What if?

[Rdunbar123]

Just a question of interest. I am a catechumen in the WR(antiochian). my question in particular to Western rite Orthodox believers is:
if some future Pan Orthodox council decided that the WR was non-canonical, would you stay orthodox? Just curious, I believe for myself that  Orthodox faith is the correct one, I just feel for now that the WR is closer to me ethnically as I was RC. I understand the fear that WR is sort of a slippery slope, because many seemingly "innocent" changes both in the  RC church and our country as well have led to  cultural and religious chaos we are now experiencing. I definitely would go to a nearby EO church if this happened.

[primuspilus]

Although I will be joining a WR church, I state that the Orthodox Church is the One, True church and I adhere to its dictates. If an Ecumenical Council convened and stated WR is not orthodox, I would abandon the Western Rite as I follow the church, not a rite.

[Shanghaiski]

I'm not aware of the Western Rite having been opposed at all on canonical grounds.

[Rdunbar123]

I have read some criticism on this site and others complaining that the liturgy is not "orthodox" I tend to ignore fringe elements and I am convinced the WR will grow, but everyone involved needs to understand that if the WR church near them would close the Byzantine rite is what remains. I too will be Orthodox no matter what the liturgy it is the true church.

[Sleeper]

The Catholic Churches that make up the Orthodox Communion are the only ones in existence that confess and embody the Apostolic Faith. There is nowhere else to go.

That being said, I am of the persuasion that if the Apostolic Faith is truly going to transform Western culture as a whole (as opposed to just bringing in handfuls of individual converts or the occasional parish) that it won't happen by importing a spiritual culture and expression that was unique to another time and place, beautiful and powerful as that expression may be. Instead, it will happen by reinvigorating the inherent Orthodoxy found in our authentically Apostolic Western tradition, that was formed uniquely upon the Western mind and which, in turn, formed the whole of Western culture. We need to call Westerners back to their own roots, affirming the Orthodoxy found in their living liturgical life throughout the centuries, one whose memory is Western, making it the center of our cultural life once again.

To me, that's the "goal" of Western Orthodoxy.

[Shanghaiski]

if some future Pan Orthodox council decided that the WR was non-canonical

it would be wrong, anti-Orthodox, and, therefore, unacceptable.

[primuspilus]

it would be wrong, anti-Orthodox, and, therefore, unacceptable.

Part of Orthodoxy is submitting to the decisions of the Bishops. If they declare WR to be heretical then we should have faith that the Holy Spirit guided them to that decision. I for one, would abandon the WR, but I dont think that would happen.

I do have a problem with Bishops making public their disdain for the WR (Bishop Ware being one)

PP

[Achronos]

The Catholic Churches that make up the Orthodox Communion are the only ones in existence that confess and embody the Apostolic Faith. There is nowhere else to go.

That being said, I am of the persuasion that if the Apostolic Faith is truly going to transform Western culture as a whole (as opposed to just bringing in handfuls of individual converts or the occasional parish) that it won't happen by importing a spiritual culture and expression that was unique to another time and place, beautiful and powerful as that expression may be. Instead, it will happen by reinvigorating the inherent Orthodoxy found in our authentically Apostolic Western tradition, that was formed uniquely upon the Western mind and which, in turn, formed the whole of Western culture. We need to call Westerners back to their own roots, affirming the Orthodoxy found in their living liturgical life throughout the centuries, one whose memory is Western, making it the center of our cultural life once again.

To me, that's the "goal" of Western Orthodoxy.

Great post, I think that may start once ones renounce the Vatican.

[Shanghaiski]

it would be wrong, anti-Orthodox, and, therefore, unacceptable.

Part of Orthodoxy is submitting to the decisions of the Bishops. If they declare WR to be heretical then we should have faith that the Holy Spirit guided them to that decision. I for one, would abandon the WR, but I dont think that would happen.

I do have a problem with Bishops making public their disdain for the WR (Bishop Ware being one)

PP

If the bishops are wrong, they ought not to be followed. Does no one see how insane it would be for this scenario to happen, how antithetical it would be to holy tradition?

[primuspilus]

If the bishops are wrong, they ought not to be followed. Does no one see how insane it would be for this scenario to happen, how antithetical it would be to holy tradition?

I just think that it WONT happen. However, in this hypothetical situation I would state what I stated above.

PP

[JamesRottnek]

The bishops really wouldn't have to declare it heretical.  Any bishop with a WR parish would simply have to withdraw their permission to celebrate a western liturgy.

[James2]

if some future Pan Orthodox council decided that the WR was non-canonical, would you stay orthodox?

Probably not.  I would regard such a decision as a sign that the Orthodox Church is not fully Catholic, for it would be narrowly restricting itself to the Eastern tradition.  I don't think I'd ever be at home in the Byzantine rite.

[primuspilus]

I really dont think that would happen though as there were distinct rites in the West prior to the split. I do think that the rite might be altered somewhat for whatever reason (like maybe "this or that" might not be Orthodox enough, etc)

PP

[Agabus]

If the bishops are wrong, they ought not to be followed. Does no one see how insane it would be for this scenario to happen, how antithetical it would be to holy tradition?

I just think that it WONT happen. However, in this hypothetical situation I would state what I stated above.

PP

Like the East did after Florence?

[Agabus]

I suppose a way to nuance the question posed by the OP is to ask "What if the bishops declared the particular WR rite that you celebrate to be out-of-bounds?"

[Shanghaiski]

I suppose a way to nuance the question posed by the OP is to ask "What if the bishops declared the particular WR rite that you celebrate to be out-of-bounds?"

It is the bishop's perogative what liturgy is celebrated in his diocese, all caveats applying.

[JamesRottnek]

Then you go into schism if you celebrate it.  Simple as that.  The bishops permit the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom to be performed, they permit (in some cases) the Liturgy of St. James to be performed.  They permit (in some cases) a western liturgy to be performed.  Why should anyone think that they have a right to perform a particular liturgy?  If the bishop has to permit a priest to perform a western liturgy (and he does), then that means he has a right to withdraw his permission (assuming that a synod hasn't declared that priests are permitted to perform it).

[Melodist]

I'm not a mamber of a WR church, but am n ot opposed to it. If there were one nearby, I would probably at least visit that church ocasionally, maybe even have that as my home if it were the closest. St John Maximovitch said, and was right, that the western expression of the Orthodox faith predates any of the heresies/schisms that have happened over the course of the last thousand years. That alongside St Paul's admonoition to meditate on that which is good, I believe there is hope for western experssinos of faith to be grafted back into Orthodoxy without having to be "historically reconstructed" while at the same time removing anything that might run contradictory to the Orthodox faith.

That being said, in the case of the OP, I would not break communion with the Church, but would probably have to sit down and discuss the issue with my priest because I don't think my views would change conderning the validity of a western expression of the faith just because a group of bishops says that one must be eastern in order to properly worship Christ. Orthodoxy is the substance of our faith, not one particular liturgical rite.

My patron saint is quoted in the Book of Armagh for saying "It behoves all the church which follow me, at all hours of prayer, to use that very praiseworthy sentence, Curie lession, Christe lession. For all churches should sing, Cyrie lession, Christe lession, deo gratias."

[Agabus]

I suppose a way to nuance the question posed by the OP is to ask "What if the bishops declared the particular WR rite that you celebrate to be out-of-bounds?"

It is the bishop's prerogative what liturgy is celebrated in his diocese, all caveats applying.

Yes...

But several WR posters have in the past (and at least one in this thread) said that they do not believe they will ever feel at home in the ER. So what I was asking was more in reference to their personal response -- what would they do if the WR was suddenly unavailable to them?

[Shanghaiski]

I suppose a way to nuance the question posed by the OP is to ask "What if the bishops declared the particular WR rite that you celebrate to be out-of-bounds?"

It is the bishop's prerogative what liturgy is celebrated in his diocese, all caveats applying.

Yes...

But several WR posters have in the past (and at least one in this thread) said that they do not believe they will ever feel at home in the ER. So what I was asking was more in reference to their personal response -- what would they do if the WR was suddenly unavailable to them?

Get over it and hold to the Orthodox faith, just like they do if there is no WRO church around.

[primuspilus]

Get over it and hold to the Orthodox faith, just like they do if there is no WRO church around.

Exactly. I am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy, not a rite. Whether WRO existed or not, I would do so.

PP

[bogdan]

I suppose a way to nuance the question posed by the OP is to ask "What if the bishops declared the particular WR rite that you celebrate to be out-of-bounds?"

It is the bishop's prerogative what liturgy is celebrated in his diocese, all caveats applying.

Yes...

But several WR posters have in the past (and at least one in this thread) said that they do not believe they will ever feel at home in the ER. So what I was asking was more in reference to their personal response -- what would they do if the WR was suddenly unavailable to them?

I'm in favor of the WR generally, but this kind of outlook is troubling to me. I know dozens of Orthodox converts, many of which were Western Protestant Christians previously, and not a single one has ever expressed feeling out of place in an eastern liturgy.

I think a lot of this is artificial stumbling-blocks created by people who philosophize too much. Until I became aware of the Western rite, I never gave a single thought to cultural expressions in liturgy. I never stood in church thinking, "This is so alien to western culture."

These concerns may exist for people who were raised in a western "high church" environment, and that's fine; I support the WR for that reason, and because people might like that more. But I don't buy into the idea of insurmountable cultural differences. These are Russians and Greeks, not Martians and Ewoks.

[James2]

I suppose a way to nuance the question posed by the OP is to ask "What if the bishops declared the particular WR rite that you celebrate to be out-of-bounds?"

It is the bishop's prerogative what liturgy is celebrated in his diocese, all caveats applying.

Yes...

But several WR posters have in the past (and at least one in this thread) said that they do not believe they will ever feel at home in the ER. So what I was asking was more in reference to their personal response -- what would they do if the WR was suddenly unavailable to them?

It's a fair question.  More likely scenarios would be if I moved to an area where there is no WR parish or if my current parish were to close.  I'm not sure what I'd do, but I doubt I'd go to an ER parish regularly.  But don't consider me representative of the WR.

[Basil 320]

I really don't think there is a realistic possibility that an Ecumenical Synod would deem the Eastern Orthodox Church's Western Rite non-canonical.  I've never heard anyone condemn it--it's not a topic of discussion in Orthodox ecclesial circles.  There would be plenty of warning if such action were to be taken.  Typically, Ecumenical Synods and Pan-Orthodox Synods are called to react to a development that is in question or is a matter of significant dispute.  Take the pending Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church, which has been in planning phases since 1930; its agenda wasn't agreed to until the late 1960's, as I recall.  Pre-Conciliar Commissions, composed of representatives of the Holy Orthodox Churches have been meeting ever since, publishing decisions, which are circulated through the church for contemplation and comment.  I'm not really a supporter of the Western Rite (primarily due to my opposition to the Roman Catholic Byzantine Rites), but I'm not an opponent either.  Likewise I would think those (like some traditionalist zealots) who may oppose the Western Rite, would not wish to dismiss faithful Orthodox Christian who have found their way into Orthodoxy via the Western Rite.

[Alpo]

These concerns may exist for people who were raised in a western "high church" environment

Just to remind people, this so-called high church enviroment includes pretty much the whole Western Europe. Despite the rapidly spreading secularism European Christianity is still fairly high church on American standards.

I recall standing in a church thinking more or less that "this is so alien to Western culture." irregardless of existence of WRO.

[Sleeper]

I think if the Apostolic Faith is really going the thrive again in the Western world, it will happen by rejuvenating the inherent Orthodoxy in the living Western patrimony, rather than calling people to abandon it in favor of the (beautiful and venerable) Eastern patrimony or turning it into something it's not (setting the clock back 1,000 years by "resurrecting" old liturgies).

It's true that people can eventually feel at home in the Byzantine tradition, and we've seen as much in the many converts coming in, not to mention entire parishes. But I don't think that's the cure for the Western world. We need to bring healing and health to the living patrimony, affirming Orthodoxy wherever it's found, surgically removing anything that is decayed, and perhaps supplementing where necessary.

In the words of (Orthodox priest) Fr. John Winfrey:

I am convinced that to resurrect the Western culture to its proper place the Mass must be brought back to the center of life. And it must be the old Mass which was the living tradition in the West from the time of the Apostles. It is not enough to have a Eucharistic liturgy. The Divine Liturgy will not function in the manner that is needed. No, it is a product--which is altogether magnificent and beautiful--of a different culture. The Latin Mass (even in liturgical English) is what formed our parents and ancestors. It is still the quiet and almost unknown heartbeat of our culture.

If the Orthodox Church in the West remains exclusively or predominately "Eastern" in its expression of Christian culture, I don't think it will outgrow its foreigness and exoticism enough to become for modern Westerners what it was for ancient Westerners--simply, the Church of Christ. True, real mission work is not about numbers, but it's also not just about the conversion of the individual. Classical Orthodox mission work has always focused on the society, the culture. Make the culture Orthodox, and it will support the people for generations. Westerners becoming Orthodox do not stop being Western culturally. Such a thing would be impossible. However, the current trend is that they are becoming Eastern in their spiritual and religious culture. Thus, what they have to offer by word and example to their non-Orthodox Western brethren, is a praxis which is foreign to Western culture because it did not develop in Western culture. Therefore, fellow Westerners will not necessarily recognize it as being something in which they can take part in a natural, familiar way. Orthodoxy does, however, have a particular Western praxis which developed in the Western cultural milieu. While it is Orthodox and Christian (and, thus, still strange to many Westerners), it is fundamentally familiar, and non-Orthodox Westerners will be able to view it as something which belongs to them.

[Alpo]

...turning it into something it's not (setting the clock back 1,000 years by "resurrecting" old liturgies).

That's exactly what many Western denominations have been doing for last couple of decades: resurrecting ancient liturgical traditions. I don't think any of them deem it to be somehow antithetical to their Western patrimony.

[Shanghaiski]

...turning it into something it's not (setting the clock back 1,000 years by "resurrecting" old liturgies).

That's exactly what many Western denominations have been doing for last couple of decades: resurrecting ancient liturgical traditions. I don't think any of them deem it to be somehow antithetical to their Western patrimony.

Indeed. They are hardly very different from the "modern" rites, the modern ones are just stripped down versions of the ancient Western rites.

[primuspilus]

Indeed. They are hardly very different from the "modern" rites, the modern ones are just stripped down versions of the ancient Western rites.

If this is so, is there documentation of the ancient Western Rites? Do we (or soon to be we in my case) follow the dictates in said documentation?

If not, why?
If so, why did this get pushed down? Rome?

PP

[Sleeper]

My point was that this is a healthier option than rejecting things wholesale based on arbitrary dates. Believe it or not, this is a common mindset and goal of some. Of course things can be brought back into use and resurrected into the living patrimony. Much of what we do is just that I was just making a distinction between approaches.

[Shanghaiski]

Of course is documentation. Not everything has been lost to time. I prefer not to get involved in a discussion because it's a nasty issue and one of the most disagreeable things about the Western Rite in Orthodoxy--it's very small and popuated with far too many "experts" per capita.

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