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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: June 26, 2011, 09:03:35 PM »

I am getting very confused about what name to have people at Church call me.  My old priest and his family called me Trevor, while my new priest and his family call me Tikhon (My "Christian name").  Most at Church who aren't in the priest's immediate family call me Trevor, but our reader and his family call me Tikhon.

Is it more proper at Church to introduce myself as Trevor or Tikhon?  I must say, I find that for some reason I prefer being called Tikhon.  I don't know why, but when people go from calling me Tikhon to Trevor, I get a little sad that my actual legal name isn't Tikhon. 

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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, 09:13:25 PM »

In the Greek Orthodox tradition, your Baptismal name is the name "by which God knows you", so it is the name you use when receiving the Sacraments or when being commemorated in Liturgies, the Paraklesis and other services (including, eventually, your funeral and Memorial Services).
What people call you in conversation can be a nickname. My baptismal name is George, but my friends who know me at Church call me "Alalos" during trapeza after Liturgy. "Alalos" is Greek for "the mute guy" since I don't tend to say much and usually make the coffee rather than join in conversation.
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2011, 09:24:13 PM »

My secular name is Jonathan. In keeping with Greek practice as noted by ozgeorge, I use my baptismal name of John when receiving the sacraments.

I quite like my name in the form "Ioannis" but really dislike the form "Yianni" (which the Greeks will always use when referring to me), so usually insist on being called Jonathan.

I know it is completely snobby of me, but when I hear myself called Ioannis, I feel in some way connected to St John the Baptist and Forerunner, St John the Theologian and St John Chrysostom. By contrast, when I am called Yianni, I feel only connected to that Greek guy down the road that talks too loudly at inappropriate moments, keeps bees and sells honey to bemused "white people" out of his front yard.
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2011, 09:26:55 PM »

You should know yourself by your baptismal name (the new man in Christ).  If someone outside the Church calls you by your "old man" name(which is on your legal identifications), it doesn't annul what Christ has baptised you to be called.  But, those in the Church should call you by your baptismal name.  I think you should introduce yourself as Tikhon.  It's a difficult circumstance when you have a non-Christian name, but remember that even this little effort is a personal sacrifice offered to God because you are witnessing your faith.
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2011, 09:32:40 PM »

My secular name is Jonathan. In keeping with Greek practice as noted by ozgeorge, I use my baptismal name of John when receiving the sacraments. I quite like my name in the form "Ioannis" but really dislike the form "Yianni" (which the Greeks will always use when referring to me), so usually insist on being called Jonathan. I know it is completely snobby of me, but when I hear myself called Ioannis, I feel in some way connected to St John the Baptist and Forerunner, St John the Theologian and St John Chrysostom. By contrast, when I am called Yianni, I feel only connected to that Greek guy down the road that talks too loudly at inappropriate moments, keeps bees and sells honey to bemused "white people" out of his front yard.

Actually, Yianni (Ioanni) is what we call you when we are talking TO you.  But, Ioannis is what we call you when we are referring to you.  This is the Greek rule.  It's not a different name but a proper reference for the two circumstances.  Like when I talk to my friend about John, I will say Ioannis, but when I address him, I will say: hi Ioanni. 
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2011, 09:38:53 PM »

Another example is Panyotis, Panayoti.  I saw Panayotis today.  Hi, Panayoti, how are you?  I saw Basilis (Vasilis) today.  Hi, Basil (Vasili), how are you?  I saw Petros today.  Hi, Petro, how are you?  I saw Christos today.  Hi Christo, how are you? Get the idea?
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2011, 09:41:04 PM »

My secular name is Jonathan. In keeping with Greek practice as noted by ozgeorge, I use my baptismal name of John when receiving the sacraments. I quite like my name in the form "Ioannis" but really dislike the form "Yianni" (which the Greeks will always use when referring to me), so usually insist on being called Jonathan. I know it is completely snobby of me, but when I hear myself called Ioannis, I feel in some way connected to St John the Baptist and Forerunner, St John the Theologian and St John Chrysostom. By contrast, when I am called Yianni, I feel only connected to that Greek guy down the road that talks too loudly at inappropriate moments, keeps bees and sells honey to bemused "white people" out of his front yard.

Actually, Yianni (Ioanni) is what we call you when we are talking TO you.  But, Ioannis is what we call you when we are referring to you.  This is the Greek rule.  It's not a different name but a proper reference for the two circumstances.  Like when I talk to my friend about John, I will say Ioannis, but when I address him, I will say: hi Ioanni.

Another example is Panyotis, Panayoti.  I saw Panayotis today.  Hi, Panayoti, how are you?  I saw Basilis (Vasilis) today.  Hi, Basil (Vasili), how are you?  I saw Petros today.  Hi, Petro, how are you?  Get the idea?

That is helpful, as my Greek is quite terrible, especially on grammar.

Still, there's something displeasing about the collapse of "ioa" into "yia"!

I appreciate your advice to Trevor/Tikhon.
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2011, 09:42:12 PM »

I added one more.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 09:45:32 PM »

Still, there's something displeasing about the collapse of "ioa" into "yia"!

They're just saying it really fast and it blends in, but when it's written, it is "ioa".  My name is Joanna (Ioanna), but they will pronounce it Yoanna.  It's just blending the IOA to YO.
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 09:47:42 PM »

My legal name is Keith while my baptismal name is Kevin.  I answer to both without prejudice.  The clergy and their families almost always call me Kevin.  The rest of the church goes about 50/50.  My group of closest friends find it kind of quaint/nice that the church gives you a new name and often call me Kev.  That is kind of nice.
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 09:48:48 PM »

Still, there's something displeasing about the collapse of "ioa" into "yia"!

They're just saying it really fast and it blends in, but when it's written, it is "ioa".  My name is Joanna (Ioanna), but they will pronounce it Yoanna.  It's just blending the IOA to YO.

You are making me feel a bit better about it, haha. Thank you.

I hope Trevor takes something from me being inexplicably narky about my Greek name.
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 09:56:52 PM »

My secular name is Jonathan. In keeping with Greek practice as noted by ozgeorge, I use my baptismal name of John when receiving the sacraments. I quite like my name in the form "Ioannis" but really dislike the form "Yianni" (which the Greeks will always use when referring to me), so usually insist on being called Jonathan. I know it is completely snobby of me, but when I hear myself called Ioannis, I feel in some way connected to St John the Baptist and Forerunner, St John the Theologian and St John Chrysostom. By contrast, when I am called Yianni, I feel only connected to that Greek guy down the road that talks too loudly at inappropriate moments, keeps bees and sells honey to bemused "white people" out of his front yard.

Actually, Yianni (Ioanni) is what we call you when we are talking TO you.  But, Ioannis is what we call you when we are referring to you.  This is the Greek rule.  It's not a different name but a proper reference for the two circumstances.  Like when I talk to my friend about John, I will say Ioannis, but when I address him, I will say: hi Ioanni.  

Actually while Ἰωάννης and Γιάννης are really the same name, the second is a diminutive of the first.  It is not just a matter of saying Ἰωά really fast or the nominative vs the vocative declension of the name, it is a different form of the name .  When you hear references to Saints like St John the Baptist or St John Chrysostom you would NEVER use that form of course, but when referring to a person who is not a clergyman the form Γιάννης is used. You shouldn't be offended by it, it is simply the way that people speak, like saying Βασίλης vs Βασίλειος, names tend to be simplified whenever possible. That said, you should appreciate that they don't call you something like Γιαννάκης (literally "little John")!
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 10:00:45 PM »

My secular name is Jonathan. In keeping with Greek practice as noted by ozgeorge, I use my baptismal name of John when receiving the sacraments. I quite like my name in the form "Ioannis" but really dislike the form "Yianni" (which the Greeks will always use when referring to me), so usually insist on being called Jonathan. I know it is completely snobby of me, but when I hear myself called Ioannis, I feel in some way connected to St John the Baptist and Forerunner, St John the Theologian and St John Chrysostom. By contrast, when I am called Yianni, I feel only connected to that Greek guy down the road that talks too loudly at inappropriate moments, keeps bees and sells honey to bemused "white people" out of his front yard.

Actually, Yianni (Ioanni) is what we call you when we are talking TO you.  But, Ioannis is what we call you when we are referring to you.  This is the Greek rule.  It's not a different name but a proper reference for the two circumstances.  Like when I talk to my friend about John, I will say Ioannis, but when I address him, I will say: hi Ioanni.  

Actually while Ἰωάννης and Γιάννης are really the same name, the second is a diminutive of the first.  It is not just a matter of saying Ἰωά really fast or the nominative vs the vocative declension of the name, it is a different form of the name .  When you hear references to Saints like St John the Baptist or St John Chrysostom you would NEVER use that form of course, but when referring to a person who is not a clergyman the form Γιάννης is used. You shouldn't be offended by it, it is simply the way that people speak, like saying Βασίλης vs Βασίλειος, names tend to be simplified whenever possible. That said, you should appreciate that they don't call you something like Γιαννάκης (literally "little John")!

I get that too, haha.
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 10:14:17 PM »

I am getting very confused about what name to have people at Church call me.  My old priest and his family called me Trevor, while my new priest and his family call me Tikhon (My "Christian name").  Most at Church who aren't in the priest's immediate family call me Trevor, but our reader and his family call me Tikhon.

Is it more proper at Church to introduce myself as Trevor or Tikhon?  I must say, I find that for some reason I prefer being called Tikhon.  I don't know why, but when people go from calling me Tikhon to Trevor, I get a little sad that my actual legal name isn't Tikhon. 


Have you taken a look at this thread? It's a sticky on the Faith Issues board.

Taking A New Name
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2011, 10:16:18 PM »

You should know yourself by your baptismal name (the new man in Christ).  If someone outside the Church calls you by your "old man" name(which is on your legal identifications), it doesn't annul what Christ has baptised you to be called.  But, those in the Church should call you by your baptismal name.  I think you should introduce yourself as Tikhon.  It's a difficult circumstance when you have a non-Christian name, but remember that even this little effort is a personal sacrifice offered to God because you are witnessing your faith.
What do you think of the idea of striving to sanctify your old name? When one comes into the Church from a heterodox Christian tradition, does the Christian life one lived before becoming Orthodox, the Christian life that may very well have brought one to Orthodoxy, suddenly count for nothing? Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2011, 10:53:08 PM »

You should know yourself by your baptismal name (the new man in Christ).  If someone outside the Church calls you by your "old man" name(which is on your legal identifications), it doesn't annul what Christ has baptised you to be called.  But, those in the Church should call you by your baptismal name.  I think you should introduce yourself as Tikhon.  It's a difficult circumstance when you have a non-Christian name, but remember that even this little effort is a personal sacrifice offered to God because you are witnessing your faith.
What do you think of the idea of striving to sanctify your old name? When one comes into the Church from a heterodox Christian tradition, does the Christian life one lived before becoming Orthodox, the Christian life that may very well have brought one to Orthodoxy, suddenly count for nothing? Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?
I think Irish Hermit has attempted to answer my (somewhat rhetorical) questions here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15400.msg591744.html#msg591744
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2011, 11:07:15 PM »

To Peter:

What do you think of the idea of striving to sanctify your old name?

Not a problem since my old name was Joanna and my baptismal name is Joanna, but now it is sanctified in the Truth.  BTW.  Joanna is one of the myrrbearing women that went to the tomb of Christ; in case you didn't know.  But if your old name is non-Christian then it should become a Christian name.  But, I believe that there was always an effort to find the equivalent Christian name since we are being baptised in Christ.  Is Trevor a Christian name?  How do you sanctify that name?

When one comes into the Church from a heterodox Christian tradition, does the Christian life one lived before becoming Orthodox, the Christian life that may very well have brought one to Orthodoxy, suddenly count for nothing?

Only Jesus Christ brings one to Orthodoxy.  The Christian life we led was an illusion, but I believe that all who came to Orthodoxy were not influenced by their "Christian" life, but that they were seeking the truth.  Something in us kept questioning our circumstance.

Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?

The only name that matters is your baptismal name which is SANCTIFIED by GOD by Holy Baptism..  Your last name is a matter of pride.  It is not sanctified.  Point in case, when a woman marries, she takes the man's name.  So did she lose her identity?  No!  Because her identity and the name that her guardian angel will call her is by her BAPTISMAL NAME, not her married or maiden name.

He will say:  Joanna come forth and face your Lord.  He will not say, Ms. Smith come and face your Lord.

Seriously,  how can you trace your ancestry through so many generations.  But, you can always trace your link to the saint you were named after.  Does God bless last names or the names we are baptised in?  Are there Name's Days for last names?
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 12:29:26 AM »

To Peter:

What do you think of the idea of striving to sanctify your old name?

Not a problem since my old name was Joanna and my baptismal name is Joanna, but now it is sanctified in the Truth.  BTW.  Joanna is one of the myrrbearing women that went to the tomb of Christ; in case you didn't know.  But if your old name is non-Christian then it should become a Christian name.  But, I believe that there was always an effort to find the equivalent Christian name since we are being baptised in Christ.  Is Trevor a Christian name?  How do you sanctify that name?

When one comes into the Church from a heterodox Christian tradition, does the Christian life one lived before becoming Orthodox, the Christian life that may very well have brought one to Orthodoxy, suddenly count for nothing?

Only Jesus Christ brings one to Orthodoxy.  The Christian life we led was an illusion, but I believe that all who came to Orthodoxy were not influenced by their "Christian" life, but that they were seeking the truth.  Something in us kept questioning our circumstance.

Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?

The only name that matters is your baptismal name which is SANCTIFIED by GOD by Holy Baptism..  Your last name is a matter of pride.  It is not sanctified.  Point in case, when a woman marries, she takes the man's name.  So did she lose her identity?  No!  Because her identity and the name that her guardian angel will call her is by her BAPTISMAL NAME, not her married or maiden name.

He will say:  Joanna come forth and face your Lord.  He will not say, Ms. Smith come and face your Lord.

Seriously,  how can you trace your ancestry through so many generations.  But, you can always trace your link to the saint you were named after.  Does God bless last names or the names we are baptised in?  Are there Name's Days for last names?

See my reply here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15400.msg591802.html#msg591802
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 12:32:13 AM »

Peter, I tried your link but it just brings me back to the post.
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2011, 12:35:26 AM »

Peter, I tried your link but it just brings me back to the post.
Yes, it does, but my post is now on a different thread. I'm trying to steer conversation toward the sticky that addresses this same subject until such time that Thomas decides to merge these two threads.
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2011, 12:35:44 AM »

When in Rome . . .
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2011, 12:52:43 AM »

When in Rome . . .

Even Caesar used the vocative, the familiar even with his friend turned assassin. Personally, for me, when you are knifing me in the back, I am dropping the whole familiar thing and I ain't calling you anything near your name, unless it is Richard (which we all know the vocative of in English //:=|)

Glad someone else brought out the diminutive and vocative elements of the use of the Greek.
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 01:27:34 AM »

Joasia:  Is Trevor a Christian name?  How do you sanctify that name?

Peter: By becoming a saint

Joasia:But is Trevor a name of a saint in our Orthodox Church?  Only Jesus Christ brings one to Orthodoxy.  The Christian life we led was an illusion, but I believe that all who came to Orthodoxy were not influenced by their "Christian" life, but that they were seeking the truth.  Something in us kept questioning our circumstance.

Peter: That's certainly your opinion, the validity of which I'm not questioning, but it is merely your opinion. Personally, I don't share it. I will not believe that my earlier life as a Protestant was nothing more than a sham. It certainly was never as full of spirit and of truth as my life now in the Orthodox Church, but it was never a mere illusion, either. No opinion you share is going to change my mind on that.

Joasia: What I mean to express is that the perception of what we lived as believing to be Christian was certainly less than compared to the Orthodox faith.  In that way, I did feel that the RC was an illusion of faith and sorry if I offend your sensitivity, but Protestanism was even farther than that.

Peter: Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?

Joasia: The only name that matters is your baptismal name which is SANCTIFIED by GOD by Holy Baptism..  Your last name is a matter of pride.  It is not sanctified.

Peter: I'm not talking about my surname. I'm talking about the first name (e.g., Frank, Jason, Edward, Norman, etc.) I was given at birth.

Joasia: Let's be logical.  If your name is listed amongst the Orthodox saints then it's fine.  But, if the name is Trevor, please show me the life of St. Trevor.
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 01:55:23 AM »

I wish there was a St. Trevor, that would be interesting, but I don't believe that there is a St. Trevor that we know of.  I'm sure there are some Sainted Trevor's out there that only the Lord knows of.
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 03:41:57 AM »

Joasia:  Is Trevor a Christian name?  How do you sanctify that name?

Peter: By becoming a saint

Joasia:But is Trevor a name of a saint in our Orthodox Church?
Was Vladimir the name of a saint in our Orthodox Church before a Kievan prince who took the baptismal name Basil was glorified as St. Vladimir? We certainly don't venerate him as St. Basil nowadays, do we? Why do you not permit Trevor to take his name and sanctify it in the same way, through the sanctity of a life devoted wholly to Christ?

Only Jesus Christ brings one to Orthodoxy.  The Christian life we led was an illusion, but I believe that all who came to Orthodoxy were not influenced by their "Christian" life, but that they were seeking the truth.  Something in us kept questioning our circumstance.

Peter: That's certainly your opinion, the validity of which I'm not questioning, but it is merely your opinion. Personally, I don't share it. I will not believe that my earlier life as a Protestant was nothing more than a sham. It certainly was never as full of spirit and of truth as my life now in the Orthodox Church, but it was never a mere illusion, either. No opinion you share is going to change my mind on that.

Joasia: What I mean to express is that the perception of what we lived as believing to be Christian was certainly less than compared to the Orthodox faith.  In that way, I did feel that the RC was an illusion of faith and sorry if I offend your sensitivity, but Protestanism was even farther than that.

Peter: Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?

Joasia: The only name that matters is your baptismal name which is SANCTIFIED by GOD by Holy Baptism..  Your last name is a matter of pride.  It is not sanctified.

Peter: I'm not talking about my surname. I'm talking about the first name (e.g., Frank, Jason, Edward, Norman, etc.) I was given at birth.

Joasia: Let's be logical.  If your name is listed amongst the Orthodox saints then it's fine.  But, if the name is Trevor, please show me the life of St. Trevor.

I'm being logical. I could be wrong, but ISTM that you're asserting an authority beyond that which is proper to your position. Why must Trevor show you the life of St. Trevor for his name to be permissible for use by other Orthodox Christians? So far I've not seen you offer any support from any sources organic to our tradition--no patristic references, no references to liturgics, no citations of any conciliar decisions, no support even from any generally accepted pious customs. The only authority you've asserted is your own. Why should anyone recognize it and submit to it?

BTW, please learn to use the quote tags properly. Your attempts to quote others are getting even harder to read. Feel free to send me a private message if you need help with this.
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« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2011, 06:46:15 AM »

I wish there was a St. Trevor, that would be interesting, but I don't believe that there is a St. Trevor that we know of.  I'm sure there are some Sainted Trevor's out there that only the Lord knows of.
A very wise answer!
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« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2011, 07:58:44 AM »

Joasia:  Is Trevor a Christian name?  How do you sanctify that name?

Peter: By becoming a saint

Joasia:But is Trevor a name of a saint in our Orthodox Church?
Was Vladimir the name of a saint in our Orthodox Church before a Kievan prince who took the baptismal name Basil was glorified as St. Vladimir? We certainly don't venerate him as St. Basil nowadays, do we? Why do you not permit Trevor to take his name and sanctify it in the same way, through the sanctity of a life devoted wholly to Christ?

Only Jesus Christ brings one to Orthodoxy.  The Christian life we led was an illusion, but I believe that all who came to Orthodoxy were not influenced by their "Christian" life, but that they were seeking the truth.  Something in us kept questioning our circumstance.

Peter: That's certainly your opinion, the validity of which I'm not questioning, but it is merely your opinion. Personally, I don't share it. I will not believe that my earlier life as a Protestant was nothing more than a sham. It certainly was never as full of spirit and of truth as my life now in the Orthodox Church, but it was never a mere illusion, either. No opinion you share is going to change my mind on that.

Joasia: What I mean to express is that the perception of what we lived as believing to be Christian was certainly less than compared to the Orthodox faith.  In that way, I did feel that the RC was an illusion of faith and sorry if I offend your sensitivity, but Protestanism was even farther than that.

Peter: Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?

Joasia: The only name that matters is your baptismal name which is SANCTIFIED by GOD by Holy Baptism..  Your last name is a matter of pride.  It is not sanctified.

Peter: I'm not talking about my surname. I'm talking about the first name (e.g., Frank, Jason, Edward, Norman, etc.) I was given at birth.

Joasia: Let's be logical.  If your name is listed amongst the Orthodox saints then it's fine.  But, if the name is Trevor, please show me the life of St. Trevor.

I'm being logical. I could be wrong, but ISTM that you're asserting an authority beyond that which is proper to your position. Why must Trevor show you the life of St. Trevor for his name to be permissible for use by other Orthodox Christians? So far I've not seen you offer any support from any sources organic to our tradition--no patristic references, no references to liturgics, no citations of any conciliar decisions, no support even from any generally accepted pious customs. The only authority you've asserted is your own. Why should anyone recognize it and submit to it?

BTW, please learn to use the quote tags properly. Your attempts to quote others are getting even harder to read. Feel free to send me a private message if you need help with this.

Is the name listed in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2011, 08:57:17 AM »

Is the name listed in the Orthodox Church?
You chose to introduce yourself here as "joasia" rather than by your correct Orthodox name. Is the name "joasia" listed in the Orthodox Church? Or are personally chosen diminutives considered acceptable by you?

"Trevor" is quite acceptable for everyday use - just as much as your preferred "joasia" is acceptable here. His name of "Tikhon" is the one he uses quite correctly when receiving the sacraments. If Trevor is someday deemed worthy of becoming a priest, he will be known as "Father Tikhon".

Even the Apostle Peter - given that name by the Lord Himself - is called "Simon Peter" frequently throughout the Gospels and in 2 Peter, he calls himself "Simon Peter". In fact, Jesus Himself addressed him as "Simon" in John 21:15 (and perhaps elsewhere - you can do the search).
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« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2011, 09:08:48 AM »

There is a little known Saint Tremor, Tremeur, or Trever.

He is commemorated on 7/20 November

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Calendar/Nov18-Nov21.pdf

Saint Trever is the closest to Trevor, I think
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« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2011, 09:53:20 AM »

Joasia:  Is Trevor a Christian name?  How do you sanctify that name?

Peter: By becoming a saint

Joasia:But is Trevor a name of a saint in our Orthodox Church?
Was Vladimir the name of a saint in our Orthodox Church before a Kievan prince who took the baptismal name Basil was glorified as St. Vladimir? We certainly don't venerate him as St. Basil nowadays, do we? Why do you not permit Trevor to take his name and sanctify it in the same way, through the sanctity of a life devoted wholly to Christ?

Only Jesus Christ brings one to Orthodoxy.  The Christian life we led was an illusion, but I believe that all who came to Orthodoxy were not influenced by their "Christian" life, but that they were seeking the truth.  Something in us kept questioning our circumstance.

Peter: That's certainly your opinion, the validity of which I'm not questioning, but it is merely your opinion. Personally, I don't share it. I will not believe that my earlier life as a Protestant was nothing more than a sham. It certainly was never as full of spirit and of truth as my life now in the Orthodox Church, but it was never a mere illusion, either. No opinion you share is going to change my mind on that.

Joasia: What I mean to express is that the perception of what we lived as believing to be Christian was certainly less than compared to the Orthodox faith.  In that way, I did feel that the RC was an illusion of faith and sorry if I offend your sensitivity, but Protestanism was even farther than that.

Peter: Does the albeit heterodox Christian heritage of my birth family, the family that gave me my name after my very Christian grandfather, suddenly count for nothing?

Joasia: The only name that matters is your baptismal name which is SANCTIFIED by GOD by Holy Baptism..  Your last name is a matter of pride.  It is not sanctified.

Peter: I'm not talking about my surname. I'm talking about the first name (e.g., Frank, Jason, Edward, Norman, etc.) I was given at birth.

Joasia: Let's be logical.  If your name is listed amongst the Orthodox saints then it's fine.  But, if the name is Trevor, please show me the life of St. Trevor.

I'm being logical. I could be wrong, but ISTM that you're asserting an authority beyond that which is proper to your position. Why must Trevor show you the life of St. Trevor for his name to be permissible for use by other Orthodox Christians? So far I've not seen you offer any support from any sources organic to our tradition--no patristic references, no references to liturgics, no citations of any conciliar decisions, no support even from any generally accepted pious customs. The only authority you've asserted is your own. Why should anyone recognize it and submit to it?

BTW, please learn to use the quote tags properly. Your attempts to quote others are getting even harder to read. Feel free to send me a private message if you need help with this.

Is the name listed in the Orthodox Church?
Why must it be? And don't just tell me, "Because I said so!"

BTW, thanks for your efforts in mastering those nasty quote tags. This post is MUCH easier to read as a result. Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2011, 12:32:57 PM »

Tikhon,

Be called what you want to be called. Introduce yourself with that name, and answer to it. Don't shun people who still call you "Trevor" of course, but start shifting into that name and over time the majority of people will call you Tikhon. It's really up to you.

I don't see anything wrong with going by either name, especially as a layman (there's nothing wrong with one's secular name!) but I think it's good to have pride in your new Christian name, as it honors yourself, your new life in Christ, Christ Himself and your patron saint (and I love St. Tikhon the Confessor, btw!). Again, it's really your preference.

Of course, I got to cheat because I already have a Christian name, so I took a patron with my name! Although, the counter-culturalist in me still thinks about what it would've been like to take a name like "Silouan", "Nicodemus" or "Paisios"! Grin
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« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2011, 12:49:49 PM »

I very much like my Christian name. I know it is very konvertsky of me, but I like to think of it as my true name.
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« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2011, 12:56:44 PM »

Peter,

I don't want to get into a tennis match of posts with you.  This is very exhausting.  Why are you always AT me??  It makes me feel really uncomfortable as I'm new here and want to have a pleasant discussion, not having to be on the defensive with YOU everytime I post and having to provide quotes every single time.  Whereas, I don't see you asking anybody else to do that.  As for your question, why must it be...because I was taught that the names we take or give to the babies should be a blessed name, by God.  And I'm sure I read it somewhere and that explanation stuck.  But, I'm not pulling out any more books for you.   I don't want to get into: yeah but what about the first person who had that name???,   battle either.  That was then and this is now.  I don't see the logic of being baptized Christian and not having a Christian name.  This is my final comment on this, to you.  Anything after this will be a waste of my time.
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« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2011, 02:31:40 PM »

Peter,

I don't want to get into a tennis match of posts with you.  This is very exhausting.  Why are you always AT me??  It makes me feel really uncomfortable as I'm new here and want to have a pleasant discussion, not having to be on the defensive with YOU everytime I post and having to provide quotes every single time.  Whereas, I don't see you asking anybody else to do that.
Actually, I do this to everyone, so don't think I'm singling you out for special treatment. Wink I like to see people share their opinions, and I like to see people back up their assertions of fact with support from outside authorities, but I don't like people posing themselves as authorities on various subjects without support from sources outside themselves. Call it my fundamental opposition to dogmatism, if you will. If you still think I'm singling you out, just ask Punch, one of my biggest critics on this forum. He'll tell you what he thinks of my tactics.

As for your question, why must it be...because I was taught that the names we take or give to the babies should be a blessed name, by God.
Okay. Thank you for admitting that this is something you learned from your own personal experience. That's important for other people to know when you're giving advice.

And I'm sure I read it somewhere and that explanation stuck.  But, I'm not pulling out any more books for you.   I don't want to get into: yeah but what about the first person who had that name???,   battle either.  That was then and this is now.
Why does that make any difference? Tradition is still Tradition, regardless of the age you're in.

I don't see the logic of being baptized Christian and not having a Christian name.
But this isn't about having or not having a Christian name. The advice you've been giving is about how the Christian names we have should be used.

This is my final comment on this, to you.  Anything after this will be a waste of my time.
I'm sorry you feel this way, but I'm not going to change my discussion forum tactics just for you. The thing is, though, that I'm not the only one who employs such critical thinking and analysis of others' arguments as you have seen me use. If you're going to be successful in online discussion and debate, you're going to have to be able to defend your arguments against scrutiny.
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« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2011, 03:26:12 PM »

It's because of my long time experience of debating on forums that I'm fed up.  I think it's a waste of my energy.  I will just focus on conversations with posters that would like to discuss and at least kindly ask me to source them if they are interested in knowing the source for their informational gain not for attack.  And why do you need proof of things?  Haven't you read them?  I'm just talking about regular Orthodox stuff.  I'm not getting into deep theological discussions.  Geez, take it down a notch.  If it's gonna be llike this every time I post, I'll just stop coming here. 
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« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2011, 03:34:17 PM »

It's because of my long time experience of debating on forums that I'm fed up.  I think it's a waste of my energy.  I will just focus on conversations with posters that would like to discuss and at least kindly ask me to source them if they are interested in knowing the source for their informational gain not for attack.  And why do you need proof of things?  Haven't you read them?  I'm just talking about regular Orthodox stuff.  I'm not getting into deep theological discussions.  Geez, take it down a notch.  If it's gonna be llike this every time I post, I'll just stop coming here. 

Can't be that much experience. You seem to have a low thresh-hold for forum discussion, which ain't bad, as it probably is a "waste of time". This place is pretty much nerfed out.

If you have a lot of internet forum / Usenet experience, you will know that threatening to leave a forum unless the tone of the forum changes to your taste is pretty much useless.

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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2011, 03:35:50 PM »

So how did "new" Christian names become Christian names?

What were the first names or is there is a source for when every name was settled upon and the book closed for new ones?

Not ironic. Seriously.
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2011, 03:56:01 PM »

What were the first names or is there is a source for when every name was settled upon and the book closed for new ones?
My priest has told me of one of the more modern saints who had a very common baptismal name -- something like "John" -- whose theretofore secular name was the one that was used for official commemoration when he was canonized. So...never?

I realize this sounds terribly anectdotal (especially with me not being able to recall which saint), but I think it relates to the discussion at hand.
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2011, 04:33:54 PM »

There is a little known Saint Tremor, Tremeur, or Trever.

He is commemorated on 7/20 November

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Calendar/Nov18-Nov21.pdf

Saint Trever is the closest to Trevor, I think

Where were you with this post a year and a half ago?!  Wink

I love St. Tikhon the confessor, he's my favorite saint.  I don't know if I'd want to go by a St. Trevor, even if there is one.  I felt drawn to St. Tikhon ever since the first day I walked into Church.  My Church is blessed to have a relic of him.  A nun once told me "You don't choose your patron saint, your patron saint chooses you."  Who am I to argue with a sainted patriarch of Moscow and all Russia?!
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2011, 04:54:43 PM »

This is why I'll just take William of Gellone as my patron and continue to be known as "William."
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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2011, 05:19:29 PM »

What were the first names or is there is a source for when every name was settled upon and the book closed for new ones?
My priest has told me of one of the more modern saints who had a very common baptismal name -- something like "John" -- whose theretofore secular name was the one that was used for official commemoration when he was canonized. So...never?

I realize this sounds terribly anectdotal (especially with me not being able to recall which saint), but I think it relates to the discussion at hand.

Yep. New names are added all the time, but not always. St. Vladimir the Enlightener of All Rus', for example, as baptized as "Basil." When he was glorified as a saint, his pre-baptismal name, Vladimir, was used. Therefore, we now have the new saint name of Vladimir!

However, this doesn't always happen. St. Peter the Aleut took the baptismal name of Peter, but, being an Aleut, his given name is Cungagnaq. Suffice it to say, I know of no one that venerates him as St. Cungagnaq.  Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2011, 05:45:42 PM »

OK, let's say I am LA and my name is Jesus.

Can I keep it?   c]//:=|
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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2011, 07:21:00 PM »

OK, let's say I am LA and my name is Jesus.

Can I keep it?   c]//:=|

Why not? Jesus is simply the Greek form of Joshua.
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« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2011, 08:15:41 PM »

Is the name listed in the Orthodox Church?
You chose to introduce yourself here as "joasia" rather than by your correct Orthodox name. Is the name "joasia" listed in the Orthodox Church? Or are personally chosen diminutives considered acceptable by you?

"Trevor" is quite acceptable for everyday use - just as much as your preferred "joasia" is acceptable here. His name of "Tikhon" is the one he uses quite correctly when receiving the sacraments. If Trevor is someday deemed worthy of becoming a priest, he will be known as "Father Tikhon".

Even the Apostle Peter - given that name by the Lord Himself - is called "Simon Peter" frequently throughout the Gospels and in 2 Peter, he calls himself "Simon Peter". In fact, Jesus Himself addressed him as "Simon" in John 21:15 (and perhaps elsewhere - you can do the search).


I just asked if the name is listed in the Orthodox Church.  I don't see the connection of your response to my question.  I don't want to get into a battle of the wits.  I just want to be able to post a comment in peace.  Ok?
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« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2011, 09:54:33 PM »

Is the name listed in the Orthodox Church?
You chose to introduce yourself here as "joasia" rather than by your correct Orthodox name. Is the name "joasia" listed in the Orthodox Church? Or are personally chosen diminutives considered acceptable by you?

"Trevor" is quite acceptable for everyday use - just as much as your preferred "joasia" is acceptable here. His name of "Tikhon" is the one he uses quite correctly when receiving the sacraments. If Trevor is someday deemed worthy of becoming a priest, he will be known as "Father Tikhon".

Even the Apostle Peter - given that name by the Lord Himself - is called "Simon Peter" frequently throughout the Gospels and in 2 Peter, he calls himself "Simon Peter". In fact, Jesus Himself addressed him as "Simon" in John 21:15 (and perhaps elsewhere - you can do the search).


I just asked if the name is listed in the Orthodox Church.  I don't see the connection of your response to my question.  I don't want to get into a battle of the wits.  I just want to be able to post a comment in peace.  Ok?
Trevor had already answered that himself in reply #23. I didn't and don't understand why you had to ask. (Yes, I realize that in the meantime others have suggested that there is a recognized saint whose name may be a variation of Trevor.)

As you have noticed a comprehensive list of acceptable names for an Orthodox Christian does not exist. On top of that, one has to deal with local variations of names as well as translations between languages.

Anthroponomastics would be an interesting study. I wonder if there's a course at a university somewhere?
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« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2011, 09:56:34 PM »

OK, let's say I am LA and my name is Jesus.

Can I keep it?   c]//:=|

Why not? Jesus is simply the Greek form of Joshua.

I agree, but piety doesn't always make sense.
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« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2011, 10:21:04 PM »

Is the name listed in the Orthodox Church?
You chose to introduce yourself here as "joasia" rather than by your correct Orthodox name. Is the name "joasia" listed in the Orthodox Church? Or are personally chosen diminutives considered acceptable by you?

"Trevor" is quite acceptable for everyday use - just as much as your preferred "joasia" is acceptable here. His name of "Tikhon" is the one he uses quite correctly when receiving the sacraments. If Trevor is someday deemed worthy of becoming a priest, he will be known as "Father Tikhon".

Even the Apostle Peter - given that name by the Lord Himself - is called "Simon Peter" frequently throughout the Gospels and in 2 Peter, he calls himself "Simon Peter". In fact, Jesus Himself addressed him as "Simon" in John 21:15 (and perhaps elsewhere - you can do the search).


I just asked if the name is listed in the Orthodox Church.  I don't see the connection of your response to my question.  I don't want to get into a battle of the wits.  I just want to be able to post a comment in peace.  Ok?
Trevor had already answered that himself in reply #23. I didn't and don't understand why you had to ask. (Yes, I realize that in the meantime others have suggested that there is a recognized saint whose name may be a variation of Trevor.)

As you have noticed a comprehensive list of acceptable names for an Orthodox Christian does not exist. On top of that, one has to deal with local variations of names as well as translations between languages.

Anthroponomastics would be an interesting study. I wonder if there's a course at a university somewhere?

I was just responding to your post of my quote because I missed it earlier.  It may not fall into the sequence of posts at this time.  My apologizes for the confusion.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2011, 10:25:40 PM »

I was just responding to your post of my quote because I missed it earlier.  It may not fall into the sequence of posts at this time.  My apologizes for the confusion.
That can easily happen. Thank you for the explanation and the apology. Please accept mine for contributing to your frustration.
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« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2011, 10:54:10 PM »

I was just responding to your post of my quote because I missed it earlier.  It may not fall into the sequence of posts at this time.  My apologizes for the confusion.
That can easily happen. Thank you for the explanation and the apology. Please accept mine for contributing to your frustration.

No apology necessary.  Thank you for your response.  Smiley  Actually, Anthroponomastics would be an interesting subject.  I've always been curious about names, first and family.  Maybe that's why I feel the way I do about names. 
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2011, 09:14:24 AM »

There are many people in Orthodox lands who are baptized as and go by names that are not names of saints in the Church calendar. In parts of Romania, for instance, half the girls are named after local flowers. There are also naming customs like this in Slavic lands, including Ukraine and Russia.

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« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2011, 12:27:50 PM »

There are many people in Orthodox lands who are baptized as and go by names that are not names of saints in the Church calendar. In parts of Romania, for instance, half the girls are named after local flowers. There are also naming customs like this in Slavic lands, including Ukraine and Russia.

Can you list some?  It would be interesting to find the root of it (no pun intended...really.)  It just came out that way.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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