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Author Topic: Looks like we lost one  (Read 4394 times) Average Rating: 0
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2004, 06:19:54 PM »

I am sorry, but if we have to call every single group that claims to be Orthodox 'Orthodox' than I am afraid I shall have to take my leave of this forum.  It is heresy to do so to those who are not Orthodox and IMO is the utmost of blasphemy.

Think about it.  Not only would we have to call BC's 'Orthodox' and Vagante groups 'Orthodox' but we must also call some Presybterians and Baptists 'Orthodox.'  Such is just not the case.  Leaving behind the very meaning of the word Orthodox, it would also lead to mass confusion among those not familiar with all the different groups.  

I cannot protest stronly enough.  Nuff said.

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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2004, 06:46:21 PM »

Although I'm on the same side of the theological fence as Orthodoc, I finally have to speak out about this (hardly edifying) ongoing squabble about use of the word "Catholic."  

Yes, "Catholic" appears in the oldest titles for our (err, THE) Church.  We (Orthodox) also use the words "Catholic" and "catholic" differently than do Roman/Eastern/Uniate/Ruthenian/Byzantine/Melkite/Maronite/AnyOneElseIMissedOutThere?/Catholics.  

On the other hand, throughout twenty-seven years in the faith (and several jurisdictions), I NEVER have run across anyone other than Orthodoc who identified himself or herself as an "Orthodox Catholic."  People simply identify themselves as "Orthodox."

Al Green's website includes a list of religious groups that place the word "Orthodox" in their titles.  Spend some time over there reading.  Not only will you shudder at what carries the label "Orthodox", but you will gain a great understanding of what happens when a term cannot be copyrighted!  (I once was in a parish, and the priest was told by the telephone company that "Orthodox Christian" legally can be claimed by any group advertising in the yellow pages.  Fr. ___ had enquired because of a bogus group in town that was confusing uninformed, thus innocent people.)

I know that I am new to these boards; however, can't the moderator or administrator please put an end to this thread?

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Orthodoc
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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2004, 07:11:43 PM »

[On the other hand, throughout twenty-seven years in the faith (and several jurisdictions), I [/i]NEVER have run across anyone other than Orthodoc who identified himself or herself as an "Orthodox Catholic."  People simply identify themselves as "Orthodox." ]


http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/krehel_orthodox_catholic_faith.htm


Orthodoc
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2004, 07:38:43 PM »

Never claimed that my experience is coterminous with the universe.

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Orthodoc
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Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2004, 08:26:32 PM »

[On the other hand, throughout twenty-seven years in the faith (and several jurisdictions), I [/i]NEVER have run across anyone other than Orthodoc who identified himself or herself as an "Orthodox Catholic."  People simply identify themselves as "Orthodox." ]

========

http://www.orthodoxfaith.com/doctrine_church.html
 
 
The Catholicity of the Church
In the Greek text of the Nicaean Constantinoplitan Symbol of Faith (the Creed), the Church is called "catholic" (in the Slavonic translation, sobornaya). What is the significance of this Greek word?

The word catholikos in ancient Greek, pre-Christian literature is encountered very rarely. However, the Christian Church from antiquity chose this word to signify one of the principle attributes of the Church, namely, to express its universal character. Even though it had at its disposal such words as cosmos (the world), or oikoumene (the inhabited earth), evidently these latter words were insufficient to express a certain new concept which is present only to the Christian consciousness. In the ancient Symbols of Faith, wherever the word " Church" appears, it is unfailingly with the definition "catholic." Thus, in the Jerusalem Symbol of Faith we read. "And in one, holy, catholic Church"; in the Symbol of Rome: "In the holy, catholic Church, the communion of the Saints"; etc. In ancient Christian literature, this term is encountered several times in St. Ignatius the God-bearer, an Apostolic Father, for example when he says, "Where Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church." This term is constantly to be found in the Acts of all the Ecumenical Councils. In the direct translation of the word, it signifies the highest degree of all-embracingness, wholeness, fullness (being derived from cath ola, meaning "throughout the whole").

Side by side with this term, there was also used with the meaning of "universal," the word oikoumenikos. These two terms were not mixed. The Ecumenical Councils received the title Oikoumenike Synodos, from oikoumenikos, meaning from all the inhabited earth—in actual fact, the land which belonged to Greco-Roman civilization.

The Church is catholic. This corresponds to the Apostolic words, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all (Eph. 1:23). This concept indicates that the whole human race is called to salvation, and therefore all men are intended to be members of the Church of Christ, even though not all do belong to her in fact.

The Longer Orthodox Catechism, answering the question, "Why is the Church called catholic, or which is the same thing, universal?" replies: "Because she is not limited to any place, nor time, nor people, but contains true believers of all places, times and peoples" (Eastern Orthodox Books ed., p. 50).

The Church is not limited by place. It embraces in itself all people who believe in the Orthodox way, wherever they might live on the earth. On the other hand it is essential to have in mind that the Church was catholic even when it was composed of a limited number of communities, and also when, on the day of Pentecost, its bounds were not extended beyond the upper room of Zion and Jerusalem.

The Church is not limited by time: it is foreordained to bring people to faith "unto the end of the world." I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world (Matt. 28:20). The Spirit, the Comforter, will abide with you forever (John 14:16). The Mystery of the Eucharist will be performed until the Lord comes again to earth (I Cor. 11:26).

The Church is not bound up with any conditions of civil order which it would consider indispensable for itself, nor with any definite language or people.

----------

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/catholicity_church_florovsky.htm#n1

========

Here's what happens when we concede our Catholicity for the sake of an ethnic identity.  When we put more importance and emphasis on what comes BEFORE the word Orthodox rather than after.

We allow the RCC to rewrite history and try an validate all kinds of false claims regarding their faith in connection to ours -


Regarding the conversion of Russia -


http://www.catholicism.org/pages/ConvRus.htm

Regarding Fatima

Excerpt -


However, the immediate object of their prayer, the conversion of Russia, might better be considered the country's reconversion. That is because, when the nation we now know as Russia became Christian a thousand years ago, it was the One True Church she embraced. The Christian East had not yet gone into schism.
Tragic as was Russia's defection after Constantinople broke with Rome in 1054, it is understandable on the natural, human level. None of the lands that eventually came to constitute Russia ever lay within the boundaries of the Roman Empire of the West. The highly developed civilization known to the peoples of those lands was that of the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire of the East and its great capital, Constantinople. Russia went schismatic in much the manner that European nations never part of the old Roman Empire fell into heresy at the time of the Protestant revolt, commonly referred to as the "Reformation."






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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
4Truth
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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2004, 08:55:20 PM »

Orthodoc --

I am aware of the history tie-ins that you posted.  I just don't see them as relevant to what I said.  To restate what that was, if someone states his/her religion, he/she is going to say -- in the high majority of instances -- that he/she "is Orthodox", or is "an Orthodox Christian."  I was not at all discussing the historical usage of the word "catholic" with respect to the Orthodox Church.  I don't understand how/why you extrapolated from what I wrote.  

But, as I wrote to another poster who has puzzled me exceedingly today, I am sorry for offending you in whatever perceived way.  

In Christ,

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Anastasios
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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2004, 09:32:31 PM »

We've had this discussion and run around a million times.  Orthodox Catholic is an appropriate term for Orthodox Christians but no one except them understands it the same way so it is not a convenient short form.  I think the reason that Orthodoc is so insistent on the term is that I found several pamphlets in our library at SVS from his generation arguing that Orthodox Christians should take back this term.  In principle, sure, that's great but I just don't think it's going to work with the majority of people.  Besides, as other people pointed out, this is mainly a Slavic usage, Slavs being confronted with Uniatism on a day to day basis, whereas I have never heard a Greek use the term ever.

At any rate, everyone knows what the other thinks and I don't want this to get out of hand like last time so I am closing the thread.

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