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Author Topic: Famed Catholic theologian calls for end of papal absolutism  (Read 1569 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 20, 2011, 07:19:42 PM »

http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/06/12/famed-catholic-theologian-calls-for-end-of-papal-absolutism/

Famed Catholic theologian calls for end of papal “absolutism"

National Catholic ReporterJun 12, 2011 – 10:27 AM ET

DETROIT – Famed theologian Fr. Hans Kung has called for a “peaceful” revolution by world Catholics against the absolutism of papal power.

He made the call in a video message June 10, the first evening of a conference in Detroit of the American Catholic Council.

“I think few people realize how powerful the pope is,” Kung said, likening papal power today to the absolute power of French monarchs that the French people revolted against in 1789.

“We have to change an absolutist system without the French Revolution,” he said. “We have to have peaceful change.
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 07:22:46 PM »

Vatican City has been likened to the size of a golf course.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 07:29:41 PM »

http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/06/12/famed-catholic-theologian-calls-for-end-of-papal-absolutism/

Famed Catholic theologian calls for end of papal “absolutism"

National Catholic ReporterJun 12, 2011 – 10:27 AM ET

DETROIT – Famed theologian Fr. Hans Kung has called for a “peaceful” revolution by world Catholics against the absolutism of papal power.

He made the call in a video message June 10, the first evening of a conference in Detroit of the American Catholic Council.

“I think few people realize how powerful the pope is,” Kung said, likening papal power today to the absolute power of French monarchs that the French people revolted against in 1789.

“We have to change an absolutist system without the French Revolution,” he said. “We have to have peaceful change.

I thought Kung was considered a heretic in the RCC and was excommunicated? If so, would his opinion really have much bearing on the everyday Joe or Jane Catholic? I know I would dismiss him as a loose screw.

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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 07:37:01 PM »

He's had his authority to teach Catholic theology rescinded. He still holds the title of priest, but his theology books contain opinions in stark contrast to those of the Roman Catholic leadership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kung

Kung is often mentioned in discussions of modernism and is hardly considered loyal to the Magisterium. He openly opposes the RCC's stance on many issues. Kung is not much of an 'insider' these days.

Then again, I suspect some people are more willing to lend him an ear because he doesn't like the current Pope.

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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 08:08:17 PM »

Vatican City has been likened to the size of a golf course.

 Roll Eyes
Looking on Google map, it is 3.3 km and 41 minutes to walk around the border.  I've heard it compared to a city park, although it is larger than Horner Park in Chicago, near which I grew up. It does compare to what we would call a neighborhood (a square set off by four "main/big" streets, roughly a quarter square mile (at .17 sq. mi., it is actually a little less). 

Going around it you don't get how small it is.  Having seen its embassies all over, though, I suspect the embassy grounds together are many times the country's territory.
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2011, 08:13:01 PM »

DETROIT – Famed theologian Fr. Hans Kung has called for a “peaceful” revolution by world Catholics against the absolutism of papal power.

Yawn.  This guy has no "cred" with the Vatican anymore so what good is his opinion except to the liberal Catholics? 
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 11:17:04 PM »

Kung has never been excommunicated. He just had lunch with BXVI a few years ago. They're best pals. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 11:44:51 PM »

Just like Turkey and Armenia, right?
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 01:12:01 AM »

"Just like Turkey and Armenia?" What did you mean?

I think the Vatican is about the size of the Kremlin or the "Mall" in DC, with the Lincoln Monument etc.
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 01:26:22 AM »

Jetavan's comment that the Pope and Kung are "best pals".  As in "Kung and the Pope are best pals, just like Turkey and Armenia."
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 05:40:58 AM »

http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/06/12/famed-catholic-theologian-calls-for-end-of-papal-absolutism/

Famed Catholic theologian calls for end of papal “absolutism"

National Catholic ReporterJun 12, 2011 – 10:27 AM ET

DETROIT – Famed theologian Fr. Hans Kung has called for a “peaceful” revolution by world Catholics against the absolutism of papal power.

He made the call in a video message June 10, the first evening of a conference in Detroit of the American Catholic Council.

“I think few people realize how powerful the pope is,” Kung said, likening papal power today to the absolute power of French monarchs that the French people revolted against in 1789.

“We have to change an absolutist system without the French Revolution,” he said. “We have to have peaceful change.

Try 'Famed Dissenter/Heretic calls for end of papal "absolutism"'.
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 09:04:30 AM »

Quote
In the interview with Kung, played on two giant screens in one of the convention center’s main rooms, the theologian predicted change in the church despite resistance from Rome. Vatican II “was a great success, but only 50 percent, he said.

On the one hand, he said, many reforms were realized, including renewal in the liturgy, a new appreciation of Scripture, and other significant changes such as recognition of the importance of the laity and the local church and various changes in church discipline.

“Unfortunately the council was not allowed to speak about the question of celibacy, about the question of birth control and contraception. Of course, ordination of women was far away from all the discussions,” he said.

“Many documents of the council are ambivalent documents because the Rome machinery -- the Roman Curia -- was able to stop any movement of reform, to stop it not completely, but half way.”

It sounds like he is unwilling to say that any of the various changes were bad.
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 09:17:39 AM »

"Just like Turkey and Armenia?" What did you mean?

I think the Vatican is about the size of the Kremlin or the "Mall" in DC, with the Lincoln Monument etc.
No, it's much smaller than the Mall in D.C. even without the Lincoln Monument, though it is about the size of Capitol Hill around the Capitol (the Mall around it, NOT the neighborhood-I've lived there and it is 10x larger). Unfortunately, I've never been to Russia yet, so I can't compare that.
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 10:00:00 AM »

I have to say that I didn't even have to open this thread to suspect that it was Hans Kung.  ..nuff said...
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 11:34:35 AM »

Although Hans Kung may be "liberal" by any standard, it was his book "Does God Exist?" that brought me closer to my own faith and for that I will always respect him. Also his book, "On Being a Christian" is an extremely well-written treatise that is applicable to all - including Orthodox as he outlines in his prologue. These books were written in the late 1970's I think, so it's possible he was less "liberal" back then. I must admit that I haven't read any of his more recent works.

On another note, I cannot understand for the death of me why any non-Catholic (especially Orthodox) would decry his call for the end of Papal infallibility/absolutism. I don't know why this is news either, he's been deriding papal power for decades now. If someone could explain this to me, I would be greatly appreciative...
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 11:38:31 AM »

Kung is a Saruman who mistakenly believes that the Holy See is the abode of Sauron, and he wants it all for himself. He is a arch-heretic, and an unpleasant one. Arrogant egotists usually are.
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 11:43:35 AM »

Kung has never been excommunicated. He just had lunch with BXVI a few years ago. They're best pals. Wink

Not exactly pals, but they go back a long ways. Kung helped Ratzinger get a plum teaching position. But as Kung went off the rails, Ratzinger stayed faithful.

No, he hasn't been formally excommunicated (but I would make an argument for latae sententiae). But that hasn't stopped his martyr complex. "Ooooh, the meanie Inquisition in the Vatican is persecuting me!!!" My God, this wolf has gotten off so easy. I can imagine what would have happened to him in previous centuries--a lot more than excommunication, that's for sure.
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 12:19:02 PM »

On another note, I cannot understand for the death of me why any non-Catholic (especially Orthodox) would decry his call for the end of Papal infallibility/absolutism.
I think there are two Orthodox responses to Kung: (1) support for his critique of papal supremacy; and (2) the realization that his liberal position on other issues (like abortion) unfortunately undermines his papal supremacy critique from being taken seriously by the Vatican.
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 12:54:52 PM »

On another note, I cannot understand for the death of me why any non-Catholic (especially Orthodox) would decry his call for the end of Papal infallibility/absolutism.
I think there are two Orthodox responses to Kung: (1) support for his critique of papal supremacy; and (2) the realization that his liberal position on other issues (like abortion) unfortunately undermines his papal supremacy critique from being taken seriously by the Vatican.

However, many Orthodox claim that the Vatican's position is heretical, and hence that it is not enough to criticize or even reject it, if one does not actually break off communion with Rome.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 01:05:23 PM »

Does Kung even believe in a divinely ordered episcopacy? In other words, you EO may agree with his position on papal supremacy, but you may not like the sources from which his position springs.
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 01:21:12 PM »

Does Kung even believe in a divinely ordered episcopacy? In other words, you EO may agree with his position on papal supremacy, but you may not like the sources from which his position springs.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Indeed!! 

But the habit is not to look any deeper than the surface or that which supports your own twisted view.
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 01:32:55 PM »

Does Kung even believe in a divinely ordered episcopacy? In other words, you EO may agree with his position on papal supremacy, but you may not like the sources from which his position springs.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Indeed!! 

But the habit is not to look any deeper than the surface or that which supports your own twisted view.

I'm not sure if "twisted view" is a fair description; but in any case, what do you say to those Catholics who believe that we are ready for full communion with that "twisted view"? (See, for example, "what we share with the Orthodox is such that the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion".)
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2011, 01:38:00 PM »

Does Kung even believe in a divinely ordered episcopacy? In other words, you EO may agree with his position on papal supremacy, but you may not like the sources from which his position springs.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Indeed!! 

But the habit is not to look any deeper than the surface or that which supports your own twisted view.

I'm not sure if "twisted view" is a fair description; but in any case, what do you say to those Catholics who believe that we are ready for full communion with that "twisted view"? (See, for example, "what we share with the Orthodox is such that the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion".)

Your own...was a generic "your"...and I am afraid now that I've befuddled things beyond repair...so I'll put the shovel down here.
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2011, 01:52:51 PM »

On another note, I cannot understand for the death of me why any non-Catholic (especially Orthodox) would decry his call for the end of Papal infallibility/absolutism.
I think there are two Orthodox responses to Kung: (1) support for his critique of papal supremacy; and (2) the realization that his liberal position on other issues (like abortion) unfortunately undermines his papal supremacy critique from being taken seriously by the Vatican.
I don't think that EOs will find a friend in Kung because the premises from which he rejects the Catholic conept of the Roman Papacy are the same premises from which he rejects the other traditional doctrines of the Christian faith.
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2011, 03:27:03 PM »

Does Kung even believe in a divinely ordered episcopacy? In other words, you EO may agree with his position on papal supremacy, but you may not like the sources from which his position springs.
Which is probably why no one here is jumping on the bandwagon behind him.  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2011, 06:32:18 PM »

Does Kung even believe in a divinely ordered episcopacy? In other words, you EO may agree with his position on papal supremacy, but you may not like the sources from which his position springs.
Which is probably why no one here is jumping on the bandwagon behind him.  Wink
Agreed
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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2011, 09:56:14 PM »

Quote
In the interview with Kung, played on two giant screens in one of the convention center’s main rooms, the theologian predicted change in the church despite resistance from Rome. Vatican II “was a great success, but only 50 percent, he said.

On the one hand, he said, many reforms were realized, including renewal in the liturgy, a new appreciation of Scripture, and other significant changes such as recognition of the importance of the laity and the local church and various changes in church discipline.

“Unfortunately the council was not allowed to speak about the question of celibacy, about the question of birth control and contraception. Of course, ordination of women was far away from all the discussions,” he said.

“Many documents of the council are ambivalent documents because the Rome machinery -- the Roman Curia -- was able to stop any movement of reform, to stop it not completely, but half way.”

It sounds like he is unwilling to say that any of the various changes were bad.

A little addendum to that thought: if Peter W. Miller is right (see quote below), one could expect "conservative" Catholics to agree with Kung with regard to the changes so far being good, although they'd of course disagree with his push for additional changes.

Quote
Both traditionalists and "conservatives" acknowledge the existence of problems in the Church but disagree as to their nature, extent, causes and remedies.

"Conservatives" see it as an "illness" — an incidental problem like a gangrene limb. In the English-speaking world, this problem may be limited to the actions of certain American bishops. "Conservatives" see the novelties of Vatican II and the New Mass as natural and acceptable developments in the course of the Church, but take issue with those seeking to expand upon those novelties, or take them to their next logical progression. They see the crisis in the Church as a societal issue that would have happened regardless of what actions the Church leadership had taken. Their solution is to return to Vatican II and embark on another attempt to "renew" the Church.

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20011221_A_Brief_Defense_of_Traditionalism.html
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 08:13:40 AM »

Sadly, I have heard that a schism maybe pending in the Roman Catholic Church of Germany. After the announcement of many "Catholic" theologians in Germany demanding deformation of doctrine, the situation is not good.
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 08:35:46 PM »

Sadly, I have heard that a schism maybe pending in the Roman Catholic Church of Germany. After the announcement of many "Catholic" theologians in Germany demanding deformation of doctrine, the situation is not good.
I could easily see a schism happening in the church.

But you realize what would happen to the schismatics, right?

Private interpretation = okay.
Birth control = okay.
Married priesthood/episcopacy = okay.
Homosexuality = okay.
Homosexual marriage = sacrament.
Open communion = okay
Mass on Sundays = not obligatory.


Very quickly, they would die. The modernist heresy and associated things would thoroughly kill them.
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2011, 09:21:17 PM »

Sadly, I have heard that a schism maybe pending in the Roman Catholic Church of Germany. After the announcement of many "Catholic" theologians in Germany demanding deformation of doctrine, the situation is not good.
I could easily see a schism happening in the church.

But you realize what would happen to the schismatics, right?

Private interpretation = okay.
Birth control = okay.
Married priesthood/episcopacy = okay.
Homosexuality = okay.
Homosexual marriage = sacrament.
Open communion = okay
Mass on Sundays = not obligatory.


Very quickly, they would die. The modernist heresy and associated things would thoroughly kill them.
Married priesthood is ancient, not modernist, and hasn't weakened the Orthodox a bit. Quite the contrary.

Not sure that private interpretation is any different from "private revelation."  And the Vatican is still around.

As for birth control, given the prevelance of it among the Vatican's followers, do you really want to put that on your list?  It does not, btw, kill off a population: Egypt has had aggressive promotion of birth control since the 60's, and yet the population has nearly trippled. But then, Egyptian society is very family orientated, and everything, including birth control, revolves around that.
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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2011, 11:38:25 PM »

http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/06/12/famed-catholic-theologian-calls-for-end-of-papal-absolutism/

Famed Catholic theologian calls for end of papal “absolutism"

National Catholic ReporterJun 12, 2011 – 10:27 AM ET

DETROIT – Famed theologian Fr. Hans Kung has called for a “peaceful” revolution by world Catholics against the absolutism of papal power.

He made the call in a video message June 10, the first evening of a conference in Detroit of the American Catholic Council.

“I think few people realize how powerful the pope is,” Kung said, likening papal power today to the absolute power of French monarchs that the French people revolted against in 1789.

“We have to change an absolutist system without the French Revolution,” he said. “We have to have peaceful change.

I believe that Father Hans Kung has been calling for this for a while now.
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