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Author Topic: Fatima  (Read 17634 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robert
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« on: December 16, 2002, 10:24:37 AM »

Hi Friends!

I haven't posted a potstirrer in awhile, so here it goes. Don't give me any flak for it!


What do you personally believe regarding the apparitions that appeared at Fatima, Portugal?

When I say apparition, I say the apparitions themselves, not the varying interpretations that go along with them.

If you care to add your personal interpretation if you have one, please go ahead.


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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2002, 10:33:19 AM »

As my site says in the changing-text script for Oct. 13, F+ítima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2002, 01:45:32 PM »

The Guiness Book of World Records 2 or 3 years ago listed the event of Fatima as the "largest religious experience" ever recorded.  They mentioned that 70,000 people, not just Catholics, witnessed the Miracle of the Sun.

I think Fatima, just like any apparition, should serve as a warning to us that we need to convert ourselves and our nations to Christ.

All the other stuff associated with apparitions are like dessert--good perhaps but not necessary.  I don't care if the sun moved; I care that the Mother of God had something to say.

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2002, 02:04:04 PM »

If "the sun had moved" no one would have survived to record the event. Mass hysteria/delusion is common among primitive minded people.

However, I would agree that the faith message is more than inspiring.

Jude
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2002, 02:25:24 PM »

It was also recorded that Russian would be converted to over to the Blessed Mother's "Immaculate Heart".  Is this Orthodox? Huh

JoeS

As my site says in the changing-text script for Oct. 13, F+ítima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2002, 03:20:09 PM »

[As my site says in the changing-text script for Oct. 13, F+ítima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.]

Then how come in the fifties when I was still a kid all my Roman Catholic friends had to attend services to pray for the conversion of Russia TO ROMAN CATHOLICISM?

You mean on all those Friday services they were praying for the wrong thing?  

Orthodoc

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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2002, 03:32:00 PM »

What does Orthodoxy say about apparitions like Fatima and Lourdes? Are they merely things that one can believe personally, or are they forbidden? Also, what are some popular apparitions in Orthodoxy? Must they be "approved" by the Church as the Vatican does? Thanks.

Matt
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2002, 03:49:35 PM »

If "the sun had moved" no one would have survived to record the event. Mass hysteria/delusion is common among primitive minded people.

However, I would agree that the faith message is more than inspiring.

Jude

Primitive-minded? So a group of 70,000--including atheists-- people in *1917* in a Western European Country were "primitive-minded"?  Hardly.

If God wants to move the sun, or at least make it *appear* to move, he can do it without everyone dying off!

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2002, 03:49:44 PM »

Orthodoc: because they wrongly thought all Russians were Communists?

Matt, I'm no expert but privately one can venerate anyone. As Lourdes and F+ítima didn't involve Orthodox people, commemorating such in church is out of the question. Also, apparitions seem to be a Western phenomenon. Miraculous icons, while rare, are commoner in the East. My guess is the Orthodox process of approving such things is less stringent that similar ones in the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2002, 03:50:42 PM »

It was also recorded that Russian would be converted to over to the Blessed Mother's "Immaculate Heart".  Is this Orthodox? Huh

JoeS

As my site says in the changing-text script for Oct. 13, F+ítima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.

Yes, because Russia did need to be converted--from communism.  Whatever *later* generations interpreted that to mean does not affect what the message was about, which was that Russia would fall to godless forces and that we should pray for its liberation.

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2002, 03:53:08 PM »

[As my site says in the changing-text script for Oct. 13, F+ítima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.]

Then how come in the fifties when I was still a kid all my Roman Catholic friends had to attend services to pray for the conversion of Russia TO ROMAN CATHOLICISM?

You mean on all those Friday services they were praying for the wrong thing?  

Orthodoc

Yep.  The apparition had to do with the conversion of Russia from communism.  It was remarkable because 1) communism had not yet occured in Russia (it would come later that year) and 2) young shepherd children in Portugal got the message.

The mindset of Roman Catholics in the 1950's was that "Orthodox Christian = schismatic" so it's only natural that they assumed they should be praying for Russia's conversion to Roman Catholicism.  However, the apparition suggested that Russia would need deliverance from the godless ones, not from the Orthodox.

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2002, 05:53:04 PM »

If "the sun had moved" no one would have survived to record the event. Mass hysteria/delusion is common among primitive minded people.

However, I would agree that the faith message is more than inspiring.

Jude
Give me a break dude, you sound like you have a superiority complex.

If you're implying western europeans are primitive, you better go back to school. I hope you retract your statement.

Bobby
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2002, 06:02:04 PM »

I agree with Anastasios entirely on the point. Having read a lot of research on Fatima, especially from atheists who later converted to Roman Catholicism, you start to see something remarkable about what went on in Portugal.

As such, I personally believe in the occurances at Fatima, not the conversion of Russia to Catholicism, but the deliverance of Russia from Communism.

What if the USSR had not fallen, and had instead spread across Europe? It is obvious that communism is the epitomie of evil. It sought to crush out all life, individuality, faith, and most importantly God, from every aspect of being. Either way, it's downfall can only be attributed to complete reliance and help from above.

Bobby
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2002, 06:08:08 PM »


[Also, what are some popular apparitions in Orthodoxy? ]

How about the appearance of the 'Mother of God' at Pochaev where her footprint still is visible?

http://www.oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=180

There are no written records of the establishment and early history of the Pochaev Monastery. In accordance with local historical tradition, however, the beautiful sub-Carpathian wilderness where the monastery is situated was first settled by several disciples of Saint Methodius, Enlightener of the Slavs [+855 AD], towards the end of the ninth century. Several centuries later, during the Mongol invasion of Russia, two monks from the Kiev Caves Monastery settled in the area after the Mongols had sacked their city. The monks, it is said, named their new abode after the river Pochaina, which flowed near the Kiev Caves.

According to tradition, around the year 1340 AD, one of the monks ascended the summit of Mount Pochaev to pray, when suddenly he beheld a pillar of fire burning in the wilderness. Calling out to the other monk to join him, he stood in prayer. The fire was seen also by some shepherds who were tending flocks in the area, among them Ivan Bosoi ["the barefoot"], who joined the monks in prayer. They beheld, surrounded by the flames and standing on a rock, the Most Holy Theotokos, the Mother of God. When the apparition finally disappeared, they saw that the place where the Theotokos had been standing had melted, leaving the imprint of her right foot embedded in the rock. Welling up over the footprint was a spring of clear water.

There are also accounts of the 'Holy Virgin' appearing above the walls of Constantinople to protect it during various invasions.

There are also pictures of the appearance of  'The Virgin'  above a Coptic Orthodox Church in Cairo.

There are also countless stories of the 'Theotokos' appearing to the Monks on Mount Athos which is dedicated to her.

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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2002, 06:24:32 PM »

It was also recorded that Russian would be converted to over to the Blessed Mother's "Immaculate Heart".  Is this Orthodox? Huh

JoeS

As my site says in the changing-text script for Oct. 13, F+ítima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.

Yes, because Russia did need to be converted--from communism.  Whatever *later* generations interpreted that to mean does not affect what the message was about, which was that Russia would fall to godless forces and that we should pray for its liberation.

In Christ,

anastasios

I've always been curious as to why the conversion of Russia from communism was more important in RC thinking than, let's say, the conversion of the more populous communist China.  And I do remember those days when I attended Polish RC parochial school with required attendance at mass for the students, even if we were not RC's.  At the end of every "low" mass, there were recited prayers for "the conversion of Russia."  In my student days I understood this to be nothing less than the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.  The Sisters encouraged this kind of thinking for both communist *and* "schismatic" Russians!  Angry

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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2002, 06:38:23 PM »

Dear Friends:


Since this is a phenomenon peculiar to the Roman Catholic Church, as Serge said, may I invite all who are interested in the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima to study the official position of the Catholic Church at:

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/Third_Secret/Fatima.htm

Please take note of the theological differentiation between a "Public Revelation," which ended with the birth of Lord Jesus Christ, and "Private Revelations," which include the appatritions of Our Lady at Lourdes and at Fatima.

I hope this will enliven our discussions on this matter.

AmdG

p.s. Serge, sorry I was unable to locate your Fatima page on your website.  Can you direct us, again, how to reach it?

Thanks.
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2002, 06:44:45 PM »

[In my student days I understood this to be nothing less than the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.  The Sisters encouraged this kind of thinking for both communist *and* "schismatic" Russians! ]

That's what I was also told by all my Roman Catholic fiends and playmates.  The same ones who also told me the nuns told them it would be a grave sin if they went into my 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  One nun even told them we had an American flag on the floor that we marched and spit on.  I kid you not!  He would never take my challenge to come see for himself because he was so scared it might be true.

They are the things one never gets over when it comes to the RCC and her so called new outlook.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2002, 07:27:26 PM »

Mr Guerrero,

There is no F+ítima page on my site, just a blurb that shows up occasionally stating what I typed here.
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2002, 07:51:36 PM »

I agree that this type of Marian apparation is predominantly a western phenomenon, although the Copts had a famous apparation at Zeitoun in Egypt not too many years ago. I find Orthodox views of the Theotokos in general more healthy than the Catholic ones I was raised with. I don't hanker after Fatima-type spirituality at all. A Catholic priest said at a lecture I attended

'the gospel says "and they found the child with His mother". In Catholicism we all too often find the mother without the child'

I think too that the context to apparations must also be taken into account. They often tend to occur at times of great social and political upheaval, exactly the circumstances of Portugal when this apparation took place. We were supposed to have had an apparation of our very own at Knock, County Mayo in 1879 when not only Our Lady but St Joseph and St John the Evangelist appeared as a triptych on the gable wall of the parish church. At this time Ireland was going through huge social and political upheavals of its own, and call me an old cynic but it always seemed to me that since we regarded ourselves as the suffering  Catholic people bar none, it was almost obligatory to have a visitation of our very own. Personally I have never believed in Knock or the whole  'Mary, Queen of Ireland' thing (doesn't she love the English too?) and feel that the distinction between private and public revelation is a valuable one. Would things like the Vision of St John of Kronstadt come under the same kind of heading?


BTW, when I prayed for the 'conversion of Russia' as a child I knew it was from godless communism, but to what was never actually made clear.

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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2002, 08:15:06 PM »

If "the sun had moved" no one would have survived to record the event. Mass hysteria/delusion is common among primitive minded people.

However, I would agree that the faith message is more than inspiring.

Jude
Give me a break dude, you sound like you have a superiority complex.

If you're implying western europeans are primitive, you better go back to school. I hope you retract your statement.

Bobby

Certainly not all Western Europeans are persons susceptible to mass hysteria/delusion, which is a universal phenomenon that can afflict any racial/ethnic group.

 Jude
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2002, 09:10:07 PM »

I must admit a soft spot in my heart for Our Lady of Fatima, as I attribute my "conversion" to her.

For a good part of my life, I grew up without too much interest in religion.  I'd go to church, I'd go to Sunday School, I'd read the Bible, but we never had family prayer growing up, or anything like that, so I was "barely" religious, or a "Sunday Christian".  

A bunch of things happened when I was in the seventh grade (I was about twelve or thirteen at the time), and among them were 1) hearing a presentation from a lady whose mother was at Fatima on 13 October 1917 and saw with her own eyes the "Miracle of the Sun", and 2) seeing a TV special about the apparitions.  The idea of a "solar miracle", as the TV programme called it, and the idea that the Virgin Mary would actually visit human beings so many hundreds of years later to tell us things intrigued me.  So I got books, I read them, they inspired questions, and I read more and more.  Eventually, I "converted"; I didn't become a Roman Catholic, but I found myself falling in love with the faith which I didn't really have much of a devotion for beforehand.  Before, I was "barely" religious.  Now, I was delving ever deeper into the faith, into prayer, into religious practice, etc.  

And, some seven or eight years later, here I am.  I am a changed man (in spite of being much more sinful than I was at that tender age) because of the messages given at Fatima by Our Lady the Mother of God.  I've never been particularly close to "the Immaculate Heart"; I still don't understand the point of such a devotion.  I didn't really think the "conversion of Russia" had to do with Roman Catholicism when I first read the messages; that "meaning" was given to me by other Roman Catholics.  But the fundamental message of Fatima, as I understand it, is repentance, turning away from sin, and drawing close to God and to the Virgin.  

How could any of us have a problem with that?
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2002, 02:00:18 PM »

I agree that we should be cautious of apparitions which occur outside the church, especially after reading the testimony of Matushka Katherine Swanson on her visit to Medjugorje.

Read here:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/medjugorje.htm
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2002, 04:50:31 PM »

I thought it might be of interest to this discussion to read the views on Fatima of the first Orthodox priest to serve regularly in Ireland in post-schism times, Father Nicholas Couris, who died in 1977. There was an article written about Father Nicholas  in a local history magazine, reproduced in our parish newsletter. The author, a local solicitor, tells of his first meeting with the priest and how when he arrived he was greeted with the words:

'Paddy, do you know what I'm reading? I'm reading about Fatima and how Our Lady told those children to whom she had appeared in 1917 at the height of our Russian Revolution, when religion had been banished from my country and all people connected with it driven out "Pray and Russia will return to her faith". You do not know how that consoles me to read about it.'

You can read the full article at http://www.orthodoxireland.com/lausperennis0999.pdf

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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2002, 05:29:53 PM »

That URL above doesn't work  Cry

Can you repost when u get the chance?

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« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2002, 08:49:52 AM »

My apologies, I quoted the url wrongly. The correct address is:

http://holytrinity.orthodoxireland.com/lausperennis0999.pdf

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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2002, 09:48:40 AM »

Regarding the "Dancing Sun" miracle at Fatima, you might like to consider it in light of other apparitions seen by large numbers of people.
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/hinduism_e.htm#_A_Fakir's_“Miracle”
The ascetics in the orthodox church have provided us with vast experience and resources for the purpose of avoiding spiritual deception and it doesn't seem to me that much of any kind of spiritual discernment is being exercised at any of the popular Marian apparitions. We should immediately be concerned by the almost complete lack of any mention of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, except with reference to him being angry and offended by our sin. Does this sound Orthodox? Does this sound like our beloved Theotokos, who spoke little and always directed us towards her Son? When did Mary ever take centre stage in the Gospels or Holy Tradition?
There have been many times where Panagia has appeared to individuals in the Orthodox church throughout its life, but none of those visitations share anything in common with the apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje.

Sorry Ephrem if this in any way takes away some of the sweetness of your conversion experience. It is certainly not my intention to do so. I rather praise God that He used this to plant a seed of faith in your heart which He then nurtured and brought to fruition by His Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2002, 11:00:42 AM »

Prodromos,

While I read what you wrote with an open mind, I can't help but disagree.

Maybe I have a Latin mindset, but isn't the Theotokos the one who sits enthroned next to her son? I notice that among certain Orthodox especially those who converted from protestantism, there is a tendency to downplay the role our most holy Theotokos plays in our every day life. She is an integral role in our salvation.

Without the Theotokos, Christ wouldn't have been born.

It is true that some apparitions can be spiritually deceiving, or even demonic, but I fail to see how the occurances at Fatima fall into that category. In fact, I think interpreted properly, the messages there can be applied to our every day life. We must live in healthy fear of God. Doesn't the priest admonish us during Divine Liturgy to "approach with FEAR of God and with faith and love?"

You mentioned that the appearnces of the Theotokos in the Orthodox Church don't share anything in common with the appearances in Lourdes or Fatima. Can you please elaborate a bit more on this, and explain why they don't share anything in common?

Bobby


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« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2002, 11:38:41 AM »

Prodromos,

While I read what you wrote with an open mind, I can't help but disagree.

Maybe I have a Latin mindset, but isn't the Theotokos the one who sits enthroned next to her son? I notice that among certain Orthodox especially those who converted from protestantism, there is a tendency to downplay the role our most holy Theotokos plays in our every day life. She is an integral role in our salvation.

Without the Theotokos, Christ wouldn't have been born.

It is true that some apparitions can be spiritually deceiving, or even demonic, but I fail to see how the occurances at Fatima fall into that category. In fact, I think interpreted properly, the messages there can be applied to our every day life. We must live in healthy fear of God. Doesn't the priest admonish us during Divine Liturgy to "approach with FEAR of God and with faith and love?"

You mentioned that the appearnces of the Theotokos in the Orthodox Church don't share anything in common with the appearances in Lourdes or Fatima. Can you please elaborate a bit more on this, and explain why they don't share anything in common?

Bobby

Without getting into a theological disputation, Bobby, as I do not feel that I am *that* theologically literate (as perhaps, the far more loquacious Serge, or Fr. Thomas), I think that it would be safe to say that from an Orthodox POV that we venerate the Mother *because of the Son.*  In Orthodox iconography, it is extremely rare for the Mother to be portrayed without the Son, and, where they are portrayed together, the Mother points to the Son.  We *never* see her pointing to herself in any way.

In Latin religious art, OTOH, the Mother is very often portrayed *alone* WITHOUT the Son, i.e., in her own right, it would seem, e.g, "Our Lady of Fatima," "of Lourdes," "of Grace," and the "Immaculate Heart of Mary" (wherein she points to her own disembodied heart), but she is also *sometimes* portrayed *with* the Son, with which we Orthodox feel more comfortable, e.g., Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Our Lady of Czestochowa (which is actually a Byzantine icon).

You say: "Without the Theotokos, Christ wouldn't have been born."  Yet, without the Eternal Father, His Co-Eternal Son and the All-Holy Spirit, there would have been no Theotokos, a creature like us, albeit without actually having sinned during her life!  Indeed, without God, none of us would exist.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us!

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« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2002, 01:04:11 PM »

Dear prodromos and Hypo-Ortho:


Our devotion to the Theotokos is summed up simply as: "To Jesus through Mary!"

Be it at Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe and elsewhere, the Holy Mother of God always points to Her Son as the "center."  

She brings to us the wishes of Her Son, Jesus Christ.  In this sense, She is a "messenger" of God.  And what a messenger She is!

At Fatima, the conversion of Russia FROM atheism (communism) to her faith (Christianity) was one of the messages;  the Catholic Church never officially teaches or taught that that conversion is/was to Roman Catholicism.

More telling is Fatima's message for our OWN conversion from sin:  Penance, penance, and penance as the angel(s)with Her admonished.

Of course, these messages are set to naught if one does not believe in any of Our Lady's apparitions.


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« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2002, 01:13:40 PM »


There are many of us here and elsewhere who still get a bad taste in our mouths when the issue of Fatima comes up.  Why?  Because we were kids in the fifties when we were constantly being told  by our Roman Catholic friends and classmates that the Theotokos had appeared and asked them to pray for the conversion of Russia TO ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

What we were being told, in essence, is that she had appeared primarily for the sole purpose of asking for prayers for the destruction of our Holy Orthodox Catholic faith!  Now here we are approximately 50 years later being told what she meant was for the destruction of communism and the return to the faith.  The question becomes WHAT FAITH?  I'm sorry, but at the time, there were just too many Roman Catholics from too many different RC parishes, all telling me the same story - Prayers had to be said for the conversion of Russia to RCism - for me to believe THEY ALL misinterpreted what their various priests and nuns were telling them.

As far as Lourdes, there have been too many healings for me to dicredit it.  However, wasn't it at Lourdes the Blessed Mother was supposed to have told the children - "I am the Immaculate Conception"?  Sorry people, but it is highly suspect for me to believe that the Holy Virgin would identify herself as such.  Especially when it was near the time that new doctrine was proclaimed by Rome.

Bob
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« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2002, 02:39:38 PM »


There are many of us here and elsewhere who still get a bad taste in our mouths when the issue of Fatima comes up.  Why?  Because we were kids in the fifties when we were constantly being told  by our Roman Catholic friends and classmates that the Theotokos had appeared and asked them to pray for the conversion of Russia TO ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

What we were being told, in essence, is that she had appeared primarily for the sole purpose of asking for prayers for the destruction of our Holy Orthodox Catholic faith!  Now here we are approximately 50 years later being told what she meant was for the destruction of communism and the return to the faith.  The question becomes WHAT FAITH?  I'm sorry, but at the time, there were just too many Roman Catholics from too many different RC parishes, all telling me the same story - Prayers had to be said for the conversion of Russia to RCism - for me to believe THEY ALL misinterpreted what their various priests and nuns were telling them.
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I gotta go with what you said in your paragraphs above, Bob, and my parents had placed my brother and me in a very strict, traditional Polish RC parochial "grammar" school at the time, even though we were "BC's" then.  No revisionist history will work for me now.

I still have to question this Fatima fixation for the "conversion of Russia."  Again I ask: Why not a concern for conversion of the more populous and mostly non-Christian Communist China?  At least in Russia, where Christians were being persecuted for the Faith--where many, yes thousands even!, Orthodox (and EC) bishops, priests, monastics and laity were executed or sent to the Gulags--the Faith was being kept alive, even if in secret.  Is not the blood of martyrs the seed of Faith?

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« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2002, 03:52:51 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

You raise interesting poings, and I agree history and events do get contorted to fit a particular agenda.

I personally think though that something out of the ordinary happened at Fatima, although I'm not sure if you would concede to that or not.

Permit me to step out on a limb with some conjecture though.

Russia (and eastern europe) is/was a bastion of Orthodoxy. Under the yoke of communism, persecution, and martyrdom, the faith grew alive and well, and the blood of matyrs flowed deep, so to speak. The Faith always prospers the most under persecution.

As we speak, in our present day, I see a growing and vibrant interest in the east from the west. In perusing catalogs I get, many from Roman Catholic companies(Ignatius, Autom, etc), I see everything, from icons to old believer crosses. This wouldn't be possible had not communism fallen and the world opened to Orthodoxy.

I'm at work now so I have to hurry, perhaps this doesn't make sense., but I think that the east is going to play an integral role in the salvation of mankind, and restoration of the west will only occur if they follow the east.


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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2002, 05:09:24 PM »

Dear Bob:

Originally posted by Orthodoc:

Quote
As far as Lourdes, there have been too many healings for me to dicredit it.  However, wasn't it at Lourdes the Blessed Mother was supposed to have told the children - "I am the Immaculate Conception"?  Sorry people, but it is highly suspect for me to believe that the Holy Virgin would identify herself as such.  Especially when it was near the time that new doctrine was proclaimed by Rome.

Yes, Our Blessed Mother told them, in their Southern France Basque language, that She was the "Immaculate Conception."

How could they know about the name before it is proclaim as that of the Blessed Mother by Rome?

Anyway, that's beside the point perhaps.

What I wish you to evaluate is St. Bernadette's incorrupt body up to the present, which underwent three previous exhumations during the process of her canonization.

Is it for real or is it a hoax foisted by the Catholic Church on us, the  gullible:

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm

Are the cures attributable to intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes miraculous or not?


AmdG

BTW, I forgot to mention that Our Lady of Fatima identified Herself to the children as the "Lady of the Rosary."
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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2002, 05:24:24 PM »

Actually St Bernadette didn't speak Basque (a prehistoric language unrelated to anything else in Europe), or French for that matter, but Proven+ºal, which is like Catalan in Spain: sort of a transitional language between French and Spanish, so the apparition said something like, 'Que era soy la Immaculada Concepcion'. (Looks a lot like distorted Spanish, doesn't it?)

Quote
The ascetics in the orthodox church have provided us with vast experience and resources for the purpose of avoiding spiritual deception and it doesn't seem to me that much of any kind of spiritual discernment is being exercised at any of the popular Marian apparitions. We should immediately be concerned by the almost complete lack of any mention of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, except with reference to him being angry and offended by our sin. Does this sound Orthodox? Does this sound like our beloved Theotokos, who spoke little and always directed us towards her Son? When did Mary ever take centre stage in the Gospels or Holy Tradition?
There have been many times where Panagia has appeared to individuals in the Orthodox church throughout its life, but none of those visitations share anything in common with the apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje.

No surprise here: I'm with Bobby on all this.

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When did Mary ever take centre stage in the Gospels or Holy Tradition?

Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Saviour, save us.

Most holy Mother of God, save us.

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Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje

I believe in the first two (and I understand Russians visit the first) and not the last - the local bishop has condemned it and it is mixed up with the charismatic movement.

The common man can plainly see that devotion to Mary is really the same on both sides. It's the converts who've got something to prove who muddy the waters.
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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2002, 06:27:09 PM »

The following website has the texts of the approved Marian apparitions.  I think it would be better to judge them based on the words themselves than others interpretations of them.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/approved.html
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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2002, 08:43:11 PM »

The Theotokos refered to the conversion of Russia to the Orthodox Faith and through the Eastern Rites, as sister Lucia herself stated, and even John Paul II has agreed. I have met some Orthodox priests who believe in Fatima and suscribe to this possition.

People (specially anti-orthodox latin traditionalists) who claim that Russia must become Roman Catholic are not really informed about the original situation of Russia under communism.
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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2002, 09:31:04 PM »

The Theotokos refered to the conversion of Russia to the Orthodox Faith and through the Eastern Rites, as sister Lucia herself stated, and even John Paul II has agreed. I have met some Orthodox priests who believe in Fatima and suscribe to this possition.

People (specially anti-orthodox latin traditionalists) who claim that Russia must become Roman Catholic are not really informed about the original situation of Russia under communism.

Remie, I'm not at all sure what you mean by your first paragraph above, especially "through the Eastern Rites."  

Btw, no one has yet answered me as to why there is/was the Fatima fixation on Communist, but still nominally Orthodox, Russia, a Communism which has since fallen, yet the conversion of the very populous Communist, mostly atheistic, China, a Communism still very much alive today, is totally ignored in the Fatima "message."  Will there be a Fatima II?

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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2002, 10:39:53 PM »

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The common man can plainly see that devotion to Mary is really the same on both sides. It's the converts who've got something to prove who muddy the waters.

Things are hardly the same.  Orthodoxy iconography almost always depicts the Theotokos WITH the Lord.  Mary is seen much more as an end in herself in common Latin piety (I was RC, so I know this).  Then there are some modernist circles that almost completly ignore her.  Then there is the entire issue of the "Immaculate Conception."

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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2002, 11:25:57 PM »

Btw, no one has yet answered me as to why there is/was the Fatima fixation on Communist, but still nominally Orthodox, Russia, a Communism which has since fallen, yet the conversion of the very populous Communist, mostly atheistic, China, a Communism still very much alive today, is totally ignored in the Fatima "message."  Will there be a Fatima II?

Dear Hypo-Ortho,

The messages that Our Lady gave to the children at Fatima specifically mentioned Russia.  Remember, this was 1917; China didn't become Red until the 1940's, if I'm not mistaken.  The messages said that Russia would "spread her errors" in the world.  In the sense that Communism was first adopted by Russia in 1917 and then spread to China decades later, one could say that this prophecy was fulfilled.  As to why the RC's have concentrated on Russia in spite of China and other places, I guess it's probably because the messages only mentioned Russia.
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2002, 11:47:01 PM »

Btw, no one has yet answered me as to why there is/was the Fatima fixation on Communist, but still nominally Orthodox, Russia, a Communism which has since fallen, yet the conversion of the very populous Communist, mostly atheistic, China, a Communism still very much alive today, is totally ignored in the Fatima "message."  Will there be a Fatima II?

Dear Hypo-Ortho,

The messages that Our Lady gave to the children at Fatima specifically mentioned Russia.  Remember, this was 1917; China didn't become Red until the 1940's, if I'm not mistaken.  The messages said that Russia would "spread her errors" in the world.  In the sense that Communism was first adopted by Russia in 1917 and then spread to China decades later, one could say that this prophecy was fulfilled.  As to why the RC's have concentrated on Russia in spite of China and other places, I guess it's probably because the messages only mentioned Russia.        

Thanks for the clarification, Mor, and your usually erudite and respectful replies.

As for me, these quasi-political Fatima messages with their "secrets" remain "alleged."  Why do I need to look *outside* of the Holy Orthodox Church to hear what God or His Most Holy Mother have to say to me when I hear their messages in church each time that I attend?  Why should I need signs and wonders if I have but a mustard-seed of Faith?  Miracles occur each time I attend the Divine Liturgy and the offered bread and wine are transmuted into the Body and Blood of Christ by the invisible action of the Holy Spirit.  What greater miracle can there be?

Private revelations, if indeed the alleged Fatima apparitions were that, do not have to be accepted by the Faithful in either the RC or EO Churches, AFAIK, to remain in good standing.  But if one were to make them dogmatic from the RC side, e.g., Immaculate Conception, I think you'd see many more Orthodox rejecting them outright without feeling a need to be so "PC."

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« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2002, 10:16:42 AM »

As for me, these quasi-political Fatima messages with their "secrets" remain "alleged."  Why do I need to look *outside* of the Holy Orthodox Church to hear what God or His Most Holy Mother have to say to me when I hear their messages in church each time that I attend?  Why should I need signs and wonders if I have but a mustard-seed of Faith?  Miracles occur each time I attend the Divine Liturgy and the offered bread and wine are transmuted into the Body and Blood of Christ by the invisible action of the Holy Spirit.  What greater miracle can there be?

True enough, Hypo-Ortho; I agree with you.  But when these things do happen, why reject them outright?  Why not "test everything and retain what is good", as Saint Paul admonishes us?  No one needs private revelations; we already have the public revelation that is Scripture and Holy Tradition.  But that doesn't mean one has to ignore private revelations as inconsequential, just as one does not have to accept them all either.  

I accept Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe, for example, and these have been approved by the RCC.  But there are other "private revelations", such as that of the "Lady of All Nations", that I have a harder time with (and have also been approved by the RCC).  In the former three, I find nothing objectionable, really, in the messages (the Virgin's declaration of herself as "the Immaculate Conception" at Lourdes certainly gives you something to think about, but I'm not sure how I feel about this: is there a sense in which the IC can be true?  That is for another thread, perhaps).  In the "Lady of All Nations" apparitions, however, I find quite a few things I take issue with.  

This is where it is good for everyone -- especially RC's -- to remember, as you said, that no one has to accept all private revelations.  You can reject them all, you can accept them all, you can pick and choose (as I have done).  It is not like public, or Holy Tradition, which you must accept.  The problem I see with many faithful Roman Catholics is that they tend to run after apparitions and locutions and weeping statues and what not blindly, and sometimes end up finding themselves at odds with their own Church, but for the most part just start basing their faith on these things...they couldn't tell you about the Second Ecumenical Council, but they'll tell you everything you wanted to know about an apparition of Saint Joseph occuring somewhere in West Africa, for example.  The problem I see with many faithful Orthodox, on the other hand, is that they all too easily dismiss such things as apparitions, locutions, and what not.  As with most things, I think the way to go is probably to be found somewhere in the middle.
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2002, 02:00:11 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about this: is there a sense in which the IC can be true?  

It is an insult to the most holy Theotokos above all else.  It is her full coperation in her free will that allowed the Saviour to become incarnate.  The "immaculate conception" makes the Theotokos more than human, thus lessoning her role in the incarnation.  If she were a sort of "super-human" and the rest of us mere humans that seperates us then ipso facto from the human nature of the Lord - ruining the concept of the incarnation in the process.  If the Holy Theotokos were removed from the effects of original sin then should would not die, sorrow, etc. etc.

Another thing about accepting RC "apparations" is that is a de facto acceptance of the branch theory or worse.  Rather than looking to Rome for Marian Piety why not look to the very heart of Orthodoxy, the Holy Mountain?  There are awsome miracles of miraculous icons and true apparitions from the Holy Mountain.
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2002, 10:13:33 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about this: is there a sense in which the IC can be true?  

It is an insult to the most holy Theotokos above all else.  It is her full coperation in her free will that allowed the Saviour to become incarnate.  The "immaculate conception" makes the Theotokos more than human, thus lessoning her role in the incarnation.  If she were a sort of "super-human" and the rest of us mere humans that seperates us then ipso facto from the human nature of the Lord - ruining the concept of the incarnation in the process.  If the Holy Theotokos were removed from the effects of original sin then should would not die, sorrow, etc. etc.

Another thing about accepting RC "apparations" is that is a de facto acceptance of the branch theory or worse.  Rather than looking to Rome for Marian Piety why not look to the very heart of Orthodoxy, the Holy Mountain?  There are awsome miracles of miraculous icons and true apparitions from the Holy Mountain.  

An excellent "apologia" for the Orthodox, Derek.  Thank you.

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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2002, 11:24:47 AM »

Another thing about accepting RC "apparations" is that is a de facto acceptance of the branch theory or worse.  

Having understood your point on the IC, how does accepting Roman Catholic apparitions become a de facto acceptance of the branch theory "or worse"?  In Eastern Orthodoxy, is there a sense that one must accept such "private revelations", if their source is the Holy Mountain?  If one does not believe in this or that or in all miraculous icons, is this not correct in some way?  What about phenomena occurring elsewhere?  Must an Eastern Orthodox Christian accept the miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem, for example?  What about miraculous phenomena occurring within the sphere of the Oriental Orthodox Churches?  I'm curious as to what you meant by your point above...
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« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2002, 11:53:08 AM »

Regarding the IC and free will, I'd say that Mary was like Eve, sinless, immaculate, only in Mary's case made so retroactively by Christ's grace. She had a choice at the Annunciation, just like Eve did in the garden. Free will. And Mary's fiat - 'be it done unto me according to Thy word' - was the choice that made the Incarnation possible in her.

As for the Holy Mountain, one can be orthodox but loony. (Having all one's marbles isn't necessary for salvation!) For all its good points - the holiness, the medieval mindset and society as a living reality - at least some of what's on Athos falls into that, I think - the monks only in communion with four other people, etc.
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« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2002, 12:08:41 PM »

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how does accepting Roman Catholic apparitions become a de facto acceptance of the branch theory "or worse"?  

By saying thier Marian Apparations are valid it carries with it the idea that the rest of the RCC is valid.  The worse is that the apparitions are big on the RCC concept of purgatory (the older Trent days purgatory, not the purgatory light of today), and other bits and pieces of RC theology and spiritualuty that are not Orthodox.  Also there seems to be mass prelest, which should be avoided at all costs, IMO.

Quote
In Eastern Orthodoxy, is there a sense that one must accept such "private revelations", if their source is the Holy Mountain?  If one does not believe in this or that or in all miraculous icons, is this not correct in some way?  What about phenomena occurring elsewhere?  Must an Eastern Orthodox Christian accept the miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem, for example?  

No, of course not.  I was simply offering that there are solidly Orthodox apparitions out there and that it would be better to look to those than ones outside the church.  The dangers of prelest and un-Ortodox theology are considerably less.

Quote
What about miraculous phenomena occurring within the sphere of the Oriental Orthodox Churches?  I'm curious as to what you meant by your point above...    

Sorry, I don't know much about the Oriental Orthodox Churches.  My spiritual Father has told their Christology is in line with ours (the differences mainly being semantics), soI don't see why they wouldn't have true miracles from the Lord.

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« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2002, 12:14:40 PM »

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As for the Holy Mountain, one can be orthodox but loony. (Having all one's marbles isn't necessary for salvation!) For all its good points - the holiness, the medieval mindset and society as a living reality - at least some of what's on Athos falls into that, I think - the monks only in communion with four other people, etc.

I guess they are fools for Christ in the eyes of this world.  I honestly do not understand what people have against the Holy Montain.
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« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2002, 12:21:36 PM »

Regarding the IC and free will, I'd say that Mary was like Eve, sinless, immaculate, only in Mary's case made so retroactively by Christ's grace. She had a choice at the Annunciation, just like Eve did in the garden. Free will. And Mary's fiat - 'be it done unto me according to Thy word' - was the choice that made the Incarnation possible in her.

Would you understand the IC in this manner: a retroactive baptism?  As the Forerunner was sanctified in the womb, the Mother of God was sactified at the first moment of conception.  I cannot see the impact on free will.  The fiat--accomplished by none other than St. Mary's free will--is the signature of our salvation in all the Apostolic Christian traditions.

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« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2002, 12:37:51 PM »

Samer,

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Would you understand the IC in this manner: a retroactive baptism?  As the Forerunner was sanctified in the womb, the Mother of God was sactified at the first moment of conception.  I cannot see the impact on free will.  The fiat--accomplished by none other than St. Mary's free will--is the signature of our salvation in all the Apostolic Christian traditions.

Exactly!
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2002, 12:43:30 PM »

[Regarding the IC and free will, I'd say that Mary was like Eve, sinless, immaculate, ]

Eve was sinless?Huh??  Then why was she banished from the Garden of Eden?  If God had created her to be sinless she would have been just that.  And as such would not have disobeyed him.
Your comment makes no sense to me.  Please explain further.

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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2002, 12:43:35 PM »

My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lords Immaculate Conception.  For me, the belief that Mary, born as any other normal human is born with original sin, CHOSE NOT to sin and that makes Her more Blessed in my eyes.  Our Blessed Mother is the epitomy of obedience and Joachim and Anna must have done their jobs as parents exceedingly well.  For Mary to have been sanctified prior to the Our Lord's Immaculate Conception can be left for others to argue.  I have to admire anyone who especially Her who could have sinned but chose not to.  Smiley

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« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2002, 12:47:11 PM »

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Eve was sinless?Huh??  Then why was she banished from the Garden of Eden? ...Your comment makes no sense to me.  Please explain further.

She was sinless pre-fall.

Quote
If God had created her to be sinless she would have been just that.  And as such would not have disobeyed him.

That doesn't work because then Eve wouldn't have had free will. One can be sinless but have choice.

Quote
My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lord's Immaculate Conception

Sorry, but that view, sometimes presented as the Eastern Orthodox answer to the IC, doesn't fly. Gabriel said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.'
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« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2002, 01:11:33 PM »

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Ofcourse She was full of grace, She didnt sin. Dont be sorry, thats what I believe and I respect your belief.  Do you believe in the IC of Mary?

JoeS


Quote
My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lord's Immaculate Conception

Sorry, but that view, sometimes presented as the Eastern Orthodox answer to the IC, doesn't fly. Gabriel said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.'
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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2002, 01:13:36 PM »

OK, JoeS, I understand that interpretation ('full of grace' meaning 'never actually sinned').

The stuff about the IC being bound up with the peculiarly Latin view of original sin really goes over my head. I believe she was immaculate with free will.
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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2002, 07:11:29 PM »

Dear Friends in Christ,

I personally do not accept the Fatima revelation. In 1951 Pius XII announced that the VM had told him:"You will consecrate Russia to me".  While we must be grateful to the Pontiff for his war on communism, we did not need the RCC to solve our spiritual problems.  As the Metropolitan of Mt Lebanon in 1947? reported: The Mother of God told me she saved Russia through the prayers of her saints, especially St Serafim of Vyristsa.  So on the western side, the RCC guided by the Theotokos enlists the NAZI party (German Catholicis were told to vote for it) to attack Russia, while the Theotokos of the Orthodox Church defends Russia from the NAZIs.

Again the devil appears in Mary's clothes at Meji...suddenly disappears at returns as the Theotokos, who tells her seer to ignore what she saw.  This was simply a technical hitch (backstage in Hell).

Sorry to offend my RC friends. I studied at a RC College, loved those nuns!  But Orthodoxy is the fullness of faith, the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

I shall be posting an article on modern day prelest on my website www.fatherserafim.info in a couple of days.

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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2002, 07:11:53 PM »

My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lords Immaculate Conception. JoeS

The RC belief called the "Immaculate Conception" is regarding the coneception in the womb of St. Ann of the Theotokos.  In other words, how the Virghin Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne.

The miraculous way in which Our Lord was conceived and born is called the Virgin Birth in Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
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« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2002, 10:05:40 AM »

Fr Serafim,

-æ-+-¦-¦-+-ü-+-+-¦-+-é-¦. Respectfully read and acknowledged. As you know, people in the Catholic Church aren't required to believe in F+ítima (or any apparition) either. ISTM a more Orthodox view of the apostolic ministry would have the first bishop (patriarch, metropolitan) of an autocephalous Church consecrate his own country, rather than a foreign patriarch of another rite (and, of course, outside the present Orthodox communion). The Catholic Church, of course, sees it differently (or claims to), with the Pope of Rome wearing two hats, as head of the Roman Church and rite and as vicar of Christ, and in the latter role a consecration of any country on earth would be seen as appropriate. Whether that separation of roles is real and whether the common man thinks that way (my experience is no, he doesn't) are other matters.

Private recognition of apparitions outside the Orthodox Church doesn't necessarily endorse the Catholic view of the church, simply that God created the visible church but isn't limited to it - He is God, He is sovereign and can work wherever. As long as the content of the messages aren't formally heretical (condemned in scripture or by the councils).

Quote
So on the western side, the RCC guided by the Theotokos enlists the NAZI party (German Catholicis were told to vote for it) to attack Russia, while the Theotokos of the Orthodox Church defends Russia from the NAZIs.

With all due respect, that sounds like Bolshevik propaganda - subservient Metropolitan Sergius backing the Soviet war effort and Stalin therefore giving the Russian Church a break and even some official clout.

Plenty of people in the Russias - Ukrainians (survivors of Soviet starvation in the 1930s), Byelorussians and perhaps even Great Russians - welcomed the Germans as liberators. Not that the Nazis were right, and yes, I know they despised Slavs, but understandable. I've met two Ukrainians, one Catholic and one Orthodox (yes, and Russian-speaking to boot), who served in the German army defending their home against the Soviets, and I don't blame them. Theirs was a just war. Who again were the 'good guys' or 'bad guys'?

Quote
Again the devil appears in Mary's clothes at Meji...suddenly disappears at returns as the Theotokos, who tells her seer to ignore what she saw.  This was simply a technical hitch (backstage in Hell).

If you are referring to Medjugorje, most interesting and I agree - as they say in the States, it's a $3 bill.
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« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2002, 10:29:22 AM »

Yes, I know that, I was only trying to make the point that the only (excuse the expression) IC was Our Lord's.  The Virgin Birth is the accepted term. Cool
JoeS

My belief is that Our Blessed Mother was sanctified at the moment of Our Lords Immaculate Conception. JoeS

The RC belief called the "Immaculate Conception" is regarding the coneception in the womb of St. Ann of the Theotokos.  In other words, how the Virghin Mary was conceived in the womb of St. Anne.

The miraculous way in which Our Lord was conceived and born is called the Virgin Birth in Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  
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« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2002, 03:01:59 PM »

Dear Serge,
Bog blagoslovit!

Yes it does sound like Bolshevik propaganda and was probably used by them to justify the defence of Russia.  Interestingly enough Elder Savva of Pskov blessed young Orthodox to serve in the Red Army, because they were defending their fatherland. I am no admirer of current MP management, but the defence of Russia is a concept which democrats worldwide do not seem to understand.  Also I do believe that Russia will play a signficant role in the preservation of Orthodoxy.  I risk being accused of messianism - third Rome and all that stuff but I believe that the RCC is a threat to Orthodoxy. To quote: "His Holiness (Pius XII) thinks that even these crimes and this blood will one day be of service if it is going to be possible, when the wave of irreligion has passed, to attempt a Catholic evangelization in Russia.  Orthodoxy no longer has any deep rooted life; its end as the official religion offers possibilities which would never have existed so long as a Tsar, Protector of the Church, continued to reign".  Cardinal Monti.

Quite recently Bishop Yuri (Yurchyk) of Donetsk, Ukraine indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God (Fatima) to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima - that "Russia will be converted".  On 24th October, 2002, Bishop Yuri joined the RCC.


The love of God for the RC, who is leading a pious life and who is probably not aware of the political dimension of the Vatican, is not in question.  God judges as He wishes.

The boundaries of the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ have been clearly defined by the Ecumenical Councils.  But again God judges as he wishes.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim
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« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2002, 03:21:42 PM »

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As for the Holy Mountain, one can be orthodox but loony. (Having all one's marbles isn't necessary for salvation!) For all its good points - the holiness, the medieval mindset and society as a living reality - at least some of what's on Athos falls into that, I think - the monks only in communion with four other people, etc.

I guess they are fools for Christ in the eyes of this world.  I honestly do not understand what people have against the Holy Montain.  

I imagine the Fathers of the Holy Mountain have their own--and genuinely apostolic--definition of what is 'looney' or 'non-looney.'

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« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2002, 04:05:09 PM »

Thank you, Father.

Quote
the defence of Russia is a concept which democrats worldwide do not seem to understand.  

I think I can appreciate it but also defend the decision of those in the Russias (including recently invaded former Polish Ukraine) who defended their homes against the Soviets.

Quote
Also I do believe that Russia will play a signficant role in the preservation of Orthodoxy.

You may be right!

Quote
I risk being accused of messianism - third Rome and all that stuff but I believe that the RCC is a threat to Orthodoxy.

Metropolitan Anthony (Bloom) in London and many others agree with you.

Quote
To quote: "His Holiness (Pius XII) thinks that even these crimes and this blood will one day be of service if it is going to be possible, when the wave of irreligion has passed, to attempt a Catholic evangelization in Russia.  Orthodoxy no longer has any deep rooted life; its end as the official religion offers possibilities which would never have existed so long as a Tsar, Protector of the Church, continued to reign".  Cardinal Monti.

I know that post-Russian Revolution there have been Catholic churchmen, such as Fr/Bishop Michel d'Herbigny, who thought this way, but it contradicts AFAIK the worldview of the traditional, pre-Vatican II Popes, who saw the monarchies of Christian Europe as the safeguard of Christendom - the monarchies, including the tsardom, that the great evil known now as WWI destroyed.

Quote
Quite recently Bishop Yuri (Yurchyk) of Donetsk, Ukraine indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God (Fatima) to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima - that "Russia will be converted".  On 24th October, 2002, Bishop Yuri joined the RCC.

This has been covered here before. To sum up, Bishop Yuri wasn't an Orthodox bishop - he belonged to the uncanonical Kiev Patriarchate under Filaret. And he didn't join the Catholic Church, but a splinter group from it that says there's been no Pope since 1958. In other words, a not-really-Orthodox bishop became a not-really-Catholic bishop.
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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2002, 07:36:33 PM »

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I imagine the Fathers of the Holy Mountain have their own--and genuinely apostolic--definition of what is 'looney' or 'non-looney.'

Indeed.  I have the blessing of living close to a monastery that from the accounts of people who have been to the Holy Mountain is just like the Holy Mountain (except women pilgrims are there as well).  Some friends and I heading down there for liturgy at 2 AM tomorrow...it is always such a blessed place to visit.  Here is their webpage http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/
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« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2002, 03:57:11 PM »

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Indeed.  I have the blessing of living close to a monastery that from the accounts of people who have been to the Holy Mountain is just like the Holy Mountain (except women pilgrims are there as well).  Some friends and I heading down there for liturgy at 2 AM tomorrow...it is always such a blessed place to visit.  Here is their webpage http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/

You are very fortunate to live so close to a monastery such as that.  I wish I lived close to one. Sad
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« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2002, 08:30:16 PM »

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Indeed.  I have the blessing of living close to a monastery that from the accounts of people who have been to the Holy Mountain is just like the Holy Mountain (except women pilgrims are there as well).  Some friends and I heading down there for liturgy at 2 AM tomorrow...it is always such a blessed place to visit.  Here is their webpage http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/

You are very fortunate to live so close to a monastery such as that.  I wish I lived close to one. Sad

I agree with you.  So do I.   The monastery in Arizona, St. Anthony's, founded by the Elder Ephraim, to which Sinjinsmythe refers, enjoys good official standing within the GOA and is solidly Orthodox.  HTM in Brookline, OTOH, belonging to the HOCNA, comes under Serge's bann, despite the good spiritual experiences that both Gregory and I have had there.   Sad   The only other Orthodox monastery I can think of in this five-state New England area is in Richford, VT, but it belongs to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Vasilopoulis.  Would that one be okay, Serge?   Grin  Then there's the controversial New Skete Monastery (OCA) across the Vermont State line in Cambridge, NY, of course.  But, it's still "canonical," Serge and Nicholas, even with its frescoes of Dr. Michael Ramsey, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI, and Martin Luther King Jr. mixed indiscriminately with portraits of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Patriarch Athenagoras I, Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris and Ravensbruck, and Fr. Alexander Men', all together sharing space as equals in the upper walls of the nave of the Temple of the Holy Wisdom amidst experimental liturgical services that border more on the Novus Ordo Latin than anything distinctly Byzantine Orthodox.  But at least the dogs they train are no longer permitted to join the New Skete Monks, Nuns and Companions in church for their liturgical worship there.

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« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2002, 08:55:58 PM »

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But, it's still "canonical," Serge and Nicholas, even with its frescoes of Dr. Michael Ramsey, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI, and Martin Luther King Jr. mixed indiscriminately with portraits of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Patriarch Athenagoras I, Mother Maria Skobtsova of Paris and Ravensbruck, and Fr. Alexander Men', all together sharing space as equals in the upper walls of the nave of the Temple of the Holy Wisdom amidst experimental liturgical services that border on the Latin.  But at least the dogs are no longer permitted to join the New Skete Monks, Nuns and Companions in their liturgical worship in church there.

After that description of New Skete, how can they still be considered 'canonical' especially with frescoes of Doris Day??? Huh  They don't sound too Orthodox to me.   The last thing we need is a monastery that borders on being looney.  I don't think the ROCOR people would be too happy with them.
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« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2002, 11:42:54 PM »

Sinjin, that's Dorothy Day the Catholic Social Justice worker, not Doris Day the actress.  Read up on her sometime.  Fascinating woman.
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« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2002, 11:27:12 AM »

[They don't sound too Orthodox to me.  The last thing we need is a monastery that borders on being looney.  I don't think the ROCOR people would be too happy with them.]

Neither are some of us in the OCA.

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« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2002, 11:31:16 AM »

Sinjin, that's Dorothy Day the Catholic Social Justice worker, not Doris Day the actress.  Read up on her sometime.  Fascinating woman.  
Que sera sera! Cheesy

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« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2002, 12:54:03 AM »

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I agree with you.  So do I.  The monastery in Arizona, St. Anthony's, founded by the Elder Ephraim, to which Sinjinsmythe refers, enjoys good official standing within the GOA and is solidly Orthodox.  

I spent from the midnight hours to Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great there today.  It is so awsome.  The Greek is a bit much at times, but I am learning.  It is worth the hour drive just to recieve a blessing from Elder Ephraim, IMO.  Since this monastery and a few other like minded priests and people were my only expierence with the GOA, I was a little un-believing of claims that it is modernist.  If you hit the right parts this (the GOA) really is an awsome jurisdiction.
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« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2008, 07:37:46 AM »

What does Orthodoxy think about the visions of Fatima in which it was claimed that the Virgin Mary was pleading for people to do penance for their sins and the sins of the whole world? How does Orthodoxy describe the personality of Mary?
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« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2008, 02:22:58 PM »

As far as i know ,Jesus Christ has done it all for us , penance is to improve our selfs i never heard of pleasing or appeasing God If we love God we try to do his will,, though we fall short....SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0MOST BLESSED LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS  CHRIST SON OF GOD HAVE MERCY UPON US  SINNER"S.......SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0ГОСПОДЕ ИСУС ХРИСТОС БОГ НАШ СМИЛУЈСЕ НА НАС ГРЕШНЕ АМИН...SmileyCentral.com" border="0 I dont believe in Fatima..SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2008, 02:29:50 PM »

I didn't grow up as a Roman Catholic, so never paid much attention to Fatima. For the most part, I've rarely heard it being discussed by Orthodox people.
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« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2008, 02:58:06 PM »

so never paid much attention to Fatima. For the most part, I've rarely heard it being discussed by Orthodox people.

My understanding of Fatima is that the "Third Prophecy" remains secret knowledge for the Catholic Hierarchy.  One of the "Prophecies" involves the Consecration of Russia (e.g. converting Russia to Catholicism) in a bid to weaken Eastern Orthodoxy.  Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.  If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

Request to Holy Father to Consecrate Russia
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« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2008, 03:09:41 PM »

My understanding of Fatima is that the "Third Prophecy" remains secret knowledge for the Catholic Hierarchy.  One of the "Prophecies" involves the Consecration of Russia (e.g. converting Russia to Catholicism) in a bid to weaken Eastern Orthodoxy.  Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.  If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

Request to Holy Father to Consecrate Russia

 Shocked Shocked Shocked You don't say!?!
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« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2008, 05:00:09 PM »

This was actually one of the very first things we discussed here at OCnet. I'll merge this into that thread so that you will have the benefit of reading what others have to say about it.
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« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2008, 06:07:45 PM »

Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.
I don't see get it.  How is such a thing as the Fatima apparition Gnosticism?
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« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2008, 07:02:49 PM »

I don't see get it.  How is such a thing as the Fatima apparition Gnosticism?

If top Hierarchs of the Roman Catholic Church have kept the 3rd relevation of Fatima a secret, would that count as "secret knowledge" not known to everybody and the definition of Gnosticism?

From the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia:

Gnosticism - A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity, held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and the whole universe a depravation of the Deity, and taught the ultimate end of all being to be the overcoming of the grossness of matter and the return to the Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by the appearance of some God-sent Saviour.

The consecration of Russia would count as a return to the Parent-Spirit.
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« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2008, 07:05:18 PM »

I don't see get it.  How is such a thing as the Fatima apparition Gnosticism?

Fatima consists of more than the supposed apparitions. The purported appartions are long gone, the locutions are alive and well.

Gnosis = esoteric spiritual knowledge available through direct experience.
Fatima locutions = secret 'knowledge' (message) imparted directly to (insert 'visionary' here), and in this instance, the 'secrets' are entrusted to the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
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« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2008, 08:38:37 PM »

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If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

How does it do that? It seems to somewhat support Catholicism because one of the children claimed that Russia would be consecrated to Mary's "Immaculate Heart"....
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« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2008, 09:41:40 PM »

How does it do that? It seems to somewhat support Catholicism because one of the children claimed that Russia would be consecrated to Mary's "Immaculate Heart"....

The fall of Roman Catholicism is represented by the apocalyptic imagery of Popes and other Hierarchs being gunned down in front of a huge cross on top of a mountain, which was listed in the Fatima Prophecy.

Christ was crucified on top of a hill (Golgotha) except He rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven and sent down the Holy Spirit to the 12 Apostles on Pentecost.  The apocalyptic imagery does not sound like anything embraced by the Holy Trinity which is why the Church does not have readings from the Book of Revelations.  Yet, the Roman Catholics have been quoted as saying that Fatima's 3rd Prophecy is a rehash of the middle 13 chapters of Revelations.  Hence, while the Roman Catholic Church is free to believe in anything, the Orthodox position both doesn't change and doesn't have any opinions on Fatima.
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« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2008, 11:16:21 PM »



Non of this fatima stuff  Makes sense ......Huh??
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« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2008, 01:08:06 PM »


Non of this fatima stuff  Makes sense ......Huh??

In my opinion it makes sense primarily as a private vision that was granted to the children - Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta.  In particular, Lucia seems to have been most affected by what she saw, and wound up becoming a contemplative nun.

There are a couple of books out now consisting of her spiritual diaries - they're actually quite moving - simple and devout.  She reminded me quite a bit of St. Therese of Liseux - if you've ever read her "Story of a Soul" you know what I mean.
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« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2008, 01:35:56 PM »

In my opinion it makes sense primarily as a private vision that was granted to the children - Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta.  In particular, Lucia seems to have been most affected by what she saw, and wound up becoming a contemplative nun.

There are a couple of books out now consisting of her spiritual diaries - they're actually quite moving - simple and devout.  She reminded me quite a bit of St. Therese of Liseux - if you've ever read her "Story of a Soul" you know what I mean.

Just an FYI,The other two children died as children, only Lucia survived to adulthood. Those who knew the visionaries stated that the two children who died had the greater belief. It is important to note that Lucia did not disavow the visions. I was advised that somewhere in her latter part of her life, she actually noted that she believed that the resurrection of the Orthodox Church in Russia was due to the intervention of the Virgin Mary as promised in the vision and was the fulfillment of the vision and the prophecy (this is hearsay, I do not have a printed quotation to cite). This is interesting in view of the time of the visions and the relationship of the visions in response to the rise of Bolshevikism in Russia.

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« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2008, 12:38:35 AM »

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I know this is going to turn into another thread, but...


Why not?  Especially when these visions are being reported by members of the "True" Orthodox Church with a mission church in South Ossetia.

People have had fun beating up Roman Catholicism for the past 25 years.  People are now discovering something which has continued to exist after being beaten up for 2,000 years.

We're not having fun beating up the Roman Catholic Church. We're defending the truths of the Orthodox church. If the Fatima visions were, in fact, from the Virgin Mary, and there was such a thing as Her "Immaculate Heart", then why would the Orthodox Church, which seems to place no pricetag on truth, continue to disbelieve in that dogma of the Catholic Church? That's why I think comparison of these two events is not on equal ground.
As for the continuing existence of the RCC after 2,000 years--look at Hinduism. It has survived for even longer, maybe not completely in its present form, but that doesn't mean Hinduism is completely correct. This is also why I feel a comparison between these two events is not on par with Truth.
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« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2008, 02:04:41 AM »

Fatima can't be compared with this ,,,this one in Georgia didn't preach false doctine imaculate heart or imaculate conception it didn't  speak at all from what i read and understood ...SmileyCentral.com" border="0many people seen this one all educated levels  not just  some uneducated countrybumkins children like fatima or lourds....
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« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2008, 05:15:04 AM »

^^ Myrrh23, the scandals of the Roman Catholic Church during the last 25 years have resulted in major financial and spiritual damage.  Hinduism hasn't had the same scandals as Roman Catholicism or any other Chrisitan faith.  Fatima was used to predict WW I, WW II and Communism - major geopolitical events.  My comments also implied that the Orthodox Church is now on the bullseye of people who think they can destroy her once and for all because the resolve of her adherents has been weakened by secularism (e.g. young people not attending Church, interfaith marriage, etc.)

We didn't need some religious phantom to predict all of those things. It's odd that you write that Fatima was used to predict WWI, since the visions were reportedly seen in 1917-- a year before the end of WWI, which started in 1914. As for predicting the end of the war, I think studying the progression of the war up to that point can tell us what would have happened. Although I know it didn't, if the apparition had predicted the start of WW1, we wouldn't need that, either. I'm sure there were many people living at that time who saw how aggressive the nations of the world were against each other with all their political pacts of alliance. It's like, if I cash a bad check, I know what's going to eventually happen to me. It's the same line of reasoning...
Also, seeing how the rest of the world treated Germany following the Great War, did we really need a religious ghost predicting that Germany would lash out in another World War like a cornered dog?
As for the prediction of Communism is Russia, the Marxist idea of Communism had gained many adherents, especially among the Russian
revolutionary intelligentsia, decades before the appearances of this apparition. The Russian Monarchy, like many monarchies before it, had its head stuck up its butt. The world didn't need an apparition to show what we little people do to kings and queens who get too high on their horses.

Again, we shouldn't put as much credibility to Fatima as the apparition in the news article because of what it preaches, and it preaches something contrary to the Truth of the Orthodox Church, especially since the Ghost wished Orthodox Russia to be "consecrated" to some "Immaculate Heart". I don't believe our Mother would not only insult Russia like that, but draw attention away from Jesus Christ. Smiley


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« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2008, 08:24:11 AM »



Was it Fatima where the Theotokos was supposed to have replied to the children when they asked her who she was - "I am the Immaculate Conception"?  If so, that in itself should show the fallacy of this so called appearance.  It's amazing how things change.  I was brought up in the 50's where every Friday my Roman Catholic friends would tell me that, because of Fatima, they had to go to church to pray for the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism!  Now I'm supposed to believe my ears were wrong & the prayers were for the conversion of Russia from communism.  In fact, now I'm also being told there is no such thing as the ROMAN Catholic Church.  To call it such is insulting.  It's just supposed to now be the Catholic Church.  How am I supposed to distinguish the Catholicity of my church from theirs [to indicate we Orthodox never left the Catholic Church as they claim] if I'm no longer supposed to use the term Roman Catholic?  Go figure!  And why should I be required to abide by rules or changes made in a church I do not belong to or believe in?

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« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2008, 09:55:41 AM »


Was it Fatima where the Theotokos was supposed to have replied to the children when they asked her who she was - "I am the Immaculate Conception"? 

Nah, that was Lourdes, with a girl named Bernadette Soubirous. Apparently, the image told her that when the doctrine was only newly approved for belief.
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« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2008, 12:00:32 PM »

Nah, that was Lourdes, with a girl named Bernadette Soubirous. Apparently, the image told her that when the doctrine was only newly approved for belief.

On another forum a Roman Catholic once asked me:

"Can you name one doctrine in the Catholic Church that has its basis in a vision or apparition?"

To which I replied:

"Immaculate Conception... oh wait - Lourdes came shortly after that innovation was announced... What're the odds of that coincidence..." 
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« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2008, 12:56:32 PM »

On another forum a Roman Catholic once asked me:

"Can you name one doctrine in the Catholic Church that has its basis in a vision or apparition?"

To which I replied:

"Immaculate Conception... oh wait - Lourdes came shortly after that innovation was announced... What're the odds of that coincidence..." 


Not to go too off topic and nit-pick, but the Immaculate Conception was doctrine well before Lourdes, just not dogma (the feast was established by Pope Sixtus IV).  It wasn't until Ineffabilis Deus where it was established as Church dogma, centuries after the Feat date was promulgated.  Roman Catholics were free to believe or not believe in (and challenge) the Immaculate Conception, but the belief was becoming more popular and common with Roman Catholics, which was paramount in it being declared a Feast Day.
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« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2008, 03:20:18 PM »

[In my student days I understood this to be nothing less than the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.  The Sisters encouraged this kind of thinking for both communist *and* "schismatic" Russians! ]

That's what I was also told by all my Roman Catholic fiends and playmates.  The same ones who also told me the nuns told them it would be a grave sin if they went into my 'Russian Orthodox Church'.  One nun even told them we had an American flag on the floor that we marched and spit on.  I kid you not!  He would never take my challenge to come see for himself because he was so scared it might be true.

They are the things one never gets over when it comes to the RCC and her so called new outlook.

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An elderly couple from my old Church told me how they ended up (or rather, the husband) Orthodox: he was RC, she Orthodox.  Her father told them not to start with a mixed marriage, so he told his daughter to convert to the RC.  When the RC priest insisted that her baptism was void and she needed baptism the groom to be said he would never come back, and he converted to Orthodoxy instead.  This was the 1940s.

Yes, from what they told me, being Russian Orthodox in those days was a cross.  I have also been told (and actually read in a RC publication) that the slant on the three bar Russian Cross is because the Orthodox believe that Our Lord had a club foot!
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« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2009, 05:04:18 PM »


It's amazing how things change.  I was brought up in the 50's where every Friday my Roman Catholic friends would tell me that, because of Fatima, they had to go to church to pray for the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism!  Now I'm supposed to believe my ears were wrong & the prayers were for the conversion of Russia from communism. 

Orthodoc, I have to agree with you,  I went through the Catholic school system for 13 years.  We attended Mass nearly every morning at 7am after I turned 8 years old and we were always taught in religious studies classes that the prayers at the end of Mass were for the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.

Given the self-understanding of the Roman Catholic Church at that period prior to Vatican II, how could it be otherwise?  There was a genuine and profound belief that the world must be in obedience to the Holy Father in Rome.   By those lights Russia's conversion to Roman Catholicism was seen as the greatest blessing that God could bestow.

On a thread devoted to this topic of Fatima people asked for the source of my quotes on this topic but the thread is no longer accessible and so I should like to incorporate these references in this message to you.  The quotes totally support your position and are fully relevant to this thread.

1. In 1917, the Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

Reference:   The words of the Lady of Fatima are easy enough to find on many websites and in hundreds of books on Fatima.  Here they are on an EWTN website:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/FIRSTSAT.htm
 
See "The Third Apparition, July 13"

-oOo-

2. Now what does the Lady mean by the words "she  [Russia] will be converted?   Here is what Joaquin Alonso writes.  Fr Alonso is THE archivist of Fatima and has a 26 volume edition on Fatima to his credit.


 Father Joaquin Alonso, probably the top Fatima expert of the 20th Century. Father Alonso, who had many interviews with Sister Lucy, wrote in 1976:

". . . we should affirm that Lucia always thought that the 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian People to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church." [17]

Reference:   "La Verdad Sobre el Sacradoto de Fatima, Fatima sin mitos," Father Joaquin Alonso, (2nd edition, Ejercito Azul, Madrid, 1988) p. 78. English translation by Joseph Cain. [/b]

Original Spanish reads: ". . . podriamos decit que Lucia ha pensado siempre que "conversion" de Rusia no se entiende solo de un retorno de los pueblos de Rusia a la religion cristiano-ortodoxa, rechazando el afeismo marxista yateo de los, soviets, sino que se refiere pura y Ilanmente a la conversion total e integral du un retorno a la unica y verdadera Iglesia, la catolico-romana."

Note that the original Spanish is even more explicit than the English translation.  Russia's conversion is to the Roman Catholic Church ("Iglesia, la catolico-romana.")

-oOo-

3.  Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"    ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

Reference:   http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

See paragraph 11

-oOo-
 
4.  Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

Reference:   http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECUM.HTM

See Section II, the last paragraph of the section. 

-oOo-


In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

I hope that these references will be satisfactory to those who were asking for them.


 
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« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2009, 07:58:48 PM »

I don't think the Leonine prayers are forbidden. I think what Paul VI really did was lift the requirement that they be said.

This morning, at the traditional Latin Mass I attend at the Cathedral in Boston, Fr. O'Brien led us in praying these very prayers. I personally pray them for the intention of the "liberty and exaltation of holy Mother Church" (as the prayers say).

Looking in my 1962 Roman Missal (the Baronius edition, which is officially approved), it states the Leonine prayers as being "now optional."

As for what the "conversion of Russia" means, I don't think it is relevant now. If these prayers are ever made obligatory after Low Mass again, perhaps the Pope could make them for the intentions of the general struggle of Christianity against the cancer of secularism (which, I think, subsumes the previous intentions declared by Leo XIII and Pius XI, and is more relevant than ever today).
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« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2009, 08:28:36 PM »

As to the question of what Pius XI intended to do by offering the prayers for the "conversion of Russia," I tend to the view that he meant them chiefly for the liberation of Russia from atheistic Communism (a frequent target of strong condemnation by Pius XI and Pius XII especially).

If it were otherwise, why were the prayers not also for the conversion of other Orthodox countries like Greece and Romania? Were the Greeks and Romanians somehow less in need of conversion to Catholicism?

By the "conversion of Russia," I think it is plain that Pius XI meant by "Russia" the Soviet leaders and their collaborators, not the people. Remember what a shocking event October 1917 was---one of the major countries in the world and a devoutly Christian one at that, taken over by force and turned into an atheist empire. This dreadful victory by Satan was the real impetus for Pius XI's action, whatever some nuns in the 1950s thought.
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« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2009, 09:03:15 PM »

As to the question of what Pius XI intended to do by offering the prayers for the "conversion of Russia," I tend to the view that he meant them chiefly for the liberation of Russia from atheistic Communism (a frequent target of strong condemnation by Pius XI and Pius XII especially).

If it were otherwise, why were the prayers not also for the conversion of other Orthodox countries like Greece and Romania? Were the Greeks and Romanians somehow less in need of conversion to Catholicism?

By the "conversion of Russia," I think it is plain that Pius XI meant by "Russia" the Soviet leaders and their collaborators, not the people. Remember what a shocking event October 1917 was---one of the major countries in the world and a devoutly Christian one at that, taken over by force and turned into an atheist empire. This dreadful victory by Satan was the real impetus for Pius XI's action, whatever some nuns in the 1950s thought.

My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

If, the RCC has now changed her tune then what qualifies the apparition as reported by the three children in Portugal?

Many contradictions are not apparent and it is quite difficult to wade through this mess.  What is true and what is not true.

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« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2009, 09:38:53 PM »


My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

What do your grade school nuns' opinions about the effects of rosaries and novenas have anything to do with Pope Pius XI's intentions for the Leonine prayers? This is an illogical statement.

As for the nuns asking you to offer rosaries so non-Catholics could become Catholic, no harm in that, is there? If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then everybody should be Catholic. If the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, then those prayers clearly would fall on God's deaf ears.

So what is there to gripe about?

Joe, I should have more respect for you if you prayed for my conversion, because it meant you took your faith seriously.
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« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2009, 10:15:16 PM »


My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

What do your grade school nuns' opinions about the effects of rosaries and novenas have anything to do with Pope Pius XI's intentions for the Leonine prayers? This is an illogical statement.

As for the nuns asking you to offer rosaries so non-Catholics could become Catholic, no harm in that, is there? If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then everybody should be Catholic. If the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, then those prayers clearly would fall on God's deaf ears.

So what is there to gripe about?

Joe, I should have more respect for you if you prayed for my conversion, because it meant you took your faith seriously.

It had everything to do with the prayers that were recited over and over and over again.  Were were shown drawn pictures of starving people outside of Communist party restaurants wanting food or even scraps.  This made a very big impression on me.  I was told that (inspite of papal declarations which I was not aware of at this time) it was because they didnt have the advantage of the Roman Catholic church and her teachings.  At the time I was NEVER taught that Russia was a Religious state for more than a thousand years prior to the Communist revolution.  Their message came across as Russia had always been a pagan state and had to be converted to Roman Catholicism.  Dont blame me I was only a stupid kid being educated in the Roman Catholic church school system.

I now know that the babas or grandmothers in Russia where very instrumental in preseving Holy Orthodoxy in spite of the trials and persecutions that were going on.  Non-Catholics? The Holy Orthodox Church is Catholic in every way and has been in it's insception since the 10th century.  Many socalled Communists were Communist simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  Otherwise what can explain the resurgence of Holy Orthodoxy post Gorbachev?

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« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2009, 11:41:49 PM »


My experience in my formative years grades 1 through 8 with the assistance of the good sisters of St. Joseph precisely stated that Russia would be converted to Catholicism provided we said a rosary every day and attended services on the 9 first Fridays.  So, who is right?  Are these women who devoted their lives to God now considered dults and uninformed?

What do your grade school nuns' opinions about the effects of rosaries and novenas have anything to do with Pope Pius XI's intentions for the Leonine prayers? This is an illogical statement.

As for the nuns asking you to offer rosaries so non-Catholics could become Catholic, no harm in that, is there? If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then everybody should be Catholic. If the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, then those prayers clearly would fall on God's deaf ears.

So what is there to gripe about?

Joe, I should have more respect for you if you prayed for my conversion, because it meant you took your faith seriously.

It had everything to do with the prayers that were recited over and over and over again.  Were were shown drawn pictures of starving people outside of Communist party restaurants wanting food or even scraps.  This made a very big impression on me.  I was told that (inspite of papal declarations which I was not aware of at this time) it was because they didnt have the advantage of the Roman Catholic church and her teachings.  At the time I was NEVER taught that Russia was a Religious state for more than a thousand years prior to the Communist revolution.  Their message came across as Russia had always been a pagan state and had to be converted to Roman Catholicism.  Dont blame me I was only a stupid kid being educated in the Roman Catholic church school system.

I now know that the babas or grandmothers in Russia where very instrumental in preseving Holy Orthodoxy in spite of the trials and persecutions that were going on.  Non-Catholics? The Holy Orthodox Church is Catholic in every way and has been in it's insception since the 10th century.  Many socalled Communists were Communist simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  Otherwise what can explain the resurgence of Holy Orthodoxy post Gorbachev?



Btw, Gorbachev's mother was always a regular Church goer, and had him baptized in the Stalin era.
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« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2009, 12:16:23 AM »


Btw, Gorbachev's mother was always a regular Church goer, and had him baptized in the Stalin era.

Perhaps that explains this:

Visiting the tomb of St. Francis...


As the Russian Orthodox Church spokesman said at the time, "He is still on his way to Christianity. If he arrives, we will welcome him."
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« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2009, 12:23:21 AM »

Quote
Btw, Gorbachev's mother was always a regular Church goer, and had him baptized in the Stalin era.

Mikhail Gorbachev wasn't the only one. Boris Yeltsin was baptised as a baby within months of his birth in 1931. His biography "Against the Grain" (co-written by Misha Glenny, one of the most respected foreign correspondents of the past generation, including a long stint with the BBC) gives an evocative, and, at times, humorous, account of his baptism. It should also be noted that both Raisa Gorbachova (wife of Mikhail) and Klavdia Yeltsina (mother of Boris) were given full Orthodox funerals after their deaths. Mme Gorbachova is buried at the Novodevichy monastery near Moscow.

It is also worth remembering that both Gorbachev and Yeltsin and their families endured deprivations under the early Soviet regime, as did countless others.
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« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2009, 06:13:01 PM »



2. Now what does the Lady mean by the words "she  [Russia] will be converted?   Here is what Joaquin Alonso writes.  Fr Alonso is THE archivist of Fatima and has a 26 volume edition on Fatima to his credit.


 Father Joaquin Alonso, probably the top Fatima expert of the 20th Century. Father Alonso, who had many interviews with Sister Lucy, wrote in 1976:

". . . we should affirm that Lucia always thought that the 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian People to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church." [17]

Reference:   "La Verdad Sobre el Sacradoto de Fatima, Fatima sin mitos," Father Joaquin Alonso, (2nd edition, Ejercito Azul, Madrid, 1988) p. 78. English translation by Joseph Cain. [/b]

Original Spanish reads: ". . . podriamos decit que Lucia ha pensado siempre que "conversion" de Rusia no se entiende solo de un retorno de los pueblos de Rusia a la religion cristiano-ortodoxa, rechazando el afeismo marxista yateo de los, soviets, sino que se refiere pura y Ilanmente a la conversion total e integral du un retorno a la unica y verdadera Iglesia, la catolico-romana."

Note that the original Spanish is even more explicit than the English translation.  Russia's conversion is to the Roman Catholic Church ("Iglesia, la catolico-romana.")

Fr. Ambrose,

Interesting how a search of the internet for Fr. Joaquin Alonso the first two sites lised are from a 1) website promoting Bayside apparitions denounced by the Catholic Church and 2) denounced and suspended priest Nicholas Gruner's Fatima Network site:

http://www.tldm.org/news7/ThirdSecretFatherAlonso.htm

http://www.fatima.org/thirdsecret/fralonso.asp

Who appointed Fr. Joaquin archivist?  He is cretainly not listed as such any publication of the Catholic Church I can find.  In the future please refrain from quoting the above as if it were statement made by someone with authority in the Catholic Church representing its teaching.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2009, 06:18:35 PM »

Many so called Communists were Communist simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  Otherwise what can explain the resurgence of Holy Orthodoxy post Gorbachev?

Before St. Constantine many so called Pagans were Pagans simply because it was the only way to stay alive and have a life.  The Church called them apostates and imposed a severe, sometimes lifetime, penance on them upon reconversion.  Nobody is arguing Orthodoxy died in Russia but a great many had to apostacize in order for what took place to take place.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2009, 07:03:29 PM »

Who appointed Fr. Joaquin archivist?  He is cretainly not listed as such any publication of the Catholic Church I can find.  In the future please refrain from quoting the above as if it were statement made by someone with authority in the Catholic Church representing its teaching.
A web search on Fr Alonso turns him up on hundreds of Catholic sites. 
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« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2009, 07:07:43 PM »

A web search on Fr Alonso turns him up on hundreds of Catholic sites. 
And as Deacon Lance points out, these "Catholic Sites" are websites of fringe groups, many of which are condemned by the Catholic Church.

Fr. Ambrose,

Interesting how a search of the internet for Fr. Joaquin Alonso the first two sites lised are from a 1) website promoting Bayside apparitions denounced by the Catholic Church and 2) denounced and suspended priest Nicholas Gruner's Fatima Network site:

http://www.tldm.org/news7/ThirdSecretFatherAlonso.htm

http://www.fatima.org/thirdsecret/fralonso.asp

Who appointed Fr. Joaquin archivist?  He is cretainly not listed as such any publication of the Catholic Church I can find.  In the future please refrain from quoting the above as if it were statement made by someone with authority in the Catholic Church representing its teaching.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2009, 07:40:24 PM »

And as Deacon Lance points out, these "Catholic Sites" are websites of fringe groups, many of which are condemned by the Catholic Church.


There is much about Fatima and its interpretation that is fringe.

Here is the Third Secret (from the Vatican website  http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html )

Do we know which Pope is going to be killed on a mountaintop with bullets and arrows, and many bishops, priests and nuns also?

 
CONGREGATION
FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH   

THE MESSAGE
OF FATIMA       

THIRD PART OF THE “SECRET”   
 
“J.M.J.

The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fatima, on 13 July 1917.

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

Tuy-3-1-1944”.   

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« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2009, 08:14:02 PM »

And as Deacon Lance points out, these "Catholic Sites" are websites of fringe groups, many of which are condemned by the Catholic Church.


There is much about Fatima and its interpretation that is fringe.

Here is the Third Secret (from the Vatican website  http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html )

Do we know which Pope is going to be killed on a mountaintop with bullets and arrows, and many bishops, priests and nuns also?

 
CONGREGATION
FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH   

THE MESSAGE
OF FATIMA       

THIRD PART OF THE “SECRET”   
 
“J.M.J.

The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fatima, on 13 July 1917.

I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

Tuy-3-1-1944”.   



What makes this "fringe"? Is it any less "fringe" than a prophecy that the Tsar of Russia will take upon himself "the guilt of the Russian people" as though he were the Christ in some Latin understanding of soteriology?

Quote
In 1917 Metropolitan Macarius of Moscow, who alone in the Church's hierarchy had refused to accept the Provisional Government because of his oath of allegiance to the Tsar, had the following revelation in a series of dreams: "I saw a field. The Saviour was walking along a path. I went after Him, crying,

"'Lord, I am following you!'

"Finally we approached an immense arch adorned with stars. At the threshold of the arch the Saviour turned to me and said again:

"'Follow me!'

And He went into a wondrous garden, and I remained at the threshold and awoke. Soon I fell asleep again and saw myself standing in the same arch, and with the Saviour stood Tsar Nicholas. The Saviour said to the Tsar:

"'You see in My hands two cups: one which is bitter for your people and the other sweet for you.'

"The Tsar fell to his knees and for a long time begged the Lord to allow him to drink the bitter cup together with his people. The Lord did not agree for a long time, but the Tsar begged importunately. Then the Saviour drew out of the bitter cup a large glowing coal and laid it in the palm of the Tsar's hand. The Tsar began to move the coal from hand to hand and at the same time his body began to grow light, until it had become completely bright, like some radiant spirit. At this I again woke up. Falling asleep yet again, I saw an immense field covered with flowers. In the middle of the field stood the Tsar, surrounded by a multitude of people, and with his hands he was distributing manna to them. An invisible voice said at this moment:

"'The Tsar has taken the guilt of the Russian people upon himself, and the Russian people is forgiven.'" Source
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 08:14:58 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: August 02, 2009, 04:40:10 PM »

Quote
My understanding of Fatima is that the "Third Prophecy" remains secret knowledge for the Catholic Hierarchy.  One of the "Prophecies" involves the Consecration of Russia (e.g. converting Russia to Catholicism) in a bid to weaken Eastern Orthodoxy.  Orthodox Christianity does not believe in such things because they are Gnosticism, a heresy.  If anything, the Fatima Prophecies describe the fall of Roman Catholicism and nothing more.

Request to Holy Father to Consecrate Russia

Fatima.org is run by a renegade priest named Father Nicholas Gruner. he does not speak for the Church, nor would I consider him a legitimate spokesman for the Fatima movement, although his views are very much in line with anti-Vatican II traditionalists. Oddly enough, it was partly through him that I was exposed to the Byzantine Rite, when one of the conventions he organized in London, Ontario, was preceded by a Divine Liturgy at a local Ukrainian-rite Catholic church. "I wish the Roman rite were like this..."
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 04:40:44 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: August 12, 2009, 04:57:47 PM »

so did the Vatican expect that Russia would be converted to Latin rite or Eastern rite Catholicism?  No one can be serious in telling me that the RCC expects Russia to cease practicing the Orthodox form of Christianity for theirs (especially with all the bad blood between them and the Poles)?

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« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2010, 10:40:59 PM »

I always thought, and was taught, that the conversion was meant to be of the atheists who were in the process of taking over Russia, not the good Christian people who were their targets.
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