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Author Topic: Avoid these Blokes??  (Read 3675 times) Average Rating: 5
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« on: June 21, 2011, 10:11:47 AM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 10:21:14 AM »

I am sure that this thread is going to start an all out battle. I am not going to start out on a negative note, and I will suggest that you stick to a list like this: Orthodox Church Fathers: http://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/fathers/.

At the very least, I think that those who would agree with Fr. Seraphim Rose's writings on the toll houses (I don't, for the record) would agree that it's too "meaty" for a new inquirer to read. Start with the first Church Fathers, I would say.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 10:22:09 AM »

For someone who is new to the Orthodox faith, it's probably a good idea to get a list of "suggested reading" from one's Priest/Spiritual Father. It's not that the author's you listed are "bad" per se, it's just that their understanding of Orthodoxy is best read when one has a strong foundation of traditional Orthodox thought.

What you must understand is that there are a lot of theologoumenons (theological opinions) within the Orthodox Church that are not dogma. These opinions vary greatly, but if not understood within the larger context of the Church, could be misinterpreted as fact.

For example, there are some who believe in the theory of "Toll Houses" and will argue the theory quite strongly. However, this is just a theory, and the belief or disbelief in Toll Houses is not critical to one's salvation.

Hope this helps.

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 10:22:22 AM »

Metropolitan Anthony who?
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 10:24:06 AM »

I think she means +Met. Anthony Bloom
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 10:31:50 AM »

I am sure that this thread is going to start an all out battle.

I hope not, i didn't mean it to. I have just been clicking on any of the link people post and reading but then some people don't seem to like certain writers so i wondered if that was just preference or if there was something seriously wrong.

Thanks for the list IsmiLiora. I think people will keep a lid on their preferences if thas what they are  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 10:33:51 AM »

For someone who is new to the Orthodox faith, it's probably a good idea to get a list of "suggested reading" from one's Priest/Spiritual Father. It's not that the author's you listed are "bad" per se, it's just that their understanding of Orthodoxy is best read when one has a strong foundation of traditional Orthodox thought.

What you must understand is that there are a lot of theologoumenons (theological opinions) within the Orthodox Church that are not dogma. These opinions vary greatly, but if not understood within the larger context of the Church, could be misinterpreted as fact.

For example, there are some who believe in the theory of "Toll Houses" and will argue the theory quite strongly. However, this is just a theory, and the belief or disbelief in Toll Houses is not critical to one's salvation.

Hope this helps.



Helps a lot, thanks!
Yeah i have avoided the toll houses thread, i have no clue even what that might mean (no explaination needed ta)
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 10:35:51 AM »

No, I am not blaming you. Someone could probably start a thread about cookies and it would reach page 230 because someone would mention the word "toll house." There are quite a few hot button topics on the board!

And do keep in mind what HandmaidenofGod said. Sometimes some of the writings Church Fathers have to be taken with a grain of salt (particularly the ascetics). You have to take the main lesson. Meat is not evil in and of itself, but gluttony is, for example.

I'm working right now, but I might pull up some specific texts later to show you some examples. Send an e-mail to a local priest or talk to him if you're having any outstanding issues with what you're reading. You can also post on the board and you'll encounter arguments on both sides. Not even the cradles seem to agree on everything!
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 10:40:07 AM »

I think that, just like anyone, they are human and prone to error. There were even some writings from the Fathers that were later reversed by themselves because they were wrong. There are both good things and "bad" things coming out of their writings. I think the difference is, we have had a few centuries go by where the Church has been able to weed out the "bad" things. Also, just like others, they had their personal opinion on matters that aren't dogma, so can be kind of iffy (just as any opinion can be).
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 12:32:25 PM »

I think she means +Met. Anthony Bloom
More likely Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky).

I don't think anyone in their right mind would consider Met Anthony (Bloom) to have written anything controversial.
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 01:19:40 PM »

I think she means +Met. Anthony Bloom
More likely Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky).

I don't think anyone in their right mind would consider Met Anthony (Bloom) to have written anything controversial.
You might be surprised.
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 01:21:08 PM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy
Nothing wrong with either of these authors. Both are excellent starting points for people new to Orthodoxy.

On the subject of Fr. Seraphim of Platina, he is completely Orthodox, as are his writings. Criticism of him comes from a class of Orthodox "intellectuals" who typically prefer western rationalism to actual Orthodox theology. I suspect that most of his critics have not even taken the time to read his book The Soul After Death due to the accusations often leveled against him. What Fr. Seraphim said and what people say he said are often two completely different realities.

On a side note, a good introduction to Orthodoxy would be the writings of St. John Chrysostom. Literally read everything attributed to him. I can't think of a more thorough introduction to the Faith.  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 02:10:05 PM »

I would suggest any inquirer & most of us laypersons also to read works by such living authors as Fr Anthony Coniaris. Just search for his works at light & life publishing. http://www.light-n-life.com/
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 07:19:35 PM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy
Nothing wrong with either of these authors. Both are excellent starting points for people new to Orthodoxy.

On the subject of Fr. Seraphim of Platina, he is completely Orthodox, as are his writings. Criticism of him comes from a class of Orthodox "intellectuals" who typically prefer western rationalism to actual Orthodox theology. I suspect that most of his critics have not even taken the time to read his book The Soul After Death due to the accusations often leveled against him. What Fr. Seraphim said and what people say he said are often two completely different realities.

On a side note, a good introduction to Orthodoxy would be the writings of St. John Chrysostom. Literally read everything attributed to him. I can't think of a more thorough introduction to the Faith.  Smiley
I have a great love and admiration for the Righteous Seraphim of Platina. He is a great inspiration to me. If I could be half the man he was by the time I reach my death bed, I would pass with great peace.

I can only echo what you said, Ioannis, but in reference to the OP, add that we should treat our clergy with a little more respect, instead of referring to them as "blokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 07:26:23 PM »

On a side note, a good introduction to Orthodoxy would be the writings of St. John Chrysostom. Literally read everything attributed to him. I can't think of a more thorough introduction to the Faith.  Smiley

Seconded!

Sometimes I inappropriately muse that if we lost everything and only St John Chrysostom remained we would still be doing pretty okay.
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 07:30:30 PM »

On a side note, a good introduction to Orthodoxy would be the writings of St. John Chrysostom. Literally read everything attributed to him. I can't think of a more thorough introduction to the Faith.  Smiley

Seconded!

Sometimes I inappropriately muse that if we lost everything and only St John Chrysostom remained we would still be doing pretty okay.
I third that! (And second you, akimori makoto).

Reading his Instructions to Catechumens is a great idea if you want to take a step forward.
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 07:35:12 PM »

I would suggest any inquirer & most of us laypersons also to read works by such living authors as Fr Anthony Coniaris. Just search for his works at light & life publishing. http://www.light-n-life.com/

Yes. My priest recommended these books when I was in the beginning of my inquiry. They are very informative.  Smiley

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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 08:13:46 PM »

I've read everything by Fr. Seraphim Rose.  His work is excellent.  AND he writes about non-Christian religions which I think you would find interesting.  He gives a great explanation about what they believe in compared to Orthodoxy.  Check out: Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.

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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 08:53:06 PM »

Quote
I think she means +Met. Anthony Bloom
More likely Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky).
I have no idea, what i read just daid met Anthony, i assumed it was short for metropolitan, maybe not lolOl

Thanks IsmiLiora, nah i knew you didn't mean it at me. Thanks for the info and the "second"s and "third"s  Smiley

Ioannis and akimori.... i have a website with allot of his homilies on it that i bookmarked. St John Chrysostom, him. I can never pronounce his name  Roll Eyes Grin and i have his music in my car.

Thanks recent convert, i have bookmarked light n life to read some later.

Seems that they are mostly preferences then and maybe maturity levels that make one or two people more acceptable reading. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote
I can only echo what you said, Ioannis, but in reference to the OP, add that we should treat our clergy with a little more respect, instead of referring to them as "blokes."

Andrew, you all are free to do that. Not being inside of any religion, i don't respect the office. My respect of people isn't about semantics, it's about stopping myself from answering you how i rli want to. I try and treat everyone with respect, (however i refer to them as) unless they give me a reason not to.

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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 09:24:31 PM »


Andrew, you all are free to do that. Not being inside of any religion, i don't respect the office. My respect of people isn't about semantics, it's about stopping myself from answering you how i rli want to. I try and treat everyone with respect, (however i refer to them as) unless they give me a reason not to.


If I might inquire, wouldn't you want someone to respect you, even if they didn't know you? Instead of calling you by your name, you'd be alright if, say someone wanted to call you by a clever 4 or 5 letter word? I don't think that would be respectful at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Her Royal Majesty "that Liz Chick." Not being English, I don't have any real reason to respect the crown other than decency and respect for her and those that do.

It's a simple gesture of respect that goes a long way. I'm sure you are familiar with the Golden Rule. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 09:29:13 PM »

I think there's a bit of a culture clash going on here.

Andrew, check out Poppy's "proud subject of her madge the royal queenie" under her name on the left.

I think Americans, generally, are much more formal than the English and Australians/New Zealanders. I wouldn't hesitate to say of my spiritual father that he's a good bloke.

Still, I think Andrew makes a good point and I don't think he's trying to give you a hard time, Poppy.
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 09:58:21 PM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy

It depends on the topic
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 12:36:02 AM »

I'm a new inquirer and I like a lot of Seraphim Rose's stuff. Can't say I agree with it all, but some of it is great.
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 02:25:17 AM »


Andrew, you all are free to do that. Not being inside of any religion, i don't respect the office. My respect of people isn't about semantics, it's about stopping myself from answering you how i rli want to. I try and treat everyone with respect, (however i refer to them as) unless they give me a reason not to.


If I might inquire, wouldn't you want someone to respect you, even if they didn't know you? Instead of calling you by your name, you'd be alright if, say someone wanted to call you by a clever 4 or 5 letter word? I don't think that would be respectful at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Her Royal Majesty "that Liz Chick." Not being English, I don't have any real reason to respect the crown other than decency and respect for her and those that do.

It's a simple gesture of respect that goes a long way. I'm sure you are familiar with the Golden Rule. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
There's a preliminary respect if you don't know someone yeah, but true respect is earned. Priest or Saint is a title, not their name so no, i wouldn't expect someone to call me Lady Poppy, and respect my title if they wern't from my country. I don't think y'all have Lords and Ladies in Virginia huh?? But i might have to put up with being called "honey" and "sweetie" as a friend of mine was called recently when she went on holiday (vacation) there.

You can call our queenie "that liz chick" if you like... haha!

As i said before, gestures of respect are more about treatment to me, than about word gymnastics.

The local priest at St Elias wasn't put off one bit that i didn't call him "Father" I just called him by his first name and he never had a problem with that. He was more glad that i was in church and asking questions. I respected him, he knew that; it was all good. I even slipped and said the F word twice!!!!  Shocked when you  have been speaking a certain way all your life its hard to change how you speak in a minute. The lady was fine though, she could see i felt awkward and immediately told me a funny story of something she did in church once that put her in a awkward spot.

So chill Andrew, it's all good. Us Brits and you Americans have got a "special" relationship according to Obama, let's not ruin it huh??  Wink

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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 02:27:05 AM »

I'm a new inquirer and I like a lot of Seraphim Rose's stuff. Can't say I agree with it all, but some of it is great.

I like his name, he has such a fierce name!!!
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 02:29:22 AM »

The local priest at St Elias wasn't put off one bit that i didn't call him "Father" I just called him by his first name and he never had a problem with that. He was more glad that i was in church and asking questions. I respected him, he knew that; it was all good. I even slipped and said the F word twice!!!!

Some of us are adults here, you can say it: filioque.  //:=|
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2011, 09:34:47 AM »

Might be a good idea to not read anything on hesychasm or out of the Philokalia until you have some years as a convert under your belt, not because it's bad just easy to misunderstand. At least this is what they keep telling me.
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 10:15:06 AM »

The local priest at St Elias wasn't put off one bit that i didn't call him "Father" I just called him by his first name and he never had a problem with that. He was more glad that i was in church and asking questions. I respected him, he knew that; it was all good. I even slipped and said the F word twice!!!!

Some of us are adults here, you can say it: filioque.  //:=|
laugh  laugh  laugh
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 10:37:49 AM »

Might be a good idea to not read anything on hesychasm or out of the Philokalia until you have some years as a convert under your belt, not because it's bad just easy to misunderstand. At least this is what they keep telling me.

Cheers Volnutt, will try and remember that. Although now you got me curious haha...
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2011, 10:52:20 AM »

I had a feeling that would happen  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2011, 06:19:16 PM »

Might be a good idea to not read anything on hesychasm or out of the Philokalia until you have some years as a convert under your belt, not because it's bad just easy to misunderstand. At least this is what they keep telling me.

Actually, that's the book I started reading because of all the spiritual context. That and the Life of St. Anthony the Great.  The holy fathers helped me see the depth of Orthodox spirituality.  But, there is a danger in trying to live by the more stricter teachings in it which were meant for ascetics.  I had no Orthodox priest to ask questions about them as I didn't go to an Orthodox Church until 6 years later. 

And now I've come to read the volumes again.  This time, many things make sense to me after living the faith.  But, for you and Poppy, I think it's okay.  At least you have somewhere to ask questions about what they wrote. 
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« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2011, 06:20:27 PM »

@joasia: out of curiosity: do you have any Polish roots?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to.
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2011, 06:34:45 PM »

@joasia: out of curiosity: do you have any Polish roots?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Tak.  Both parents and their families on both sides.  Mom from Sandomierz and dad from Posnan.  Smiley  My name is Joanna.
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2011, 06:36:04 PM »

My name is Joanna.

That wasn't difficult to find Wink
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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2011, 07:15:31 PM »

Might be a good idea to not read anything on hesychasm or out of the Philokalia until you have some years as a convert under your belt, not because it's bad just easy to misunderstand. At least this is what they keep telling me.

Actually, that's the book I started reading because of all the spiritual context. That and the Life of St. Anthony the Great.  The holy fathers helped me see the depth of Orthodox spirituality.  But, there is a danger in trying to live by the more stricter teachings in it which were meant for ascetics.  I had no Orthodox priest to ask questions about them as I didn't go to an Orthodox Church until 6 years later. 

And now I've come to read the volumes again.  This time, many things make sense to me after living the faith.  But, for you and Poppy, I think it's okay.  At least you have somewhere to ask questions about what they wrote. 
Good point. I avoid them out of my own personal issues with "mysticism," but Poppy should be ok with her priest's advice.
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« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2011, 07:21:32 PM »

I avoid them out of my own personal issues with "mysticism,"

Mysticism?  Are you referring to their state of theosis?
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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2011, 07:47:16 PM »

I avoid them out of my own personal issues with "mysticism,"

Mysticism?  Are you referring to their state of theosis?
No, I'm cool with Theosis.

Hesychasm reminds me a bit too much for comfort of TM, yoga, "centering prayer," etc. but maybe this is just my fundamentalist upbringing talking.
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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2011, 07:52:28 PM »

I avoid them out of my own personal issues with "mysticism,"

Mysticism?  Are you referring to their state of theosis?
No, I'm cool with Theosis.

Hesychasm reminds me a bit too much for comfort of TM, yoga, "centering prayer," etc. but maybe this is just my fundamentalist upbringing talking.

Ah.  I read about the differences.  Your examples are about "centering prayer" which is to go within oneself.  To be one's own universe.  The ascetics always aimed their prayers to God.  There's a big difference of focus.  This is where reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's book on the religions would come in handy.  He was buddhist before he became Orthodox.
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The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2011, 08:01:31 PM »

I avoid them out of my own personal issues with "mysticism,"

Mysticism?  Are you referring to their state of theosis?
No, I'm cool with Theosis.

Hesychasm reminds me a bit too much for comfort of TM, yoga, "centering prayer," etc. but maybe this is just my fundamentalist upbringing talking.

Ah.  I read about the differences.  Your examples are about "centering prayer" which is to go within oneself.  To be one's own universe.  The ascetics always aimed their prayers to God.  There's a big difference of focus.
Sure, but the obliteration of the rational, conscious mind seems the same in both. They might think it makes them pray more authentically but who knows what can creep in when the mind is empty like that?

I'll keep Father Rose's book in mind, though.
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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2011, 08:25:35 PM »

Sure, but the obliteration of the rational, conscious mind seems the same in both. They might think it makes them pray more authentically but who knows what can creep in when the mind is empty like that?

Hesychasm isn't about emptying the mind..that's buddhism and yoga etc.  Hesychasm is about focusing the mind towards God.  The Jesus prayer is all about calling to God for His mercy.  What is more rational and conscious than recognizing our sinfulness before God?  But, what I have seen is that emptying the mind and conscience in meditation can invite evil ones, like in the mystism of trances and automatic writing.  It's like an open invitation because we are avoiding acknowledging our sinfulness and that's what the evil one wants. Hesychasm blocks that invasion.  And the simpler versions are our morning and evening prayers.  Can you say that we are emptying our minds during that...when we are focusing on the prayers?  Just the canons of repentence and to Jesus Christ brings up so much awareness of our sinful states.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2011, 01:10:56 AM »

As a relatively new inquirer myself, I've found Kallistos Ware's works immensely informative and spiritually fulfilling. I truly believe his insight and advice is a gift from God. Haven't bothered with Seraphim Rose, though perhaps I will read him sometime out of curiosity.
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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2011, 06:50:08 AM »

Sure, but the obliteration of the rational, conscious mind seems the same in both. They might think it makes them pray more authentically but who knows what can creep in when the mind is empty like that?

Hesychasm isn't about emptying the mind..that's buddhism and yoga etc.  Hesychasm is about focusing the mind towards God.  The Jesus prayer is all about calling to God for His mercy.  What is more rational and conscious than recognizing our sinfulness before God?  But, what I have seen is that emptying the mind and conscience in meditation can invite evil ones, like in the mystism of trances and automatic writing.  It's like an open invitation because we are avoiding acknowledging our sinfulness and that's what the evil one wants. Hesychasm blocks that invasion.  And the simpler versions are our morning and evening prayers.  Can you say that we are emptying our minds during that...when we are focusing on the prayers?  Just the canons of repentence and to Jesus Christ brings up so much awareness of our sinful states.
But when the ascetics speak of "putting the mind in the heart" isn't that a cessation of conscious watchfulness? I can appreciate the idea of making awareness of sin a deep part of you, but it still seems trance-like the way I've seen it described.
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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2011, 08:36:59 AM »

But when the ascetics speak of "putting the mind in the heart" isn't that a cessation of conscious watchfulness? I can appreciate the idea of making awareness of sin a deep part of you, but it still seems trance-like the way I've seen it described.

Do you not pray from the heart or do you mouth the words without thinking of them like they do with mantras?  If you are okay with theosis, then you should know that guarding the heart is very important.  An excellent book and must have is St. Theophan the Recluse: The Path to Salvation.  He explains how the thoughts work and how we should guard the intellect (eye of the heart/soul).  There's nothing at all involved with trances.

I think you should read more about it. 
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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2011, 09:00:23 AM »

Yes, I should probably continue to read about it. Sorry if I offended.
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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2011, 10:06:23 AM »

On the subject of Fr. Seraphim of Platina, he is completely Orthodox, as are his writings. Criticism of him comes from a class of Orthodox "intellectuals" who typically prefer western rationalism to actual Orthodox theology.

That`s your opinion.
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« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2011, 10:23:13 AM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy


If you are looking for introductory material (and you don`t yet have a spiritual Father who may or may not recommend otherwise) I would recommend The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos (aka Bishop Kallistos or Timothy) Ware.  I`m not sure that it would be a good idea to delve into the Fathers right away. 
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« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2011, 10:38:22 AM »


Andrew, you all are free to do that. Not being inside of any religion, i don't respect the office. My respect of people isn't about semantics, it's about stopping myself from answering you how i rli want to. I try and treat everyone with respect, (however i refer to them as) unless they give me a reason not to.


If I might inquire, wouldn't you want someone to respect you, even if they didn't know you? Instead of calling you by your name, you'd be alright if, say someone wanted to call you by a clever 4 or 5 letter word? I don't think that would be respectful at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Her Royal Majesty "that Liz Chick." Not being English, I don't have any real reason to respect the crown other than decency and respect for her and those that do.

It's a simple gesture of respect that goes a long way. I'm sure you are familiar with the Golden Rule. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
There's a preliminary respect if you don't know someone yeah, but true respect is earned. Priest or Saint is a title, not their name so no, i wouldn't expect someone to call me Lady Poppy, and respect my title if they wern't from my country. I don't think y'all have Lords and Ladies in Virginia huh?? But i might have to put up with being called "honey" and "sweetie" as a friend of mine was called recently when she went on holiday (vacation) there.

You can call our queenie "that liz chick" if you like... haha!

As i said before, gestures of respect are more about treatment to me, than about word gymnastics.

The local priest at St Elias wasn't put off one bit that i didn't call him "Father" I just called him by his first name and he never had a problem with that. He was more glad that i was in church and asking questions. I respected him, he knew that; it was all good. I even slipped and said the F word twice!!!!  Shocked when you  have been speaking a certain way all your life its hard to change how you speak in a minute. The lady was fine though, she could see i felt awkward and immediately told me a funny story of something she did in church once that put her in a awkward spot.

So chill Andrew, it's all good. Us Brits and you Americans have got a "special" relationship according to Obama, let's not ruin it huh??  Wink



Andrew,

I would recommend the Sayings of the Desert Fathers in this book you will find authentic Orthodox spirituality. You see a great witness to Christian humility, respect,  and meekness.

Hieromonk Seraphim of Platina theological works might be a bit much to understand without a foundation in the faith, however, his I recommend Letters from Father Seraphim: From the 12-year correspondence of Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) with Father Alexey Young in this book you see the pastoral side of this wonderful man and how he stressed the Royal Path which is a moderate middle of the road mentality.

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom is a great resource for inquirers. I have not read a lot of his works but he was a witness to many of your fellow countrymen so I would recommend his writings to you. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky does not have a lot of published works but you can find a great resource in an essay on confession that was published.

Michael
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« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2011, 10:48:49 AM »

Yes, I should probably continue to read about it. Sorry if I offended.

There's no offense.  I just figured that you might have read a bit and then stopped because of your issue with mystism.  But, if you read the saints' writings, they always talk about guarding the heart and the virtues of stillness and prayer.  But, of course, this strict form of prayer is only for some who can take it, in the monastery.  Personally, I say the Jesus Prayer when I'm going to work or other places (by bus).  It keeps my mind focused on Christ and I say it with my heart and think about my sins (sometimes I'll remember a sin I need to confess and write it down for when I see my priest).    This keeps me from thinking about useless things.  Or I'll say the shorter version in Greek, Kyrio Eleison.  

And although it is a simple sentence and we repeat it, it's repeated in order to focus our minds with our hearts, but still be conscious of where we are.  If it were a trance, I  would have been hit by a bus or car a long time ago.

People would ask: where is Joasia?  Oh, I heard she fell into a trance while saying the Jesus Prayer and got hit by a bus.  Splat!!
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« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2011, 11:59:07 AM »


Andrew, you all are free to do that. Not being inside of any religion, i don't respect the office. My respect of people isn't about semantics, it's about stopping myself from answering you how i rli want to. I try and treat everyone with respect, (however i refer to them as) unless they give me a reason not to.


If I might inquire, wouldn't you want someone to respect you, even if they didn't know you? Instead of calling you by your name, you'd be alright if, say someone wanted to call you by a clever 4 or 5 letter word? I don't think that would be respectful at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Her Royal Majesty "that Liz Chick." Not being English, I don't have any real reason to respect the crown other than decency and respect for her and those that do.

It's a simple gesture of respect that goes a long way. I'm sure you are familiar with the Golden Rule. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
There's a preliminary respect if you don't know someone yeah, but true respect is earned. Priest or Saint is a title, not their name so no, i wouldn't expect someone to call me Lady Poppy, and respect my title if they wern't from my country. I don't think y'all have Lords and Ladies in Virginia huh?? But i might have to put up with being called "honey" and "sweetie" as a friend of mine was called recently when she went on holiday (vacation) there.

You can call our queenie "that liz chick" if you like... haha!

As i said before, gestures of respect are more about treatment to me, than about word gymnastics.

The local priest at St Elias wasn't put off one bit that i didn't call him "Father" I just called him by his first name and he never had a problem with that. He was more glad that i was in church and asking questions. I respected him, he knew that; it was all good. I even slipped and said the F word twice!!!!  Shocked when you  have been speaking a certain way all your life its hard to change how you speak in a minute. The lady was fine though, she could see i felt awkward and immediately told me a funny story of something she did in church once that put her in a awkward spot.

So chill Andrew, it's all good. Us Brits and you Americans have got a "special" relationship according to Obama, let's not ruin it huh??  Wink



Andrew,

I would recommend the Sayings of the Desert Fathers in this book you will find authentic Orthodox spirituality. You see a great witness to Christian humility, respect,  and meekness.

Hieromonk Seraphim of Platina theological works might be a bit much to understand without a foundation in the faith, however, his I recommend Letters from Father Seraphim: From the 12-year correspondence of Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) with Father Alexey Young in this book you see the pastoral side of this wonderful man and how he stressed the Royal Path which is a moderate middle of the road mentality.

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom is a great resource for inquirers. I have not read a lot of his works but he was a witness to many of your fellow countrymen so I would recommend his writings to you. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky does not have a lot of published works but you can find a great resource in an essay on confession that was published.

Michael
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2011, 02:00:21 PM »

It is always best to ask your Pastor and Spiritual father for guidance when you are doing a guided study of the Orthodox Church as an Inquiror. In my parish, I serve that basis as a catechumen director and have a listing of basic books with some special ones that cover specific subject areas that my pastor has approved to be used. In many parishes, the pastor  may be the only point of contact---speak to him for direction in your reading program---remember milk before meat according to the Apostle St Paul.

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« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2011, 03:29:27 PM »

Quote
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, i'm not treating them disrespectfully by calling them blokes (= men). The word "dudes" is really allot different.
And i wish you would be more honest and stop using the word "we" when really you mean ME. Now shut up about it.



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« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2011, 03:34:28 PM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy


If you are looking for introductory material (and you don`t yet have a spiritual Father who may or may not recommend otherwise) I would recommend The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos (aka Bishop Kallistos or Timothy) Ware.  I`m not sure that it would be a good idea to delve into the Fathers right away. 

Thanks pravoslavbob, i have got them two and also i have got On The Incarnation of the Word by St. Athanasius.... it's only one quid fourty on kindle right now!!! I know, amazing huh??? How cheap was that!!
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« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2011, 04:20:58 PM »

i just got back from Serbia, and everywhere we went, after learning that we were Americans they wanted to talk about Fr. Seraphim Rose. In Orthodox countries he seems to be widely accepted, and its basically only in America that he is controversial. However, it is best to follow the advice of your spiritual father.
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« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2011, 04:43:03 PM »

Quote
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, i'm not treating them disrespectfully by calling them blokes (= men). The word "dudes" is really allot different.
And i wish you would be more honest and stop using the word "we" when really you mean ME. Now shut up about it.

Poppy,

You do realize you are painting yourself into a corner here?

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« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2011, 04:47:49 PM »

It is always best to ask your Pastor and Spiritual father for guidance when you are doing a guided study of the Orthodox Church as an Inquiror. In my parish, I serve that basis as a catechumen director and have a listing of basic books with some special ones that cover specific subject areas that my pastor has approved to be used. In many parishes, the pastor  may be the only point of contact---speak to him for direction in your reading program---remember milk before meat according to the Apostle St Paul.

Thomas

Well said in theory.

Thomas some folks go to parishes where face time with the Priest is hard to come by, much less for a new person to have a "spiritual father".

Some parishes don't have any formal catechumenate. Heck, just from stories here, I've read of people shopping parishes to get into the Church with the least amount time spent.

I think OC.net can be great especially when there is a consensus among the obviously well respected folks here.

It would be great for folks new here to read the stickies so that the same questions are not asked over and over again. But that ain't likely.

My two cents.
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« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2011, 04:55:56 PM »

Quote
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, i'm not treating them disrespectfully by calling them blokes (= men). The word "dudes" is really allot different.
And i wish you would be more honest and stop using the word "we" when really you mean ME. Now shut up about it.

Poppy,

You do realize you are painting yourself into a corner here?


Oh and why do you have to put your stinking oar in??

You already know i don't like you.... because you have no code and don't say sorry when you offend someone.

So you KNOW that if you get involved in something that don't concern you .....it isn't going to be a good thing

SO i can only conclude that you MEAN to wind me up and wind the situation up

Your such a MONG!!!!! So obvious and superior you tosser



cue superior response from the mong who likes to stir up disagreements
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« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2011, 05:06:34 PM »

Quote
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, i'm not treating them disrespectfully by calling them blokes (= men). The word "dudes" is really allot different.
And i wish you would be more honest and stop using the word "we" when really you mean ME. Now shut up about it.

Poppy,

You do realize you are painting yourself into a corner here?


Oh and why do you have to put your stinking oar in??

Thought you might want to modify the post while you still could.
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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2011, 05:27:31 PM »

Quote
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, i'm not treating them disrespectfully by calling them blokes (= men). The word "dudes" is really allot different.
And i wish you would be more honest and stop using the word "we" when really you mean ME. Now shut up about it.




Perhaps, one day you will see what I mean. May God bless you. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2011, 05:31:08 PM »

Quote
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, i'm not treating them disrespectfully by calling them blokes (= men). The word "dudes" is really allot different.
And i wish you would be more honest and stop using the word "we" when really you mean ME. Now shut up about it.

Poppy,

You do realize you are painting yourself into a corner here?


Oh and why do you have to put your stinking oar in??

Thought you might want to modify the post while you still could.

Aww and don't try and look the gracious one now......after you stuck your awe in and stirred the pot up???

Why don't you both grow a pair!!!!!!!!!!

You've been warned before to steer clear from such vulgar language and personal attacks as this. To stress how important it is you learn to watch what you type on this forum so you don't flame more of our posters, you are receiving this warning to last for the next two weeks. If you think this warning unfair, please appeal it via private message to Veniamin. Thank you.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 12:08:03 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Michael L
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2011, 07:37:55 PM »


Andrew, you all are free to do that. Not being inside of any religion, i don't respect the office. My respect of people isn't about semantics, it's about stopping myself from answering you how i rli want to. I try and treat everyone with respect, (however i refer to them as) unless they give me a reason not to.


If I might inquire, wouldn't you want someone to respect you, even if they didn't know you? Instead of calling you by your name, you'd be alright if, say someone wanted to call you by a clever 4 or 5 letter word? I don't think that would be respectful at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling Her Royal Majesty "that Liz Chick." Not being English, I don't have any real reason to respect the crown other than decency and respect for her and those that do.

It's a simple gesture of respect that goes a long way. I'm sure you are familiar with the Golden Rule. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
There's a preliminary respect if you don't know someone yeah, but true respect is earned. Priest or Saint is a title, not their name so no, i wouldn't expect someone to call me Lady Poppy, and respect my title if they wern't from my country. I don't think y'all have Lords and Ladies in Virginia huh?? But i might have to put up with being called "honey" and "sweetie" as a friend of mine was called recently when she went on holiday (vacation) there.

You can call our queenie "that liz chick" if you like... haha!

As i said before, gestures of respect are more about treatment to me, than about word gymnastics.

The local priest at St Elias wasn't put off one bit that i didn't call him "Father" I just called him by his first name and he never had a problem with that. He was more glad that i was in church and asking questions. I respected him, he knew that; it was all good. I even slipped and said the F word twice!!!!  Shocked when you  have been speaking a certain way all your life its hard to change how you speak in a minute. The lady was fine though, she could see i felt awkward and immediately told me a funny story of something she did in church once that put her in a awkward spot.

So chill Andrew, it's all good. Us Brits and you Americans have got a "special" relationship according to Obama, let's not ruin it huh??  Wink



Andrew,

I would recommend the Sayings of the Desert Fathers in this book you will find authentic Orthodox spirituality. You see a great witness to Christian humility, respect,  and meekness.

Hieromonk Seraphim of Platina theological works might be a bit much to understand without a foundation in the faith, however, his I recommend Letters from Father Seraphim: From the 12-year correspondence of Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) with Father Alexey Young in this book you see the pastoral side of this wonderful man and how he stressed the Royal Path which is a moderate middle of the road mentality.

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom is a great resource for inquirers. I have not read a lot of his works but he was a witness to many of your fellow countrymen so I would recommend his writings to you. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky does not have a lot of published works but you can find a great resource in an essay on confession that was published.

Michael
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was just trying to point out that we should treat our reposed holy men with a little more honor and respect, especially in an increasingly godless culture. I'm not asking anyone to refer to them as Saints, but I wouldn't refer to them as "dudes" in American parlance either.

In Christ,
Andrew

Sorry I meant this message for poppy.
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« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2011, 04:50:19 AM »

Thanks Michael L

Now that i'm not distracted i am going over the helpfull posts and copying some of the info so i can look things up or get a hold of books.
Some of them are dirt cheap on kindle!!!
LOVE my kindle love it
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« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2011, 10:01:27 AM »

Thanks Michael L

Now that i'm not distracted i am going over the helpfull posts and copying some of the info so i can look things up or get a hold of books.
Some of them are dirt cheap on kindle!!!
LOVE my kindle love it

May I offer some advice?   Save your info and quotes that you read, from the holy fathers, on your computer.  Because you may be asked to support your comments and flipping through books takes up lots of time.  Instead you can just use the "Find" function and it will bring it up.  I wish I had a computer back when I started reading... Wink

BTW.  Have you listened to some podcasts on ancientfaith.com?  There are many subjects and you can do stuff around your place while listening.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 10:03:15 AM by joasia » Logged

Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2011, 01:37:47 AM »

Thanks Michael L

Now that i'm not distracted i am going over the helpfull posts and copying some of the info so i can look things up or get a hold of books.
Some of them are dirt cheap on kindle!!!
LOVE my kindle love it

May I offer some advice?   Save your info and quotes that you read, from the holy fathers, on your computer.  Because you may be asked to support your comments and flipping through books takes up lots of time.  Instead you can just use the "Find" function and it will bring it up.  I wish I had a computer back when I started reading... Wink

BTW.  Have you listened to some podcasts on ancientfaith.com?  There are many subjects and you can do stuff around your place while listening.

haha.... i will save them Joasia  Grin
Yeah i have been listening to some podcasts, i even started a thread about it
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« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2011, 08:06:48 AM »

Is it just preference that some people on the forums say that some of the writings of certain people are a bit iffy or is it that they are badly iffy??

Examples:
Metropolitan Anthony
Father Seraphim Rose

Two that i've noticed so far that people keep saying things about......because if there is people to avoid reading, i can do with the heads up right now so i don't waste time reading wrong stuff. Especially if the crux of the Orthodox faith is partly about right belief.

Cheers Poppy


If you are looking for introductory material (and you don`t yet have a spiritual Father who may or may not recommend otherwise) I would recommend The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos (aka Bishop Kallistos or Timothy) Ware.  I`m not sure that it would be a good idea to delve into the Fathers right away. 

One wonders what the Church ever did with inquirers before Met. Kallistos put pen to paper.

There is no reason why one shouldn't read the Fathers right away, it just depends on what one is reading. I would, for instance, recommend reading the homilies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Gregory Palamas before the Philokalia. These writings were intended for a general Christian audience and the fact that they were written by Fathers doesn't suddenly make them dangerous.
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« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2011, 08:38:24 AM »

Start with the Bible.  Especially the New Testament.
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