OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 23, 2014, 08:28:23 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Russian Orthodox Church prepares to review Slavonic terminology in liturgy  (Read 942 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,486


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« on: June 20, 2011, 07:19:24 PM »

The Russian Orthodox Church is getting ready to review the phrasing of some Slavonic terms in its liturgical practice.

From the article:
Quote
"Church Slavonic is a very important means to keep unity and traditions inside the Church. But on the other hand, understanding of liturgical texts written in Church Slavonic may be simplified," a senior Church official, Archimandrite Kirill, said on Monday.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,437


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 09:21:58 PM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
Logged
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 10:03:49 PM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
My thoughts exactly. The enterprise has something surreal about it Wink
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,670



« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 10:10:31 PM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
I would rather than they move to Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian myself. However, I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor Belarussian.  There are those who wish to remain in one Church, and they, not suprisingly, prefer the Slavonic, as they all have that in common.  It's not the first revision, btw. The last revision by the Russian Church of its texts was in 1915.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 10:52:23 PM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
I would rather than they move to Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian myself. However, I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor Belarussian.  There are those who wish to remain in one Church, and they, not suprisingly, prefer the Slavonic, as they all have that in common.  It's not the first revision, btw. The last revision by the Russian Church of its texts was in 1915.

Hopefully what Archimandrite Kirill means is that they are looking into introducing a kind of liturgical Russian.  I am told by some that Russian "straight up" without any modifications to take off the rough-sounding edges would simply sound too harsh to Slavic ears in a liturgical setting.
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,437


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 11:24:58 AM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
I would rather than they move to Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian myself. However, I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor Belarussian.  There are those who wish to remain in one Church, and they, not suprisingly, prefer the Slavonic, as they all have that in common.  It's not the first revision, btw. The last revision by the Russian Church of its texts was in 1915.

Hopefully what Archimandrite Kirill means is that they are looking into introducing a kind of liturgical Russian.  I am told by some that Russian "straight up" without any modifications to take off the rough-sounding edges would simply sound too harsh to Slavic ears in a liturgical setting.

Perhaps his intent was lost in translation?  LOL  Grin
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,437


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 11:31:40 AM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
I would rather than they move to Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian myself. However, I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor Belarussian.  There are those who wish to remain in one Church, and they, not suprisingly, prefer the Slavonic, as they all have that in common.  It's not the first revision, btw. The last revision by the Russian Church of its texts was in 1915.


I get that in terms of those who adore Slavophilism and the works of the Russophiles. However, that seems simply inconsistent with his words stating that his goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable..."

This would be as if the Vatican Curia circa 1966 had decided to update liturgical Latin into some sort of common 'romance' themed language for use by Spaniards, French, Italians etc.....

Makes no sense to me outside of the geopolitical realm.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 11:31:53 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,495



« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 11:40:55 AM »


This would be as if the Vatican Curia circa 1966 had decided to update liturgical Latin into some sort of common 'romance' themed language for use by Spaniards, French, Italians etc.....

Makes no sense to me outside of the geopolitical realm.
You might then be interested in Latino sine flexione.

It will be interesting to watch these developments to see if there are any principles that will help us find consensus on a suitably Orthodox liturgical English.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,670



« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 06:22:44 PM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
I would rather than they move to Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian myself. However, I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor Belarussian.  There are those who wish to remain in one Church, and they, not suprisingly, prefer the Slavonic, as they all have that in common.  It's not the first revision, btw. The last revision by the Russian Church of its texts was in 1915.


I get that in terms of those who adore Slavophilism and the works of the Russophiles. However, that seems simply inconsistent with his words stating that his goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable..."

This would be as if the Vatican Curia circa 1966 had decided to update liturgical Latin into some sort of common 'romance' themed language for use by Spaniards, French, Italians etc.....

Makes no sense to me outside of the geopolitical realm.
This is a little dated:
Quote
Is there a possibility for reforming the liturgical Old Slavonic language, which the Orthodox Church uses? Can the Church in her liturgical life switch to the modern Russian language? If no, why Old Slavonic is so essential?

First of all I would like to specify: the language the Russian Orthodox Church uses in her liturgical practice today cannot be called Old Slavonic in a strict philological sense. The Old Slavonic language is the language in which our forefathers spoke in old Russia. The liturgical language used today is Church Slavonic, which has seriously evolved since old Russia adopted Christianity. I would like to note that the conversational and liturgical forms of the Slavonic language differed notably already in Old Russia. The liturgical language was filled with theological and moral notions, which were unknown till the adoption of Christianity and were not used therefore in spoken language. Many grammar constructions were borrowed from the Greek language. That is why from the very beginning the Church Slavonic language had certain conceptual and grammatical autonomy from the spoken language.

On the whole I think it is wrong to speak about a reform in the liturgical language. It is wrong because any reform is revolutionary in character. And a revolution always divides people into its supporter and opponents. The use of any language during a divine service does not concern dogmatics and should not therefore become a cause of any division in the Church. The history of the church reforms in the 17th century showed us what tragic consequences this may result in.

It is quite another matter when we speak about intensifying the work to develop the Church Slavonic language that has never stopped in the Church. I mean the adaptation of particular words and grammar constructions to the modern literary language. For example, let us take up the phrase from Psalm 90: "my sin is ever (vynu - Slavonic) before me.” Now even if a person knows the meaning of Slavonic vynu corresponding to the Russian "ever", he would voluntary or involuntary associate it with the verb vynut (which in English means 'take out'). In such cases I suppose substitution is possible. However, it should not be done with respect to popular prayers known to most of us. The matter is much easier with the use of the literary language for reading Holy Scriptures in churches. After all, an overwhelming majority of people read the Bible in Russian, not in Church Slavonic.

From my point of view, today we voluntary or involuntary substitute another, more serious problem for the problem of Church Slavonic at divine services. I would call it a misunderstanding of the language of Christianity. Indeed, such words as "love" and "humility", to which we are accustomed and which are perfectly clear linguistically, have quite a different meaning in Christian understanding from what they mean in the secular world. That is why it is so essential to intensify catechetical work among the faithful.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/51.aspx#6
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Ad Orientem
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 10



WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 10:39:26 PM »

This is quite interesting.  I received an email from a frequent correspondent who happens to be Trad Roman Catholic with links to two articles on this subject.  Both however are in Russian and efforts to use online translation sites were unsatisfactory.  On the off chance that someone here is fluent in Russian and has some free time for translating them (they aren't terribly long) here are the links.

http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/1542490.html

http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/1542499.html
Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 10:44:36 AM »

Well, to me that takes the cake for the dumbest position taken by any Orthodox for the year 2011. If your goal "is to make the message that the Church is carrying to modern society more transparent and understandable...",  how about using, say Russian instead of simplified Church Slavonic? Geez, the Romans could have saved a whole lot of trouble and switched to say, pig Latin in the 1960's. Boze moi.
I would rather than they move to Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian myself. However, I am not Russian, Ukrainian nor Belarussian.  There are those who wish to remain in one Church, and they, not suprisingly, prefer the Slavonic, as they all have that in common.  It's not the first revision, btw. The last revision by the Russian Church of its texts was in 1915.

Hopefully what Archimandrite Kirill means is that they are looking into introducing a kind of liturgical Russian.  I am told by some that Russian "straight up" without any modifications to take off the rough-sounding edges would simply sound too harsh to Slavic ears in a liturgical setting.

Perhaps his intent was lost in translation?  LOL  Grin

Good one!   Wink
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Tags: Russian Orthodox Church  Slavonic liturgy liturgical language 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.069 seconds with 38 queries.