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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion: Particularly for Father Ambrose, NZ  (Read 10708 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2011, 03:32:06 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.

Dear Theistgal,

A good ob-gyn or a layman who has been in the pro-life "business" for a long time will tell you that the scenario that you present is so rare that it reaches very close to a statistical zero, and would be most likely to happen, if or when it happens as you describe above, because of an accident.   What you are talking about is the certain knowledge that removing the baby from the woman in case of such an accident would surely save her life.  
Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?

"Very probable"...has in so many cases been proven to be false.  To say "very probable" is again an easy way out.  Women have done astonishing things to keep their children and bring them into the world with the help of modern medicine...sometimes the women and the child have both lived full lives.  Sometimes the mother has died due to complications from the treatments and delivery, but that is the way of it, is it not.  There are near zero cases where we can say that leaving the child in the womb will definitely kill the mother.  Too many of those "very probable" cases have come out just fine in the end.

But that does not answer your question:  The Church says that the child must not be removed from the womb to die, under any circumstances,  and that ALL efforts must be employed to save both.  IF the child dies in that effort to save mother and child when the child is absolutely too tiny to survive outside the womb, then thanks God for his mercy.

And we know without doubt that the viability of a child outside of the womb is being pushed to heretofore unthinkable limits by the power of modern medicine...so the excuses of "very probable" with respect to killing an in utero infant are getting more and more and more remote.

Mary

Mary
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« Reply #136 on: January 30, 2011, 03:32:06 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
Ironic, coming from the poster who started this off-topic battle of dueling ecclesiologies.
At least I am still talking about our Churches. This isn't the "Orthodox - City-state discussion" section.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2011, 03:32:07 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Good for you!!  Very few people every flip the coin!

When you ask it that way it becomes even MORE clear that we cannot say with certitude one way or the other till the very last moment...However when it appears that there may be a choice in the final analysis, it is generally the mother who says "IF there is a choice at the end, save my child"...

But again these are not things that can be legislated in all of their particulars, in advance.

What we need is an amendment such as the one that ended the idiocy of the three/fifths compromise...and declare as part of the law of the land that every conception is a FULL human person who is protected under the supreme law of the land for their life, their liberty and their pursuits of happiness.

That is all that is necessary.  From that, and faith, the rest comes to us as we are in need.
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« Reply #138 on: January 30, 2011, 03:57:14 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.
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« Reply #139 on: January 30, 2011, 04:37:41 PM »

All I can say is that I knew a woman who bled to death after giving birth to her child. She KNEW that was a possibility and she CHOSE to go through with the pregnancy anyway, to give her baby a chance.

Sadly the baby died less than 24 hours after birth.

I consider this woman a hero because she knew the risk and CHOSE to take it.  I think most people would have understood (if not approved) if she had chosen an abortion instead.

But for me what made Stephanie a hero is that she made this CHOICE of her own free will, wirhout having the added stress of wondering if she would go to jail.

That's why I think it should remain legal.  I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a pro-abortion person because I'm not - and neither was +Stephanie+.

But I *am* in favor of having it be the pregnant woman's decision.
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« Reply #140 on: January 30, 2011, 06:20:07 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.

I think the question is whether or not you'd actively take the life of the mother to save the baby...Not just allow her to die but actively kill her as we speak so readily about actively killing an otherwise viable baby to save the mother.



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elijahmaria
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« Reply #141 on: January 30, 2011, 06:20:08 PM »

All I can say is that I knew a woman who bled to death after giving birth to her child. She KNEW that was a possibility and she CHOSE to go through with the pregnancy anyway, to give her baby a chance.

Sadly the baby died less than 24 hours after birth.

I consider this woman a hero because she knew the risk and CHOSE to take it.  I think most people would have understood (if not approved) if she had chosen an abortion instead.

But for me what made Stephanie a hero is that she made this CHOICE of her own free will, wirhout having the added stress of wondering if she would go to jail.

That's why I think it should remain legal.  I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a pro-abortion person because I'm not - and neither was +Stephanie+.

But I *am* in favor of having it be the pregnant woman's decision.

Then all killing should be legal so that when we choose not to kill, we are heroes.   It should be our choice, otherwise we are not truly free!!
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« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2011, 01:32:01 AM »

You know, it's easy to sneer at someone else's agonizing decision, when it's not someone you know.

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« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2011, 04:38:24 AM »

But I *am* in favor of having it be the pregnant woman's decision.

So what you're saying is that let's kill the baby so I can live.
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« Reply #144 on: January 31, 2011, 08:36:54 AM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.

I think the question is whether or not you'd actively take the life of the mother to save the baby...Not just allow her to die but actively kill her as we speak so readily about actively killing an otherwise viable baby to save the mother.



Is this a choice available to Catholics?  To kill the mother to secure the life of the child?
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« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2011, 11:07:40 AM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.

I think the question is whether or not you'd actively take the life of the mother to save the baby...Not just allow her to die but actively kill her as we speak so readily about actively killing an otherwise viable baby to save the mother.



Is this a choice available to Catholics?  To kill the mother to secure the life of the child?
Is that a serious question or are you playing games?
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« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2011, 11:38:06 AM »

And yet in the past some Catholic women hesitated to go to a Catholic hospital to give birth, fearing exactly that: that if it came down to a choice between mother and child, mother would lose. 

And no, I don't have any statistics (real or fancied) to back that up - but I've read enough women's fiction of the early 20th century to know that was a pretty widespread concern.
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« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2011, 11:47:18 AM »

And yet in the past some Catholic women hesitated to go to a Catholic hospital to give birth, fearing exactly that: that if it came down to a choice between mother and child, mother would lose. 

And no, I don't have any statistics (real or fancied) to back that up - but I've read enough women's fiction of the early 20th century to know that was a pretty widespread concern.

Written during the early 20th century, or written later with the setting in the early 20th century?
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« Reply #148 on: January 31, 2011, 01:02:23 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
I'm not evasive at all, and am on topic: that you don't like to stare truth in the face, and prefer to go deeper into denial in about the structure of your ecclesiastical organization isn't my problem.

Elijahmary insists we have to march in lockstep with what the sovereign of the Vatican says if we are going to join forces against liberalization of abortion laws.  We're not going to Canossa, but you all seem to overlook that. It would be like the US committing itself to Stalin's diktats to join forces to fight Hilter: the limited ways the US, Britain and France did just that took fifty years to undo, and almost didn't.
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« Reply #149 on: January 31, 2011, 01:17:45 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
I'm not evasive at all, and am on topic: that you don't like to stare truth in the face, and prefer to go deeper into denial in about the structure of your ecclesiastical organization isn't my problem.

Elijahmary insists we have to march in lockstep with what the sovereign of the Vatican says if we are going to join forces against liberalization of abortion laws.  We're not going to Canossa, but you all seem to overlook that. It would be like the US committing itself to Stalin's diktats to join forces to fight Hilter: the limited ways the US, Britain and France did just that took fifty years to undo, and almost didn't.

Wow, Canossa is one obscure reference! and I thought I was fairly knowledgeable about European history..... lol
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« Reply #150 on: January 31, 2011, 10:03:23 PM »

tuesdayschild: no, actually written in the early 20th century.

Examples: any of the novels written by Betty Smith, author of "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" - that's not the only one, just the only one I can think of right now (just had a root canal and not feeling very literary right now! Wink ).
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« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2011, 10:04:47 PM »

What about rape? What if a young girl is raped and is impregnated? It's up to her to carry out the pregnancy and raise the child, further ruining her life beyond the fact of just getting raped, but instead having the offspring of a rapist in her to remind her every second that she was brutally raped? Until the bastard child comes out, anyway. Then what? Turn your back on a newborn? Doesnt that make her the sinner? Aren't you making the victim out to be the criminal?
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« Reply #152 on: February 02, 2011, 08:05:31 AM »

What about rape? What if a young girl is raped and is impregnated? It's up to her to carry out the pregnancy and raise the child, further ruining her life beyond the fact of just getting raped, but instead having the offspring of a rapist in her to remind her every second that she was brutally raped? Until the bastard child comes out, anyway. Then what? Turn your back on a newborn? Doesnt that make her the sinner? Aren't you making the victim out to be the criminal?

While women are busy "carrying out a pregnancy" they are either carrying a real person from the moment of conception or they are not.  And if they are in every instance EXCEPT rape or incest...don't you find that strange?
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« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2011, 05:06:32 PM »

"The Archdiocese of Barcelona has announced that it has no plans to excommunicate Rev. Manuel Pousa i Engroñat, having found that the Catholic priest had not had any “primary complicity” in an abortion performed on a young woman. This was despite the Spanish priest’s autobiography in which he recounts that he had actually paid for the procedure.

Known as ‘Pare Manel’ (Father Manuel, in his native Catalonian), the priest was called to book by the diocese following the publication of a book entitled Padre Manel: Closer to earth than heaven, which consists of the results of interviews with the journalist, Francesc Bouxeda. He has served more than 30 years among the poor of the Nou Barris district of Barcelona. In the book, he recalls that he paid for a young woman’s abortion, allegedly so as to avoid putting her life at risk.

Archbishop Lluis Martinez Sistach, upon learning of the revelations, directed that a canonical law inquiry be made into the matter by diocesan judicial vicars, Rev. Xavier Bastida and Rev. Juan Benito, as well as a member of the ecclesiastical tribunal, Rev. Ramon Batlle.

On April 18, released a communiqué that noted the tribunal’s finding that “Rev. Manuel Pousa i Engroñat does not appear to have incurred a canonical punishment,” as established by Canon 1398 of the Canon Law of the Catholic Church. The article in question establishes that anyone who procures an abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication. The statement from the diocese also reiterated that the well-known priest “always exercises his work of service to the poorest and most marginalized in accordance with the teachings of the Church and its social doctrine and with respect for all human life.”

Ok, I see that only Orthodox are confused.....  Embarrassed
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« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2011, 05:34:13 PM »

/\  "The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.
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« Reply #155 on: July 12, 2011, 05:57:38 PM »

What about rape? What if a young girl is raped and is impregnated? It's up to her to carry out the pregnancy and raise the child, further ruining her life beyond the fact of just getting raped, but instead having the offspring of a rapist in her to remind her every second that she was brutally raped? Until the bastard child comes out, anyway. Then what? Turn your back on a newborn? Doesnt that make her the sinner? Aren't you making the victim out to be the criminal?

Abortion is not a rewind button.
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