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Poll
Question: Are you completely sure that your Church is true?
I'm an Orthodox, yes. - 32 (69.6%)
I'm an Orthodox, sometimes I have doubts. - 5 (10.9%)
I'm a Roman Catholic, yes. - 4 (8.7%)
I'm a Roman Catholic, sometimes I have doubts. - 4 (8.7%)
I'm a Protestant, yes. - 0 (0%)
I'm a Protestant, sometimes I have doubts. - 1 (2.2%)
Total Voters: 46

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Vadim
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« on: June 22, 2011, 12:08:42 PM »

Please, vote sincerely - that would be in your interest to see the correct results, which can be achieved only if everyone will vote sincerely.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 12:10:19 PM by Vadim » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 12:50:25 PM »

What is a point of this poll?
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 12:54:33 PM »

It's a question that's impossible to answer. "True" in what sense?
For me, it's just my church  where my ancestors lived and died and do not really care whether it's true or not. I mean, who can prove that?
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 01:06:51 PM »

What is a point of this poll?
Isn't it evident? In my opinion, it's impossible not to have constant doubts while being Roman Catholic (considering bad Popes, doctrine of infallibility etc.) or Protestant (considering that Bible explicitly says that Apostolic succession is necessary; considering also homosexual "marriages" etc.). Since that it's interesting to see whether they really have doubts.
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 01:07:58 PM »

"True" in what sense?
In the sence that it's not heretical nor schismatic.
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 01:14:07 PM »

What is a point of this poll?
Isn't it evident? In my opinion, it's impossible not to have constant doubts while being Roman Catholic (considering bad Popes, doctrine of infallibility etc.) or Protestant (considering that Bible explicitly says that Apostolic succession is necessary; considering also homosexual "marriages" etc.). Since that it's interesting to see whether they really have doubts.

Vadim, could you provide some references for this. I'm just curious and would like to see them. Thank you, if you get the time!
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 01:58:05 PM »

Vadim, could you provide some references for this. I'm just curious and would like to see them. Thank you, if you get the time!
There are many references. For example, even the Apostle Paul, who was chosen by Christ (Acts 9), was in spite of this fact ordained by the Apostles later (Acts 13:2-3).
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 02:46:48 PM »

What is a point of this poll?

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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 03:17:23 PM »

It's the best of all available options.
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 03:18:18 PM »

I vote Protestant and heck no I dont think its right....its wrong...thats why Im here Smiley


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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 03:46:34 PM »

<picture>
I'm seriously. I've read the letters of Döllinger, so from replies to him of the bishops who accepted the decisions of Vatican, it was evidently, that even they were not sure.
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »

<picture>
I'm seriously. I've read the letters of Döllinger, so from replies to him of the bishops who accepted the decisions of Vatican, it was evidently, that even they were not sure.

If you have a more nuanced or detailed question, concern, or comment, you might want to lead with it, rather than polling a bunch of the people on a Orthodox Christianity board whether they believe theirs is the True Church or if The First Advent of St. John's Chapel and Feed Store is.

FWIW.

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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 04:58:10 PM »

I believe that the RCC is the Church that Jesus envisioned while on Earth.  The whole system of having a centralized hierarchy with the Pope at the top giving orders makes more sense to me then having a federation of independent national Churches which maintain communion with each other (As with the EO's and Anglicans). 

Saying that I also feel that the RCC has no monopoly on truth or goodness.  I believe that there are both good and bad forces in this world and the world beyond and that, while the RCC may have a large chunk of the truth, it is in no way solely limited to her or any other Church for that matter.  All religions have some particles of truth in them which can work on the side of goodness and defeat evil and thus create a balance in the supernatural world around us.  This is why I don't fault many cultures for using Nazars and other charms to ward off evil. I believe that God has given us these , (especially for cultures which have no access to formal sacramental's) for such purposes.
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2011, 07:38:39 PM »

I believe that the RCC is the Church that Jesus envisioned while on Earth.  The whole system of having a centralized hierarchy with the Pope at the top giving orders makes more sense to me then having a federation of independent national Churches which maintain communion with each other (As with the EO's and Anglicans). 

Saying that I also feel that the RCC has no monopoly on truth or goodness.  I believe that there are both good and bad forces in this world and the world beyond and that, while the RCC may have a large chunk of the truth, it is in no way solely limited to her or any other Church for that matter.  All religions have some particles of truth in them which can work on the side of goodness and defeat evil and thus create a balance in the supernatural world around us.  This is why I don't fault many cultures for using Nazars and other charms to ward off evil. I believe that God has given us these , (especially for cultures which have no access to formal sacramental's) for such purposes.


See I believe the Church must have a monopoly on truth or goodness. Even if there is something to a nazar (which I don't buy anyhow) that truth belongs to Christ and the Church not to the nazar. It is Christ that gives anything truth or anything goodness. And the Church is the protector of truth (1Timothy 3:15). Without a church there would be no 'check' on truth. How can you say something is wrong if there is no place that is correct to compare it against? I'm not sure I can believe that God leaves us on earth to wander around trying to figure out what is true and what isn't. No, He points to himself and says I am the Way, the Truth, the Light. And He trusted His Church to keep sacred that Way. 
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2011, 08:33:30 PM »

Please, vote sincerely - that would be in your interest to see the correct results, which can be achieved only if everyone will vote sincerely.
I am Roman Catholic, and I voted that I am not sure.

Why? Because it is natural for us to doubt. I don't go around thinking, "Oh my God, I'm not sure if what I'm doing is right." In the face of doubt, whether justified or unjustified, I've made my choice and I'm sticking with it. Simply because I have a brief moment of terrified doubt in the existence of God or something doesn't mean that I don't still believe in him or his church.

Regardless of how I feel, I hope my actions reveal what I believe.

I would die for the faith. If the choice was between becoming Orthodox and death, I would die.

It doesn't mean that I don't, as a fallen human, doubt.
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 02:27:50 AM »

If you have a more nuanced or detailed question, concern, or comment, you might want to lead with it, rather than polling a bunch of the people on a Orthodox Christianity board whether they believe theirs is the True Church or if The First Advent of St. John's Chapel and Feed Store is.

FWIW.
Providing too much explanations in the first post could have influence on the results.

Why am I so sure about the Orthodox Church dogmas? Because I can open the Acts of Ecumenical Councils (there is free Russian translation in the internet) and read, how every single disputable issue was discussed by the both sides: bishops of the Church and the heretics. Discussion is the only way to make the truth manifest:

The Fifth Ecumenical Council, The Sentence of the Synod

"...But also the Holy Fathers, who from time to time have met in the four holy councils, following the example of the ancients, have by a common discussion, disposed of by a fixed decree the heresies and questions which had sprung up, as it was certainly known, that by common discussion when the matter in dispute was presented by each side, the light of truth expels the darkness of falsehood.

Nor is there any other way in which the truth can be made manifest when there are discussions concerning the faith, ..."

But if we look at the Pope dogma, - there never were any discussions. If we look at the protestans - no discussions, too - every protestant fraction interprets the Bible how it wants to; never they had gathered on the Council to discuss questions, as the Apostles did. And if they even did so, this council would have had no authority for them, because of "Sola Scriptura".
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 02:47:16 AM by Vadim » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 02:29:49 AM »

I don't know if it is possible to be completely 100% sure of something, but I am sure to a point of certainty that the Orthodox church I want to Join, is the true Church.
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 02:31:19 AM »

If you never have your doubts, you're probably not human.
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 03:02:27 AM »

I believe that the RCC is the Church that Jesus envisioned while on Earth.  The whole system of having a centralized hierarchy with the Pope at the top giving orders makes more sense to me then having a federation of independent national Churches which maintain communion with each other (As with the EO's and Anglicans). 

Saying that I also feel that the RCC has no monopoly on truth or goodness.  I believe that there are both good and bad forces in this world and the world beyond and that, while the RCC may have a large chunk of the truth, it is in no way solely limited to her or any other Church for that matter.  All religions have some particles of truth in them which can work on the side of goodness and defeat evil and thus create a balance in the supernatural world around us.  This is why I don't fault many cultures for using Nazars and other charms to ward off evil. I believe that God has given us these , (especially for cultures which have no access to formal sacramental's) for such purposes.


See I believe the Church must have a monopoly on truth or goodness. Even if there is something to a nazar (which I don't buy anyhow) that truth belongs to Christ and the Church not to the nazar. It is Christ that gives anything truth or anything goodness. And the Church is the protector of truth (1Timothy 3:15). Without a church there would be no 'check' on truth. How can you say something is wrong if there is no place that is correct to compare it against? I'm not sure I can believe that God leaves us on earth to wander around trying to figure out what is true and what isn't. No, He points to himself and says I am the Way, the Truth, the Light. And He trusted His Church to keep sacred that Way. 

If other religions and items like Nazars do have powers, I don't den that they ultimately come from Christ.  However I just can't believe that my Church (Or any other for that matter) Has a complete monopoly on all truth and goodness.  The Church is still the best guide though for getting the full truth on issues.
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 03:11:25 AM »


Why am I so sure about the Orthodox Church dogmas? Because I can open the Acts of Ecumenical Councils (there is free Russian translation in the internet) and read, how every single disputable issue was discussed by the both sides: bishops of the Church and the heretics. Discussion is the only way to make the truth manifest

But if we look at the Pope dogma, - there never were any discussions. If we look at the protestans - no discussions, too - every protestant fraction interprets the Bible how it wants to; never they had gathered on the Council to discuss questions, as the Apostles did. And if they even did so, this council would have had no authority for them, because of "Sola Scriptura".

I guess you fail to realize that what you are doing is the very opposite of Orthodox praxis.

In your pursuit for 'certainity' you are literalizing, intellectualizing and legalizing - all of which are the hallmarks of Western scholaricism.

Apart from your Western literalizism you also fail to acknowledge the social and cultural imperatives which also effected the decisions made by the various Councils.  
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 10:35:08 AM »

Western scholaricism

LOL
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 12:40:30 PM »

All religions have some particles of truth in them which can work on the side of goodness and defeat evil and thus create a balance in the supernatural world around us.  This is why I don't fault many cultures for using Nazars and other charms to ward off evil. I believe that God has given us these , (especially for cultures which have no access to formal sacramental's) for such purposes.

Ecumenism (a cartoon)
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2011, 04:12:52 PM »

I voted "I am a Roman Catholic, yes." That being said, I think there is much good and much to be admired and respected within the Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 04:39:32 PM »

If you never have your doubts, you're probably not human.

Faith is revealed only through doubt.
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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2011, 05:07:01 PM »

All religions have some particles of truth in them which can work on the side of goodness and defeat evil and thus create a balance in the supernatural world around us.  This is why I don't fault many cultures for using Nazars and other charms to ward off evil. I believe that God has given us these , (especially for cultures which have no access to formal sacramental's) for such purposes.

Ecumenism (a cartoon)

Ha ha
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2011, 01:58:17 PM »

Simply because I have a brief moment of terrified doubt in the existence of God or something doesn't mean that I don't still believe in him or his church.
But if you have doubts in the existence of God, you can read Bible, and your doubts will disappear, or at least reduce. The more you read Bible, the more doubts become smaller and smaller. Whereas if you have doubts in believing in the necessity of Pope, you read... what?

Here is an example, which shocked me, in which Archbishop gave no answers to questions of teacher of his youth, whom he loved:

Declarations and Letters on the Vatican Decrees 1869-1887

(p. 137) Archbishop of Munich and Freising Antonius von Steichele to Döllinger, 1878, 1879, 1886

...I feel myself impelled to put this gift into your hands also as a souvenir, Most Reverend Provost, the teacher of my youth, towards whom I have always preserved my earlier admiration and sense of gratefulness. ...

...Tomorrow you will celebrate your eightieth birthday. I hail this day with heartfelt sympathy. It is with the thankfulness of a pupil to the hoary-headed teacher, with the respect of a disciple for the honoured bearer of the richest knowledge, and with the love of an anxious bishop for the brother who unfortunately is not yet at one with him in that which is highest and most important, that I shall be hovering about you in the spirit to-morrow. ... for what gift of God could I pray more sincerely and heartily for you than for the grace that His lamp and His staff may lead you back to unity with that Church ... and to the consolation of the Holy Church, separated from unity with which, the isolated soul can surely never find rest and peace. ...

...There are but few days which pass without my thinking of you with the old love and sympathy, and without my soul being moved with anxiety and prayer for your welfare and salvation. To-day, the eve of the festival of your name-day, which you will keep to-morrow, offers me an opportunity of bearing testimony to my feelings. I too shall celebrate this festival with you, though I am sorry I cannot do so with unalloyed joy. It is tarnished by the thought that I cannot reach you the hand of brotherly love to mutual endeavours for Christ and His kingdom, that the respected teacher stands here and the grateful pupil there, that of all who are entrusted to his care the bishop must see just that one afar off whom with the love and warmth of his heart he would like to see nearest. It is this feeling which admonishes and urges your bishop to address a few friendly and well-intentioned words to his dear brother, inviting and begging him to be reconciled to the Holy Catholic Church for which he was once so ardent, and for which he has worked by spoken and written words and actions that have been so richly blessed; he also begs him further to re-enter that communion in which he once felt such happiness.

Within the last few weeks, respected Provost, you have made such friendly advances and shown such good-will towards me on occasions of our meeting, that I make this appeal to you with courage and confidence. God has added an almost unusual number of days to the term of your life, and wonderfully blessed you with strength of body and mind. But who knows how long the days of grace for returning into the bosom of the Church will still be granted to you? ...

Döllinger to Archbishop von Steichele, March 1st, 1887

<Long letter in seventeen pages, in which he briefly explains his main thoughts and arguments>

Archbishop von Steichele to Döllinger, March 19th, 1887

Reverend Provost and Reichsrath, - In your letter to me ofthe 1st inst., among other things you say: "I cannot help conjecturing that your Grace has addressed your letter to me at the instigation of colleagues, or because you were moved to it by influence from abroad." This passage of your letter requires a correction. Rest assured that I did not take that step at the instigation of colleagues, or because I was moved to it by influence from abroad. The thought of once more addressing myself to you sprang from my own heart; I carried it out with the feeling of my duty, and out of love to you. You must kindly excuse my entering into details on any other points of your letter. Always bearing the same love to you. - I remain, yours truly,
Antonius,
Archbishop of Munich and Freising.
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