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Author Topic: Orthodox Convert Suffering From Convert-itis  (Read 5804 times) Average Rating: 0
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2011, 09:49:11 AM »

Do I believe Catholicism to be right, well I can learn to see it as right

Think about this. Do you really mean what I think you mean here?

Could it be that you are simply homesick and are looking to justify yourself, now that the honeymoon is over?
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« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2011, 03:22:14 PM »

There are many stories and testimonies to the grace that is found in the Orthodox Church, and only in the Orthodox Church.  One such story that is of particular significance to me concerns the visit of Roman Catholic monk from Italy to Elder Porphyrios in Athens:

Quote
We certainly are able to say this because the catholic conscience of the Church has already said it. All those who knew him witness and confess to the holiness of the man. The abundance of miracles performed by him proclaim that he is a saint, one of the saints of our Church.

For every person who approached him, Elder Porphyrios was a revelation. This also happened with the non-Orthodox. I would like to tell you a very characteristic story.

Once, when we were at New Skete [jah777-the one on Mt. Athos obviously], we were hosting a Catholic monk who had come to Mt. Athos to learn more about how the monks live, the ascetic life and the general polity of Mt. Athos. We told him about Elder Porphyrios and when he went to Athens he went to meet him.

When Elder Porphyrios saw him, without asking him anything, he began to describe this monk's monastery in Italy and their way of life there. He even described a neighboring convent. He saw all the monks and nuns there and mentioned each one of them in specific detail.

The monk was literally dumbfounded because it was the first time in his life that he had met such a man. When he returned to Mt. Athos, he told us, "If someone had told me about these things; that he had seen and heard these things, I would never believe it. How is it possible for this person who lives in Greece to describe our monastery in Northern Italy in detail, to tell me all those details, to tell me about the monks, to tell me about the nuns, each one of them individually?" As this monk told us, when he asked Elder Porphyrios how he was able to see all these things, he answered him: "God's grace reveals the mysteries to us, the Orthodox."

Such stories, for me, are "the bottom line", and provide what no amount of argumentation or philosophy can provide.  Many are the stories of mature Roman Catholics, devout in their Roman Catholicism, who are received into the Orthodox Church by baptism and experience a grace and transformation never before experienced as Roman Catholics. 
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« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2011, 03:29:23 PM »

The Imperative:
If Orthodoxy is the truth why are you all not evangelizing diligently? If you think about it, the truth should not be hidden, so why does the Orthodox church not evaneglize as much as Rome or the Protestants? Isn't imperative?
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« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2011, 03:45:16 PM »

3. Admiration of certain Roman Saints;

There are also many pre-schism Roman saints that are beloved by Orthodox, like St. Patrick of Ireland, St. Brendan the Navigator, St. Sebastian, St. Alban of Britian, St. Augustine of Hippo, Pope St. Leo of Rome, Pope St. Gregory of Rome, Pope St. Martin of Rome, St. John Cassian, etc.

Nice post Benjamin.

Question about this part though. I know St. Augustine gets abused by many EOs in my opinion, but how can a pre-schism Saint not be an Orthodox one, in general. I am not saying that you are saying this here, but it could be implied.

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« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2011, 03:59:29 PM »

3. Admiration of certain Roman Saints;

There are also many pre-schism Roman saints that are beloved by Orthodox, like St. Patrick of Ireland, St. Brendan the Navigator, St. Sebastian, St. Alban of Britian, St. Augustine of Hippo, Pope St. Leo of Rome, Pope St. Gregory of Rome, Pope St. Martin of Rome, St. John Cassian, etc.

Nice post Benjamin.

Question about this part though. I know St. Augustine gets abused by many EOs in my opinion, but how can a pre-schism Saint not be an Orthodox one, in general. I am not saying that you are saying this here, but it could be implied.
Augustine had his problems, but many of those who are so deadset against him have never actually read what he wrote.
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« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2011, 04:25:35 PM »

The Imperative:
If Orthodoxy is the truth why are you all not evangelizing diligently? If you think about it, the truth should not be hidden, so why does the Orthodox church not evaneglize as much as Rome or the Protestants? Isn't imperative?

This is a non-sequitur, and illogical as well. While it could be argued, depending on your definition of evangelism (grabbing people by the collar, yelling at them on streetcorners?), the Orthodox are not doing such a hot job, that has nothing to do with whether or not the Orthodox Church is the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. There are various sociological/historical reasons for this, along with the fact that Orthodoxy has a different idea about evangelism.
Also if you are basing your argument on effective and widespread evangelism, then wouldn't the Mormons be the True Church?
Thus, your argument is neither true nor logical.
There may be many valid reasons to believe that the RCC is the True Church, but this ain't one of them.
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« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2011, 04:27:31 PM »

A light is not meant to be hidden. I wasnt saying that he who knocks on most doors is the true church, just that if one has the truth, why hide it? Shouldn't one do all they could to get the word out?
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2011, 04:41:18 PM »

A light is not meant to be hidden. I wasnt saying that he who knocks on most doors is the true church, just that if one has the truth, why hide it? Shouldn't one do all they could to get the word out?
That's a fair assertion, except it gets hard to define what "getting the word out" is. I mean, there are Orthodox websites, Kindle books, YouTube videos, message boards, so they're not exactly lagging behind technologically.

Are you talking about tracts, missions designed to recruit people to the church under some sort of clever "ministry"? No? What would you say that "getting the word out" is, then? Genuinely curious. I understand what you are saying, but I rather like the Orthodox approach of missions, service work, and letting our light shine through our own behavior and lives. Could we push it more? Of course; we all can. But if the Orthodox Church becomes the show of light and smoke and mirrors to attract the world, I don't think I would be too comfortable with that, either.
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2011, 04:47:05 PM »

Hola Una Mujer del Mundo, como estas?:
Missions are a good idea. And there are missions in th enooks and crannies of rural Texas, my home state. I give Orthodoxy props for that. Just here in San Antonio, I always questioned what St. Herman of Alaska would do if he were alive and well in San Antonio, TX in 2011. He would reach out to the Hispanics and perhaps have a mission for them, as they make up 60% of the city's population. Liturgies would be in Spanish and the Orthodox parishes in the inner city would not be such a bubble in its community. Instead of spending 100,000s of dollars on icons, why not launch a charitable and missionary endeavor? Start little missions or interest centers in strip malls in the suburbs and in areas in the inner city. Some local parishes do a somewhat good job, in that a local parish here (Orthodox) distributes coats and warm coffee and tracts to the homeless during Christmas time. That is what I am talking about. So Una mujer del mundo, de donde eres y fuistes catolica algun tiempo?
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2011, 05:28:45 PM »

3. Admiration of certain Roman Saints;

There are also many pre-schism Roman saints that are beloved by Orthodox, like St. Patrick of Ireland, St. Brendan the Navigator, St. Sebastian, St. Alban of Britian, St. Augustine of Hippo, Pope St. Leo of Rome, Pope St. Gregory of Rome, Pope St. Martin of Rome, St. John Cassian, etc.

Nice post Benjamin.

Question about this part though. I know St. Augustine gets abused by many EOs in my opinion, but how can a pre-schism Saint not be an Orthodox one, in general. I am not saying that you are saying this here, but it could be implied.
Augustine had his problems, but many of those who are so deadset against him have never actually read what he wrote.

It's true. St. Augustine has had plenty of historical controversy. Afterall, he is beloved by the Roman Catholics to this day for his contribution to soteriology, but the Calvinists also consider him to be a father of their soteriology, which is in no way related to historical Christian doctrine. He was, it seems, largely forgotten in the East until recently, and then bashed by those (usually converts) who find him and see all of this attributed to him, and they have a hard time reconciling him with Orthodoxy, and so they bash him. It's unfortunate.

Now, as was said, St. Augustine did have his mistakes (many of them he dismissed in his Retractions, by the way) but he is a classic story of a hedonist who encountered Christ and had his life radically altered through the prayers of his holy mother, St. Monica. St. Augustine is a model of repentence and asceticism. His spiritual writings are some of the best the west has ever produced, and deserve as much veneration as the work of other western saints such as St. Benedict or St. John Cassian.
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2011, 05:42:28 PM »

A light is not meant to be hidden. I wasnt saying that he who knocks on most doors is the true church, just that if one has the truth, why hide it? Shouldn't one do all they could to get the word out?
What are YOU doing to evangelize?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2011, 05:56:12 PM »

Good question Andrew. I got a phone call right now from a friend of mine who is a practicing Orthodox by birth. He said perhaps all my questioning, I could do soemthing about it. He said if I complain about the lack of evangelizing maybe I am called to do that. I did try some evangelizing, by writing about Orthodoxy, but I made the mistake of being polemical, on Facebook to Catholic friends of mine. Needless to say, they remained Catholic. I used to talk to coworkers and friends about my faith and what I was. But I don't know if one like me could be called to evangelize, or if roadblocks would occur. One time, I had the idea for a young adults ministry, and my Orthodox friend aforementioned, took off with th eidea (which was good since he is such a good organizer), but he took too much control over it and it floundered after a year. At least it lasted as long as it did. But the Greek parish in town, their pastor did not like the idea of a Pan Parish young adult group and stated the Greeks already had one and we should join forces with the Greeks and be under them (our group). The priests of the city thought we could have a confederacy of sorts of 3 young adult groups for the 3 parishes and meet under an umbrella, unfortunately, the leadership of our group rejected that idea. I have always wanted to do Orthodox media such as an Orthodox zine much like Death to the World, which had a lot of success in converting people. I always wanted a zine that reached out to people like myself, young, college educated, urban/suburban, but didnt know where to start. I also am a teacher by trade and would like to see an Orthodox Mother Seton (the 1st US born Roman Saint) who started the parochial school system for US Catholics. Or thought an Orthodox St Josemaria Escriva who sought holiness in ordinary life outside monasticism would be great, or an Orthodox St Joseph Moscati who was a medical doctor and remained single and a lay person for all his life in order to serve the poor thru his work. Maybe a lot of us Orthodox or Catholics are called to different ministries and we should heed the calling. After all we are all called to be Saints! How would one evangelize, what do you think?
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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2011, 06:20:33 PM »

While I don't think we NEED 100,000 icons, I don't mind the church being as it is. It's a wellspring of beauty and holiness to my soul, and I'm sure, to those who step in. Even my atheist sister seemed in awe of just the beauty itself. We're surrounded by a lot of ugliness and darkness nowadays, so I think that something like that is beneficial.

However, I think that there should be a balance. My church isn't completely "finished" with the icons, paintings, etc. They are still doing charitable work and working on the improvements to the building one bit at a time. I think that is the best approach, although I am always in favor of bumping up the giving. I am actually thinking about talking to my priest about some more charitable work in the community. That is definitely something you can do. However, we are called to be saints, no matter what we do, lay person, clergy, mother, writer, etc. A full-time mother might not be out there saving 200 souls a day, but she is spending precious time tending to the 3 souls in her household. I wouldn't dare to call her work less important than someone who has the time to evangelize.

Plus, from what I've seen at my church at least, the priest seems to be more involved in the every day lives of the church members. I am in awe when I see him talking to everyone, asking about specific people and issues. He also takes the time out for my husband and I, as catechumens, and knows about what is going on in our spiritual and work lives as well as our marriage. He's already overworked and most likely underpaid, as it is, so I think we lay people do need to step up!

But as someone coming from the evangelical church, I'm stepping away from that for the time being, because I still struggle with guilt about not "evangelizing." Let me tell you what our evangelizing was like. It was aggressive, and while it was done out of love, it didn't feel right to me at all. But I still felt guilty if I wasn't targeting my nearest Muslim friend and trying to get her to talk about God. There are different ways. Ever since we became catechumens, we've had people ask about the church and even consider joining us. Now, in their cases, they were really intimidated, and I'm not sure that a few of them will be considering Orthodoxy in the future!

I pray that they will find the peace in the Church someday, but that's their choice. My point is that my husband and I appeared to be at peace and joyful, and we talked about our process of joining the church in a way that made people want to know more. We weren't even aware that we were evangelizing -- we just couldn't keep quiet about it.

So I keep asking that question, "What can I do to serve God?" Seeing His love in others is what attracted me to the church, not a bunch of tracts. So I pray that His sinful daughter may be able to repent over her own sins and let His light shine through her, rendering God visible in the world.


(Y voy a enviarte un mensaje a tarde Wink Y no soy de un pais como Sudamerica o España, pero mi madre es de Filipinas. Cuando yo era una nina, asistí de la iglesia catolica.)
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« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2011, 10:16:56 AM »

My point is that my husband and I appeared to be at peace and joyful, and we talked about our process of joining the church in a way that made people want to know more. We weren't even aware that we were evangelizing -- we just couldn't keep quiet about it.

Now that's what I call evangelizing!

Truly I'm not singling anyone out and I don't want to sound mean or critical, though I probably will, but one of my pet peeves is people who complain, after trying something once and it didn't work out to their satisfaction.

Whatever happened to "if at once you don't succeed, try, try again."

Try it another way. Try it someone else's way. Try, try, try. Don't just try it once, shrug your shoulders and say it didn't work. And especially don't blame or put the responsibility on someone else if it doesn't work.

So what if the Greeks "always" want to be in charge? Let 'em, as long as it gets done!
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« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2011, 01:28:07 PM »

The Greeks in our city are the parish that separates itself from the Antiochian and OCA parishes. During Lent, during co celebrations on Wednesday presanctified liturgies, the Greeks usually are not there. The Greeks in town aren't well integrated into the other 2 Orthodox Churches, yet they want to lead. The Greeks also didnt like it when an Antiochian parish moved into town as they were afraid of losing members.
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« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2011, 02:02:30 PM »

The Greeks in our city are the parish that separates itself from the Antiochian and OCA parishes. During Lent, during co celebrations on Wednesday presanctified liturgies, the Greeks usually are not there. The Greeks in town aren't well integrated into the other 2 Orthodox Churches, yet they want to lead. The Greeks also didnt like it when an Antiochian parish moved into town as they were afraid of losing members.

Hmmm. Is that St. Sophia - I thought the priest was Romanian?

Maybe they would be more integrated if you let them think they were leading?
 Wink
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« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »

There is certainly more that needs to be done with evangelism, and not everyone is on the same page, but we should not expect more from others than we expect from ourselves. You want things to be provided for you, but that will not be of much avail if you do not do some work yourself in your own heart.
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« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2011, 02:11:27 PM »

Clarification:
I am in no way saying anyone on this forum is wrong in any way. I wish mainly to write about my own experiences and how I am finding fulfillment in the Catholic Churhc. Maybe some have taken offense by me stating something, but I do not wish to call anyone wrong. In this transitional period, do I entertain maybe the orthodoxy of Orthodoxy, yes I do. But I have just lately felt so empowered by the writings of Pope John Paul II and St Josemaria Escriva and the works of St Jean Baptiste de la Salle of which I can find no other anywhere else.
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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2011, 02:12:34 PM »

There is certainly more that needs to be done with evangelism, and not everyone is on the same page, but we should not expect more from others than we expect from ourselves. You want things to be provided for you, but that will not be of much avail if you do not do some work yourself in your own heart.

Good point, and one we should all take to heart!
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« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2011, 01:30:03 AM »

Differences between Roman Catholicism, Early Church, Eastern orthodoxy.

From an airplane the differences between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are not very big. Same number of sacraments and such.

From getting to the bottom line , the real problem is modifying the sacraments so you play dice regarding the validity:
1.Holy Communion for eternal life: In Apostolic times there was the understanding that flesh contains blood however Early Church did gave Holy Communion with both wine and bread.Beside this even if Early Church used leavened bread in Roman Catholic Churches unleavened bread is used like in Old Testament. In Roman Catholicims in many parishes the people receive only bread and priests get both wine and bread. Also prayers have been shortened. So in the end you play dice.

Take the example Holy water where the process of obtaining it was changed and thus in Romano Catholicism people put salt into Holy Water which does not happen in Early Church and Eastern Orthodoxy. Take Holy water from both Romano Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy and see which one resists more.

On the time of Michael the Brave he went to a city with Romano Catholic majority and wanted to built a Church and people wanted Romano Catholic Church and he wanted Eastern Orthodox. So he said, lets build the True Church, whichever it is. Some Romano Catholics said lets debate but Michael the Great said, lets look for a miracle. You prepare Holy water and I ask Eastern orthodox priests to prepare theirs. And we will put these together and after several day we will see and the water resisting more will decide. They waited several days and God sent a sign to one man and he announced Michael the Great that went with all people to Church to open Holy waters. When Romano catholic Holy water was open a stench come and was green. When Eastern orthodox Holy water was open, very clear. Like here: http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html


See, like in hOly water the changes in sacraments can be visible in invisible world.

Very usefull are prayers for the departed. In Roman Catholicism the FALSE doctrine that souls can not be helped entered so Romano Catholic Mass IN MY UNDERSTANDING does not have prayers for the departed. In Early Church and in eastern orthodox Church we have the prayers for the departed and dyptich when the name of departed is mentioned in front of God at Holy Liturgy. Miracles have shown this mentioning to save souls from Hell.

When Romano Catholics were waiting for Holy Light MIRACLE the Holy Light did not come.
When Romano Catholics enetred the Church to celebrate Holy Liturgy with Orthodox , eastern orthodox being pressured by Emperror, God destroyed 2 Churches killing many inside. The Eastern orthodox monks killed did give a bad smell even until today with hair and nails growing. So looks like , Romano Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy are not the same.

You are right, it is bad that there is no as much mission as it should be. However the problem may have arrisen from communism problem that weaken the Churches.

Now converting to the true Church does not mean the fight is over and that sick angel will let you alone and not try to get you back farther and farther away if possible.

Look to this miracle, how the water changes through prayer in the True Church eastern orthodox: http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html

For me I hope that Romano catholics have valid sacraments even if Holy water say that here the changes are TOO MUCH but why playing dice ? What if changes are too much at Eucharist for eternal life? Why should you nolt receive the prayers from Eastern orthodox Church when you depart. Why to be left alone because of false teachings?

When an Eastern orthodox Church went to Eastern catholicism and the priests prepare Holy Communion, wine become water. This was done to show maybe the displeasure with such departing.
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« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2011, 09:51:18 AM »

Moving away from Eastern Orthodoxy can be considered sin. If you would come from Protestantism to Romano Catholicism, that is closer to God things would be different.
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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2011, 10:17:25 AM »

Clarification:
I am in no way saying anyone on this forum is wrong in any way. I wish mainly to write about my own experiences and how I am finding fulfillment in the Catholic Churhc. Maybe some have taken offense by me stating something, but I do not wish to call anyone wrong. In this transitional period, do I entertain maybe the orthodoxy of Orthodoxy, yes I do. But I have just lately felt so empowered by the writings of Pope John Paul II and St Josemaria Escriva and the works of St Jean Baptiste de la Salle of which I can find no other anywhere else.

Can you cite specific examples from these texts which question your conversion and dedication to Orthodox Christianity?
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« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2011, 10:19:33 AM »

The Greeks in our city are the parish that separates itself from the Antiochian and OCA parishes. During Lent, during co celebrations on Wednesday presanctified liturgies, the Greeks usually are not there. The Greeks in town aren't well integrated into the other 2 Orthodox Churches, yet they want to lead. The Greeks also didnt like it when an Antiochian parish moved into town as they were afraid of losing members.

Is your convert-itis because of the Greeks in your community?   Huh  Were there incidents where Greeks didn't make you feel at home?
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« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2011, 11:22:04 AM »

But I have just lately felt so empowered by the writings of Pope John Paul II and St Josemaria Escriva and the works of St Jean Baptiste de la Salle of which I can find no other anywhere else.

I must be feeling cranky - and so I ask you in advance to forgive me if I sound mean-spirited or critical (probably the heat) but I have to ask, empowered to do what?

And have you really read all the Fathers and Orthodox writers? Seriously?
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« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2011, 12:51:08 PM »

Correction:
Catholics have prayers for the dead as prescribed in Maccabees. They even have an All Souls Day in November where the dead are prayed for and remembered. In my culture, people set up altars with pictures of their departed relatives and they are prayed for.
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« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2011, 01:20:21 PM »

Katherine of Dixie:
No worries, you haven't been mean spirited or cranky. I understand; I need to apologize if I sound polemical or divisive and behaving in behaviors not becoming a saint. I haven't read all the Church Fathers, that would probably take an eternity, but I have read a lot about them and synoposes of what they wrote. But why stop at the Church Fathers, the Church lived on into modern times and there are many great writings of Catholic holy people from th date of separation 1054 AD to the present. Pope John Paul II was an accomplished theologian and St Josemaria Escriva taught about the holiness in everyday life (not just confined to priesthood or monasticism). Even before I had doubts on Orthodoxy, I still read St Josemaria. I figured that not only the Catholic Church, but the Catholic individual has to breathe with two lungs. As a Catholic I will be endeared to the Orthodox phase I went through and pray the Jesus prayer (as it is also a catholic prayer)  and revere the eastern Catholic/Orthodox Saints like St Mary and Sarah of Egypt.
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« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2011, 01:22:07 PM »

I am empowered to live my life as a calling (the universal calling of everyone) to be a saint and live my life like a saint.
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« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2011, 03:06:45 PM »

But if you don't immerse yourself in Orthodox authors/writers, how can you know that you will not be similarly empowered by them?

It's an unfair comparison, especially since you are, I believe, fairly new to Orthodoxy.
All this seems to be based, forgive me again, only on your "feelings" or how something makes you "feel." Feelings are by definition and nature transitory - we should be careful of trusting them only.
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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2011, 03:25:59 PM »

Immersion in Orthodox Writers:
Post Separation/Schism: I have read Bishop Kallistos Ware. He is a holy man and brought a fresh approach to me in loving God & neighbor. I read 3 volumes of his work. Church Fathers pre 1054 AD in Orthodoxy are also Catholic authors. My priest in Orthodoxy suggested I not read the Philokalia. I still have an abridged copy of it though. I have read the Way of the Pilgrim and nothing about it is contradictory towards Catholicism, in fact the Catholics have an edition of it, the one I read first, with an intro by a Jesuit priest. What Orthodox authors are out there besides the Fathers & Bishop Ware? Any suggestions? I know of Frederica Mathewes-Greene, but any writings from Saints in Orthodoxy post 1054? I know of St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and Gregory Palamas, but that is about it. And they wrote mainly of monasticism. After I finish reading a trilogy by the Catholic St. Josemaria Escriva, I plan on reading St Francis de Sales's (Catholic) Finding God's Wll For You. I could go on ad infinitum about Catholic authors pist schism, but I iwll possibly save that for later. Again, any suggestions for Orthodox authors to read?
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« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2011, 03:30:30 PM »

PS: I also read Father Alexander Schmemann's Great Lent.
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« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2011, 04:11:46 PM »

What Orthodox authors are out there besides the Fathers & Bishop Ware?

I think you've just made my point, honey!

There are several threads on suggestions for books to read.
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« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2011, 04:42:03 PM »

Let me repeat again.

A muslim can feed 1 billion people , can put ten scrafs on her head and can pray 15 hours a day and because is not baptised can go to Hell. Isaia felt very Holy he saw God and spoke with God and went to Hell for hundred+ years until Jesus rescued him. ******************Jesus is not called savior because he brought better teachings, better feeling inside Church , better works, he is called savior because he brought SACRAMENTS, BAPTISM for entrance to heaven , Holy Eucharist for eternal life , confession for erasing sins ********************

So you say if I feel holy and I feel I do my share of work I am on the right path and I say after you have valid sacraments that were changed a lot in Catholicism and in Protestantism many dissapearing . If you don't have valid sacraments you can be holier like Isaiah and do works like King David.So again, Eastern Orthodox Church has sacraments as in Early Church and because opf changes changes you play dice even if you feel Holy like Isaiah or do wroks like King David

SO MY DEAR, FIND THE BEST SACRAMENTS and after that do best work.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 04:44:07 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2011, 04:48:09 PM »

It is good to read the lives of saints in particular.  There are, of course, many books of a polemical nature by former Roman Catholics who joined Orthodoxy after coming to believe that Roman Catholicism is not the true Church and lacks the grace found only in Orthodoxy.  There are also many stories of Eastern Rite Catholics who said they were not able to properly pray the Jesus Prayer or grow spiritually until they actually entered the Orthodox Church.  A lot of modern Orthodox writers should be ignored because they do not have the consciousness of the Fathers.

Regarding lives of saint, read for instance the lives of Elders of Optina or of St. Paisius (Velichkovsky) which can be obtained from here:

http://stherman.com/

These saints all wrote against Roman Catholicism, but you should not avoid them for this reason.  Rather, you should see how these God-bearing men were true dwelling places of the Holy Spirit and treasure troves of virtue.  You should see how God enlightened these men and revealed a great many spiritual mysteries to them.  You should see what kind of saints and what kind of holy men spoke against Roman Catholicism so sharply.  For instance, in a letter from St. Paisius to and Eastern Rite Catholic priest, he said that the priest must enter the Orthodox Church and should not delay, lest death overtake him and he be counted among the unbelievers.  St. Paisius read and translated the Fathers, canons, and services books continuously, and within himself the patristic spirit.  You mentioned St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, another holy man who knew, lived, and breathed the Fathers and the holy canons.  St. Nikodemos, in a commentary on the canons of the Holy Apostles, stated:

Quote
So, it being admitted that the Latins are heretics of long standing, it is evident in the very first place from this fact that they are unbaptized, in accordance with the assertions of St. Basil the Great above cited, and of the saints preceding him named Cyprian and Firmilian. Because, having become laymen as a result of their having been cut off from the Orthodox Church, they no longer have with them the grace of the Holy Spirit with which Orthodox priests perform the mysteries.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stnikodemos_latinbaptism.aspx

See the link for the entire excerpt and learn about the man who wrote these words, and the basis for his assertions, which he provides.  If you read the Orthodox saints and their lives you will see the patristic spirit, the spirit of the Fathers, the spirit of the Apostles, the mind of Christ.  You will see what they said about the heresies of Roman Catholicism which deprive so many of salvation.  Even after reading such things, you may wish to ignore it all and do whatever you like, but it would be irresponsible to not point these things out to you.   




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« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2011, 04:58:58 PM »

Correction:
Catholics have prayers for the dead as prescribed in Maccabees. They even have an All Souls Day in November where the dead are prayed for and remembered. In my culture, people set up altars with pictures of their departed relatives and they are prayed for.

As do the Orthodox.
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« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2011, 05:11:59 PM »

To show the validity of sacrament in Eastern Orthodoxy look here:
Angels comming to sing to orthodox Holy Liturgy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEAgEJqsp0o&feature=channel_video_title
Would they sing to something bad?
Orthodox comming up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBDs8JpEa8&feature=channel_video_title
Holy light comes to eastern orthodox, Jordan river retuirns to Eastern Orthodox.

Whatever you need, beside valid sacraments, if it is fellowship or others , or good books, or good works, pray and you'll get them.
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« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2011, 05:14:25 PM »

Holy Water is prepared by asking God, Holy Spirit to transform the water, and look what happens after the prayer to God to bless the water:
http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html

Jesus can give you both eternal life and entrance to heaven and forgiveness of sins and closest to Jesus, you are in Eastern Orthodox Church, yje Church started in year 33 at Jerusalem that today is Eastern orthodox along with all the Churches in the Bible beside Rome. Ephess --> orthodox, Corinth->Orthopdox, say it besie Rome and in Bible-> Orthodox.

If you want to be closest to Jesus and love Jesus from all your hearth, you will come to Eastern orthodox Church, even if you have some problems, do it for Jesus, to be close to him.
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« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2011, 05:15:31 PM »

I've never seen any Orthodox Hospitals in America, nothing like the Christian Brothers of St Jean Baptiste de la Salle who are brothers who teach in schools as part of their calling in Orthodoxy, no big presence of Orthodox in my ancestral country Mexico, not even in my mother's city of Monterrey, a city as large or larger than Greater Boston is there an Orthodox Church. There is no Orthodox St Josemaria Escriva or anything like Opus Dei. The fruits of Catholicism are immense and one cannot deny them. Where is the Orthodox Mother St Elizabeth Seton who pioneered Catholic parochial schools when Catholicism was so small in America? If St Jean Baptiste de la Salle, St Josemaria Escriva, St Elizabeth Ann Seton, St Francis de Sales, St Giuseppe Moscati, St. Juan Diego, Blessed Miguel Pro, the martyrs of Mexico during the Mexican Revolution, Blessed Isidore Bakanja, St. Josephin Bakhita of Sudan, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, St Dominic Savio (where is the Orthodox him?) and et al are somewhere that is where I want to be.
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« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2011, 05:22:42 PM »

I've never seen any Orthodox Hospitals in America, nothing like the Christian Brothers of St Jean Baptiste de la Salle who are brothers who teach in schools as part of their calling in Orthodoxy, no big presence of Orthodox in my ancestral country Mexico, not even in my mother's city of Monterrey, a city as large or larger than Greater Boston is there an Orthodox Church. There is no Orthodox St Josemaria Escriva or anything like Opus Dei. The fruits of Catholicism are immense and one cannot deny them. Where is the Orthodox Mother St Elizabeth Seton who pioneered Catholic parochial schools when Catholicism was so small in America? If St Jean Baptiste de la Salle, St Josemaria Escriva, St Elizabeth Ann Seton, St Francis de Sales, St Giuseppe Moscati, St. Juan Diego, Blessed Miguel Pro, the martyrs of Mexico during the Mexican Revolution, Blessed Isidore Bakanja, St. Josephin Bakhita of Sudan, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, St Dominic Savio (where is the Orthodox him?) and et al are somewhere that is where I want to be.

You got to be kidding.   Shocked

You're looking for one-to-one correlations between Orthodox and Catholic Holy People.  You're looking for an Orthodox equivalent to St. Elizabeth Ann Seton when there was no widespread Orthodox Christian witness in the United States of America?   Huh
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« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2011, 05:28:10 PM »

There is a widespread witness now, and still nothing like Mother Seton in Orthodoxy nor anywhere in the world.
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« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2011, 05:33:26 PM »

Fruit of Romano Catholicism:
Changing Holy Communion thus putting into jeopardy eternal life for 1 billion people.
Changing Holy Water process thus taking from people pure Holy Water.
Changing Mass thus MAYBE putting people attending into jeopardy.

My congratulations to Mother Teresa.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 05:39:00 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2011, 05:34:35 PM »

If Romano Catholicism send 1 billion people to Hell , which I believe it does not and feeds 1 billion and Eastern orthdoox send to heaven one billion people and feeds 100 000, who is better.

I say it again, look at sacraments FIRST.

If you love Mexico and believe that Mexico has the right to have BEST holy Communion and sacraments, then Mexico nmeeds Eastern orthodox Church. What do you think about this man? http://www.greekorthodoxmonastery.org/Texts%20from%20others/FOOL%20OF%20CHRIST.html

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« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2011, 05:35:45 PM »

No you all are supposedly putting people into jeopardy by not evaneglizing. You all sit there and criticize but do nothing. How Pharisaical! The Catholic Church feeds the hungry and shelters the ill. Read about some Catholic Saints and you will see Jesus in the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2011, 05:44:35 PM »

My congratulations to Mother Teresa.
Okay, THAT'S not fair.
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« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2011, 05:47:27 PM »

I agree that we have beter move ourself and start evangelizing. You go to Church SO YOU GO TO HEAVEN. YOU GO TO CHURCH FOR SACRAMENTS. If YOU WANT TO DO GOOD YOU CAN learn from every book you want. Who stops youn in Eastern orthodox Church to be like Mother Teresa? Or like this man, 1 MAN and see what he has done: http://www.greekorthodoxmonastery.org/Texts%20from%20others/FOOL%20OF%20CHRIST.html

Eastern orthodox Church is the bariccade that keeps for humanity the door to HEAVEN AND ETERNAL LIFE. You want to join the fight, it is your call. You want to desert the fight and go to other place, it is your call to. Just so you know, in heaven there is no iconoclasm thus no Protestantism, and No Romano catholicism, however in heaven there is Eastern Orthodox Church with head Jesus.

Just so you know,in the end, Romano Catholicism will come back to eastern orthodoxy.
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« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2011, 05:52:26 PM »

No you all are supposedly putting people into jeopardy by not evaneglizing. You all sit there and criticize but do nothing. How Pharisaical! The Catholic Church feeds the hungry and shelters the ill. Read about some Catholic Saints and you will see Jesus in the Catholic Church.

Now who is being judgmental? I think you're also myopic. The Orthodox feed the hungry and shelter the ill. Always have. You cannot claim the Roman Catholic Church is different by citing the ways it actually does the same things as the Orthodox Church. You have not looked, and so do not see.
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