender is different to sex.

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

That's what i was challenging in second chances original statement. IE: what is "masculine" behaviour and what is "feminine" behaviour and the two words i quoted in my first sentence are the two words she used in her statement.

It's ok, Abbi says ppl often get these mixed up  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2011, 11:52:46 AM »

Codswallop.
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« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2011, 12:08:25 PM »

No way is she brainwashed shes at uni thats a place where you free think not where you get brainwashed.

I wish that were a true statement.

Yeah, I loled at that line. I thought she was being sarcastic at first.
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« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2011, 12:09:42 PM »

No way is she brainwashed shes at uni thats a place where you free think not where you get brainwashed.

I wish that were a true statement.

Yeah, I loled at that line. I thought she was being sarcastic at first.

I thought she was being sarcastic, too.
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« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2011, 12:52:15 PM »

Codswallop.

haha...
w/eva
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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2011, 07:15:59 PM »

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.   

    In same-sex relationships who is or is not the "passive" member is negotatiated by the two people based on communication.  It is unlike patriarchial heteronormativity that insists that one person must be a particular way to uphold an ideal simply because of the way they appear.  And unlike heteronormativity, one person is not necessarily unequal simply for choosing a more passive stance.  Research has shown that same-sex relationships are more egalitarian than heterosexual ones:  http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/87672/
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2011, 09:32:54 PM »

There is a difference between a woman being feminine and a man being feminine (and vice versa).  In homosexual / transgendered relationships, someone has to be the dominant gender and someone has to be the passive gender (and they can switch).  I never knew of a homosexual relationship where both partners were "equal" in gender roles.  In one such relationship, I knew of a tall male Marine who played the submissive role and received abuse for it.   

    In same-sex relationships who is or is not the "passive" member is negotatiated by the two people based on communication.

Sure, people always change their mind and their preferences and desires - like in heterosexual relationships.
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