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Question: Does Isaiah 53:12 say the Servant poured or exposed himself to death?  (Voting closed: March 21, 2014, 02:15:02 AM)
It says the Servant poured himself to death. - 1 (100%)
It says the Servant exposed himself to death. - 0 (0%)
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« on: June 26, 2011, 02:15:02 AM »

Isaiah 53:12(KJV) says God's Servant: "hath poured out his soul unto death”.
And the Judaica Press Tanakh version says God's Servant: "poured out his soul to death”.

The root word used here for "poured out" is "arah".
The phrase "he poured out his soul to death" [literally “poured out himself to death”] indicates that the Servant's soul was “poured out” (“he’erah”) of His body to die. In Psalm 22:14(JPT), David portrays a similar image: "I was spilled like water", although Psalm 22 uses another word, spilled (“nishpachti”).

Some other verses use the word ("arah") to mean "pour" too:
In Isaiah 32:15(JPT) the phrase means "poured out" [he’erah] like rain: "Until a spirit be poured[he’erah] us from on high, and the desert shall become a fruitful field."

Genesis 24:20 (JPS) uses another form of the same root word:
19 When she had let him drink his fill, she said, “I will also draw for your camels, until they finish drinking.”
20 Quickly emptying [vatte'ar] her jar into the trough, she ran back to the well to draw, and she drew for all his camels.


In Leviticus 20:18, "poured out" may be a better translation for ”he’erah” than "laid bare", since Leviticus 20:18(JPS) speaks of flowing liquid: “If a man lies with a woman in her infirmity and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare [he’erah] her flow and she has exposed her blood flow; both of them shall be cut off from among their people."

The next verse, Leviticus 20:19, says: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister or of your father’s sister, for that is laying bare [he’erah] one’s own flesh[or relatives]; they shall bear their guilt."
This is confusing, and it seems maybe it could metaphorically mean pouring them out in some sexual sense.


However, the Jewish Publication Society translates Isaiah 53:12 to say that the Servant only "exposed himself to death”.
Isaiah 22:6(JPS) says: While Elam bore the quiver In troops of mounted men, And Kir bared [erah] the shield.
Isaiah 3:17(JPS)'s use of the word appears confusing: My Lord will bare the pates Of the daughters of Zion, The Lord will uncover their heads. [literally: pour out/uncover their heads with a scab]
The result of using "exposed himself to death" would be that this verse would less clearly say the Servant died, like saying that he only exposed himself to death. For example, "exposing oneself to wild animals" doesn't mean that the wild animals attacked. But exposing oneself to the cold suggests that the cold did touch the person. So maybe that exposing himself to death doesn't clearly mean that he actually died?

The Complete Word Study Dictionary, e-Sword defines the Hebrew word here, "arah" as follows:
Quote
A verb meaning to expose, to uncover, to empty. It means to employ something, to pour something out: water from a vessel (Gen_24:20); items from a chest or container (2Ch_24:11); pouring out one's soul, life (Isa_53:12). It has the sense of something increasing, spreading out, permeating an area (Psa_37:35); of emptying, tearing down, or razing (Psa_137:7); of leaving someone without help, exposed to danger (Psa_141:8). It indicates uncovering or making bare one's forehead (Isa_3:17). It means to prepare a weapon for use, to uncover it (Isa_22:6). It is used of not exposing a woman's menstrual flow for intercourse (Lev_20:18-19). It has the figurative sense of exposing oneself to destruction as a people, a nation (Lam_4:21); as well as God's work in opening up a city to destruction (Zep_2:14). It indicates killing someone (Hab_3:13)

The New American Standard Bible's usage of the word (in parenthesis are the number of ways it translates "arah") in different Bible verses is:
Quote
defenseless* (1), emptied (1), empty (1), laid bare (2), lay him open (1), leave (1), made naked (1), make their bare (1), make yourself naked (1), poured (2), raze (2), spreading (1), uncovered (1).
And I read the Bible has the root word "arah" 16 times.

The Septuagint says in Isaiah 52:12 : his soul was delivered to death
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, 07:51:41 AM »

Thank you, Rakovsky. I enjoy learning from your posts.  Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2011, 06:55:03 PM »

Thanks Biro.
Your posts are interesting too, like when you talked about the Civil War.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 06:56:27 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2011, 07:30:13 PM »

Isaiah 53:12(KJV) says God's Servant: "hath poured out his soul unto death”.
And the Judaica Press Tanakh version says God's Servant: "poured out his soul to death”.

The root word used here for "poured out" is "arah".
The phrase "he poured out his soul to death" [literally “poured out himself to death”] indicates that the Servant's soul was “poured out” (“he’erah”) of His body to die. In Psalm 22:14(JPT), David portrays a similar image: "I was spilled like water", although Psalm 22 uses another word, spilled (“nishpachti”).

Some other verses use the word ("arah") to mean "pour" too:
In Isaiah 32:15(JPT) the phrase means "poured out" [he’erah] like rain: "Until a spirit be poured[he’erah] us from on high, and the desert shall become a fruitful field."

Genesis 24:20 (JPS) uses another form of the same root word:
19 When she had let him drink his fill, she said, “I will also draw for your camels, until they finish drinking.”
20 Quickly emptying [vatte'ar] her jar into the trough, she ran back to the well to draw, and she drew for all his camels.


In Leviticus 20:18, "poured out" may be a better translation for ”he’erah” than "laid bare", since Leviticus 20:18(JPS) speaks of flowing liquid: “If a man lies with a woman in her infirmity and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare [he’erah] her flow and she has exposed her blood flow; both of them shall be cut off from among their people."

The next verse, Leviticus 20:19, says: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister or of your father’s sister, for that is laying bare [he’erah] one’s own flesh[or relatives]; they shall bear their guilt."
This is confusing, and it seems maybe it could metaphorically mean pouring them out in some sexual sense.


However, the Jewish Publication Society translates Isaiah 53:12 to say that the Servant only "exposed himself to death”.
Isaiah 22:6(JPS) says: While Elam bore the quiver In troops of mounted men, And Kir bared [erah] the shield.
Isaiah 3:17(JPS)'s use of the word appears confusing: My Lord will bare the pates Of the daughters of Zion, The Lord will uncover their heads. [literally: pour out/uncover their heads with a scab]
The result of using "exposed himself to death" would be that this verse would less clearly say the Servant died, like saying that he only exposed himself to death. For example, "exposing oneself to wild animals" doesn't mean that the wild animals attacked. But exposing oneself to the cold suggests that the cold did touch the person. So maybe that exposing himself to death doesn't clearly mean that he actually died?

The Complete Word Study Dictionary, e-Sword defines the Hebrew word here, "arah" as follows:
Quote
A verb meaning to expose, to uncover, to empty. It means to employ something, to pour something out: water from a vessel (Gen_24:20); items from a chest or container (2Ch_24:11); pouring out one's soul, life (Isa_53:12). It has the sense of something increasing, spreading out, permeating an area (Psa_37:35); of emptying, tearing down, or razing (Psa_137:7); of leaving someone without help, exposed to danger (Psa_141:Cool. It indicates uncovering or making bare one's forehead (Isa_3:17). It means to prepare a weapon for use, to uncover it (Isa_22:6). It is used of not exposing a woman's menstrual flow for intercourse (Lev_20:18-19). It has the figurative sense of exposing oneself to destruction as a people, a nation (Lam_4:21); as well as God's work in opening up a city to destruction (Zep_2:14). It indicates killing someone (Hab_3:13)

The New American Standard Bible's usage of the word (in parenthesis are the number of ways it translates "arah") in different Bible verses is:
Quote
defenseless* (1), emptied (1), empty (1), laid bare (2), lay him open (1), leave (1), made naked (1), make their bare (1), make yourself naked (1), poured (2), raze (2), spreading (1), uncovered (1).
And I read the Bible has the root word "arah" 16 times.

The Septuagint says in Isaiah 52:12 : his soul was delivered to death
What do you hope to accomplish with this interesting word study?
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2011, 10:08:01 PM »

I can't vote since I'm an Orthodox Christian so I only accept the Septuagint, and the Septuagint version is not an option in the poll.
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 06:30:07 AM »

Here's the Greek text:

12 διὰ τοῦτο αὐτὸς κληρονομήσει πολλοὺς καὶ τῶν ἰσχυρῶν μεριεῖ σκῦλα, ἀνθ᾿ ὧν παρεδόθη εἰς θάνατον ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἀνόμοις ἐλογίσθη· καὶ αὐτὸς ἁμαρτίας πολλῶν ἀνήνεγκε καὶ διὰ τὰς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν παρεδόθη.

The bolded verb paredhothi means "handed over", or "gave up". It shares the root of paradhosi, whuch means tradition (that which is handed down). Both words carry the notion of a free and unconstained giving. not a giving under sufferance/obligation.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 01:42:25 AM »

Dear PeterTheAleut,

Hello! You asked:
Isaiah 53:12(KJV) says God's Servant: "hath poured out his soul unto death”.
And the Judaica Press Tanakh version says God's Servant: "poured out his soul to death”.

The root word used here for "poured out" is "arah".
The phrase "he poured out his soul to death" [literally “poured out himself to death”] indicates that the Servant's soul was “poured out” (“he’erah”) of His body to die. In Psalm 22:14(JPT), David portrays a similar image: "I was spilled like water", although Psalm 22 uses another word, spilled (“nishpachti”).

Some other verses use the word ("arah") to mean "pour" too:
In Isaiah 32:15(JPT) the phrase means "poured out" [he’erah] like rain: "Until a spirit be poured[he’erah] us from on high, and the desert shall become a fruitful field."

Genesis 24:20 (JPS) uses another form of the same root word:
19 When she had let him drink his fill, she said, “I will also draw for your camels, until they finish drinking.”
20 Quickly emptying [vatte'ar] her jar into the trough, she ran back to the well to draw, and she drew for all his camels.


In Leviticus 20:18, "poured out" may be a better translation for ”he’erah” than "laid bare", since Leviticus 20:18(JPS) speaks of flowing liquid: “If a man lies with a woman in her infirmity and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare [he’erah] her flow and she has exposed her blood flow; both of them shall be cut off from among their people."

The next verse, Leviticus 20:19, says: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister or of your father’s sister, for that is laying bare [he’erah] one’s own flesh[or relatives]; they shall bear their guilt."
This is confusing, and it seems maybe it could metaphorically mean pouring them out in some sexual sense.


However, the Jewish Publication Society translates Isaiah 53:12 to say that the Servant only "exposed himself to death”.
Isaiah 22:6(JPS) says: While Elam bore the quiver In troops of mounted men, And Kir bared [erah] the shield.
Isaiah 3:17(JPS)'s use of the word appears confusing: My Lord will bare the pates Of the daughters of Zion, The Lord will uncover their heads. [literally: pour out/uncover their heads with a scab]
The result of using "exposed himself to death" would be that this verse would less clearly say the Servant died, like saying that he only exposed himself to death. For example, "exposing oneself to wild animals" doesn't mean that the wild animals attacked. But exposing oneself to the cold suggests that the cold did touch the person. So maybe that exposing himself to death doesn't clearly mean that he actually died?

The Complete Word Study Dictionary, e-Sword defines the Hebrew word here, "arah" as follows:
Quote
A verb meaning to expose, to uncover, to empty. It means to employ something, to pour something out: water from a vessel (Gen_24:20); items from a chest or container (2Ch_24:11); pouring out one's soul, life (Isa_53:12). It has the sense of something increasing, spreading out, permeating an area (Psa_37:35); of emptying, tearing down, or razing (Psa_137:7); of leaving someone without help, exposed to danger (Psa_141:Cool. It indicates uncovering or making bare one's forehead (Isa_3:17). It means to prepare a weapon for use, to uncover it (Isa_22:6). It is used of not exposing a woman's menstrual flow for intercourse (Lev_20:18-19). It has the figurative sense of exposing oneself to destruction as a people, a nation (Lam_4:21); as well as God's work in opening up a city to destruction (Zep_2:14). It indicates killing someone (Hab_3:13)

The New American Standard Bible's usage of the word (in parenthesis are the number of ways it translates "arah") in different Bible verses is:
Quote
defenseless* (1), emptied (1), empty (1), laid bare (2), lay him open (1), leave (1), made naked (1), make their bare (1), make yourself naked (1), poured (2), raze (2), spreading (1), uncovered (1).
And I read the Bible has the root word "arah" 16 times.

The Septuagint says in Isaiah 52:12 : his soul was delivered to death
What do you hope to accomplish with this interesting word study?
I am hoping to ascertain whether Isaiah 53:12 says the Servant (A) poured himself to death or (B) exposed himself to death.

If (A) is the case, it suggests that the Servant's soul was poured out to death, meaning that the Servant died. Further, this phrase suggests to me that the sprinkling of the nations that occurs at the end of Isaiah 52 is the sprinkling of the Servant's soul.

After all, in Isaiah 32:15(JPT) the Hebrew phrase under question used in Isaiah 53:12 means "poured out" [he’erah] like rain: "Until a spirit be poured[he’erah] us from on high, and the desert shall become a fruitful field."

The pouring of the spirit on believers in Isaiah 32:15 reminds me of the pouring of the soul in Isaiah 53:12 and the Servant's sprinkling the nations in Isaiah 52.

One thing remarkable about the sprinkling in Isaiah 52 is that it doesn't specify the liquid to be sprinkled, unlike every other time the same verb for sprinkling is used in the Old Testament. Often in other places the liquid is blood or -as it seems to me- water. And here in Isaiah 53 the association with the Servant's blood matches the image of the Servant as a sacrificed lamb. Plus, an image of water would match the rain-like image of the spirit poured in Isaiah 32.

One proposal I have seen is that the Servant's blood sprinkles the nations in Isaiah 52, based on the lamb image, and this makes sense. Another reading that makes sense to me is that the Servant himself in spirit form is what sprinkles the nations in Isaiah 52.

(A) seems to me the most likely reading to me, based on what I said in my opening message.

If (B) is the case, taken by itself it leaves open whether the Servant died. If a person is exposed to cold or wild animals or to gunfire it doesn't necessarily mean that the person became cold, was attacked, or was shot. It does suggest that the person ran the risk of being affected by those things, though.

In the case of the Septuagint, it appears to me more likely the Greek Septuagint is making an interpretive reading. After all, translation, like from Hebrew into Greek, often involves interpretation, especially when a word can have more than one meaning in the language it is being interpreted into.

In this case, it seems likely the Septuagint is interpreting the Hebrew word to mean the Servant was delivered to death, especially considering the earlier image in Isaiah 53 of the Servant being led to slaughter like a lamb. Granted, pouring a liquid can mean delivering it from one location to another. In any case, Hebrew was the original language, and based on the other instances of pouring in the Old Testament, as I mentioned, it seems more likely to me it says the Hebrew word translated as "poured" rather than some other Hebrew word meaning delivered. After all, even if the word really was delivered, it seems the same Hebrew word translated as delivered could be the origin, as a liquid delivered into another vessel from a vessel is often poured.

Kind Regards.
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 01:45:43 AM »

Dear ozgeorge,

Hello! I am doubftul of your reasoning when you write:
I can't vote since I'm an Orthodox Christian so I only accept the Septuagint, and the Septuagint version is not an option in the poll.
That is, I am doubftul that being an Orthodox Christian itself causes one to only accept the Septuagint. The Russian Synodal Version of the Bible, for example, published by the Russian Orthodox Church in the 19th century and still the main Russian-language version of the Bible today uses the Masoretic version of the Old Testament.

Furthermore, the King James Version, a traditional translation often used by English-speaking Orthodox Christians- at least in previous generations, uses the Masoretic version of the Old Testament. Plus, offhand it seems to me like the Syriac/Aramaic, Armenian, and Coptic versions of the Bible might not come from the Septuagint, since Aramaic, Armenian, and Coptic are also ancient languages.

On the other hand, of course as you say you only accept the Septuahgint, and the Septuagint version is not an option in the poll, you can't vote in it to express your view clearly.

Health to You!
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 01:46:16 AM »

Dear LBK!

Thanks for supplying the Greek Septuagint version and your helpful commentary,
which I trust as a simple matter of translation:
Here's the Greek text:

12 διὰ τοῦτο αὐτὸς κληρονομήσει πολλοὺς καὶ τῶν ἰσχυρῶν μεριεῖ σκῦλα, ἀνθ᾿ ὧν παρεδόθη εἰς θάνατον ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἀνόμοις ἐλογίσθη· καὶ αὐτὸς ἁμαρτίας πολλῶν ἀνήνεγκε καὶ διὰ τὰς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν παρεδόθη.

The bolded verb paredhothi means "handed over", or "gave up". It shares the root of paradhosi, whuch means tradition (that which is handed down). Both words carry the notion of a free and unconstained giving. not a giving under sufferance/obligation.

I especially note here that the word παρεδόθη is used twice in the same same verse you cite.

The King James Version reads:
(53:12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out(Hebrew verb "heerah") his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession (Hebrew verb "yapgia") for the transgressors.

The Septuagint reads:
(53:12) Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities.
To me, the Masoretic version fits better with the image of the lamb as an image of the Servant making atonement earlier in Isaiah 53, as well as the context of the Servant being killed- cut off from the land of the living- for the people's sins.

In the Masoretic, the Servant is rewarded for apparently pouring out his soul to death- the culmination of the process of the deliverance unto the Servant's death.
Plus, the Servant's spirit could be considered "poured out," as Leviticus says the life is in the blood, and during the sacrifice, the animal's blood is poured.
But in the Septuagint, the Servant is apparently rewarded merely for being delivered to be killed, with no mention of a reward specifically for being killed.
Plus, it wasn't just the Servant's soul that was delivered to death, like the Septuagint says, but his body too.
So the Masoretic appears like a better fit, because the culmination of the Servant's suffering is his death, and it makes sense the rewards would go most strongly for this part of the Servant's travail. Plus, the Masoretic's image of the Servant's soul being poured fits better with the sacrifice image than the image of the soul being delivered to death.

Secondly, in the Masoretic, the Servant makes intercession because of the people's sins. This is a clear match to the chapter's earlier idea of the Servant taking the blow due to the people.
But in the Septuagint, merely being "delivered" for someone else's transgressions doesn't capture the idea of substitionary atonement as clearly. The term "delivered" when put by itself doesn't as strongly show what kind of situation the person was delivered into and how this deliverance relates to those the Servant interceded for.

So in conclusion, the Masoretic makes better sense in the context of the Servant's atoning role. Since "handed over" and "delivered" are close synonyms, the same conclusio is reached whether either of those translations are used for "paredhothi."

Paredhothi's translation "gave up" especially carries "the notion of a free and unconstrained giving. not a giving under sufferance/obligation."
Unlike the term "His soul was delivered to death", the term "His soul was given up to death" in the sense of a free giving suggests to me a closer image of the Servant being killed than merely being delivered to death. Still, it doesn't appear as clear an expression of the Servant's death itself as the image of the Servant being poured out.
Additionally, the image of the soul being given up is reminiscient of an offering, which is a strong image in the context of the Servant's sacrifice. And it's true that the Servant's body was also sacrificed, but this objection can be dealt with by the fact that earlier it said "of the travail of his soul he shall see (some mss. add "the light")".
So the servant's soul can be a special point of focus when discussing the Servant's sacrifice.

Still, the term "He was given up because of their iniquities" is not as clear an image of the atonement on behalf of others as is the phrase "He made intercession for the transgressors." Merely being given up, even in a free will sense, is not as clear about the sacrificial, atoning nature of the "giving up", as "intercession," which directly acts to intervene regarding the transgressions.

Finally, although giving up the Servant in a donative sense is more reminiscient of an offering than merely delivering the Servant, it has a problem that "was delivered" doesn't: in the context of Isaiah 53, it appears to be the Servant who is giving himself up in bearing the stroke due to others. That is, it is the Servant who is making the offering. Yet saying in the passive tense that the Servant "was given up" because of their transgressions in a donative sense, as this view would apparently mean, suggests that someone else was giving up the Servant. I imagine one can say that God or the people were giving up the Servant, but at least such an idea isn't clear in the context of Isaiah 53 itself, as it appears the Servant who is giving himself up, as people reject him and it pleases God to crush Him.

So my conclusion is still that the Masoretic sounds like a better fit.

Your mention of the word "tradition" helps to give an understanding of the Greek Septuagint's word for "delivering" or "giving up" here. That is, it shows that the verb sense of the Servant being "handed over" or "given" is similar to a tradition being "handing down" or "given."

Thanks for sharing your information. Be Good.
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 06:14:07 AM »

Quote
So my conclusion is still that the Masoretic sounds like a better fit.

You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that the LXX is the OT used and mandated by the Orthodox Church, not the Masoretic. The meaning of the Greek words in question is abundantly clear - that the Servant freely gave himself up to death. The Church, through the Apostles and Fathers, has consistently interpreted this as referring to Christ's free and voluntary sacrifice. This is clearly expressed in both the hymnography and the iconography of the Church.
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 09:24:50 PM »

Quote
So my conclusion is still that the Masoretic sounds like a better fit.

You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that the LXX is the OT used and mandated by the Orthodox Church, not the Masoretic.
Dear LBK,

It seems likely to me that for liturgical purposes the Russian Orthodox Church probably often uses quotes and phrases from the LXX.

But the Russian Orthodox Church also uses the Masoretic. The only Russian-language version of the Old Testament I've found on the internet is the Russian Synodal Version:
Quote
Russian Synodal Bible (Russian: Синодальный перевод, The Synodal Translation) is a Russian non-Church Slavonic translation of the Bible commonly used by the Russian Orthodox Church... The Most Holy Synod entrusted the translation to four Orthodox theological academies, in Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kazan and Kiev... The translation of the Old Testament is based on the Jewish Masoretic Text while that of the New Testament is based on the Greek printed editions of that time...  The permission to use the Masoretic Text as preserved by the Jews... was granted to Filaret by the Synod in 1862.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Synodal_Bible

Regarding your words:
Quote
The meaning of the Greek words in question is abundantly clear - that the Servant freely gave himself up to death. The Church, through the Apostles and Fathers, has consistently interpreted this as referring to Christ's free and voluntary sacrifice. This is clearly expressed in both the hymnography and the iconography of the Church.
It seems to me you find the term "giving up" important because the church teaches he made a sacrifice. The idea of the Servant's sacrifice for others is expressed clearly in the Masoretic, like where it says "He made guilt offering" (or "When You make His soul an offering for sin") and where Isaiah 53:12, the verse in question, says "And He bore the sin of many,"

Furthermore, the LXX- at least the English translation of it- isn't as clear that it was the Servant who gave himself up. Instead, the LXX repeats that the Servant was rewarded because the Servant "was given up" to death. If something "was given up" it isn't clear that the object gave itself up. So actually, it appears more confusing to read into the LXX that it means the Servant is the one giving himself up in the sense of self-sacrifice. After all, one could also say that he "was given up" in a different sense of being "handed over" by the religious leaders to the Romans, like Joseph was handed over by his brothers to the traders in the Old Testament. So it is less clear that "was given up" means "giving up oneself", than if the LXX had said the Servant gave himself up.

So the LXX makes rational sense to me to say the Servant was given up to death. And the LXX is basically a good translation from Hebrew. I just think the Masoretic is clearer regarding "pouring"/"exposed" and "intercession." Nor does this seem like a wording the Masoretes would try to change to its current Masoretic wording to avoid a Christian meaning.

Be good.
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 02:25:54 AM »

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It seems likely to me that for liturgical purposes the Russian Orthodox Church probably often uses quotes and phrases from the LXX. But the Russian Orthodox Church also uses the Masoretic. The only Russian-language version of the Old Testament I've found on the internet is the Russian Synodal Version

Wrong. The Synodal version is never used liturgically in the Russian Orthodox Church. The Slavonic LXX is. Sorry. It's the same with the Greek church: where Greek is used liturgically, it is always koine, never modern Greek. Where do you think I got the Greek for the words you were querying? It wasn't from a Masoretic OT, my friend.

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And the LXX is basically a good translation from Hebrew.

Which Hebrew version is that? It sure ain't the Masoretic, which came out some 1200 years after the Greek LXX.

Quote
I just think the Masoretic is clearer regarding "pouring"/"exposed" and "intercession."

Your interpretation don't matter a hill of beans if it contradicts what the Church clearly proclaims. Or do you honestly think you know better?

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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 11:36:45 AM »

Hey LBK,

I think we have gone over these issues already, except for one:

Quote
Your interpretation don't matter a hill of beans if it contradicts what the Church clearly proclaims.
In case my view was heretical, do heresies matter? After all, the RC Church and OO Churches contradict our doctrine. In the case of the OO Churches, they reject the view that Christ has two natures, whereas I think Orthodoxy allows for this view as a possibility.

In any case:
Quote
It seems likely to me that for liturgical purposes the Russian Orthodox Church probably often uses quotes and phrases from the LXX. But the Russian Orthodox Church also uses the Masoretic. The only Russian-language version of the Old Testament I've found on the internet is the Russian Synodal Version

Wrong. The Synodal version is never used liturgically in the Russian Orthodox Church. The Slavonic LXX is. Sorry. It's the same with the Greek church: where Greek is used liturgically, it is always koine, never modern Greek. Where do you think I got the Greek for the words you were querying? It wasn't from a Masoretic OT, my friend.
I was not sure if the ROC Synodal Version was used liturgically, but Wikipedia says it is often used. This could just mean it is the common Russian-language translation among the Russian people. In fact, it is the only Russian one I know of.

I don't know if Greeks have a modern Greek version of the Bible that is officially sanctioned like the Russians do.

In any case, this means that the Masoretic does have some official status in the ROC, even if it is not used liturgically.

Quote
I just think the Masoretic is clearer regarding "pouring"/"exposed" and "intercession."
Your interpretation don't matter a hill of beans if it contradicts what the Church clearly proclaims. Or do you honestly think you know better? [/quote]
The servant's soul being delivered to death doesn't contradict it being poured to death. They both mean the soul passes out of the body, which corresponds to the idea (in Russian) ispustil dukh, as in "gave up the ghost(spirit)"

The Church can use the LXX for "delivered" for the transgressors'/ their iniquities too, since in Isaiah 53 in fact even in the Masoretic the message is that this is what the Servant does. So it is OK to say this liturgically. Isaiah passed this as a message. He said this, just as I say it is good weather when I say word for word "it's a nice day out". But in fact I think it is more likely that Isaiah 53 says "made intercession" as I said earlier. Plus, if the ROC really felt the LXX was a closer translation, I expect they would have used it.
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2012, 11:49:41 AM »

But why is this important?
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 12:21:26 PM »

But why is this important?

Hey Peter,

In addition to my answer in Reply #6, I would say that it can be part of the evidence showing that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of the Messiah's death and resurrection. You can point to several places in Isaiah 53 that show the Messiah would be killed, and it appears this is one of them.

Further, the discussion can add a deeper understanding of the scriptures, which is also important to us.

Peace.
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2012, 04:17:59 PM »

Is the Spirit poured out in Zechariah 12:10 Jesus' spirit, the spirit poured out in Isaiah 52:15 and 53:12?

Isaiah 52:15 says:So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him...

This reminds us of Isaiah 53's description of the Servant being sacrificed like a lamb, whose blood was poured out and sprinkled in the Temple sacrifice. And as Levitivcus 17 explained, the blood was used because the soul was int he blood. And this also reminds us of Leviticus 53:12, which says:

he hath poured out his soul unto death... and made intercession for the transgressors.

Then in Zechariah 12:10 we read about a spirit being poured on Jerusalem when the people will look to God because of the pierced one:
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him...

This reminds us of Isaiah 53, because piercing would pour out the soul, and Zechariah 12:10 mentions a spirit being poured out.

But a big difference I see is that the Servant's sprinkling in Isaiah 52 is on the many nations.
But in Zechariah 12 the spirit is poured on Jerusalem, and Zechariah doesn't specify that it's the pierced one's spirit that is poured.

What do you think?
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