Author Topic: Asia beyond Syria  (Read 7579 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Asia beyond Syria
« on: June 17, 2011, 01:39:26 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2011, 07:10:17 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?

Are you referring to the "Asia" of the age of the councils or today's geographical definition?
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 07:53:38 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?

Are you referring to the "Asia" of the age of the councils or today's geographical definition?
Today's, "The East" of the age of the Councils.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 08:48:46 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?

Are you referring to the "Asia" of the age of the councils or today's geographical definition?
Today's, "The East" of the age of the Councils.

?
It's one or another, not both.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 08:51:49 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?

Are you referring to the "Asia" of the age of the councils or today's geographical definition?
Today's, "The East" of the age of the Councils.

?
It's one or another, not both.
It is both.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 09:03:04 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?

Are you referring to the "Asia" of the age of the councils or today's geographical definition?
Today's, "The East" of the age of the Councils.

?
It's one or another, not both.
It is both.
Lest we hijack this thread on ACROD further, let me just say I disagree with your definitions. I understand them in your use to be necessary to support another anti-EP slant, but those have become too boring  and predicable to suffer wasting any more time in "debate".
It may go against your grain but I have been told my many ACROD priests that they are happy under the EP (shock!), one even stating he would support going fully within the GOA to stay if necessary.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 09:05:27 PM by Αριστοκλής »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 11:26:46 PM »
The Spirit is descended!

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
I meant to to ask "Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions in the rest of Asia beyond Syria?

Are you referring to the "Asia" of the age of the councils or today's geographical definition?
Today's, "The East" of the age of the Councils.

?
It's one or another, not both.
It is both.
Lest we hijack this thread on ACROD further, let me just say I disagree with your definitions.

Time for maps!
This was the original Asia, Assuwa, an anti-Hittite confedration around 1400 BC that included the Trojans:

By Homer (c. 9 cent. BC?) it meant

by Herodotus, it was extened to mean:

By the time of the Roman Empire, it meant a province, but also one of the three continents

This is the world of the Councils. As the contempory St. Isidore of Seville in his Etymologiae (chapter 14, de terra et partibus):
Quote
Orbis a rotunditate circuli dictus, quia sicut rota est [...] Undique enim Oceanus circumfluens eius in circulo ambit fines. Divisus est autem trifarie: e quibus una pars Asia, altera Europa, tertia Africa nuncupatur.

The [inhabited] mass of solid land is called round after the roundness of a circle, because it is like a wheel [...] Because of this, the Ocean flowing around it is contained in a circular limit, and it is divided in three parts, one part being called Asia, the second Europe, and the third Africa
And as the Fathers recognized at the First Ecumenical Council, in canon VI:
Quote
Let the ancient customs prevail which were in vogue in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, to allow the bishop of Alexandria to have authority over all these parts, since this is also the treatment usually accorded to the bishop of Rome. Likewise with reference to Antioch, and in other provinces, let the seniority be preserved to the Churches. In general it is obvious that in the case in which anyone has been made a bishop without the Metropolitan’s approval, the great Council has prescribed that such a person must not be a Bishop. If, however, to the common vote of all, though reasonable and in accordance with an ecclesiastical Canon, two or three men object on account of a private quarrel, let the vote of the majority prevail.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_ecumenical_rudder.htm#_Toc34001967
We can see that they had one bishop in Alexandria over the green, one bishop of Rome over the pink, and one bishop in Antioch over the yellow.

or how the Romans, and the Fathers of the Councils, saw it:


and on a modern map


http://www.tusciaromana.info/3CulturaImmagini/Storia/Roma/TabulaPeutingeriana09L3-305x339.jpghttp://www.tusciaromana.info/3CulturaImmagini/Storia/Roma/TabulaPeutingeriana10L4-305x312.jpghttp://www.tusciaromana.info/3CulturaImmagini/Storia/Roma/TabulaPeutingeriana11L4-305x289.jpghttp://www.tusciaromana.info/3CulturaImmagini/Storia/Roma/TabulaPeutingeriana12L4-305x289.jpg

http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/modern/segment_8_mod_gb.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/modern/segment_9_mod_gb.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/modern/segment_10_mod_gb.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/modern/segment_11_mod_gb.jpg

The second box from the left in the ancient Roman patristic map, the seated figure, is Antioch, as in "Antioch and All the East," i.e. all the rest to the East/right, per the canon of Nicea reflecting the civil diocese the East:


I understand them in your use to be necessary to support another anti-EP slant, but those have become too boring  and predicable to suffer wasting any more time in "debate".
It may go against your grain but I have been told my many ACROD priests that they are happy under the EP (shock!), one even stating he would support going fully within the GOA to stay if necessary.
And the Palestinians in America didn't, but their thoughts on the matter were not taken into consideration.  Not to mention the bishops of the New Lands.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 11:31:13 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2011, 10:13:05 AM »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2011, 10:36:51 AM »
The Spirit is descended!

Now see what happens when you don't have the right engineer driving the train.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2011, 11:13:05 AM »
That's one for you! Maybe they didn't have a good map?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2011, 11:16:48 AM »
The Spirit is descended!
That's one for you! Maybe they didn't have a good map?
LOL. Or maybe an outdated one.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2011, 06:49:48 PM »
So, it isn't "both", as I thought.

Your Holy Trinity Mission map is dubious to say the least. (I had noticed years ago their seminary curriculum is unusually biased Slavic - so is their take on history. You really had to dig for that one, Isa.)
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2011, 07:18:46 PM »
The Spirit is descended!
So, it isn't "both", as I thought.

Your Holy Trinity Mission map is dubious to say the least. (I had noticed years ago their seminary curriculum is unusually biased Slavic - so is their take on history. You really had to dig for that one, Isa.)
Holy Trinity Mission map?  What I quoted from Holy Trinity was the canon of Nicea as translated from the the Pedalion.  I always thought St. Nikodemus was Greek.  I have a copy of the Pedalion in Greek published in the 1890's in Greek. I had thought it was the original language.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2011, 08:35:03 PM »
Quit the dodge, Isa. You used a specious map which supports your erroneous assertion to back up the correct quote. Typical of your online argumentative style, and you know it.
Unless you can tie this directly to the ACROD search for a new bishop, end of discussion for me.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2011, 12:02:27 AM »
The Spirit is descended!
Quit the dodge, Isa. You used a specious map which supports your erroneous assertion to back up the correct quote.
What specious map?

I assUme that you have no problem with the map of Assuwa, Lydia and the Persian Empire.

The 2 three continent maps (the one labeled "Eratosthenes and Strabo" and the one beloe it-I take that you are not calling the modern equivalent next to them on the right specious) I picked only because they are somewhat clear, although modern representations from the old texts.  I could have posted any number of ancient/medieval examples of T and O maps (the technical term for them) as described by Erastosthenes and Strabo, and summarized by St. Isodore whom I quoted.

The names "S[h]em," "[C]Ham," and "I/Jaf/pheth" refer to the Table of Nations from the sons of Noah (Gen. 10) imposed on the T and O map. "Oriens" marks Asia as "the East." Such schematic representations are common in manuscripts, as detailed maps would of course increase the price of a copy of Strabo, for instance (what is above is the earliest printed version, 1472).  Very few maps survive from the age of the fathers (we'll get to the one I posted).  Here is the Hereford example (1300)

but it doesn't post clearly.  But here:

1 - The Paradise, surrounded by a wall and a ring of fire.
2 - The Ganges and its delta.
3 - The fabulous island of Taphana, sometimes interpreted as Sri Lanka or Sumatra.
4 - Rivers Indus and Tigris.
5 - The Caspian Sea, and the land of Gog and Magog
6 - Babylon and the Euphrates.
7 - The Persian Gulf.
8 - The Red Sea (painted in red).
9 - Noah's Ark.
10 - The Dead Sea, Sodom and Gomorrah, with the River Jordan, coming from the Sea of Galilee; above: Lot's wife.
11 - Egypt with the River Nile.
12 - The River Nile (?), or possibly an allusion to the equatorial ocean; far outside: a land of mutants, possibly the Antipodes.
13 - The Azov Sea with rivers Don and Dnjepr; above: the Golden Fleece.
14 - Constantinople; left of it the Danube's delta.
15 - The Aegean Sea.
16 - Oversized delta of the Nile with Alexandria's Lighthouse.
17 - The legendary Norwegian Gansmir, with his skis and ski pole.
18 - Greece with Mt. Olympus, Athens and Corinth
19 - Misplaced Crete with the Minotaur's circular labyrinth.
20 - The Adriatic Sea; Italy with Rome, honoured by a popular hexameter: Roma caput mundi tenet orbis frena rotundi (Rome, the head, holds the reins of the world).
21 - Sicily and Carthage, opposing Rome, right of it.
22 - Scotland.
23 - England.
24 - Ireland.
25 - The Balearic Islands.
26 - The Strait of Gibraltar (the Pillars of Hercules).

It doesn't show the geographical knowledge of its day (the Caspian, flowing into the world ocean, was known to be land locked in 1255), but was based on earlier authorities like Saint Beatus of Liébana, who lived in the days of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, around which time he wrote his Commentary of the Apocolypse and included in it a world map, to show the missions of the Apostles.  Here is a copy of his work done c. 1050, around the time of the Great Schism.

Another MSS example of a T and O map is this one from 1255. If you go to the link and blow it up, you can see the orb that Christ holds has the T in the O

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Psalter_World_Map%2C_c.1265.jpg

A slightly different one, a "Y map" is this 3.6m x 3.6m map painted on 30 goat skins

has the East on top, and text around it commenting on the tripartite division of the world.

Here is an Arab cousin (900s), based on the same information (Ptolemy, etc.: Africa is on top, Europe bottom right)


But most maps have to be reconstructed from the details from texts, like Anaximander (c. 610 – 546 BC)


and Hecataeus of Miletus (c. 550 – 476 BC), who survives in the quotations in the Ethnika of Stephanus Byzantinus, who wrote during the height of New Rome under the Justinians.


and then Eratosthenes (276 – 194 BC), whose work extended Asia in line with the increase knowledge from Alexander's campaigns to incorporate the Persian Empire into his own, and the succeeding information brought in by Hellenism


And Posidonius (c. 150 – 130 BC), who calculated the circumference of the world, based on Erastosthenes' observations in Egypt, rather  near the present value (24,000 miles, versus 24,901)


And then Strabo (c.64 BC – 24 AD), who walked the Roman earth when Our Lord did.  His work seems to have included only maps of Europe, but the details he gives on the rest of the world can reconstruct how he envisioned the globe:

(notice the similarity to the Tabula below)

So either this is a very great conspiracy, or the maps I posted aren't specious.  The colored one just clearly shows what the texts say: e.g. Asia starts at the Tanais i.e. the Don.

The next group of maps, the disjointed ancient ones and the modern equivalents, are the only know representation of the Romanus cursus publicus (δημόσιος δρόμος, the "All Roads Lead to Rome"), which Eusebius tells us played a large role in the gathering of the bishops to Nicea for the First Ecumenical Council.  The original was made drawn up by  Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa in the days of Augustus Caesar and done in marble near the Ara Pacis, the altar commemorating the founding of the Pax Romana, in Rome.  This surviving copy, the Tabula Peutingeriana, is the only known descendent of that map, which was the map the Fathers used in/on Ecumenical Council: it shows no revisions after the 300's, by the time of the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus (431) at the latest.  As I said, it is how the Romans, and the Fathers of the Councils, saw the world.



http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch3_images/img_16a.gif
http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/segmenta_peutingeriana.jpg
You can see it up close in detail, with the links I provided above to euratlas, or go here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/TabulaPeutingeriana.jpg

The last map uses this and other maps to chart the Diocese of the East, which Antioch at first was capital and see (it was also capital briefly of the Diocese of Aegyptus, i.e. Egypt-in fact at the time of Nicea I

but the Pope of Alexandria was never under the Patriarch of Antioch). The Praefectura Praetorio Orientis/ἔπαρχότητα/ὑπαρχία τῶν πραιτωρίων τῆς ἀνατολῆς cf. Anatolia, came out of the Tetrarchy, the Empire upon which the Fathers organized the Early Church (hence "dioceses").

settled at New Rome according to the Notitia Dignatorum thus in the four pretorian prefects

Constantinople, existing at Nicea only as the Apostolic See of Byzantium suffragan to Heracleia (who still enthrones the EP), didn't have anything.  Nicomedia and Nicea served as residence of the August, but Antioch remained the capital, which Rome had for centuries preened as its alter ego in the East.  The Diocese of the East (Dioecesis Orientis  Ἐῴα Διοίκησις) was under the Comtes Orientis, who ranked with the Praetorians of the other Prefectures, sharing authority with the senior Augustus in the Prefecture of the East.  Hence, when Constantinople was given in canon 28 of Chalcedon the jurisdiction to match the Emperor's, the Fathers gave her the rest of the Praefeture of the East, i.e. the Dioceses Pontus, Asia and Thrace, going from the Diocese of the East, which remained under Antioch:
Quote
Everywhere following the decrees of the Holy Fathers, and aware of the recently recognized Canon of the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops who convened during the reign of Theodosius the Great of pious memory, who became emperor in the imperial city of Constantinople otherwise known as New Rome; we too decree and vote the same things in regard to the privileges and priorities of the most holy Church of that same Constantinople and New Rome. And this is in keeping with the fact that the Fathers naturally enough granted the priorities to the throne of Old Rome on account of her being the imperial capital. And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her. And it is arranged so that only the Metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople aforesaid, and likewise the Bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands; that is to say, that each Metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the Bishops of the province, shall ordain the Bishops of the province, just as is prescribed by the divine Canons. But the Metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses, as has been said, are to be ordained by the Archbishop of Constantinople, after the elections have first been conducted in accordance with custom, and have been reported to him.



The borders of the Dioces of the East can be seen in the maps east of the Diocese of Pontus and the Diocese of Asia, both in Asia Minor with the Western Part of the Diocese of the East, but not in the map of the Diocese of Thrace, which was not in Asia, but in Europe.  As a reminder, the Diocese of the East
The second box from the left in the ancient Roman patristic map, the seated figure, is Antioch, as in "Antioch and All the East," i.e. all the rest to the East/right, per the canon of Nicea reflecting the civil diocese the East:
includes the "rest of Asia [which, as we can see above, not only refered to the Diocese of Asia, but the rest of the continent that stretched from it Eastwards] beyond Syria," e.g. Osrhoene (Edessa, suffragan of Antioch), Mesopotamia.  Armenia, Georgia and Albania, outside the Empire, were within the sphere of the Patriarch of Antioch, as was Persia and India, also shown on the map.  The maps do not show China. Moscow first evangelized her for the Orthodox Church.

Soooo.  "The rest of Asia beyond Syria" means the same for us as it did the Fathers, except we know about China (and Japan, also evangelized by the Russians and part of Moscow's Patriarch. In fact, its native Japanese Metropolitan at one time was the most popular candidate for Patriarch of Moscow, right after Pat. Alexei II of blessed memory reposed).  And except for our "Far East," and Constantinople's share of the Prefecture of the East, our definitions of "the East" correspond as well.

Typical of your online argumentative style, and you know it.
Unless you can tie this directly to the ACROD search for a new bishop, end of discussion for me.
As in "where is ACROD going to get a new bishop," since we do know they will not get one from Amissos, and Johnston is nowhere near the Dioceses of Thrace, Asia or Pontus?   They obviously do not have a shortage in ACROD, since the OCA just benefited twice from ACROD having candidates.  Could the OCA repay the favor?  Somehow I don't see the Phanar allowing that, and given the Phanar's interference in ACROD's mother Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, I don't know if that is a source either.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 12:20:58 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2011, 09:14:10 AM »
I have to say that the recent effort to 'rerail' this thread seems like DPW/government work to me. A lot of flash and color, couple of guys standing around and not much happening.

As for me and maps, thank God for Garmin, tomtom and  GPS!

eerr...recalculating.....

Offline Chtec

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 11:31:43 PM »
As in "where is ACROD going to get a new bishop," since we do know they will not get one from Amissos, and Johnston is nowhere near the Dioceses of Thrace, Asia or Pontus?

Just FYI, Amissos was only the titular see assigned personally to Metropolitan Nicholas; it is not assigned permanently to ACROD as a jurisdiction.  Metropolitan Orestes was given Agathonikea and Bishop John had the see of Nyssa.  Even if there were candidates in Amissos, one would not have to choose from them.

David