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Author Topic: Fatima  (Read 17238 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2002, 12:08:41 PM »

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how does accepting Roman Catholic apparitions become a de facto acceptance of the branch theory "or worse"?  

By saying thier Marian Apparations are valid it carries with it the idea that the rest of the RCC is valid.  The worse is that the apparitions are big on the RCC concept of purgatory (the older Trent days purgatory, not the purgatory light of today), and other bits and pieces of RC theology and spiritualuty that are not Orthodox.  Also there seems to be mass prelest, which should be avoided at all costs, IMO.

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In Eastern Orthodoxy, is there a sense that one must accept such "private revelations", if their source is the Holy Mountain?  If one does not believe in this or that or in all miraculous icons, is this not correct in some way?  What about phenomena occurring elsewhere?  Must an Eastern Orthodox Christian accept the miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem, for example?  

No, of course not.  I was simply offering that there are solidly Orthodox apparitions out there and that it would be better to look to those than ones outside the church.  The dangers of prelest and un-Ortodox theology are considerably less.

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What about miraculous phenomena occurring within the sphere of the Oriental Orthodox Churches?  I'm curious as to what you meant by your point above...    

Sorry, I don't know much about the Oriental Orthodox Churches.  My spiritual Father has told their Christology is in line with ours (the differences mainly being semantics), soI don't see why they wouldn't have true miracles from the Lord.

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« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2002, 12:14:40 PM »

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As for the Holy Mountain, one can be orthodox but loony. (Having all one's marbles isn't necessary for salvation!) For all its good points - the holiness, the medieval mindset and society as a living reality - at least some of what's on Athos falls into that, I think - the monks only in communion with four other people, etc.

I guess they are fools for Christ in the eyes of this world.  I honestly do not understand what people have against the Holy Montain.
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« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2002, 12:21:36 PM »

Regarding the IC and free will, I'd say that Mary was like Eve, sinless, immaculate, only in Mary's case made so retroactively by Christ's grace. She had a choice at the Annunciation, just like Eve did in the garden. Free will. And Mary's fiat - 'be it done unto me according to Thy word' - was the choice that made the Incarnation possible in her.

Would you understand the IC in this manner: a retroactive baptism?  As the Forerunner was sanctified in the womb, the Mother of God was sactified at the first moment of conception.  I cannot see the impact on free will.  The fiat--accomplished by none other than St. Mary's free will--is the signature of our salvation in all the Apostolic Christian traditions.

My 2 hyperinflated liras.

In IC XC
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« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2002, 12:37:51 PM »

Samer,

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Would you understand the IC in this manner: a retroactive baptism?  As the Forerunner was sanctified in the womb, the Mother of God was sactified at the first moment of conception.  I cannot see the impact on free will.  The fiat--accomplished by none other than St. Mary's free will--is the signature of our salvation in all the Apostolic Christian traditions.

Exactly!
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2002, 12:43:30 PM »

[Regarding the IC and free will, I'd say that Mary was like Eve, sinless, immaculate, ]

Eve was sinless?Huh??  Then why was she banished from the Garden of Eden?  If God had created her to be sinless she would have been just that.  And as such would not have disobeyed him.
Your comment makes no sense to me.  Please explain further.

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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2002, 12:43:35 PM »

My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lords Immaculate Conception.  For me, the belief that Mary, born as any other normal human is born with original sin, CHOSE NOT to sin and that makes Her more Blessed in my eyes.  Our Blessed Mother is the epitomy of obedience and Joachim and Anna must have done their jobs as parents exceedingly well.  For Mary to have been sanctified prior to the Our Lord's Immaculate Conception can be left for others to argue.  I have to admire anyone who especially Her who could have sinned but chose not to.  Smiley

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« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2002, 12:47:11 PM »

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Eve was sinless?Huh??  Then why was she banished from the Garden of Eden? ...Your comment makes no sense to me.  Please explain further.

She was sinless pre-fall.

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If God had created her to be sinless she would have been just that.  And as such would not have disobeyed him.

That doesn't work because then Eve wouldn't have had free will. One can be sinless but have choice.

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My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lord's Immaculate Conception

Sorry, but that view, sometimes presented as the Eastern Orthodox answer to the IC, doesn't fly. Gabriel said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.'
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« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2002, 01:11:33 PM »

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Ofcourse She was full of grace, She didnt sin. Dont be sorry, thats what I believe and I respect your belief.  Do you believe in the IC of Mary?

JoeS


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My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lord's Immaculate Conception

Sorry, but that view, sometimes presented as the Eastern Orthodox answer to the IC, doesn't fly. Gabriel said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.'
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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2002, 01:13:36 PM »

OK, JoeS, I understand that interpretation ('full of grace' meaning 'never actually sinned').

The stuff about the IC being bound up with the peculiarly Latin view of original sin really goes over my head. I believe she was immaculate with free will.
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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2002, 07:11:29 PM »

Dear Friends in Christ,

I personally do not accept the Fatima revelation. In 1951 Pius XII announced that the VM had told him:"You will consecrate Russia to me".  While we must be grateful to the Pontiff for his war on communism, we did not need the RCC to solve our spiritual problems.  As the Metropolitan of Mt Lebanon in 1947? reported: The Mother of God told me she saved Russia through the prayers of her saints, especially St Serafim of Vyristsa.  So on the western side, the RCC guided by the Theotokos enlists the NAZI party (German Catholicis were told to vote for it) to attack Russia, while the Theotokos of the Orthodox Church defends Russia from the NAZIs.

Again the devil appears in Mary's clothes at Meji...suddenly disappears at returns as the Theotokos, who tells her seer to ignore what she saw.  This was simply a technical hitch (backstage in Hell).

Sorry to offend my RC friends. I studied at a RC College, loved those nuns!  But Orthodoxy is the fullness of faith, the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

I shall be posting an article on modern day prelest on my website www.fatherserafim.info in a couple of days.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim
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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2002, 07:11:53 PM »

My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lords Immaculate Conception. JoeS

The RC belief called the "Immaculate Conception" is regarding the coneception in the womb of St. Ann of the Theotokos.  In other words, how the Virghin Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne.

The miraculous way in which Our Lord was conceived and born is called the Virgin Birth in Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
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« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2002, 10:05:40 AM »

Fr Serafim,

-æ-+-¦-¦-+-ü-+-+-¦-+-é-¦. Respectfully read and acknowledged. As you know, people in the Catholic Church aren't required to believe in F+ítima (or any apparition) either. ISTM a more Orthodox view of the apostolic ministry would have the first bishop (patriarch, metropolitan) of an autocephalous Church consecrate his own country, rather than a foreign patriarch of another rite (and, of course, outside the present Orthodox communion). The Catholic Church, of course, sees it differently (or claims to), with the Pope of Rome wearing two hats, as head of the Roman Church and rite and as vicar of Christ, and in the latter role a consecration of any country on earth would be seen as appropriate. Whether that separation of roles is real and whether the common man thinks that way (my experience is no, he doesn't) are other matters.

Private recognition of apparitions outside the Orthodox Church doesn't necessarily endorse the Catholic view of the church, simply that God created the visible church but isn't limited to it - He is God, He is sovereign and can work wherever. As long as the content of the messages aren't formally heretical (condemned in scripture or by the councils).

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So on the western side, the RCC guided by the Theotokos enlists the NAZI party (German Catholicis were told to vote for it) to attack Russia, while the Theotokos of the Orthodox Church defends Russia from the NAZIs.

With all due respect, that sounds like Bolshevik propaganda - subservient Metropolitan Sergius backing the Soviet war effort and Stalin therefore giving the Russian Church a break and even some official clout.

Plenty of people in the Russias - Ukrainians (survivors of Soviet starvation in the 1930s), Byelorussians and perhaps even Great Russians - welcomed the Germans as liberators. Not that the Nazis were right, and yes, I know they despised Slavs, but understandable. I've met two Ukrainians, one Catholic and one Orthodox (yes, and Russian-speaking to boot), who served in the German army defending their home against the Soviets, and I don't blame them. Theirs was a just war. Who again were the 'good guys' or 'bad guys'?

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Again the devil appears in Mary's clothes at Meji...suddenly disappears at returns as the Theotokos, who tells her seer to ignore what she saw.  This was simply a technical hitch (backstage in Hell).

If you are referring to Medjugorje, most interesting and I agree - as they say in the States, it's a $3 bill.
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« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2002, 10:29:22 AM »

Yes, I know that, I was only trying to make the point that the only (excuse the expression) IC was Our Lord's.  The Virgin Birth is the accepted term. Cool
JoeS

My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lords Immaculate Conception. JoeS

The RC belief called the "Immaculate Conception" is regarding the coneception in the womb of St. Ann of the Theotokos.  In other words, how the Virghin Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne.

The miraculous way in which Our Lord was conceived and born is called the Virgin Birth in Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  
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« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2002, 03:01:59 PM »

Dear Serge,
Bog blagoslovit!

Yes it does sound like Bolshevik propaganda and was probably used by them to justify the defence of Russia.  Interestingly enough Elder Savva of Pskov blessed young Orthodox to serve in the Red Army, because they were defending their fatherland. I am no admirer of current MP management, but the defence of Russia is a concept which democrats worldwide do not seem to understand.  Also I do believe that Russia will play a signficant role in the preservation of Orthodoxy.  I risk being accused of messianism - third Rome and all that stuff but I believe that the RCC is a threat to Orthodoxy. To quote: "His Holiness (Pius XII) thinks that even these crimes and this blood will one day be of service if it is going to be possible, when the wave of irreligion has passed, to attempt a Catholic evangelization in Russia.  Orthodoxy no longer has any deep rooted life; its end as the official religion offers possibilities which would never have existed so long as a Tsar, Protector of the Church, continued to reign".  Cardinal Monti.

Quite recently Bishop Yuri (Yurchyk) of Donetsk, Ukraine indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God (Fatima) to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima - that "Russia will be converted".  On 24th October, 2002, Bishop Yuri joined the RCC.


The love of God for the RC, who is leading a pious life and who is probably not aware of the political dimension of the Vatican, is not in question.  God judges as He wishes.

The boundaries of the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ have been clearly defined by the Ecumenical Councils.  But again God judges as he wishes.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim
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« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2002, 03:21:42 PM »

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As for the Holy Mountain, one can be orthodox but loony. (Having all one's marbles isn't necessary for salvation!) For all its good points - the holiness, the medieval mindset and society as a living reality - at least some of what's on Athos falls into that, I think - the monks only in communion with four other people, etc.

I guess they are fools for Christ in the eyes of this world.  I honestly do not understand what people have against the Holy Montain.  

I imagine the Fathers of the Holy Mountain have their own--and genuinely apostolic--definition of what is 'looney' or 'non-looney.'

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« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2002, 04:05:09 PM »

Thank you, Father.

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the defence of Russia is a concept which democrats worldwide do not seem to understand.  

I think I can appreciate it but also defend the decision of those in the Russias (including recently invaded former Polish Ukraine) who defended their homes against the Soviets.

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Also I do believe that Russia will play a signficant role in the preservation of Orthodoxy.

You may be right!

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I risk being accused of messianism - third Rome and all that stuff but I believe that the RCC is a threat to Orthodoxy.

Metropolitan Anthony (Bloom) in London and many others agree with you.

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To quote: "His Holiness (Pius XII) thinks that even these crimes and this blood will one day be of service if it is going to be possible, when the wave of irreligion has passed, to attempt a Catholic evangelization in Russia.  Orthodoxy no longer has any deep rooted life; its end as the official religion offers possibilities which would never have existed so long as a Tsar, Protector of the Church, continued to reign".  Cardinal Monti.

I know that post-Russian Revolution there have been Catholic churchmen, such as Fr/Bishop Michel d'Herbigny, who thought this way, but it contradicts AFAIK the worldview of the traditional, pre-Vatican II Popes, who saw the monarchies of Christian Europe as the safeguard of Christendom - the monarchies, including the tsardom, that the great evil known now as WWI destroyed.

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Quite recently Bishop Yuri (Yurchyk) of Donetsk, Ukraine indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God (Fatima) to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima - that "Russia will be converted".  On 24th October, 2002, Bishop Yuri joined the RCC.

This has been covered here before. To sum up, Bishop Yuri wasn't an Orthodox bishop - he belonged to the uncanonical Kiev Patriarchate under Filaret. And he didn't join the Catholic Church, but a splinter group from it that says there's been no Pope since 1958. In other words, a not-really-Orthodox bishop became a not-really-Catholic bishop.
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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2002, 07:36:33 PM »

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I imagine the Fathers of the Holy Mountain have their own--and genuinely apostolic--definition of what is 'looney' or 'non-looney.'

Indeed.  I have the blessing of living close to a monastery that from the accounts of people who have been to the Holy Mountain is just like the Holy Mountain (except women pilgrims are there as well).  Some friends and I heading down there for liturgy at 2 AM tomorrow...it is always such a blessed place to visit.  Here is their webpage http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/
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« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2002, 03:57:11 PM »

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Indeed.  I have the blessing of living close to a monastery that from the accounts of people who have been to the Holy Mountain is just like the Holy Mountain (except women pilgrims are there as well).  Some friends and I heading down there for liturgy at 2 AM tomorrow...it is always such a blessed place to visit.  Here is their webpage http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/

You are very fortunate to live so close to a monastery such as that.  I wish I lived close to one. Sad
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« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2002, 08:30:16 PM »

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Indeed.  I have the blessing of living close to a monastery that from the accounts of people who have been to the Holy Mountain is just like the Holy Mountain (except women pilgrims are there as well).  Some friends and I heading down there for liturgy at 2 AM tomorrow...it is always such a blessed place to visit.  Here is their webpage http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/

You are very fortunate to live so close to a monastery such as that.  I wish I lived close to one. Sad

I agree with you.  So do I.   The monastery in Arizona, St. Anthony's, founded by the Elder Ephraim, to which Sinjinsmythe refers, enjoys good official standing within the GOA and is solidly Orthodox.  HTM in Brookline, OTOH, belonging to the HOCNA, comes under Serge's bann, despite the good spiritual experiences that both Gregory and I have had there.   Sad   The only other Orthodox monastery I can think of in this five-state New England area is in Richford, VT, but it belongs to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Vasilopoulis.  Would that one be okay, Serge?   Grin  Then there's the controversial New Skete Monastery (OCA) across the Vermont State line in Cambridge, NY, of course.  But, it's still "canonical," Serge and Nicholas, even with its frescoes of Dr. Michael Ramsey, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI, and Martin Luther King Jr. mixed indiscriminately with portraits of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Patriarch Athenagoras I, Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris and Ravensbruck, and Fr. Alexander Men', all together sharing space as equals in the upper walls of the nave of the Temple of the Holy Wisdom amidst experimental liturgical services that border more on the Novus Ordo Latin than anything distinctly Byzantine Orthodox.  But at least the dogs they train are no longer permitted to join the New Skete Monks, Nuns and Companions in church for their liturgical worship there.

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« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2002, 08:55:58 PM »

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But, it's still "canonical," Serge and Nicholas, even with its frescoes of Dr. Michael Ramsey, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI, and Martin Luther King Jr. mixed indiscriminately with portraits of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Patriarch Athenagoras I, Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris and Ravensbruck, and Fr. Alexander Men', all together sharing space as equals in the upper walls of the nave of the Temple of the Holy Wisdom amidst experimental liturgical services that border on the Latin.  But at least the dogs are no longer permitted to join the New Skete Monks, Nuns and Companions in their liturgical worship in church there.

After that description of New Skete, how can they still be considered 'canonical' especially with frescoes of Doris Day??? Huh  They don't sound too Orthodox to me.   The last thing we need is a monastery that borders on being looney.  I don't think the ROCOR people would be too happy with them.
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« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2002, 11:42:54 PM »

Sinjin, that's Dorothy Day the Catholic Social Justice worker, not Doris Day the actress.  Read up on her sometime.  Fascinating woman.
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« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2002, 11:27:12 AM »

[They don't sound too Orthodox to me.  The last thing we need is a monastery that borders on being looney.  I don't think the ROCOR people would be too happy with them.]

Neither are some of us in the OCA.

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« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2002, 11:31:16 AM »

Sinjin, that's Dorothy Day the Catholic Social Justice worker, not Doris Day the actress.  Read up on her sometime.  Fascinating woman.  
Que sera sera! Cheesy

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« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2002, 12:54:03 AM »

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I agree with you.  So do I.  The monastery in Arizona, St. Anthony's, founded by the Elder Ephraim, to which Sinjinsmythe refers, enjoys good official standing within the GOA and is solidly Orthodox.  

I spent from the midnight hours to Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great there today.  It is so awsome.  The Greek is a bit much at times, but I am learning.  It is worth the hour drive just to recieve a blessing from Elder Ephraim, IMO.  Since this monastery and a few other like minded priests and people were my only expierence with the GOA, I was a little un-believing of claims that it is modernist.  If you hit the right parts this (the GOA) really is an awsome jurisdiction.
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« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2008, 07:37:46 AM »

What does Orthodoxy think about the visions of Fatima in which it was claimed that the Virgin Mary was pleading for people to do penance for their sins and the sins of the whole world? How does Orthodoxy describe the personality of Mary?
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« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2008, 02:22:58 PM »

As far as i know ,Jesus Christ has done it all for us , penance is to improve our selfs i never heard of pleasing or appeasing God If we love God we try to do his will,, though we fall short....SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0MOST BLESSED LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS  CHRIST SON OF GOD HAVE MERCY UPON US  SINNER"S.......SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0ГОСПОДЕ ИСУС ХРИСТОС БОГ НАШ СМИЛУЈСЕ НА НАС ГРЕШНЕ АМИН...SmileyCentral.com" border="0 I dont believe in Fatima..SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2008, 02:29:50 PM »

I didn't grow up as a Roman Catholic, so never paid much attention to Fatima. For the most part, I've rarely heard it being discussed by Orthodox people.
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« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2008, 02:58:06 PM »

so never paid much attention to Fatima. For the most part, I've rarely heard it being discussed by Orthodox people.

My understanding of Fatima is that the "Third Prophecy" remains secret knowledge for the Catholic Hierarchy.  One of the "Prophecies" involves the Consecration of Russia (e.g. converting Russia to Catholicism) in a bid to weaken Eastern Orthodoxy.  Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.  If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

Request to Holy Father to Consecrate Russia
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« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2008, 03:09:41 PM »

My understanding of Fatima is that the "Third Prophecy" remains secret knowledge for the Catholic Hierarchy.  One of the "Prophecies" involves the Consecration of Russia (e.g. converting Russia to Catholicism) in a bid to weaken Eastern Orthodoxy.  Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.  If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

Request to Holy Father to Consecrate Russia

 Shocked Shocked Shocked You don't say!?!
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« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2008, 05:00:09 PM »

This was actually one of the very first things we discussed here at OCnet. I'll merge this into that thread so that you will have the benefit of reading what others have to say about it.
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« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2008, 06:07:45 PM »

Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.
I don't see get it.  How is such a thing as the Fatima apparition Gnosticism?
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« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2008, 07:02:49 PM »

I don't see get it.  How is such a thing as the Fatima apparition Gnosticism?

If top Hierarchs of the Roman Catholic Church have kept the 3rd relevation of Fatima a secret, would that count as "secret knowledge" not known to everybody and the definition of Gnosticism?

From the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia:

Gnosticism - A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity, held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and the whole universe a depravation of the Deity, and taught the ultimate end of all being to be the overcoming of the grossness of matter and the return to the Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by the appearance of some God-sent Saviour.

The consecration of Russia would count as a return to the Parent-Spirit.
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« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2008, 07:05:18 PM »

I don't see get it.  How is such a thing as the Fatima apparition Gnosticism?

Fatima consists of more than the supposed apparitions. The purported appartions are long gone, the locutions are alive and well.

Gnosis = esoteric spiritual knowledge available through direct experience.
Fatima locutions = secret 'knowledge' (message) imparted directly to (insert 'visionary' here), and in this instance, the 'secrets' are entrusted to the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
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« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2008, 08:38:37 PM »

Quote
If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

How does it do that? It seems to somewhat support Catholicism because one of the children claimed that Russia would be consecrated to Mary's "Immaculate Heart"....
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« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2008, 09:41:40 PM »

How does it do that? It seems to somewhat support Catholicism because one of the children claimed that Russia would be consecrated to Mary's "Immaculate Heart"....

The fall of Roman Catholicism is represented by the apocalyptic imagery of Popes and other Hierarchs being gunned down in front of a huge cross on top of a mountain, which was listed in the Fatima Prophecy.

Christ was crucified on top of a hill (Golgotha) except He rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven and sent down the Holy Spirit to the 12 Apostles on Pentecost.  The apocalyptic imagery does not sound like anything embraced by the Holy Trinity which is why the Church does not have readings from the Book of Revelations.  Yet, the Roman Catholics have been quoted as saying that Fatima's 3rd Prophecy is a rehash of the middle 13 chapters of Revelations.  Hence, while the Roman Catholic Church is free to believe in anything, the Orthodox position both doesn't change and doesn't have any opinions on Fatima.
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« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2008, 11:16:21 PM »



Non of this fatima stuff  Makes sense ......Huh??
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« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2008, 01:08:06 PM »


Non of this fatima stuff  Makes sense ......Huh??

In my opinion it makes sense primarily as a private vision that was granted to the children - Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta.  In particular, Lucia seems to have been most affected by what she saw, and wound up becoming a contemplative nun.

There are a couple of books out now consisting of her spiritual diaries - they're actually quite moving - simple and devout.  She reminded me quite a bit of St. Therese of Liseux - if you've ever read her "Story of a Soul" you know what I mean.
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« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2008, 01:35:56 PM »

In my opinion it makes sense primarily as a private vision that was granted to the children - Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta.  In particular, Lucia seems to have been most affected by what she saw, and wound up becoming a contemplative nun.

There are a couple of books out now consisting of her spiritual diaries - they're actually quite moving - simple and devout.  She reminded me quite a bit of St. Therese of Liseux - if you've ever read her "Story of a Soul" you know what I mean.

Just an FYI,The other two children died as children, only Lucia survived to adulthood. Those who knew the visionaries stated that the two children who died had the greater belief. It is important to note that Lucia did not disavow the visions. I was advised that somewhere in her latter part of her life, she actually noted that she believed that the resurrection of the Orthodox Church in Russia was due to the intervention of the Virgin Mary as promised in the vision and was the fulfillment of the vision and the prophecy (this is hearsay, I do not have a printed quotation to cite). This is interesting in view of the time of the visions and the relationship of the visions in response to the rise of Bolshevikism in Russia.

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« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2008, 12:38:35 AM »

Split from Many residents of Tskhinvali saw the Holy Virgin during the shelling.

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I know this is going to turn into another thread, but...


Why not?  Especially when these visions are being reported by members of the "True" Orthodox Church with a mission church in South Ossetia.

People have had fun beating up Roman Catholicism for the past 25 years.  People are now discovering something which has continued to exist after being beaten up for 2,000 years.

We're not having fun beating up the Roman Catholic Church. We're defending the truths of the Orthodox church. If the Fatima visions were, in fact, from the Virgin Mary, and there was such a thing as Her "Immaculate Heart", then why would the Orthodox Church, which seems to place no pricetag on truth, continue to disbelieve in that dogma of the Catholic Church? That's why I think comparison of these two events is not on equal ground.
As for the continuing existence of the RCC after 2,000 years--look at Hinduism. It has survived for even longer, maybe not completely in its present form, but that doesn't mean Hinduism is completely correct. This is also why I feel a comparison between these two events is not on par with Truth.
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« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2008, 02:04:41 AM »

Fatima can't be compared with this ,,,this one in Georgia didn't preach false doctine imaculate heart or imaculate conception it didn't  speak at all from what i read and understood ...SmileyCentral.com" border="0many people seen this one all educated levels  not just  some uneducated countrybumkins children like fatima or lourds....
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« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2008, 05:15:04 AM »

^^ Myrrh23, the scandals of the Roman Catholic Church during the last 25 years have resulted in major financial and spiritual damage.  Hinduism hasn't had the same scandals as Roman Catholicism or any other Chrisitan faith.  Fatima was used to predict WW I, WW II and Communism - major geopolitical events.  My comments also implied that the Orthodox Church is now on the bullseye of people who think they can destroy her once and for all because the resolve of her adherents has been weakened by secularism (e.g. young people not attending Church, interfaith marriage, etc.)

We didn't need some religious phantom to predict all of those things. It's odd that you write that Fatima was used to predict WWI, since the visions were reportedly seen in 1917-- a year before the end of WWI, which started in 1914. As for predicting the end of the war, I think studying the progression of the war up to that point can tell us what would have happened. Although I know it didn't, if the apparition had predicted the start of WW1, we wouldn't need that, either. I'm sure there were many people living at that time who saw how aggressive the nations of the world were against each other with all their political pacts of alliance. It's like, if I cash a bad check, I know what's going to eventually happen to me. It's the same line of reasoning...
Also, seeing how the rest of the world treated Germany following the Great War, did we really need a religious ghost predicting that Germany would lash out in another World War like a cornered dog?
As for the prediction of Communism is Russia, the Marxist idea of Communism had gained many adherents, especially among the Russian
revolutionary intelligentsia, decades before the appearances of this apparition. The Russian Monarchy, like many monarchies before it, had its head stuck up its butt. The world didn't need an apparition to show what we little people do to kings and queens who get too high on their horses.

Again, we shouldn't put as much credibility to Fatima as the apparition in the news article because of what it preaches, and it preaches something contrary to the Truth of the Orthodox Church, especially since the Ghost wished Orthodox Russia to be "consecrated" to some "Immaculate Heart". I don't believe our Mother would not only insult Russia like that, but draw attention away from Jesus Christ. Smiley


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« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2008, 08:24:11 AM »



Was it Fatima where the Theotokos was supposed to have replied to the children when they asked her who she was - "I am the Immaculate Conception"?  If so, that in itself should show the fallacy of this so called appearance.  It's amazing how things change.  I was brought up in the 50's where every Friday my Roman Catholic friends would tell me that, because of Fatima, they had to go to church to pray for the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism!  Now I'm supposed to believe my ears were wrong & the prayers were for the conversion of Russia from communism.  In fact, now I'm also being told there is no such thing as the ROMAN Catholic Church.  To call it such is insulting.  It's just supposed to now be the Catholic Church.  How am I supposed to distinguish the Catholicity of my church from theirs [to indicate we Orthodox never left the Catholic Church as they claim] if I'm no longer supposed to use the term Roman Catholic?  Go figure!  And why should I be required to abide by rules or changes made in a church I do not belong to or believe in?

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« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2008, 09:55:41 AM »


Was it Fatima where the Theotokos was supposed to have replied to the children when they asked her who she was - "I am the Immaculate Conception"? 

Nah, that was Lourdes, with a girl named Bernadette Soubirous. Apparently, the image told her that when the doctrine was only newly approved for belief.
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« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2008, 12:00:32 PM »

Nah, that was Lourdes, with a girl named Bernadette Soubirous. Apparently, the image told her that when the doctrine was only newly approved for belief.

On another forum a Roman Catholic once asked me:

"Can you name one doctrine in the Catholic Church that has its basis in a vision or apparition?"

To which I replied:

"Immaculate Conception... oh wait - Lourdes came shortly after that innovation was announced... What're the odds of that coincidence..." 
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« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2008, 12:56:32 PM »

On another forum a Roman Catholic once asked me:

"Can you name one doctrine in the Catholic Church that has its basis in a vision or apparition?"

To which I replied:

"Immaculate Conception... oh wait - Lourdes came shortly after that innovation was announced... What're the odds of that coincidence..." 


Not to go too off topic and nit-pick, but the Immaculate Conception was doctrine well before Lourdes, just not dogma (the feast was established by Pope Sixtus IV).  It wasn't until Ineffabilis Deus where it was established as Church dogma, centuries after the Feat date was promulgated.  Roman Catholics were free to believe or not believe in (and challenge) the Immaculate Conception, but the belief was becoming more popular and common with Roman Catholics, which was paramount in it being declared a Feast Day.
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