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Author Topic: Orthodox Convert Suffering From Convert-itis  (Read 5803 times) Average Rating: 0
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stjustinmartyrorthodox
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« on: June 23, 2011, 05:38:06 PM »

Hello:
I was born a Roman Catholic and received into the catechumenate of Orthodoxy back in 2007. I was chrismated in 2008. Lately, I have been having temptations to go back to Roman Catholicism, and I admit, many of the reasons for me wanting to go back are trivial, some are not though. The main reason I have yearned to go back is that Catholicism is more convenient for me as there are more Catholic Churches here in South Texas and those churches have a plethora of minisitries, including young adult groups (I am in my early 30s). A not so trivial reason is that I had read some postings on here by a person who reverted to Catholicism and they said they could sacramentally live out a better relationship with God through Catholicism for much of the same reasons I figured I could: options to receive Eucharist daily; strong private devotions outside of Sunday liturgy/Mass; admiration of certain Roman Saints; adoration of the Eucharist; family ties, etc. I then, to test myself, looked up videos of Catholic abuses such as clown masses and stuff like that, et al., and realized I was getting myself into something not quite right. I feel Orthodoxy with is no addition nor subtraction doctrine is the true Apostolic Church, but sometimes wonder if I can worship God better as a Roman Catholic. I am much confused by this. I announced to several of my Roman friends (who initaally werent happy to see me leave Romanism) that I was becoming a R.Catholic again. One a seminarian was thrilled, but another devout Roman friend of mine said I wa sbeing wishy washy (and he is right). I wish to establish firm faith in God and whatever church truly is His. Please offer some advise, especially for those who are Orthodox on why I should remain Orthodox. Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 06:01:07 PM »

I feel Orthodoxy with is no addition nor subtraction doctrine is the true Apostolic Church...

How far are you from the nearest Orthodox parish?
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011, 06:02:31 PM »

Why did you become Orthodox in the first place?

I converted 10 years ago, not really because because of church issues, but because of Christ. To me, Christ was present in the Orthodox Church in a way He was not in the Lutheran Church. I have not looked back or anywhere else since.

We all have difficulties in spiritual life, but we must face them with conviction and resolution. And we should, I think, cultivate stability. What you describe as your reasons for wanting to go back to Roman Catholicism appear to be from convenience, also it appears you equivocate Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. To me, this shows a lack of stability and conviction. You have made the choice to become Orthodox. Even if you did not take vows, which I assume you did, you have entered into a marriage of sorts to a spotless Bride. She is not divided, nor does she have equals. So, the issue at stake is the firmness of your own heart to be true to this Bride or to break your vow and leave her. Whatever decision you make will have profound consequences.
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 06:19:54 PM »

Why did you become Orthodox in the first place?

I converted 10 years ago, not really because because of church issues, but because of Christ. To me, Christ was present in the Orthodox Church in a way He was not in the Lutheran Church. I have not looked back or anywhere else since.

We all have difficulties in spiritual life, but we must face them with conviction and resolution. And we should, I think, cultivate stability. What you describe as your reasons for wanting to go back to Roman Catholicism appear to be from convenience, also it appears you equivocate Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. To me, this shows a lack of stability and conviction. You have made the choice to become Orthodox. Even if you did not take vows, which I assume you did, you have entered into a marriage of sorts to a spotless Bride. She is not divided, nor does she have equals. So, the issue at stake is the firmness of your own heart to be true to this Bride or to break your vow and leave her. Whatever decision you make will have profound consequences.

I agree and I would add one thing. One of the key characteristics of Christian life the ascetic struggle to deny oneself. I would think that we may have different issues to overcome and that we are not always in best circumstances to do so, which in itself is yet another (but very important) issue to struggle with. It seems to me that you want an easier way for your own ascetic struggle. Instead, why don't you rejoice that being in the Orthodox Church where you now are gives you that opportunity to deny yourself in another way? It seems to me that you problem is not what you stated but a desire to do things your own way. Don't take me wrong, we all are tempted by this and we all have fallen short. But, you know deep inside that you are indeed doing just that, even though you have put forth reasonable and laudable reasons for doing so. Or, are they really that reasonable and laudable reasons or are they excuses for the deeper want--to go your own way?
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stjustinmartyrorthodox
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 06:20:29 PM »

I am about 15 -20 minutes away from an Orthodox Parish, but the one I was chrismated at is 35-45 minutes away. The Parish I had been chrismated at wouldn't let me transfer to the nearer parish. Shanghaiski is right though, this is a marriage and I cannot just leave out of convenience. I should try not to equate Romanism and Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 06:28:07 PM »

I am about 15 -20 minutes away from an Orthodox Parish, but the one I was chrismated at is 35-45 minutes away. The Parish I had been chrismated at wouldn't let me transfer to the nearer parish. Shanghaiski is right though, this is a marriage and I cannot just leave out of convenience. I should try not to equate Romanism and Orthodoxy.

How can a parish not let you transfer?? Which jurisdiction(s) are these two parishes in??
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 06:31:25 PM »

The parish I was chrismated at is OCA, the nearer parish is Antiochian. They are sister churches and get along well, it's just that there has been some sort of talk about parishes poaching members from other parishes.
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 06:32:43 PM »

Are you married? Is there much family pressure for you to revert?
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 06:35:53 PM »

The parish I was chrismated at is OCA, the nearer parish is Antiochian. They are sister churches and get along well, it's just that there has been some sort of talk about parishes poaching members from other parishes.

My opinion counts for nothing here, but as far as I am concerned, a person should attend and support their closest Orthodox parish as much as possible. People can talk all they want, you need to do what is best for your own spiritual health.
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 06:39:31 PM »

No I am not married
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 06:54:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It is written in the prologues of Roman Liturgy books which sit in the pews at most of the RC parishes I sometimes wander into to pray quietly some afternoons that it is the official position of the Roman Church not to overtly proselytize Orthodox or even Protestant, but rather as best as able to maintain an almost mutual respect for each jurisdictions respective Traditions.

That being said, folks can bash me as a euceminist all they'd like, but I agree with this.  Not only should the RC not actively recruit from Orthodox, but we should respect their boundaries as well, at let RC be RC.  So when folks reason with me from a RC background, I generally, while promoting the Truth of Orthodox, try my hardest not to recruit.  I often tell folks who are "recovering Catholics" that find themselves inspired by my own Orthodox living, that it  is not the Orthodox Church necessarily that blesses my life, but God.  So, if folks were raised Catholic or feel inherently more comfortable worshiping in an RC parish, I highly recommend these remain Catholic out my respect for that jurisdictions own housekeeping. 

If you feel the Spirit in the Roman Mass, in the Roman traditions, in the Roman ministries and fellowship, in the Roman prayers and calendar and Saints, then honestly why come to Orthodox? Perhaps God is tugging in our heart to be a Catholic? Again, I know a lot of Orthodox are going to have a lot of negative things to say or think or feel about my statement, but I stand by it, if you are a Catholic inside, stay a Catholic. 

I believe that for those who are Catholic, the Roman jurisdiction is as validly Apostolic as is say an Armenian for an Armenian, even though some in the Russian or EO jurisdictions would condemn Armenians as Oriental heretics.  This is all really silly if you ask me.  If the EO has certain region/jurisdictional teachings, they should maintain these within their own respective jurisdiction, but be careful not to step on others toes who may have been guided into a slightly different course.  We've always had several overlapping jurisdictions that maintain a certain degree of day to day autonomy, and its only after the two major schisms that we have began to overemphasize our differences rather than our Universal sames.

So again, pray about it, and above all else, ask your priest (and as odd as it might sound from this forum, I'd suggest you speak with both your priests, those who you were under as a RC and those who you are a catechumin under currently in Orthodox)

As I have said to others in a similar situation, maybe its just that God wants you to be a Roman Catholic?

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 07:59:49 PM »

Greetings to the OP.

I'm also currently going through the same discernment between Roman Catholic and Orthodoxy. Here is the best advice I can offer:

Above all things, try to answer this question: Where can I best grow in love for Christ?
Another important question: Did God make me to be Catholic or Orthodox?

Different people have different circumstances / dispositions and therefore end up in different ecclesiastic settings. Some people are naturally more legalistic, and being in the Catholic Church may mean they get trapped in the Catechism - this has certainly happened to converts before, and it hinders their growth in Christ. Another person may prefer the social charity work that nuns in the Catholic church do (as opposed to the more monastic lives of Orthodox nuns), and would therefore side with Catholicism to live a life like Mother Theresa's. God made us all differently. As long as the Church that you're looking into doesn't teach things that are egregiously against scripture, then God may very well be calling you there. And far be it from any of us, Catholic or Orthodox, to judge the Church alone - lest we forget, the Amish are probably much more humble than most of us.

A Catholic nun once told me, following the wrong vocation will be like wearing a shoe that doesn't fit - you may be able to get around, but it will always feel off. The same is true about spouses, and I'd also say about Churches. If you feel drawn to the Catholic Church, and it feels like it's a perfect fit, then that may be part of the way God is telling you to become Catholic. Just be honest to yourself about it.
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 08:19:19 PM »

I think everyone has struggles sometimes. I'd discuss this with my priest.  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 09:07:38 PM »

The parish I was chrismated at is OCA, the nearer parish is Antiochian. They are sister churches and get along well, it's just that there has been some sort of talk about parishes poaching members from other parishes.
"some sort of talk" does not sound like permission denied to me.
You actually have formally asked to transfer?
If you have and it has been denied that is scandalous. At the least there is no canonical reason I know that prevents you from maintaining your 'membership' at the OCA parish but attend, and receive the Gifts, at the Antiochian provided you are in good standing with the OCA until these two parishes get their act together.
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 09:15:57 PM »

The main reason I have yearned to go back is that Catholicism is more convenient for me as there are more Catholic Churches here in South Texas and those churches have a plethora of minisitries, including young adult groups (I am in my early 30s).

So, to you, the faith is a matter of convenience?  I suppose for the martyrs it would have been far more convenient to sacrifice to the pagan gods and be spared and repent later than remain steadfast and give everything for the faith that Christ bestowed to us.  I can't believe you actually made this your "main" point.  I'm sure that there are probably way more Protestant/Evangelical churches in Texas than Catholic parishes. Perhaps you should opt for the convenience of those as "convenience" is your main point for your  yearning.

Now, joking and sarcasm aside, if the lack of a plethora of ministries is a problem at your Orthodox church, what are you doing to remedy that?  Have you considered starting a young adult group?  Have you reached out to other Orthodox parishes for maybe some joint activities?  What have you done?  Instead of waiting for the "convenience" of something already being in existence for you and your benefit, maybe you are needed to make it happen.  The faith produces only fruits when it is worked upon, sometimes assiduously and arduously.  Perhaps you are being called to do that.

As far as some of your other concerns, receiving the Eucharist daily is hard to do in many Orthodox parishes as it is not normal praxis.  However, many parishes do have daily or weekly vespers or othros.  Those are as beneficial to your faith as receiving the Eucharist.  I fully believe that if more people, especially converts, would pray Orthros, they would really understand their faith so much better and be able to live it so much better.  With veneration of certain saints, I guarantee that for every post schism Roman CAtholic Saint, there is an Orthodox one to match him/her.  Orthodoxy has its own Francises of Assisi, Catherines of Siena, Bonaventures, Bernards of Clairvaux, etc.  With regards to veneration of the Eucharist, that is, frankly, a practice foreign to Eastern Orthodoxy because it is so overwhelmingly contradictory to Christ's commandments.
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 09:22:16 PM »

I am actually in South Texas which is the area that is predominately Hispanic and thus predominately Catholic. There are mor Catholic Churches here than Protestant/Evangelical ones. I am also of Hispanic descent and Christ is Christ period. Saint Paul ultimately says that love is prime.
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 10:01:06 PM »

I am actually in South Texas which is the area that is predominately Hispanic and thus predominately Catholic. There are mor Catholic Churches here than Protestant/Evangelical ones. I am also of Hispanic descent and Christ is Christ period. Saint Paul ultimately says that love is prime.
I understand your concerns. I live in "the bible belt" and we have a Baptist or some other Protestant church on just about every corner. Our little mission is the only Orthodox church in town. The next town over has a Greek parish and some of their members had come from our parish after leaving in a tiffy and tried to poach our members. They have a new priest now who likes us and doesn't see us as a threat (he invited our whole church to celebrate Vespers with them). Lovely people. I know it's hard not being in a similar culture with more access to other things, but know that you are not alone. Others are struggling with you in very similar situations. Hang in there. Endure to the end. Smiley We're all in the race together.

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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 11:00:43 PM »

Ancillary question (because I really do not know): Are Roman Catholics free to pick and choose their parish-of-record?
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 11:30:16 PM »

I am about 15 -20 minutes away from an Orthodox Parish, but the one I was chrismated at is 35-45 minutes away. The Parish I had been chrismated at wouldn't let me transfer to the nearer parish. Shanghaiski is right though, this is a marriage and I cannot just leave out of convenience. I should try not to equate Romanism and Orthodoxy.

15-35 minutes isn't all that bad.  My closest parish is 3 hours away Grin
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 11:58:16 PM »

I am actually in South Texas which is the area that is predominately Hispanic and thus predominately Catholic. There are mor Catholic Churches here than Protestant/Evangelical ones. I am also of Hispanic descent and Christ is Christ period. Saint Paul ultimately says that love is prime.

Convert-ectomy is not the cure for convert-itis.  You are being tempted to return to Roman Catholicism just because you find it more convenient than Orthodox Christianity.  I don't know why you had to tell your OCA Church that you were leaving for the Antiochian Church.  I understand that the OCA Diocese of the South and most of the Antiochian Church is in turmoil; however, think of them as struggling on a higher level than you.  Paul also said that in one's weakness, one finds strength and I am confident that you can find the strength to remain an Orthodox Christian in spite of the invitations to return back to RC.   Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 12:02:27 AM »

Ancillary question (because I really do not know): Are Roman Catholics free to pick and choose their parish-of-record?

the parish of record is the baptismal parish, no matter where you live


For example, if i lived in Phoenix, AZ, and moved to Paris, my records would always be kept in Phoenix
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 12:06:59 AM »

Ancillary question (because I really do not know): Are Roman Catholics free to pick and choose their parish-of-record?


the parish of record is the baptismal parish, no matter where you live


For example, if i lived in Phoenix, AZ, and moved to Paris, my records would always be kept in Phoenix

OK, then let me rephrase my question: Can a Roman Catholic choose his parish?
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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 12:15:40 AM »

Ancillary question (because I really do not know): Are Roman Catholics free to pick and choose their parish-of-record?


the parish of record is the baptismal parish, no matter where you live


For example, if i lived in Phoenix, AZ, and moved to Paris, my records would always be kept in Phoenix

OK, then let me rephrase my question: Can a Roman Catholic choose his parish?

yes and no, as much as i hate to say it

Yes: A catholic may register and attend whatever parish he so chooses
No. A catholic, while he may register at any parish, would be a registered non-parishoner at the church he attends, because he only belong to the parish that he lives in the territory for.
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011, 11:55:56 AM »

To me, Christ was present in the Orthodox Church in a way He was not in the Lutheran Church.

This is the most important point, along with where is the Truth, and the true Apostolic Faith to be found.

I was Lutheran born and Lutheran bred, and when I died, I'd was going to be Lutheran dead. (as we say in these parts). I never thought of being anything else. Being Lutheran was an integral and important part of my identity, my culture, my heritage and family, as well as my faith. As a matter of fact, I was in the discernment process and had been accepted to a Lutheran seminary, with the goal of being ordained.

Suffice it to say that my conversion to Orthodoxy did not meet with universal approval from my family - and I have always had a wonderful, close relationship with them. (okay, except for a few years there between say, 18 and 22! Wink) And I had to give up my dream of being a pastor. I don't want to sound whiny, but all this was really hard, and in many ways, Orthodoxy was like being the new in-law at a family reunion. You don't understand the relationships, know the stories or get the jokes. It was much "easier" in my homey Lutheran church. Orthodoxy is hard.

But though I have occasionally felt "homesick," I have never really seriously considered returning.
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 04:01:43 PM »

This sounds like a true, spiritual struggle for you. I would encourage you to speak with your priest about that which ails you. Take what you have here, weight what we say, and take it with you to him, if it helps. But this, I believe, is spiritual, and your priest should be the most important person involved in this for you.

That said, you raised a few reasons your like Catholicism. I'd like to look at those.

1. Options to receive Eucharist daily;

Not really an option in most Orthodox parishes in the US, granted. That said, we do have a full cycle of services that should be done at least on Saturday night/Sunday morning. I don't know about you, but I gain just as a much a spiritual blessing from the Vigil service as I do from Liturgy (save the actual reception of the Eucharist, of course). I just love it.

2. Strong private devotions outside of Sunday liturgy/Mass;

There are many private devotions in the Orthodox tradition. The praying of akathists and canons, molebens, etc. Also the use of the Jesus Prayer or modifying it for other saints (nothing wrong with using the chotki to pray "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" or "Holy Father John, pray to God for us," etc.

Many western devotions have also been baptized by the Western Rite Orthodox, perhaps that is something you would be interested in exploring? Where is the nearest WRO parish? There aren't many, and so maybe it couldn't be a frequent trip for you, but it might help.

3. Admiration of certain Roman Saints;

This can be problematic. That said, I know Orthodox who have a veneration of some Western saints. I know Orthodox who love St. Francis of Assisi, or St. Bernard of Clairvaux. There are also many pre-schism Roman saints that are beloved by Orthodox, like St. Patrick of Ireland, St. Brendan the Navigator, St. Sebastian, St. Alban of Britian, St. Augustine of Hippo, Pope St. Leo of Rome, Pope St. Gregory of Rome, Pope St. Martin of Rome, St. John Cassian, etc.

4. Adoration of the Eucharist;

Why do you want this? Ultimately, this issue comes down to the purpose of the Eucharist. Orthodox do worship and adore the Eucharist in the Liturgy. At the same time, Christ says, "take, eat" and not "take and look at," (to risk being a little blunt). I think this is ultimately something theological, and so I'd like to hear your thoughts on Eucharistic Adoration and why you miss it.

5. Family ties

I can't say much about this one, either. At least your family is Roman Catholic. They at least have an understanding. My parents have a Protestant background, but are not religious. They don't get me at all. I can't really relate to them in a lot of lifestyle type of issues. They don't get the importance of the daily services, the Liturgy, regular private prayers, fasting, etc. I hate using this, but...it could probably be worse.


I hope that you find where you should go on this journey.

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2011, 04:30:28 PM »

I feel Orthodoxy with is no addition nor subtraction doctrine is the true Apostolic Church, but sometimes wonder if I can worship God better as a Roman Catholic.

If you really believe in your heart that the Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ, do you believe that it would be possible to worship Him better in a church that isn't His?
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2011, 06:20:10 PM »

Hey, me again:
One time I heard in an Orthodox liturgy a sermon where the priest said what ultimately mattered was, as St Paul had said, is how much love you had to give on earth, not how theologically right one was. St Paul had concerned himself with being right, before his conversion, that he had forgotten how to love. Granted one can love their neighbor as much as themselves as an Orthodox or a Catholic; but ultimately should one choose an esoteric church based on believing they are right, but not having the love within one's self to feel comfortable in said church? Also, Jesus said his ministry is not to be hidden, nor is his church supposed to be hidden; one does not light a lamp to put it under a bushel so ot speak. The Catholic Church is visible worldwide in ways Orthodoxy is not. Many people in the West, where we live, don't even know what the Orthodox Church is. Why is the Orthodox Church so hidden as to be almost constricted as if by an anaconda? Anyways, on another hand, we had tried organizing some ministries, such as a young adults group, in my city but it floundered. Also, I get so much peace through adoration and the rosary that I feel I do not need to justify it by argument. Do I believe Catholicism to be right, well I can learn to see it as right and I see the Catholic Church as holy through what Pope John Paul II said was a sign of contradiction, something so holy it not only inspires great love but encounters great hostility too worldwide. You can look up signs of contradictions on the Net. Well I am open to anything you all have to say...Sometimes I do wonder where are the Orthodox St Josemaria Escrivas or St Joseph Monacattis, or Saints of the modern age that speak for ordinary people and not monastics. Regards
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« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2011, 06:24:54 PM »

I feel Orthodoxy with is no addition nor subtraction doctrine is the true Apostolic Church, but sometimes wonder if I can worship God better as a Roman Catholic.

There is no Eucharist in the RC.  Pope Sergius IV (1006) replaced leaven bread with unleaven bread.  Since the leaven bread represents Christ's Resurrection, he was introducing a heresy that Christ is not Resurrected.  Also, he removed the invocation of the Holy Spirit during consecration.  The Orthodox Church teaches that this is when the bread and wine are changed to Christ's Body and Blood that He promised us.  This invalidated their sacrement.  Since the Pope considered himself as Christ's representative (whereas in Orthodoxy, the clergy represent the laity to God), he made himself and all succeeding popes as witnesses of themselves to the people.  He elimated the place of the Holy Spirit and replaced Him with himself (pope).  This is blasphemy.  Top that off with his infallibilty-complex and voila...you are worshipping the pope.  It's his organization, his offering.

Is this what you want to go back too?
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2011, 06:39:30 PM »

Joasia:
From what I understand RTOC isn't even in communion with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy. Anyways, it always amazes me that people are so Pharisaical as to even invent things and myths to sustain their righteousness and they lose sight of the true Gospel. Read Matthew 25:40 Joasia and let me know how you would respond to Christ's question on the last day? He isn't going to say to the myriad scores of Christians you all were not Orthodox Christians in communion with Orthodoxy you go to hell, he is going to ask, did you do my Father's will and love Him above all else and your neighbor as yourself.
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2011, 06:45:00 PM »

I should have said I feel as Orthodoxy with a no addition nor subtraction doctrine MAYBE the One True Apostolic Church, apologies.
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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2011, 06:46:39 PM »

Joasia:
From what I understand RTOC isn't even in communion with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy. Anyways, it always amazes me that people are so Pharisaical as to even invent things and myths to sustain their righteousness and they lose sight of the true Gospel. Read Matthew 25:40 Joasia and let me know how you would respond to Christ's question on the last day? He isn't going to say to the myriad scores of Christians you all were not Orthodox Christians in communion with Orthodoxy you go to hell, he is going to ask, did you do my Father's will and love Him above all else and your neighbor as yourself.

I was giving you the facts.  There is no life without His Body and Blood in us.  I cannot offer you compromises on this matter.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2011, 06:47:40 PM »

Joasia:
The Eastern Orthodox Church Communion says the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist.
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« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2011, 06:49:37 PM »

Joasia:
The Eastern Orthodox Church Communion says the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist.

That's Ecumenism for ya.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »

That's fanatical fundamentalism for ya
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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2011, 06:55:38 PM »

Joasia:
The Eastern Orthodox Church Communion says the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist.
my (future) priest has this to say

"By baptizing someone coming from heterodox Christianity, the Church is not saying that the person did not have a relationship with Christ before. I believe that I knew Christ before coming to Orthodoxy. Rather, it is just a question of proper authority: Who has the authority to baptize?"

IF the Romans do not have the authority to baptize, then it it logical to understand that the romans do not have any sacraments, which means that there are no valid orders, and as such no Eucharist.
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« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2011, 07:40:57 PM »

Quote
St Paul had concerned himself with being right, before his conversion, that he had forgotten how to love.

Just a caveat - notice that in Catholicism (at least as I have experienced it) there is a very legalistic tendency. Even my priest said that the Catechism was unnecessarily strict in some areas of law.
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« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2011, 07:48:16 PM »

Joasia:
The Eastern Orthodox Church Communion says the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist.

I keep reading this here. No, Orthodoxy does not so state anything about such "validity".
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« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2011, 07:50:44 PM »

Joasia:
From what I understand RTOC isn't even in communion with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy. Anyways, it always amazes me that people are so Pharisaical as to even invent things and myths to sustain their righteousness and they lose sight of the true Gospel. Read Matthew 25:40 Joasia and let me know how you would respond to Christ's question on the last day? He isn't going to say to the myriad scores of Christians you all were not Orthodox Christians in communion with Orthodoxy you go to hell, he is going to ask, did you do my Father's will and love Him above all else and your neighbor as yourself.

While I'm not going to defend what Joasia is saying, and even more where he is saying it (I don't feel this is necessarily the place for such debate), it does bring up a certain point. Christ said we will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and Christ is the Truth. Both the RCC and the EOC claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. You were born RCC and left it, being apostate. If you return there from the EOC, the Orthodox will consider you apostate. Only one is the True Church, and each lay claim to this. Ultimately, I think, that has to be the question we ask. Putting away our fuzzy feelings and quirky desires...which is the True Church?

I hope you find your answer.
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« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2011, 07:56:40 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox Church Communion says the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist.

Certain individuals within the Eastern Orthodox Communion say that the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist*

Some of the Eastern Orthodox churches receive Catholics via baptism only, and among those who receive them by Chrismation it is common to see this as a completion of the graceless form of the sacrament they received from Rome. So to say that the Eastern Orthodox Church formally and unanimously accepts the validity of Roman sacraments, or to claim that those who don't are extremists, is inaccurate at best.
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« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2011, 07:57:12 PM »

Joasia:
The Eastern Orthodox Church Communion says the Catholic Church has valid sacraments and Eucharist.

I keep reading this here. No, Orthodoxy does not so state anything about such "validity".

And, as an aside, this is true. "Validity" of sacraments is a post-schism Western notion. No such thinking exists in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2011, 07:59:35 PM »

While I'm not going to defend what Joasia is saying, and even more where he is saying it (I don't feel this is necessarily the place for such debate), it does bring up a certain point. Christ said we will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and Christ is the Truth. Both the RCC and the EOC claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. You were born RCC and left it, being apostate. If you return there from the EOC, the Orthodox will consider you apostate. Only one is the True Church, and each lay claim to this. Ultimately, I think, that has to be the question we ask. Putting away our fuzzy feelings and quirky desires...which is the True Church?

I hope you find your answer.
[/quote]

I'm female. And my comment wasn't in anyway fanatical. And where I'm saying it is a post about a question of the RC and Orthodox Church.  I was just stating the facts of the RC and what happened and what the holy fathers taught.  I'm just plagerizing.  

In Christ, Joanna
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 08:33:14 PM by joasia » Logged

Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2011, 08:05:22 PM »

I guess I said the Catholic sacraments are valid because many, including myself, were received by chrismation only. So is it true, Orthodox don't believe Catholics have a valid annd/or Real Presence in their Eucharist?
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2011, 08:40:15 PM »

I guess I said the Catholic sacraments are valid because many, including myself, were received by chrismation only. So is it true, Orthodox don't believe Catholics have a valid annd/or Real Presence in their Eucharist?

BTW. To clarify.  I was received from the RC too. But, I was baptised...not in the RTOC, but the GOC.  I came to understand that sprinkling is not a baptism and I wanted to be in Christ's Church.  That's from the holy fathers, not my own feelings.  I thought I was giving you significant points that meant something.  The Great Schism and what I mentioned above are honest facts.  That's all.  But, it seems like you have already made up your mind and just want justification.  I'm sorry, I can't give you that.  This is my honest view and I certainly hope it doesn't make future posts an obsticle between us.  I hope you stay in the Orthodox Church.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2011, 08:51:34 PM »

So is it true, Orthodox don't believe Catholics have a valid annd/or Real Presence in their Eucharist?

The quick and honest answer:  some do and some don't.


Chesterton and Belloc were once visiting an Anglican church and one them genuflected to the tabernacle.

The other remonstrated:  You shouldn't do that.  There's nothing there.

The one who had genuflected replied:  Well, if He is there, He is there as a prisoner!"

Hey, don't shoot me.  I am just repeating a Chesterton-Belloc conversation.  laugh
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« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2011, 09:45:25 AM »

So is it true, Orthodox don't believe Catholics have a valid annd/or Real Presence in their Eucharist?

The quick and honest answer:  some do and some don't.


And also we really don't know. We can conjecture that, because of the Great Schism and subsequent actions, that the RCC is no longer part of the Church, but we don't know where or how or how much of God's grace is bestowed. That's His business. It's the old "we know where the Church is, but not where it isn't."
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