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Author Topic: Can you crucify Christ twice in the same Church?  (Read 817 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bruin5
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« on: April 17, 2011, 04:32:35 PM »

I am Greek Orthodox.  In our community, a group of Arabic individuals is looking to start their own Eastern Orthodox community.  Unfortunately, their language is of paramount importance to them, and they have refused to join our community, even though about 90% of our service is done in English.  They also have some Roman Catholics in their community who refuse to convert but still want to partake of the Sacraments, mostly because the Patriarch of Jerusalem, they say, allows that to happen in certain parts of the Middle East (I cannot confirm or deny this).

Anyway, we have taken to renting them our Church in order for them to hold their own Divine Liturgies as we can't seem to get them to be part of us, and don't want to stop them from forming their own community.   

Now, we come to Holy Week.  Rather than join us, they want to hold their own services immediately following our (except for Holy Saturday - but even then they are looking at holding the service at 9:00 a.m on Sunday.

On Holy Thursday and Holy Friday, they want to hold those services immediately following ours.   There is something about bothersome about that to me.   I can't wrap my arms around Christ being crucified by the Greek Orthodox, and then Christ being taken down from the Cross, and then being crucified again 3 hours later in the same Church.   Same with Holy Friday, for the Body of Christ to be removed from the tomb and placed on the altar, and then being placed back into the tomb and being removed again.

Maybe it's because I just have never seen or been part of anything like this before.  It may be perfectly acceptable, I'm just struggling with it.

Any help or information for this sinner would be most appreciated.

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Robb
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 04:58:16 PM »

Arab Orthodox have their own traditions and language.  They probably would like to preserve these and feel that being permanent members of a Greek Orthodox parish would not allow them the opportunity to do so.  Greek Orthodoxy and Arabs have had somewhat of a rocky relationship over the past several centuries anyway, so I'm not hearing anything new or unusual in these peoples request for their own church.
If they are that serious though about wishing to separate from your parish then they should probably hold their services at another location (Such as a rented hall) until they can build their own parish. 
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 05:41:49 PM »

We have a group that rents from, us too.  As long as your bishop allows you to give them the space, all's well.  They're not crucifying Christ a "second time," as you said, but rather observing their own remembrance, as Robb explained.  The One Lord died once and rose on the third day, yet is "ever-slain" as one canon puts it.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 05:46:41 PM »

I am Greek Orthodox.  In our community, a group of Arabic individuals is looking to start their own Eastern Orthodox community.  Unfortunately, their language is of paramount importance to them, and they have refused to join our community, even though about 90% of our service is done in English.  They also have some Roman Catholics in their community who refuse to convert but still want to partake of the Sacraments, mostly because the Patriarch of Jerusalem, they say, allows that to happen in certain parts of the Middle East (I cannot confirm or deny this).

Anyway, we have taken to renting them our Church in order for them to hold their own Divine Liturgies as we can't seem to get them to be part of us, and don't want to stop them from forming their own community.   

Now, we come to Holy Week.  Rather than join us, they want to hold their own services immediately following our (except for Holy Saturday - but even then they are looking at holding the service at 9:00 a.m on Sunday.

On Holy Thursday and Holy Friday, they want to hold those services immediately following ours.   There is something about bothersome about that to me.   I can't wrap my arms around Christ being crucified by the Greek Orthodox, and then Christ being taken down from the Cross, and then being crucified again 3 hours later in the same Church.   Same with Holy Friday, for the Body of Christ to be removed from the tomb and placed on the altar, and then being placed back into the tomb and being removed again.

Maybe it's because I just have never seen or been part of anything like this before.  It may be perfectly acceptable, I'm just struggling with it.

Any help or information for this sinner would be most appreciated.



When my in-laws church in Buffalo, NY burned down in the early 1980's the local Greek Orthodox community welcomed them into their their home and for two years the little ACROD parish held its Divine Liturgy using the antimensia of their Bishop prior to the Greek Orthodox Liturgy. The only exception to the dual services was, if my memory serves me right, during Holy Week and Pascha.(At that time the ACROD parish was Old Calendar so it wasn't an issue the rest of the year.They have since adopted the Revised Julian.) I remember that my late mother-in-law and her friends were not too happy about that as Christos Voskrese was displaced by Christos Anesti those years. They got over it and moved into their new church in Cheektowaga, NY where the parish remains to this day. So, I suspect that the OP's concerns were justified based upon my story.
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genesisone
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 06:37:12 PM »

I am Greek Orthodox.  In our community, a group of Arabic individuals is looking to start their own Eastern Orthodox community.  Unfortunately, their language is of paramount importance to them, and they have refused to join our community, even though about 90% of our service is done in English.  They also have some Roman Catholics in their community who refuse to convert but still want to partake of the Sacraments, mostly because the Patriarch of Jerusalem, they say, allows that to happen in certain parts of the Middle East (I cannot confirm or deny this).
I'm a little bit confused here. Is this a canonical group? You make the point that your services are mostly in English - is that what they are rejecting? They seem to be a quite a conglomerate. I thought the Patriarchate of Jerusalem had ended their presence here in North America, so how can they claim the authority of that Patriarch? Is your own bishop aware of this situation? Did he give permission for this (vagante?) group?

I'm getting some red flags here. I think you're right to be concerned. You should be asking questions - but leave that until after Pascha please  Smiley!
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 09:09:28 PM »

They also have some Roman Catholics in their community who refuse to convert but still want to partake of the Sacraments, mostly because the Patriarch of Jerusalem, they say, allows that to happen in certain parts of the Middle East (I cannot confirm or deny this).

Would that not more likely be the Patriarch of Antioch?
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Japheth
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 05:50:11 PM »

I thought there was a canon against serving the liturgy from the same altar twice in one day (which is why cathedrals often have side altars).
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 07:17:48 PM »

That's my understanding.  If the Antiochians who are renting the church are doing the liturgy on a different altar, it's not a violation of the canons.
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 10:40:18 PM »

I think you can use the same altar twice, as long as different antimensia are used.
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 11:33:34 PM »

That's my understanding.  If the Antiochians who are renting the church are doing the liturgy on a different altar, it's not a violation of the canons.

I think these are not Antiochians but Jordanians or Palestinians
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Joseph
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