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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2008, 03:20:18 PM »

[In my student days I understood this to be nothing less than the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.  The Sisters encouraged this kind of thinking for both communist *and* "schismatic" Russians! ]

That's what I was also told by all my Roman Catholic fiends and playmates.  The same ones who also told me the nuns told them it would be a grave sin if they went into my 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  One nun even told them we had an American flag on the floor that we marched and spit on.  I kid you not!  He would never take my challenge to come see for himself because he was so scared it might be true.

They are the things one never gets over when it comes to the RCC and her so called new outlook.

Orthodoc


An elderly couple from my old Church told me how they ended up (or rather, the husband) Orthodox: he was RC, she Orthodox.  Her father told them not to start with a mixed marriage, so he told his daughter to convert to the RC.  When the RC priest insisted that her baptism was void and she needed baptism the groom to be said he would never come back, and he converted to Orthodoxy instead.  This was the 1940s.

Yes, from what they told me, being Russian Orthodox in those days was a cross.  I have also been told (and actually read in a RC publication) that the slant on the three bar Russian Cross is because the Orthodox believe that Our Lord had a club foot!
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« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2009, 05:04:18 PM »


It's amazing how things change.  I was brought up in the 50's where every Friday my Roman Catholic friends would tell me that, because of Fatima, they had to go to church to pray for the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism!  Now I'm supposed to believe my ears were wrong & the prayers were for the conversion of Russia from communism. 

Orthodoc, I have to agree with you,  I went through the Catholic school system for 13 years.  We attended Mass nearly every morning at 7am after I turned 8 years old and we were always taught in religious studies classes that the prayers at the end of Mass were for the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.

Given the self-understanding of the Roman Catholic Church at that period prior to Vatican II, how could it be otherwise?  There was a genuine and profound belief that the world must be in obedience to the Holy Father in Rome.   By those lights Russia's conversion to Roman Catholicism was seen as the greatest blessing that God could bestow.

On a thread devoted to this topic of Fatima people asked for the source of my quotes on this topic but the thread is no longer accessible and so I should like to incorporate these references in this message to you.  The quotes totally support your position and are fully relevant to this thread.

1. In 1917, the Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

Reference:   The words of the Lady of Fatima are easy enough to find on many websites and in hundreds of books on Fatima.  Here they are on an EWTN website:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/FIRSTSAT.htm
 
See "The Third Apparition, July 13"

-oOo-

2. Now what does the Lady mean by the words "she  [Russia] will be converted?   Here is what Joaquin Alonso writes.  Fr Alonso is THE archivist of Fatima and has a 26 volume edition on Fatima to his credit.


 Father Joaquin Alonso, probably the top Fatima expert of the 20th Century. Father Alonso, who had many interviews with Sister Lucy, wrote in 1976:

". . . we should affirm that Lucia always thought that the 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian People to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church." [17]

Reference:   "La Verdad Sobre el Sacradoto de Fatima, Fatima sin mitos," Father Joaquin Alonso, (2nd edition, Ejercito Azul, Madrid, 1988) p. 78. English translation by Joseph Cain. [/b]

Original Spanish reads: ". . . podriamos decit que Lucia ha pensado siempre que "conversion" de Rusia no se entiende solo de un retorno de los pueblos de Rusia a la religion cristiano-ortodoxa, rechazando el afeismo marxista yateo de los, soviets, sino que se refiere pura y Ilanmente a la conversion total e integral du un retorno a la unica y verdadera Iglesia, la catolico-romana."

Note that the original Spanish is even more explicit than the English translation.  Russia's conversion is to the Roman Catholic Church ("Iglesia, la catolico-romana.")

-oOo-

3.  Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"    ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

Reference:   http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

See paragraph 11

-oOo-
 
4.  Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

Reference:   http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECUM.HTM

See Section II, the last paragraph of the section. 

-oOo-


In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

I hope that these references will be satisfactory to those who were asking for them.


 
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« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2009, 07:58:48 PM »

I don't think the Leonine prayers are forbidden. I think what Paul VI really did was lift the requirement that they be said.

This morning, at the traditional Latin Mass I attend at the Cathedral in Boston, Fr. O'Brien led us in praying these very prayers. I personally pray them for the intention of the "liberty and exaltation of holy Mother Church" (as the prayers say).

Looking in my 1962 Roman Missal (the Baronius edition, which is officially approved), it states the Leonine prayers as being "now optional."

As for what the "conversion of Russia" means, I don't think it is relevant now. If these prayers are ever made obligatory after Low Mass again, perhaps the Pope could make them for the intentions of the general struggle of Christianity against the cancer of secularism (which, I think, subsumes the previous intentions declared by Leo XIII and Pius XI, and is more relevant than ever today).
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« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2009, 08:28:36 PM »

As to the question of what Pius XI intended to do by offering the prayers for the "conversion of Russia," I tend to the view that he meant them chiefly for the liberation of Russia from atheistic Communism (a frequent target of strong condemnation by Pius XI and Pius XII especially).

If it were otherwise, why were the prayers not also for the conversion of other Orthodox countries like Greece and Romania? Were the Greeks and Romanians somehow less in need of conversion to Catholicism?

By the "conversion of Russia," I think it is plain that Pius XI meant by "Russia" the Soviet leaders and their collaborators, not the people. Remember what a shocking event October 1917 was---one of the major countries in the world and a devoutly Christian one at that, taken over by force and turned into an atheist empire. This dreadful victory by Satan was the real impetus for Pius XI's action, whatever some nuns in the 1950s thought.
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« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2009, 09:03:15 PM »

As to the question of what Pius XI intended to do by offering the prayers for the "conversion of Russia," I tend to the view that he meant them chiefly for the liberation of Russia from atheistic Communism (a frequent target of strong condemnation by Pius XI and Pius XII especially).

If it were otherwise, why were the prayers not also for the conversion of other Orthodox countries like Greece and Romania? Were the Greeks and Romanians somehow less in need of conversion to Catholicism?

By the "conversion of Russia," I think it is plain that Pius XI meant by "Russia" the Soviet leaders and their collaborators, not the people. Remember what a shocking event October 1917 was---one of the major countries in the world and a devoutly Christian one at that, taken over by force and turned into an atheist empire. This dreadful victory by Satan was the real impetus for Pius XI's action, whatever some nuns in the 1950s thought.

My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

If, the RCC has now changed her tune then what qualifies the apparition as reported by the three children in Portugal?

Many contradictions are not apparent and it is quite difficult to wade through this mess.  What is true and what is not true.

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« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2009, 09:38:53 PM »


My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

What do your grade school nuns' opinions about the effects of rosaries and novenas have anything to do with Pope Pius XI's intentions for the Leonine prayers? This is an illogical statement.

As for the nuns asking you to offer rosaries so non-Catholics could become Catholic, no harm in that, is there? If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then everybody should be Catholic. If the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, then those prayers clearly would fall on God's deaf ears.

So what is there to gripe about?

Joe, I should have more respect for you if you prayed for my conversion, because it meant you took your faith seriously.
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« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2009, 10:15:16 PM »


My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

What do your grade school nuns' opinions about the effects of rosaries and novenas have anything to do with Pope Pius XI's intentions for the Leonine prayers? This is an illogical statement.

As for the nuns asking you to offer rosaries so non-Catholics could become Catholic, no harm in that, is there? If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then everybody should be Catholic. If the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, then those prayers clearly would fall on God's deaf ears.

So what is there to gripe about?

Joe, I should have more respect for you if you prayed for my conversion, because it meant you took your faith seriously.

It had everything to do with the prayers that were recited over and over and over again.  Were were shown drawn pictures of starving people outside of Communist party restaurants wanting food or even scraps.  This made a very big impression on me.  I was told that (inspite of papal declarations which I was not aware of at this time) it was because they didnt have the advantage of the Roman Catholic church and her teachings.  At the time I was NEVER taught that Russia was a Religious state for more than a thousand years prior to the Communist revolution.  Their message came across as Russia had always been a pagan state and had to be converted to Roman Catholicism.  Dont blame me I was only a stupid kid being educated in the Roman Catholic church school system.

I now know that the babas or grandmothers in Russia where very instrumental in preseving Holy Orthodoxy in spite of the trials and persecutions that were going on.  Non-Catholics? The Holy Orthodox Church is Catholic in every way and has been in it's insception since the 10th century.  Many socalled Communists were Communist simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  Otherwise what can explain the resurgence of Holy Orthodoxy post Gorbachev?

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« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2009, 11:41:49 PM »


My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

What do your grade school nuns' opinions about the effects of rosaries and novenas have anything to do with Pope Pius XI's intentions for the Leonine prayers? This is an illogical statement.

As for the nuns asking you to offer rosaries so non-Catholics could become Catholic, no harm in that, is there? If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then everybody should be Catholic. If the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, then those prayers clearly would fall on God's deaf ears.

So what is there to gripe about?

Joe, I should have more respect for you if you prayed for my conversion, because it meant you took your faith seriously.

It had everything to do with the prayers that were recited over and over and over again.  Were were shown drawn pictures of starving people outside of Communist party restaurants wanting food or even scraps.  This made a very big impression on me.  I was told that (inspite of papal declarations which I was not aware of at this time) it was because they didnt have the advantage of the Roman Catholic church and her teachings.  At the time I was NEVER taught that Russia was a Religious state for more than a thousand years prior to the Communist revolution.  Their message came across as Russia had always been a pagan state and had to be converted to Roman Catholicism.  Dont blame me I was only a stupid kid being educated in the Roman Catholic church school system.

I now know that the babas or grandmothers in Russia where very instrumental in preseving Holy Orthodoxy in spite of the trials and persecutions that were going on.  Non-Catholics? The Holy Orthodox Church is Catholic in every way and has been in it's insception since the 10th century.  Many socalled Communists were Communist simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  Otherwise what can explain the resurgence of Holy Orthodoxy post Gorbachev?



Btw, Gorbachev's mother was always a regular Church goer, and had him baptized in the Stalin era.
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« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2009, 12:16:23 AM »


Btw, Gorbachev's mother was always a regular Church goer, and had him baptized in the Stalin era.

Perhaps that explains this:

Visiting the tomb of St. Francis...


As the Russian Orthodox Church spokesman said at the time, "He is still on his way to Christianity. If he arrives, we will welcome him."
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« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2009, 12:23:21 AM »

Quote
Btw, Gorbachev's mother was always a regular Church goer, and had him baptized in the Stalin era.

Mikhail Gorbachev wasn't the only one. Boris Yeltsin was baptised as a baby within months of his birth in 1931. His biography "Against the Grain" (co-written by Misha Glenny, one of the most respected foreign correspondents of the past generation, including a long stint with the BBC) gives an evocative, and, at times, humorous, account of his baptism. It should also be noted that both Raisa Gorbachova (wife of Mikhail) and Klavdia Yeltsina (mother of Boris) were given full Orthodox funerals after their deaths. Mme Gorbachova is buried at the Novodevichy monastery near Moscow.

It is also worth remembering that both Gorbachev and Yeltsin and their families endured deprivations under the early Soviet regime, as did countless others.
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« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2009, 06:13:01 PM »



2. Now what does the Lady mean by the words "she  [Russia] will be converted?   Here is what Joaquin Alonso writes.  Fr Alonso is THE archivist of Fatima and has a 26 volume edition on Fatima to his credit.


 Father Joaquin Alonso, probably the top Fatima expert of the 20th Century. Father Alonso, who had many interviews with Sister Lucy, wrote in 1976:

". . . we should affirm that Lucia always thought that the 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian People to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church." [17]

Reference:   "La Verdad Sobre el Sacradoto de Fatima, Fatima sin mitos," Father Joaquin Alonso, (2nd edition, Ejercito Azul, Madrid, 1988) p. 78. English translation by Joseph Cain. [/b]

Original Spanish reads: ". . . podriamos decit que Lucia ha pensado siempre que "conversion" de Rusia no se entiende solo de un retorno de los pueblos de Rusia a la religion cristiano-ortodoxa, rechazando el afeismo marxista yateo de los, soviets, sino que se refiere pura y Ilanmente a la conversion total e integral du un retorno a la unica y verdadera Iglesia, la catolico-romana."

Note that the original Spanish is even more explicit than the English translation.  Russia's conversion is to the Roman Catholic Church ("Iglesia, la catolico-romana.")

Fr. Ambrose,

Interesting how a search of the internet for Fr. Joaquin Alonso the first two sites lised are from a 1) website promoting Bayside apparitions denounced by the Catholic Church and 2) denounced and suspended priest Nicholas Gruner's Fatima Network site:

http://www.tldm.org/news7/ThirdSecretFatherAlonso.htm

http://www.fatima.org/thirdsecret/fralonso.asp

Who appointed Fr. Joaquin archivist?  He is cretainly not listed as such any publication of the Catholic Church I can find.  In the future please refrain from quoting the above as if it were statement made by someone with authority in the Catholic Church representing its teaching.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2009, 06:18:35 PM »

Many so called Communists were Communist simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  Otherwise what can explain the resurgence of Holy Orthodoxy post Gorbachev?

Before St. Constantine many so called Pagans were Pagans simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  The Church called them apostates and imposed a severe, sometimes lifetime, penance on them upon reconversion.  Nobody is arguing Orthodoxy died in Russia but a great many had to apostacize in order for what took place to take place.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2009, 07:03:29 PM »

Who appointed Fr. Joaquin archivist?  He is cretainly not listed as such any publication of the Catholic Church I can find.  In the future please refrain from quoting the above as if it were statement made by someone with authority in the Catholic Church representing its teaching.
A web search on Fr Alonso turns him up on hundreds of Catholic sites. 
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« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2009, 07:07:43 PM »

A web search on Fr Alonso turns him up on hundreds of Catholic sites. 
And as Deacon Lance points out, these "Catholic Sites" are websites of fringe groups, many of which are condemned by the Catholic Church.

Fr. Ambrose,

Interesting how a search of the internet for Fr. Joaquin Alonso the first two sites lised are from a 1) website promoting Bayside apparitions denounced by the Catholic Church and 2) denounced and suspended priest Nicholas Gruner's Fatima Network site:

http://www.tldm.org/news7/ThirdSecretFatherAlonso.htm

http://www.fatima.org/thirdsecret/fralonso.asp

Who appointed Fr. Joaquin archivist?  He is cretainly not listed as such any publication of the Catholic Church I can find.  In the future please refrain from quoting the above as if it were statement made by someone with authority in the Catholic Church representing its teaching.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2009, 07:40:24 PM »

And as Deacon Lance points out, these "Catholic Sites" are websites of fringe groups, many of which are condemned by the Catholic Church.


There is much about Fatima and its interpretation that is fringe.

Here is the Third Secret (from the Vatican website  http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html )

Do we know which Pope is going to be killed on a mountaintop with bullets and arrows, and many bishops, priests and nuns also?

 
CONGREGATION
FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH   

THE MESSAGE
OF FATIMA       

THIRD PART OF THE “SECRET”   
 
“J.M.J.

The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fatima, on 13 July 1917.

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

Tuy-3-1-1944”.   

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« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2009, 08:14:02 PM »

And as Deacon Lance points out, these "Catholic Sites" are websites of fringe groups, many of which are condemned by the Catholic Church.


There is much about Fatima and its interpretation that is fringe.

Here is the Third Secret (from the Vatican website  http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html )

Do we know which Pope is going to be killed on a mountaintop with bullets and arrows, and many bishops, priests and nuns also?

 
CONGREGATION
FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH   

THE MESSAGE
OF FATIMA       

THIRD PART OF THE “SECRET”   
 
“J.M.J.

The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fatima, on 13 July 1917.

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

Tuy-3-1-1944”.   



What makes this "fringe"? Is it any less "fringe" than a prophecy that the Tsar of Russia will take upon himself "the guilt of the Russian people" as though he were the Christ in some Latin understanding of soteriology?

Quote
In 1917 Metropolitan Macarius of Moscow, who alone in the Church's hierarchy had refused to accept the Provisional Government because of his oath of allegiance to the Tsar, had the following revelation in a series of dreams: "I saw a field. The Saviour was walking along a path. I went after Him, crying,

"'Lord, I am following you!'

"Finally we approached an immense arch adorned with stars. At the threshold of the arch the Saviour turned to me and said again:

"'Follow me!'

And He went into a wondrous garden, and I remained at the threshold and awoke. Soon I fell asleep again and saw myself standing in the same arch, and with the Saviour stood Tsar Nicholas. The Saviour said to the Tsar:

"'You see in My hands two cups: one which is bitter for your people and the other sweet for you.'

"The Tsar fell to his knees and for a long time begged the Lord to allow him to drink the bitter cup together with his people. The Lord did not agree for a long time, but the Tsar begged importunately. Then the Saviour drew out of the bitter cup a large glowing coal and laid it in the palm of the Tsar's hand. The Tsar began to move the coal from hand to hand and at the same time his body began to grow light, until it had become completely bright, like some radiant spirit. At this I again woke up. Falling asleep yet again, I saw an immense field covered with flowers. In the middle of the field stood the Tsar, surrounded by a multitude of people, and with his hands he was distributing manna to them. An invisible voice said at this moment:

"'The Tsar has taken the guilt of the Russian people upon himself, and the Russian people is forgiven.'" Source
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 08:14:58 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: August 02, 2009, 04:40:10 PM »

Quote
My understanding of Fatima is that the "Third Prophecy" remains secret knowledge for the Catholic Hierarchy.  One of the "Prophecies" involves the Consecration of Russia (e.g. converting Russia to Catholicism) in a bid to weaken Eastern Orthodoxy.  Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.  If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

Request to Holy Father to Consecrate Russia

Fatima.org is run by a renegade priest named Father Nicholas Gruner. he does not speak for the Church, nor would I consider him a legitimate spokesman for the Fatima movement, although his views are very much in line with anti-Vatican II traditionalists. Oddly enough, it was partly through him that I was exposed to the Byzantine Rite, when one of the conventions he organized in London, Ontario, was preceded by a Divine Liturgy at a local Ukrainian-rite Catholic church. "I wish the Roman rite were like this..."
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 04:40:44 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: August 12, 2009, 04:57:47 PM »

so did the Vatican expect that Russia would be converted to Latin rite or Eastern rite Catholicism?  No one can be serious in telling me that the RCC expects Russia to cease practicing the Orthodox form of Christianity for theirs (especially with all the bad blood between them and the Poles)?

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don't even go there!


« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2010, 10:40:59 PM »

I always thought, and was taught, that the conversion was meant to be of the atheists who were in the process of taking over Russia, not the good Christian people who were their targets.
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