OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 26, 2014, 04:31:02 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is it necessary upon reception into the Orthodox Church to renounce the errors of Rome?  (Read 14442 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #180 on: June 28, 2011, 07:16:31 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?


In the Orthodox world there were just two bishops who opposed birth control and that included Natural Family Planning.

The bishops were:

1. Bishop Augustinos of Florina, Greece, recently deceased

2. Bishop Artemije of Kosovo, Serbia, now involuntarily retired by the Serbian Synod.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #181 on: June 28, 2011, 08:13:41 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Oddly enough, Ultramontanists who embrace Orthodoxy are not called upon in the rite of reception to renounce Humanae Vitae and the Corban factories a/k/a the Marriage Tribunals of the Vatican, but this is the two differences that Ultramontanists love to bring up at any opportunity.  Don't want to talk about the little things like corrupting the Orthodox Creed into which the Catholic Church baptizes.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 08:35:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #182 on: June 28, 2011, 08:19:07 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?


In the Orthodox world there were just two bishops who opposed birth control and that included Natural Family Planning.

The bishops were:

1. Bishop Augustinos of Florina, Greece, recently deceased

2. Bishop Artemije of Kosovo, Serbia, now involuntarily retired by the Serbian Synod.
Father, I seem to recall recently a bishop or someone in some offical capacity in the Patriarchate of Moscow who dimissed/condemned Humanae Vitae (and its artifical distinction of ABC and NFP) but not by name (I seem to recall it was quite clear what he was refering to).  Do you recall something along these lines?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #183 on: June 28, 2011, 09:01:06 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm


All of those "merits" are the merits of Jesus Christ which we participate in by grace and an act of the will.   That certainly was not mentioned in Volnutt's List.

Mary

Blimey!  The merits available for the Pope to reassign to the holy souls in Purgatory are not only the merits of Christ on the Cross but all the supererogatory merits of all the Saints.

And of course he may also disburse these merits to those alive on earth, using the same system of indulgences.

There are NO merits but the merits of Jesus.  Period.  Doctrine.  Catholic Doctrine...

Blimey!...I thought you were Catholic once.  Didn't get too far I think.


Pshaw!  I suggest you study the teaching on the "supererogatory works" and "superfluous merits" of the Saints.

Never too late to learn something. laugh

All merit comes from Jesus, the Christ.   There is nothing else without that.  So pthhhhhhhhhh....to you too   Smiley
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #184 on: June 28, 2011, 09:03:35 PM »

The fact that it's all Jesus' merits is immaterial to the discussion, we still have to (apply, access, pick whatever term you like) them to the current situation by our will.

That is not what purgation is about for Catholics.  Not at all.  It is not meant to batter us into submission.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. What you call battering, I call letting us deal with the natural consequences of our sins until we learn to hate them and love God.

Read the gospel story of Lazarus the Beggar and Dives.  After death is a little late.  That is revealed to us.  I would prefer to give a gospel story precedence over someone like Father Ambrose who has a "distaste" for never being able to say he's sorry...after he's already in the soup!!...so to speak.
Well if that's the case, then "Purgatory" is essentially deathbed repentance. You're in Protestant-country now.

Purgatory has nothing to do with repentance or rehab....
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #185 on: June 28, 2011, 09:08:59 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?

It is pietistic and pastoral.

That doesn't really tell me why time is used and what it is meant to express.

Time is used because that is how ordinary people mark out the stages of their lives.  We tend to see everything in blocks of time spent doing this and that...

So when one speaks of what happens after death, it is not unusual to speak in terms that are commonly associated with stages of life on this side of the grave.

That is why I said it is pastoral.

It is pietistic because we can then think of our prayers and fasting and sacrifices and acts of mercy and alms-giving as means for making a difficult stage in the life of a loved one or the life of a brother or sister in Christ as brief as possible.

None of those specific pastoral elements of purgation and indulgence are doctrine or theology.  They are based in doctrine and theology but the expression is pietistic and pastoral.

Thank you.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #186 on: June 28, 2011, 09:13:27 PM »

Then what do you call buying a indulgence or saying a Mass for the dead? Sounds like works to me.

Please be careful. Orthodoxy rejects the first, but does the second. We commemorate and pray for the departed at every divine liturgy and we also have memorial services for them.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,092


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #187 on: June 28, 2011, 09:16:54 PM »

Buying indulgences was stopped hundreds of years ago.  Tongue But everything is still the same, right?  Roll Eyes Sigh...
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #188 on: June 28, 2011, 09:18:40 PM »

You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

It's kind of like pouring an antiseptic onto an open wound.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #189 on: June 28, 2011, 09:20:40 PM »

Buying indulgences was stopped hundreds of years ago.  Tongue But everything is still the same, right?  Roll Eyes Sigh...

Whether or not the purchase of indulgences has ceased, the doctrine enabling such a practice is arguably the same today.

I am not saying this to be inflammatory, just guessing at where Volnutt is coming from.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #190 on: June 28, 2011, 09:24:26 PM »

You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

It's kind of like pouring an antiseptic onto an open wound.

That's not how the saints that I read see things.  It is more like the longing of the lover for the beloved...It is the fire that burns but does not consume...but purifies us and gives us form and beauty.

It's like those moments in life where we are confronted with such beauty and perfection that we weep...

Not everyone is moved in these ways.  But that is how I see it, and how I am moved.  Others as well, so I am told.  Smiley
Logged

biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,092


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #191 on: June 28, 2011, 09:30:04 PM »

A thought: if, after death, you lose your sense of time, does it matter 'how long' you are in a place? I wonder.  Undecided
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #192 on: June 28, 2011, 09:31:18 PM »

Buying indulgences was stopped hundreds of years ago.  Tongue But everything is still the same, right?  Roll Eyes Sigh...
Common misconception, they're still given just not for money.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,092


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #193 on: June 28, 2011, 09:39:26 PM »

Which is why I said buying indulgences was stopped.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #194 on: June 28, 2011, 09:41:19 PM »

You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

It's kind of like pouring an antiseptic onto an open wound.

That's not how the saints that I read see things.  It is more like the longing of the lover for the beloved...It is the fire that burns but does not consume...but purifies us and gives us form and beauty.

It's like those moments in life where we are confronted with such beauty and perfection that we weep...

Not everyone is moved in these ways.  But that is how I see it, and how I am moved.  Others as well, so I am told.  Smiley

I thought it was due to the burning away of the passions that prevent us from clearly seeing God.

Perhaps I was mistaken.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #195 on: June 28, 2011, 09:45:01 PM »

Which is why I said buying indulgences was stopped.
And that's why your mockery is irrelevant. Indulgence selling was an abuse, indulgences are a doctrine.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,092


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #196 on: June 28, 2011, 09:50:39 PM »

I wasn't mocking anyone. I said buying indulgences is not done anymore. I did not say there were no more indulgences.

I'm not going to dignify your insult anymore.  Angry
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #197 on: June 28, 2011, 09:51:32 PM »

Then what do you call buying a indulgence or saying a Mass for the dead? Sounds like works to me.

Please be careful. Orthodoxy rejects the first, but does the second. We commemorate and pray for the departed at every divine liturgy and we also have memorial services for them.
I know. I was talking about Catholicism.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #198 on: June 28, 2011, 09:55:18 PM »

I wasn't mocking anyone. I said buying indulgences is not done anymore. I did not say there were no more indulgences.

I'm not going to dignify your insult anymore.  Angry

My apologies, upon rereading my post, I see the confusion. I was referring to buying indulgences as works that the RC has excepted for lessening purgatory in the past just like they do Masses for the dead now.

And your "Roll Eyes" really insulted me, but I'm sorry I responded in anger.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #199 on: June 28, 2011, 09:58:46 PM »

You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

It's kind of like pouring an antiseptic onto an open wound.

That's not how the saints that I read see things.  It is more like the longing of the lover for the beloved...It is the fire that burns but does not consume...but purifies us and gives us form and beauty.

It's like those moments in life where we are confronted with such beauty and perfection that we weep...

Not everyone is moved in these ways.  But that is how I see it, and how I am moved.  Others as well, so I am told.  Smiley
I see.

Well, honestly, if that's what Purgatory is then I'd say prayer for the dead is not only a waste of time but possibly an outright lie on God's part.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #200 on: June 28, 2011, 10:10:55 PM »

You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

It's kind of like pouring an antiseptic onto an open wound.

That's not how the saints that I read see things.  It is more like the longing of the lover for the beloved...It is the fire that burns but does not consume...but purifies us and gives us form and beauty.

It's like those moments in life where we are confronted with such beauty and perfection that we weep...

Not everyone is moved in these ways.  But that is how I see it, and how I am moved.  Others as well, so I am told.  Smiley

I thought it was due to the burning away of the passions that prevent us from clearly seeing God.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

Not entirely.  Just missing the next part.  Christian Joy is a combination of the Cross and the Resurrection.  Sorrow/Elation..both/and.   Like wine pressed down and overflowing...

We don't emotionally flat line in the process of sanctification...We fill to bursting...and we burst open.  I think of it as a birthing...a spiritual natality.  It is not without its own fire and fire always burns...sometimes it does not consume.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #201 on: June 28, 2011, 10:14:18 PM »

I wasn't mocking anyone. I said buying indulgences is not done anymore. I did not say there were no more indulgences.

I'm not going to dignify your insult anymore.  Angry


Simony is a sin no matter where or when...
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,152



« Reply #202 on: June 28, 2011, 10:30:32 PM »

I just had an idea: what if we instituted a Sale of Emoticons? Say, $5 apiece?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,152



« Reply #203 on: June 28, 2011, 10:34:28 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #204 on: June 28, 2011, 10:43:26 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #205 on: June 28, 2011, 10:54:07 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry



Poor you...all that worry for nothing really.

With all the lying, false witness/gossip, idolatry, anger, jealousy, greed, sloth and gluttony in the world...a few sins of the flesh are hardly worth loosing sleep over.

I guess you might suggest that we ditch the Ten Commandments next...eh?...that makes us all vehicles of damnation.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 10:55:05 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #206 on: June 28, 2011, 10:54:26 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry


I sympathize, but it should be asked, how did they get by in the early centuries when you were bared from the Eucharist for like ten years for masturbating? Surely this isn't much less conducive to damnation?
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,152



« Reply #207 on: June 28, 2011, 11:00:27 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry



Poor you...all that worry for nothing really.

With all the lying, false witness/gossip, idolatry, anger, jealousy, greed, sloth and gluttony in the world...a few sins of the flesh are hardly worth loosing sleep over.

Perhaps you should rethink that logic.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,152



« Reply #208 on: June 28, 2011, 11:00:46 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry

Let's not overstate the matter. People (whether Catholic or otherwise) who don't believe that it's a sin, are not committing mortal sin by doing it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 11:01:43 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #209 on: June 28, 2011, 11:07:54 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry


I sympathize, but it should be asked, how did they get by in the early centuries when you were bared from the Eucharist for like ten years for masturbating? Surely this isn't much less conducive to damnation?

Ever read the Penitential of the Greek Saint Theodore of Tarsus?  He followed Saint Augustine as Archbishop of Canterbury.   Are there ever some tough penances handed out?!!
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #210 on: June 28, 2011, 11:10:34 PM »

I haven't. Just hearing about it makes me sympathize with the "infrequent communion" folks though laugh
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #211 on: June 29, 2011, 12:31:35 AM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry

Let's not overstate the matter. People (whether Catholic or otherwise) who don't believe that it's a sin, are not committing mortal sin by doing it.

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #212 on: June 29, 2011, 12:36:21 AM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.
Embarrassed Cry Angry
I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry

Let's not overstate the matter. People (whether Catholic or otherwise) who don't believe that it's a sin, are not committing mortal sin by doing it.

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
  Embarrassed Cry Angry
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 12:37:26 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #213 on: June 29, 2011, 12:38:20 AM »

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
Obviously there are some sins that nearly everyone would be accountable for because they are written in the heart of every man. Murder would be one of these things that nearly everyone would be culpable for because nearly everyone's conscience, regardless of how poorly formed, would be able to tell them that murder is wrong. It's the less well-known and well understood sins that not everyone is culpable for (or as culpable for) such as contraception.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #214 on: June 29, 2011, 12:52:47 AM »

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
Obviously there are some sins that nearly everyone would be accountable for because they are written in the heart of every man. Murder would be one of these things that nearly everyone would be culpable for because nearly everyone's conscience, regardless of how poorly formed, would be able to tell them that murder is wrong. It's the less well-known and well understood sins that not everyone is culpable for (or as culpable for) such as contraception.
Unfortunately your magisterium, arguing on the basis of natural law, can't make such a distinction.  Kuntsevych, for instance, didn't seem to think killing in the promotion of "the holy union" was a sin, much less a crime.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #215 on: June 29, 2011, 12:54:25 AM »

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
Obviously there are some sins that nearly everyone would be accountable for because they are written in the heart of every man. Murder would be one of these things that nearly everyone would be culpable for because nearly everyone's conscience, regardless of how poorly formed, would be able to tell them that murder is wrong. It's the less well-known and well understood sins that not everyone is culpable for (or as culpable for) such as contraception.

I don't want to get into a conversation about contraception.  But this whole line of argumentation seems silly to me, e.g. that there are some mortal sins that are mortal except for those that people don't agree with   Roll Eyes

Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #216 on: June 29, 2011, 01:00:53 AM »

I don't want to get into a conversation about contraception.  But this whole line of argumentation seems silly to me, e.g. that there are some mortal sins that are mortal except for those that people don't agree with   Roll Eyes
Say there are two people. One person steals something, but doesn't believe stealing is wrong, then shortly afterward dies and faces judgment. The other person steals something, knowing full well that stealing is wrong and offends God and believes it is wrong, but freely decides to do it anyway. He, too, dies and faces judgment. To keep things relatively simple lets assume that both individuals were Christians. Now, will God judge the one who didn't think stealing was wrong every bit as harshly as the person who KNEW it was wrong, but didn't care and did it anyway?
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #217 on: June 29, 2011, 01:35:04 AM »

I don't want to get into a conversation about contraception.  But this whole line of argumentation seems silly to me, e.g. that there are some mortal sins that are mortal except for those that people don't agree with   Roll Eyes
Say there are two people. One person steals something, but doesn't believe stealing is wrong, then shortly afterward dies and faces judgment. The other person steals something, knowing full well that stealing is wrong and offends God and believes it is wrong, but freely decides to do it anyway. He, too, dies and faces judgment. To keep things relatively simple lets assume that both individuals were Christians. Now, will God judge the one who didn't think stealing was wrong every bit as harshly as the person who KNEW it was wrong, but didn't care and did it anyway?

God judges not only acts but what is in the heart.  If a person is so warped as to not think that stealing is wrong, then he may be more sick and deep in sin than the other one.   The judgment is ultimately how far away we are from God.   So it is certainly possible that the one who has warped himself in sin and pathoi so much as to not believe stealing is wrong and consequently does not repent will face a greater judgment than the one who steals with full knowledge and repents.   As St. Basil the Great says:  "All that which is involuntary has its root in that which is voluntary." 
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #218 on: June 29, 2011, 01:56:36 AM »

I don't want to get into a conversation about contraception.  But this whole line of argumentation seems silly to me, e.g. that there are some mortal sins that are mortal except for those that people don't agree with   Roll Eyes
Say there are two people. One person steals something, but doesn't believe stealing is wrong, then shortly afterward dies and faces judgment. The other person steals something, knowing full well that stealing is wrong and offends God and believes it is wrong, but freely decides to do it anyway. He, too, dies and faces judgment. To keep things relatively simple lets assume that both individuals were Christians. Now, will God judge the one who didn't think stealing was wrong every bit as harshly as the person who KNEW it was wrong, but didn't care and did it anyway?

God judges not only acts but what is in the heart.  If a person is so warped as to not think that stealing is wrong, then he may be more sick and deep in sin than the other one.   The judgment is ultimately how far away we are from God.   So it is certainly possible that the one who has warped himself in sin and pathoi so much as to not believe stealing is wrong and consequently does not repent will face a greater judgment than the one who steals with full knowledge and repents.   As St. Basil the Great says:  "All that which is involuntary has its root in that which is voluntary."  
Does Scripture not say that to whom much is given much will be expected? From the Catholic view, the one who knows stealing is wrong (has a well formed conscience) and freely chooses to do it anyway is in greater spiritual danger. Since the man was blessed with a well formed conscience, it only makes sense he will be just more harshly since he should know better. However, there are reasons outside of one's control that can cause them to either not know or not believe something is a sin. Is it someone's fault if they are ignorant of the sinfulness of an act? Obviously the example I gave is not necessarily the best one because hopefully most people know that stealing is wrong, but you get the idea.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 01:58:41 AM by Wyatt » Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #219 on: June 29, 2011, 02:18:43 AM »

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
Obviously there are some sins that nearly everyone would be accountable for because they are written in the heart of every man. Murder would be one of these things that nearly everyone would be culpable for because nearly everyone's conscience, regardless of how poorly formed, would be able to tell them that murder is wrong. It's the less well-known and well understood sins that not everyone is culpable for (or as culpable for) such as contraception.
I don;t see how that would be possible. Catholics have a serious obligation to inform themselves of right and wrong and since the Pope has issued an encyclical Humanae Vitae, any ignorance in this matter would itself be a sin, would it not?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #220 on: June 29, 2011, 02:20:20 AM »

I don't want to get into a conversation about contraception.  But this whole line of argumentation seems silly to me, e.g. that there are some mortal sins that are mortal except for those that people don't agree with   Roll Eyes
Say there are two people. One person steals something, but doesn't believe stealing is wrong, then shortly afterward dies and faces judgment. The other person steals something, knowing full well that stealing is wrong and offends God and believes it is wrong, but freely decides to do it anyway. He, too, dies and faces judgment. To keep things relatively simple lets assume that both individuals were Christians. Now, will God judge the one who didn't think stealing was wrong every bit as harshly as the person who KNEW it was wrong, but didn't care and did it anyway?

God judges not only acts but what is in the heart.  If a person is so warped as to not think that stealing is wrong, then he may be more sick and deep in sin than the other one.   The judgment is ultimately how far away we are from God.   So it is certainly possible that the one who has warped himself in sin and pathoi so much as to not believe stealing is wrong and consequently does not repent will face a greater judgment than the one who steals with full knowledge and repents.   As St. Basil the Great says:  "All that which is involuntary has its root in that which is voluntary."  
Does Scripture not say that to whom much is given much will be expected? From the Catholic view, the one who knows stealing is wrong (has a well formed conscience) and freely chooses to do it anyway is in greater spiritual danger. Since the man was blessed with a well formed conscience, it only makes sense he will be just more harshly since he should know better. However, there are reasons outside of one's control that can cause them to either not know or not believe something is a sin. Is it someone's fault if they are ignorant of the sinfulness of an act? Obviously the example I gave is not necessarily the best one because hopefully most people know that stealing is wrong, but you get the idea.
To Catholics much has been given in the teaching of artificial birth control as for example he has the teaching of a major papal encyclical on the matter.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #221 on: June 29, 2011, 06:48:01 AM »

What's more it seems like most people who use it have a really low view of the magistereum (thinking them a bunch of naive, gynophobic old men stuck in the Middle Ages).
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #222 on: June 29, 2011, 06:51:02 AM »

I don't want to get into a conversation about contraception.  But this whole line of argumentation seems silly to me, e.g. that there are some mortal sins that are mortal except for those that people don't agree with   Roll Eyes
Say there are two people. One person steals something, but doesn't believe stealing is wrong, then shortly afterward dies and faces judgment. The other person steals something, knowing full well that stealing is wrong and offends God and believes it is wrong, but freely decides to do it anyway. He, too, dies and faces judgment. To keep things relatively simple lets assume that both individuals were Christians. Now, will God judge the one who didn't think stealing was wrong every bit as harshly as the person who KNEW it was wrong, but didn't care and did it anyway?

God judges not only acts but what is in the heart.  If a person is so warped as to not think that stealing is wrong, then he may be more sick and deep in sin than the other one.   The judgment is ultimately how far away we are from God.   So it is certainly possible that the one who has warped himself in sin and pathoi so much as to not believe stealing is wrong and consequently does not repent will face a greater judgment than the one who steals with full knowledge and repents.   As St. Basil the Great says:  "All that which is involuntary has its root in that which is voluntary."
I think what he is referring to is someone who was raised with the idea that stealing is not wrong, all their life they were told it's a right thing to do. Someone who honestly thinks it is right, who has no guile.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #223 on: June 29, 2011, 07:32:51 AM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
Not that you haven't been told it before:
Quote
XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

Any particular reason you asked that, and not my views on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, atonement, mandated clerical celibacy, etc. you know, things that would involve you and me, and not something, since we are both male, wouldn't?

Is it really so surprising that he'd ask about birth control rather than those other topics? After all, the Orthodox positions on the filioque, Vatican supremacy, mandated clerical celibacy are pretty clear -- well, at least to us traditional Catholics; I won't try to speak for people like Dr. Hahn or Fr. Taft.


The great worry for me about the RC teaching on birth control is that in the States 97% of marrieds ignore it and use methods forbidden by their Church as grossly sinful.    This kind of turns the Catholic Church into a vehicle of damnation for a large number of people.
 Cry Cry

Let's not overstate the matter. People (whether Catholic or otherwise) who don't believe that it's a sin, are not committing mortal sin by doing it.

Speaking of rethinking the logic.  The very fact that you are adding disobedience to the mix by rejecting the Church's clear teaching puts one in striking distance for the Big "M"...

There are other mitigating factors I am sure but flat out it is willed and grave matter so objectively it is bad news for the soul.  When we seek to achieve orgasm more assiduously than we seek to achieve sanctity through humility and obedience, then we are fooling everyone but God.

M.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #224 on: June 29, 2011, 07:36:38 AM »

Are people who commit murder who don't believe that committing murder is a sin, or theft or adultery who don't believe that they are sins, committing mortal sin by doing it?   This is one of the most absurd teachings of the RC that should have people fleeing to Orthodoxy (until, of course, after having encountered our non-absurd teachings, are then scandalized by Orthodoxy's modern disorganized chaos in organization& administration, in which half of them go back to Rome).
Obviously there are some sins that nearly everyone would be accountable for because they are written in the heart of every man. Murder would be one of these things that nearly everyone would be culpable for because nearly everyone's conscience, regardless of how poorly formed, would be able to tell them that murder is wrong. It's the less well-known and well understood sins that not everyone is culpable for (or as culpable for) such as contraception.
Unfortunately your magisterium, arguing on the basis of natural law, can't make such a distinction.  Kuntsevych, for instance, didn't seem to think killing in the promotion of "the holy union" was a sin, much less a crime.

This is pretty baseless provocation.  The more I hear about that period the more a revere his episcopacy.  When Orthodox admit to lying about a man after he's been murdered because they know their vile tongues contributed to his death...and there's a record of those cases....then I tend not to be well disposed to those who seek to perpetuate the lies.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.214 seconds with 72 queries.