Author Topic: Banal liturgies 'drove Anglicans away' [from RCC]: ex-Anglican theologian  (Read 1785 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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The Anglican patrimony of the new ordinariates due in Australia next year will likely enhance the liturgical culture of the post-conciliar Catholic Church, leading Australian theologian Tracey Rowland said. In November 2009, Pope Benedict announced his decision to erect personal ordinariates (non-geographical dioceses) for former Anglicans who wanted to enter into full communion with Rome while preserving liturgical and other elements of their Anglican heritage, including a certain amount of governing by consensus.

Dr Rowland, the author of Ratzinger’s Faith: the Theology of Pope Benedict XVI and Benedict XVI: A Guide for the Perplexed, said many commentators have observed an affinity between the Anglo-Catholic approaches to liturgy and the Pope’s own liturgical theology. “In particular, (Pope Benedict) is very concerned about what he has variously described as ‘parish tea party’ liturgy, ‘pastoral pragmatism’, ‘emotional primitivism’, ‘Sacro-pop’ and ‘utility music’ [in Roman Catholic parishes],” Dr Rowland told an Anglican Ordinariate Festival in Melbourne on 11 June.

Dr Rowland, a former Anglican, said that, in her personal experience, the barriers to full communion with the Catholic Church are primarily cultural rather than doctrinal. “They have been reluctant to seek full membership of the Catholic Church because of a not unreasonable belief that they would have to abandon whole elements of their Anglican cultural heritage,” Dr Rowland said. “It is precisely this problem Pope Benedict hopes the creation of an ordinariate will overcome.

“Many of my Anglican friends have long held that, for them, the major barrier to their return to full communion with the Catholic Church is precisely the banality of [Roman Catholic] parish liturgies.”
Perhaps the influx of Anglicans into the Catholic Church, will lead to more dignified liturgy, which would in turn make Catholic-Orthodox union that much more likely. In that sense, Anglicanism would serve as a bridge for the union of the Latins and the Orthodox.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 07:00:23 AM by Jetavan »
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Offline biro

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I, for one, would be happy if all they did was eliminate Marty Haugen songs.  :P
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Offline Robb

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This was in the past.  Now that former Anglicans will be given their own ordinariate and liturgical usage, they need not worry about exposure to such things.
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Offline bogdan

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the barriers to full communion with the Catholic Church are primarily cultural rather than doctrinal

This is problematic to me. I truly don't understand the minds that say culture trumps doctrine, or is at least an overriding factor. And based on the people I know (in real life) it seems Anglo-Catholics are the ones who always have this mindset.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 05:01:24 PM by bogdan »

Offline ozgeorge

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This is problematic to me. I truly don't understand the minds that say culture trumps doctrine, or is at least an overriding factor. And based on the people I know (in real life) it seems Anglo-Catholics are the ones who always have this mindset.
My thoughts exactly. And from my experience it's mainly the gay Anglo-Catholics who believe it's all about the robes, incense and pageantry.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 11:38:58 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline FrChris

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This is problematic to me. I truly don't understand the minds that say culture trumps doctrine, or is at least an overriding factor. And based on the people I know (in real life) it seems Anglo-Catholics are the ones who always have this mindset.
My thoughts exactly. And from my experience it's mainly the gay Anglo-Catholics who believe it's all about the robes, incense and pageantry.


You know, I have never thought about that until I just read it, and I think I have to agree with you! Interesting indeed!
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Offline Poppy

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from my experience it's mainly the gay Anglo-Catholics who believe it's all about the robes, incense and pageantry.

lolOl wow theres a suprise!!!

Offline ozgeorge

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This is problematic to me. I truly don't understand the minds that say culture trumps doctrine, or is at least an overriding factor. And based on the people I know (in real life) it seems Anglo-Catholics are the ones who always have this mindset.
My thoughts exactly. And from my experience it's mainly the gay Anglo-Catholics who believe it's all about the robes, incense and pageantry.


You know, I have never thought about that until I just read it, and I think I have to agree with you! Interesting indeed!

And just another observation I have is that, at least here in Australia, it is the gay Anglo-Catholics who (counterintuitively) are the most frequent and loudest opponents to the ordination of women in the Anglican Church.
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Offline WetCatechumen

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This is problematic to me. I truly don't understand the minds that say culture trumps doctrine, or is at least an overriding factor. And based on the people I know (in real life) it seems Anglo-Catholics are the ones who always have this mindset.
My thoughts exactly. And from my experience it's mainly the gay Anglo-Catholics who believe it's all about the robes, incense and pageantry.


You know, I have never thought about that until I just read it, and I think I have to agree with you! Interesting indeed!

And just another observation I have is that, at least here in Australia, it is the gay Anglo-Catholics who (counterintuitively) are the most frequent and loudest opponents to the ordination of women in the Anglican Church.
Male homosexuals tend to be misogynistic in my own limited experience.
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Offline Maria

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This was in the past.  Now that former Anglicans will be given their own ordinariate and liturgical usage, they need not worry about exposure to such things.

Since people are increasingly more mobile and are willing to relocate to find a better job, Anglican converts to Catholicism could find themselves in an area where only the Novus Ordo is served because of the reluctance of some Catholic Bishops to authorize the Traditional Mass or have an Anglican Catholic Mass available.
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Offline lubeltri

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Uh, no.

1. Bishops do not need to "authorize" celebrations in the traditional Roman rite. And they can't forbid it either. Rome has been crystal clear on this.

2. The Anglican Catholics will not be under Roman-rite bishops, they will have their own jurisdictions and their own Ordinaries. Roman-rite bishops will have nothing to do with the Anglican Catholic liturgical books. Anglican Catholics will be able to celebrate the A-C liturgy or either form of the Roman rite, their choice.

Offline ialmisry

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This is problematic to me. I truly don't understand the minds that say culture trumps doctrine, or is at least an overriding factor. And based on the people I know (in real life) it seems Anglo-Catholics are the ones who always have this mindset.
My thoughts exactly. And from my experience it's mainly the gay Anglo-Catholics who believe it's all about the robes, incense and pageantry.


You know, I have never thought about that until I just read it, and I think I have to agree with you! Interesting indeed!

And just another observation I have is that, at least here in Australia, it is the gay Anglo-Catholics who (counterintuitively) are the most frequent and loudest opponents to the ordination of women in the Anglican Church.
Male homosexuals tend to be misogynistic in my own limited experience.
Yes, a number have asked me "don't you find women deformed?" Fewer discussions are as hillarious as gay men discussing lesbianism, and lesbians discussing male gay sex.
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Offline MarkosC

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Those who know Anglicanism/ECUSA service books can correct me.....

... but my impression from the latest books (and from a few days hanging out with a decidedly low/broad church ECUSA priest) is that they allow the pastor extremely wide berth to put in what s/he wants.  So that while many "banal" things are objectively wrong according to the current Latin Catholic books (1970 missal and GIRM), much (all?) of those same things could be considered legitimate in the ECUSA. 

If so, I don't see why (what one person considers) banal liturgy is the problem.  If there is a problem, seems to be that it's a matter of celebrant's (and the laity's) knowledge of how to (and willingness to) properly worship God.   

(For my part, almost the only Anglican liturgies I've seen were under the 1662 BCP or Ordinariate BDW, and I think that, in terms of liturgical culture, they're far better than (both) the other presently available Latin Catholic liturgies)

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Offline Keble

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I, for one, would be happy if all they did was eliminate Marty Haugen songs.  :P

Surprisingly, I discovered at one funeral that Haugen isn't all that bad if you power it up with a monster Lutheran organ and a 120 voice choir.

Offline ozgeorge

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Offline biro

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Keble: well, okay then.   :) 
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Offline Keble

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Markos, it is true that the 1979 book says "may" or "on occasion" at nearly every possible opportunity. About the only things that are absolutely fixed in the eucharistic liturgy are the reading of the gospel, saying the creed on Sundays, and the anamnesis (if you aren't in Rite III you are stuck with a specific eucharistic prayer text as well). The way nearly everyone interpreted this for the first twenty years was to ignore all the options and do exactly what the book says, no "mays" or "on occasions", except most places have some eccentricity which they doggedly maintain regardless of what the book says. One should also note that Anglican books tend to say very little about manual acts (e.g. pre-1979 books only spell out exactly how the elements were to be handled during the consecration-- instructions which, BTW, were in the end widely ignored). There are parallel manuals of usage which tend to correspond to various churchmanships (e.g. Michno is the current high/broad church standard).

The flip side of this is that the general rule has always been "decently and in order". Excepting the occasional clown or jerk, in ECUSA the expectation is that whatever you do, it is to be done with solemnity and seriousness. Mechanical rattling off of the liturgy is frowned upon; if you do the liturgy fast, you really need to try to not make it sound rushed. (There are normal options one can take to speed things up at various points, for instance.) None of this is in the texts, of course, and that's really where the difference has lain. In my opinion, the 1979 texts are better written than the RC equivalents, but the real difference is the manner in which they are used.

Offline lubeltri

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Earlier I said the Anglican Catholics "will" have their own jurisdictions and ordinaries. Well, in Britain that is already the case: here is the Reverend Monsignor Keith Newton, Protonotary Apostolic, and Ordinary of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham.



The Ordinariates in Canada, Australia, and the United States are expected to be formally established late in 2011 or early 2012.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 11:50:23 PM by lubeltri »

Offline Jetavan

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Is it safe to say that Anglicans have a Pope, now?
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