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Author Topic: Judgement day and Spirits  (Read 590 times) Average Rating: 5
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Poppy
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« on: June 16, 2011, 01:38:14 PM »

Judgement day must be the day someone dies for them because, Saul talked to Samuel after Samuel was physically dead so that means Samuel was not asleep waiting for it and also because you can pray to Saints and others who have physically died so they are not asleep either. The same as the thief on the cross when Jesus said that he would be with him today.

Why isn't it allowable to speak to non believing physically dead people?? My gran used to and she said they were very helpfull to people in their grief. She used to say she was a witch but a good one not a Satanist or anything bad like that. That she used her gift to heal people, for God.

Also the Native American Indians talk to spirits and believe that spirits guide them in helpfull ways. The shamans do as well and a tonne of other people.

I don't really understand the difference between the communication with saints and but not with other spirits.

Thanks Poppy
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 02:35:27 PM »

Well, I would think that if a spirit told you it was good, could you TRULY believe it?

Although Im not Orthodox YET, I'd say saints have been proven to be godly people who pray for us and in them is no deceit....some other spirit, you really dont know what you'd be getting involved with.

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Poppy
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 03:06:37 PM »

Sorry my OP is a bit of a mess but i was thinking that if judgement had already happened then the spirits that you could talk to wouldn't be bad ones?? If they had already been judged then they might not have been made saints here on earth but that they might still be heavenly spirits??

After judgement i was thinking that all of the spirits who are "evil" would have been cast into a consuming fire already to be really dead.

So that's where my question came from.
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joasia
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 09:07:14 PM »

Hi Poppy,

You put alot of comments in one post.  I hope I can give some good replies.

Judgement day must be the day someone dies for them because, Saul talked to Samuel after Samuel was physically dead so that means Samuel was not asleep waiting for it and also because you can pray to Saints and others who have physically died so they are not asleep either.

-The holy fathers of the Old Testament and the saints after Christ's Resurrection have a special privilege because of their dedication to God by living their lives according to God.  There's also the Prophets that appeared to Jesus during His Transfiguration.

The same as the thief on the cross when Jesus said that he would be with him today.

-He didn't appear to anyone though. 

Why isn't it allowable to speak to non believing physically dead people??

-Well, for non-believers, they die not believing in Christ, right?  So, in their hearts, they reject Him and therefore how can a person BE with someone they reject?  Their last choice in life is to reject Christ and therefore they are the cause of the outcome.  If you tell a person, turn on the light in the room so you can see and they choose to leave the light off, then they don't have any right to complain about bumping into furniture because they can't see where they're going.  It's a simple example, but it's all about choices.

My gran used to and she said they were very helpfull to people in their grief.

-In Orthodoxy, the saints teach about the evil ones and how they can appear as someone we know.  If their conduct and conversation is observed, a person will see that they are trying to steer a person away from God.  They tell the sensitive about many things, but they are not from God.  If your grandmother told you about what kind of things they said to help the grieving, I can guarantee that it has nothing to do with turning to God.  You see, all God's servants are sent to others in order to bring them messages of encouragement in the true faith.  And I  know some things about spiritualism.  It usually skips a generation.  Are you a sensitive too?

She used to say she was a witch but a good one not a Satanist or anything bad like that. That she used her gift to heal people, for God.

-Unfortunately, that is what they believe, but that's not what's really happening, in the other realm.

Also the Native American Indians talk to spirits and believe that spirits guide them in helpfull ways. The shamans do as well and a tonne of other people.

-They are not doing it with God's blessing.  They are following the evil one without their knowledge.

I don't really understand the difference between the communication with saints and but not with other spirits.

-The difference is that some are sent by God and the others are sent by the evil one.  It takes experience and spiritual knowledge to recognize which is which.
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2011, 10:00:20 PM »

I don't really understand the difference between the communication with saints and but not with other spirits.
The spirits out there are angels and demons.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 12:44:37 AM »

i was thinking that if judgement had already happened then the spirits that you could talk to wouldn't be bad ones??  If they had already been judged then they might not have been made saints here on earth but that they might still be heavenly spirits??

- The basis teaching of the holy fathers of the Orthodox faith is that when we are judged and accepted into His Holy Kingdom we are in a state of blessed anticipation of the final glory.  The soul can only visit someone by God's Will.  So we have to be careful about the visitations we get because God may not be sending that one.  We cannot assume that the spirit visiting us is good because he's gone through the judgement.  The main point is that just because a spirit may appear to us, and we know that a soul passes through judgement , why should we believe that this spirit is a soul that passed that judgement?.   Consider the possibility that it is a demon in disguise.  Basically, God will send His servants and it will be for His Glory.  The evil one will send his servants and it will be to deceive, for his glory.  Observe the spirits and you will see the difference.
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 10:13:33 AM »

Okay, there is some confusion here, and in part I blame those who try and mess with time, but that's beside the point.

There are two judgments.

One, the particular judgment, happens for each person when he or she dies. The deceased is assigned a foretaste of eternal blessedness or eternal punishment in accordance with his or her deeds. This is not, however, the final or last judgment, which will occur when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, and this world will pass away.

Since the Last Judgment has not yet occurred--if it had, we would not still be sitting in our cubicles typing--the souls of the departed, and our souls as well, are in a state of flux. We who are yet in the body are able to repent, and we are able to pray for those souls who have departed.  We pray for them that have died that God may grant them rest with the saints and forgiveness of sins. There are those of the departed, however, who God has shown to be saints, who have grace to pray for us. Our prayer for the dead in some way communicates with them, and by God's grace sometimes they communicate with us. The same goes with our prayers to the saints. The veil between this life and the next is a thin one indeed, and it is only because of our sins that we cannot see how, in truth, God and his saints act in the world.

We know we are guided aright in our prayers for the departed, and our prayers to the saints, because we are instructed by the Church which Christ established and his Apostles spread throughout the world, leaving bishops as their successors. There are those, however, who do not follow the Orthodox way and can be lead into serious error  and demonic delusion. We deal with what we know, but they deal with what they do not know, and so are prone to make mistakes.

With regard to the king and the Prophet Samuel, one must look at the context. It would help if this passage were quoted.
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 01:01:23 PM »

we would not still be sitting in our cubicles typing

That's where I am right now while reading this....how did you know?? Shocked  There's someithing to be said about the unity of Orthodox Christians.  Sometimes we just know things about each other because our main link is Christ.  Do you know what I'm eating for lunch?
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Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
Tags: asleep  dying  death  judgement day spirits  gift  witch 
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