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Author Topic: Objective Books about the Balkan Conflict?  (Read 3308 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 15, 2011, 09:17:32 AM »

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective? 

Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 11:00:55 AM »

Good Luck! 

Sorry, that wasn't a lot of help.  I have yet to find anything objective written in English about the recent Balkan Wars.  If you are interested in the conflict during WWII, Fr. Vojislav Dosenovic's book "So Help Me God!" gives a first hand account of Serbia during the Second World War.  I had the honour of living in the same city as Fr. Vojislav during his lifetime and have received Communion from him.  His book is well written but hard to read due to the sadness of the subject matter.
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 11:03:26 AM »

The reason I ask is that I read an intriguing account of a vision of St. John the Russian, seen by many Serbian soldiers in March of 1999, in which he said, "I'm going to Belgrade because Orthodoxy is being slaughtered."  I want to see what the true story is in the Balkans (it can't be as simple and one-sided as our U.N./Freemasonic-dominated media portrays it).  In fact, I have these romantic ideas of becoming a mercenary for the Serbian military and of Belgrade possibly being some kind of "Fourth Rome".

Maybe I'm deluded.
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 11:30:07 AM »

If you're looking for Serbian and/or Orthodox books about the Balkans, by definition, you're looking for SUBJECTIVE books about the conflict.
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 11:47:09 AM »

The reason I ask is that I read an intriguing account of a vision of St. John the Russian, seen by many Serbian soldiers in March of 1999, in which he said, "I'm going to Belgrade because Orthodoxy is being slaughtered."  I want to see what the true story is in the Balkans (it can't be as simple and one-sided as our U.N./Freemasonic-dominated media portrays it).  In fact, I have these romantic ideas of becoming a mercenary for the Serbian military and of Belgrade possibly being some kind of "Fourth Rome".

Maybe I'm deluded.

Haven't heard about any vision of St. John the Russian, and it's hard to tell if such visions are true, or are from imagination, motivated by other, less spiritual concerns. Certainly the most recent war in the former Yugoslavia was one of mixed motivations, at best, and a lot of paranoia. I took a class on the conflict in college which I would say was pretty objective. As for books, I would say it's going to take a while for a complete picture of recent history to come out. What happened in WWII is controversial enough, and led to what happened in the 1990s.

In my opinion, it is not states and borders that matter. We do not have an earthly kingdom or city, as Orthodox Christians. When we are forced into war, it is for protection the weak and defenseless, not to preserve an earthly state. Consider the vision of Tsar St. Lazar before he faced the Turks in 1389. He was offered an earthly kingdom or a heavenly kingdom, and chose the heavenly one. There were many Serbs who fought in the 90s, ultimately for an earthly kingdom, but claimed to fight for Orthodoxy as a pretext. These were excommunicated by the holy Patriarch Pavle.
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 11:58:48 AM »

The following may put things into perspective:

"There are three very grievous kinds of war.  The one is public, when our soldiers are attacked by foreign armies; the second is, when even in time of peace, we are at war with one another; the third is, when the individual is at war with himself, which is the worst of all. From the third, we cannot escape without danger.  For when the body is at variance with the soul, and raises up evil desires, and arms against it sensual pleasures, or the bad passions of anger, and envy; we cannot attain the promised blessings, until this war is brought to an end; whoever does not still this tumult, must fall pierced by wounds that will bring that death that is in hell.  We have daily need therefore of care and great anxiety, that this war may not be stirred up within us, or that, if stirred up, it may not last, but be quelled and laid asleep.

What advantage is it, that the world enjoys profound peace, if you are at war with yourself?  This then is the peace we should keep.  If we have it, nothing from without will be able to harm us.  And to this end the public peace contributes no little, of which it is said, ‘That we may lead a quiet and peaceable life.’  But if anyone is disturbed when there is quiet, he is a miserable creature.  Do you see that He speaks of this peace which I call the third  kind?  Therefore when he has said, ‘that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,’ he does not stop there, but adds ‘in all godliness and honesty.’  But we cannot live in godliness and honesty, unless that peace be established.  For when curious reasonings disturb our faith, what peace is there? or when spirits of uncleanness, what peace is there?"

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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 12:00:21 PM »

The reason I ask is that I read an intriguing account of a vision of St. John the Russian, seen by many Serbian soldiers in March of 1999, in which he said, "I'm going to Belgrade because Orthodoxy is being slaughtered."  I want to see what the true story is in the Balkans (it can't be as simple and one-sided as our U.N./Freemasonic-dominated media portrays it).  In fact, I have these romantic ideas of becoming a mercenary for the Serbian military and of Belgrade possibly being some kind of "Fourth Rome".

Maybe I'm deluded.

For starts, I don't think the UN can be blamed too much for what happened.  That was more of a NATO+Clinton thing.  If it had gone to the UN, the Russians and Chinese probably would have put an end to it pretty quickly.  Also note that Serbia has a good number of Peacekeeping operations world-wide (all over Africa, Lebanon, Cyprus, and East Timor).  

I thought that I read somewhere that Serbia was taking foreign volunteers but can't find anything official on this.  I do know that they are professionalizing their army and upgrading their technology (one of the changes is the M21, a sexy Galil/R4 looking rifle!).  In the 90's Balkan Wars they did have a number of foreign units, I remember reading about Greeks and even Israelis fighting for Serbia.  If I find more solid info I'll let you know.

As for "Fourth Rome", there only gets to be Three!   Wink
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 12:10:37 PM »

As for the title thread, "HAHAHAHA!"

I'll let you know. I'm on the same exact quest, and I will be watching this thread closely. Haven't read anything completely objective on the subject yet.
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 01:24:18 PM »

Well, there always is 'Black Lamb, Grey Falcon'. It is quite old, written a little before WWII, but it is slanting in the Serbs' favor.  Smiley Hope I could help!
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 02:07:48 PM »

http://www.amazon.com/Balkans-Since-1453-L-S-Stavrianos/dp/0814797660/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1308852343&sr=8-9

"The Balkans since 1453" is a good survey of the area. We used it in my Balkan history class.
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 02:40:47 PM »

Standing by for more replies.

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective?

Not sure this will result in an objective (as requested in the thread title) perspective, but perhaps it will provide better balance. 

I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 02:51:35 PM »

Standing by for more replies.

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective?

Not sure this will result in an objective (as requested in the thread title) perspective, but perhaps it will provide better balance. 

I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.

I agree with you. I would also add that most Orthodox nations' priorities wee similarly not focused on defending Orthodoxy and righteousness. Not that any other nation ever prioritized her religion over worldly concerns and ambitions. I would venture to say that even Islamic countries could fit my characterization.
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2011, 03:55:44 AM »

Standing by for more replies.

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective?

Not sure this will result in an objective (as requested in the thread title) perspective, but perhaps it will provide better balance. 

I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.

So would your preference have been for all Serbs in Bosnia to live as second class citizens under an Islamic dominated government? At least now they have a high level of autonomy and hopefully soon they will have their own independent state or merge with Serbia. When have Christians fared well under Islamic rule?

Even the Croats are agitating for a separate entity in Bosnia, they do not want to play second fiddle to the Muslims.

The Bosnian war was as much about preservation of Serb people in Serb dominated lands as it was about defending Orthodoxy.


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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2011, 11:58:59 AM »

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective?

This isn’t from a Serbian perspective, and actually avoids taking sides about the whole thing, but it’s probably one of the most balanced out there.

http://www.amazon.ca/Sharp-End-Canadian-Soldiers-Story/dp/1550545884

It covers more than just the Balkans, obviously, and has a lot to say about some of the internal politics of the Canadian government and our Armed Forces.  Folks may, or may not, find that interesting.

Having been a Canadian soldier myself, from 1990 to 2000, I can assure you there unfortunately aren’t any works about it from an Orthodox perspective that have any semblance of balance or objectivity.

Personally, I never made it onto a rotation to serve in the “Former Yugoslavia”, as we took to calling it, as the names and borders kept changing – it was hard to keep track for a while.  But, many of my very good friends did.

A close buddy I went through Basic Training with was on an Observation Point just as a JNA (read:  Serbian) advance cut them off from relief and re-supply.  They were out there for 30 days with seven days worth of rations.  He remembers half a Chicklet (that’s a brand name for a piece of gum) being breakfast once.  Near the end of their time there, a Dutch NGO humanitarian convoy (that somehow got through the various blockades) came down the road near their OP.  He and his section robbed them at gunpoint for everything they had that was edible.  The Dutch didn’t make too much fuss about it, considering they were carrying stuff for people in need, and if it turned out that the people in need were Canadian soldiers, then so be it.  I’m pretty sure the drivers weren’t impressed with being tossed out of their vehicles at gunpoint though.  My buddy also remembers, during the same ordeal, chasing a goat that strayed near their outpost with a machete once.  He wanted to kill it and eat it – they were starving remember!  The goat got away.  Only afterwards did he realize that he had chased the goat through a minefield.  Throughout this entire episode, the Serbs kept probing them every couple of days – ie. shooting at them to see if anyone was still alive to shoot back.  Needless to say, the fact that Serbian soldiers were repeatedly trying to kill Canadian peacekeepers (my personal friends included) pretty much tarnishes the idea of “heroic” Serbian “freedom fighters” in my mind.

I also have many good friends that were in the battle of the Medak Pocket, which bizarrely enough, the Croatian government still insists never happened.  They say it’s something the Canadian government cooked up to make the Croatians look bad internationally.

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I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.

As do I.  I have great difficulty with the linking of Serb nationalism and Orthodoxy.  Perhaps that’s because I’m far too aware of the atrocities committed by *all* sides in this conflict.  The battle of the Medak Pocket was all about Croats exterminating an entire village of Serbs.  But, make no mistake, the Serbs did the same to the Croats.  They both did the same to the Muslims, and of course, the Muslims returned the favour.

As I said, I wasn’t ever there, but I heard many stories around the smoking pit.  More than a few were told by guys with tears in their eyes.  Distraught parents come to the Canadian peacekeeper’s camp once. Apparently, their fourteen year old daughter was kidnapped from her family home by Serbian forces.  A few days later, one of our patrols finds a body.  It was of a young female.  She was found naked, tied bent over a chair.  There were clear signs of sexual assault, and her throat had been slit.  She had clearly been raped repeatedly, and then killed to prevent her from making any accusations.

It turns out that her father speaks enough English that you can’t slough this job off onto an interpreter.  How do you tell him what happened to his daughter?  How do you explain that his beautiful baby girl’s only crime was not being Serbian enough?  After you rotate back home, how do you sleep at night knowing what you know?

If anyone knows an answer to the last question, please let me know.

It’s fashionable to critique NATO’s bombing of Serbia.  Yes, they bombed many Churches, Monasteries and Hospitals.  That’s because the Serbian forces were stockpiling weapons there.  Of course, they deny it, and many Orthodox people seem to believe these denials.  It seems that very few Orthodox supporters of the Serbian government had access to the satellite and aerial photographs that NATO had.  Nor were they privy to the human intelligence reports, and likely couldn’t have eavesdropped on the Serbian military telecommunications.  It should be clear by now that I don’t believe their denials for very good reasons.

Yes, atrocities happened, but they were committed by all sides, against all sides.  The Balkans is an area where the fighting was done by various factions of bad guys.  It was void of good guys, no matter how much some folks want to whitewash the historical accounts.
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2011, 12:29:09 PM »

I can't wait to see what "Freedom Fighting Serbian Saints" come out of the woodwork in a few years  Roll Eyes...
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 12:59:11 PM »

I can't wait to see what "Freedom Fighting Serbian Saints" come out of the woodwork in a few years  Roll Eyes...

Already happening.  Can't remember what page it's on, but they refer to a certain former novice who died covering his squad's withdrawal as a "martyr".  He's pictured carrying a processional cross.

http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Lives_of_Saints/book_of_days.htm

FWIW, I'm pretty sure this'd be the first martyr who died while actively trying to kill his opponents.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 01:19:50 PM »

So much for the infallible mind of the Church telling us who're Saints and who aren't. *sigh*
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 01:31:09 PM »

To be honest though, this isn't "the Church" proclaiming this.  This individual has not, and probably never will be, declared a saint, and if he ever were, it certainly wouldn't be as a martyr.  It was just a zealot who made a bad choice regarding what word to use.

Even the St Herman's Monastery has distanced themselves from that comment, because I wrote them years ago, asking about why they used that term, and they said that this was written by someone else, and reflects only that person's personal opinions.  It is not endorsed by the Church, or even by St Herman's Monastery.
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 02:21:27 PM »

So much for the infallible mind of the Church telling us who're Saints and who aren't. *sigh*

Excuse me, but " the infallible mind of the Church" did not glorify this man, fallible people did. There are fallible people who also venerate Rasputin, Tsar Ivan IV "the Terrible" and Joseph Stalin. That does not make them saints, and that does not mean the Church had anything to do with them.

Patriarch Pavle actually excommunicated those committing atrocities. While certain Church figures may have supported the war, it did not have the blessing of the Church.
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2011, 01:21:36 AM »

I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.

So would your preference have been for all Serbs in Bosnia to live as second class citizens under an Islamic dominated government? At least now they have a high level of autonomy and hopefully soon they will have their own independent state or merge with Serbia. When have Christians fared well under Islamic rule?


A proper example of "begging the question" students.  Apparently you will not be providing the "Objective Books about the Balkan Conflict."

The Balkan conflict of the 1990s was not the Battle of Kosovo part II. 

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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2011, 01:31:07 AM »

I agree with you. I would also add that most Orthodox nations' priorities wee similarly not focused on defending Orthodoxy and righteousness. Not that any other nation ever prioritized her religion over worldly concerns and ambitions. I would venture to say that even Islamic countries could fit my characterization.

Agreed, right back atcha!  Smiley

I also agree with Monk Cyprian's assessment.  This was a nasty conflict.  Attempts to make any of the 3 primary parties into heroes fighting villainy (the other guys) seem grossly subjective and inaccurate. 

Still, I welcome recommendations for scholarly, peer-reviewed works that challenge my understanding of the subject.
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2011, 03:11:49 AM »

So much for the infallible mind of the Church telling us who're Saints and who aren't. *sigh*

Excuse me, but " the infallible mind of the Church" did not glorify this man, fallible people did. There are fallible people who also venerate Rasputin, Tsar Ivan IV "the Terrible" and Joseph Stalin. That does not make them saints, and that does not mean the Church had anything to do with them.

Patriarch Pavle actually excommunicated those committing atrocities. While certain Church figures may have supported the war, it did not have the blessing of the Church.
Oh good. I was under the impression this was a universal thing.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2011, 12:37:22 PM »

By the way, you guys might find this interesting:

http://balkanupdate.blogspot.com/2011/02/serb-mercenaries-fighting-on-behalf-of.html

This only strengthens my opinion that Serbia has the right perspective on global affairs (I being of the opinion that the whole Libya thing is about the world bank wanting to stick their dirty hands into the pie that is the Libyan national bank).
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2011, 01:35:19 PM »

^ Not sure where to start on the above. 
-A blog entirely lacking in citations or evidence?
-That alleged Serbian mercenaries represent the Serbian nation and people's "right perspective on global affairs"?
-That the alleged murder of civilians by people motivated by monetary reward is the "right perspective"?

I may conclude, among other things, that you weren't actually searching for objective books on the subject.  Being unqualified to advise, I nevertheless recommend you take a step back from this apparent world view and speak with your priest about refocusing.
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2011, 03:24:02 PM »

By the way, you guys might find this interesting:

http://balkanupdate.blogspot.com/2011/02/serb-mercenaries-fighting-on-behalf-of.html

This only strengthens my opinion that Serbia has the right perspective on global affairs (I being of the opinion that the whole Libya thing is about the world bank wanting to stick their dirty hands into the pie that is the Libyan national bank).

What I find interesting is that you expect participants on this forum to agree with you. I am astounded that a fellow Orthodox holds such warped opinions as you do.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2011, 05:14:09 PM »

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective?

This isn’t from a Serbian perspective, and actually avoids taking sides about the whole thing, but it’s probably one of the most balanced out there.

http://www.amazon.ca/Sharp-End-Canadian-Soldiers-Story/dp/1550545884

It covers more than just the Balkans, obviously, and has a lot to say about some of the internal politics of the Canadian government and our Armed Forces.  Folks may, or may not, find that interesting.

Having been a Canadian soldier myself, from 1990 to 2000, I can assure you there unfortunately aren’t any works about it from an Orthodox perspective that have any semblance of balance or objectivity.

Personally, I never made it onto a rotation to serve in the “Former Yugoslavia”, as we took to calling it, as the names and borders kept changing – it was hard to keep track for a while.  But, many of my very good friends did.

A close buddy I went through Basic Training with was on an Observation Point just as a JNA (read:  Serbian) advance cut them off from relief and re-supply.  They were out there for 30 days with seven days worth of rations.  He remembers half a Chicklet (that’s a brand name for a piece of gum) being breakfast once.  Near the end of their time there, a Dutch NGO humanitarian convoy (that somehow got through the various blockades) came down the road near their OP.  He and his section robbed them at gunpoint for everything they had that was edible.  The Dutch didn’t make too much fuss about it, considering they were carrying stuff for people in need, and if it turned out that the people in need were Canadian soldiers, then so be it.  I’m pretty sure the drivers weren’t impressed with being tossed out of their vehicles at gunpoint though.  My buddy also remembers, during the same ordeal, chasing a goat that strayed near their outpost with a machete once.  He wanted to kill it and eat it – they were starving remember!  The goat got away.  Only afterwards did he realize that he had chased the goat through a minefield.  Throughout this entire episode, the Serbs kept probing them every couple of days – ie. shooting at them to see if anyone was still alive to shoot back.  Needless to say, the fact that Serbian soldiers were repeatedly trying to kill Canadian peacekeepers (my personal friends included) pretty much tarnishes the idea of “heroic” Serbian “freedom fighters” in my mind.

I also have many good friends that were in the battle of the Medak Pocket, which bizarrely enough, the Croatian government still insists never happened.  They say it’s something the Canadian government cooked up to make the Croatians look bad internationally.

Quote
Dear Croatia,

You don’t need us to falsely create anything for you to look bad internationally.  You’re doing that very well all on your own.

Sincerely,
Canada

I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.

As do I.  I have great difficulty with the linking of Serb nationalism and Orthodoxy.  Perhaps that’s because I’m far too aware of the atrocities committed by *all* sides in this conflict.  The battle of the Medak Pocket was all about Croats exterminating an entire village of Serbs.  But, make no mistake, the Serbs did the same to the Croats.  They both did the same to the Muslims, and of course, the Muslims returned the favour.

As I said, I wasn’t ever there, but I heard many stories around the smoking pit.  More than a few were told by guys with tears in their eyes.  Distraught parents come to the Canadian peacekeeper’s camp once. Apparently, their fourteen year old daughter was kidnapped from her family home by Serbian forces.  A few days later, one of our patrols finds a body.  It was of a young female.  She was found naked, tied bent over a chair.  There were clear signs of sexual assault, and her throat had been slit.  She had clearly been raped repeatedly, and then killed to prevent her from making any accusations.

It turns out that her father speaks enough English that you can’t slough this job off onto an interpreter.  How do you tell him what happened to his daughter?  How do you explain that his beautiful baby girl’s only crime was not being Serbian enough?  After you rotate back home, how do you sleep at night knowing what you know?

If anyone knows an answer to the last question, please let me know.

It’s fashionable to critique NATO’s bombing of Serbia.  Yes, they bombed many Churches, Monasteries and Hospitals.  That’s because the Serbian forces were stockpiling weapons there.  Of course, they deny it, and many Orthodox people seem to believe these denials.  It seems that very few Orthodox supporters of the Serbian government had access to the satellite and aerial photographs that NATO had.  Nor were they privy to the human intelligence reports, and likely couldn’t have eavesdropped on the Serbian military telecommunications.  It should be clear by now that I don’t believe their denials for very good reasons.

Yes, atrocities happened, but they were committed by all sides, against all sides.  The Balkans is an area where the fighting was done by various factions of bad guys.  It was void of good guys, no matter how much some folks want to whitewash the historical accounts.


You truthfully pointed out that all sides have committed crimes. But as a conceited person you failed to acknowledge your own western sins in Yugoslav conflict. There would have been no war in Bosnia and Kosovo if it wasn’t for USA and its meddling in Yugoslav affairs.
Bosnia would have been divided among three constitutive nations as agreed by all sides in Lisbon 1992. This would be fair solution and would have ensured peace. But Bosnian Muslims encouraged by US to claim more power started a war against Serbs. Western media then portrayed Muslim aggressors as victims and defenders as aggressors.
In Kosovo instead of supporting Serbian government fighting terrorists, USA supported terrorists and started terrorizing civilian population in Serbia. The reason for bombing of Serbia was incident in village Racak which was never proven to be a massacre by Finnish forensic team. All the crimes against Serbs by Albanians since WW2 and NATO support of terrorists caused retaliation on Albanian population which in turn caused retaliation on Serbs in Kosovo when Albanians returned.
This is how American politics works, first they cause a conflict in a given region, then they pick a side they want to support (always the one that supports them and American ideas), then they support their side in conflict by any military, financial and diplomatic means. All this while they claim to be a neutral side who wants to bring peace, human rights and democracy to a region. In later stages we have American army stationed there “peacekeeping” while the major assets of country are sold to western capitalists. “Rinse and repeat” with another country.
So if you Americans and Canadians are a beacon of freedom and human rights for the whole world then we Serbs are nothing less than angels of Heaven.

 
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2011, 10:12:44 PM »

Dalibor you are 1000% correct. Unfortunately on a forum like this which is predominantly populated by American converts or American born second-third generation cradle Orthodox, there is a lot of anti-Serb feeling and lots of pro-Muslim, pro-Kosovar, pro-US intervention sentiment.

They have no sympathy or understanding of the Serb point of view (not wanting to live under hostile foreign domination).

They do not understand history as those who live or have lived in Europe and whose countries were enslaved by either Muslim, Communist or Fascist regimes.

Although i cannot quote stats, based on polls i have seen over the years, I would venture to say that amongst the Orthodox world there is widespread support for the Serbs. The US (including its Orthodox) is one of the few exceptions.


 
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2011, 10:28:26 PM »

I view claims that the 1990s Serbian govt and forces were defenders of Orthodoxy and righteousness with great skepticism.  I'm open to being corrected though.

So would your preference have been for all Serbs in Bosnia to live as second class citizens under an Islamic dominated government? At least now they have a high level of autonomy and hopefully soon they will have their own independent state or merge with Serbia. When have Christians fared well under Islamic rule?


A proper example of "begging the question" students.  Apparently you will not be providing the "Objective Books about the Balkan Conflict."

The Balkan conflict of the 1990s was not the Battle of Kosovo part II. 



No i won't. I am strongly pro-Serb and make no apologies about it (even though i am not a Serb). But kindly provide an answer - if you were Serb or Croat would you accept a state politically dominated by Muslims and catering to their own interests? A state with imported jihadist elements and supported by extremist funding?

I would not and would fight just like the Serbs did. The Croats made the mistake of later on aligning with the Muslims and have now become marginalised by their Muslim "partners".

Few Serbs or Croats want to live in a unitary Bosnian state. Only idiots who made their fame/fortune manipulating this conflict for their own ends (like Ashdown, Holbrook, Albright) are stupid enough to want to force different groups to live together.

You are right it wasn't Kosovo 2. The Bosnian war was about securing for the Serb people territorial and political independence and security from hostile forces. Prove to me it was otherwise.

 




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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2011, 10:38:37 PM »

Can anyone recommend any books about the war in the Balkans from an Orthodox, or at least a Serbian, perspective? 

Thank you.
I wasn't sure if you wanted:
A. an objective and historically accurate book about the Balkan conflict
OR
B. A book which gives the Serbian perspective on the conflict.
Or if you wanted the recent war, or a book that covers the period from 1804-1999
There is a book by Misha Glenny: The Balkans: Nationalism, War & the Great Powers, 1804-1999 that somw people like.
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2011, 12:31:31 AM »

Apparently you will not be providing the "Objective Books about the Balkan Conflict."

No i won't. I am strongly pro-Serb and make no apologies about it...

Then there really isn't much more to discuss.

Quote
But kindly provide an answer - if you were Serb or Croat would you accept a state politically dominated by Muslims and catering to their own interests? A state with imported jihadist elements and supported by extremist funding?

I would not and would fight just like the Serbs did.

Just in case anyone missed the first example of a begged question: Exhibit B. 

Think what you will, but raping and murdering civilians should not be condoned, nor were these actions representative of Serbia's wonderful Orthodox Christian legacy.  Are all Serbs and the entire govt./force of Serbia complicit? Certainly not.  Should we accept the narrative that the Serbs were to blame for everything and everyone else was a victim? Of course not. But defending some of the acts that occurred does no favor.  Unless, of course, you refuse to believe that these things happened, in which case, the onus is on you convince otherwise. 

Also, it should be noted that no one in this thread has argued against the Serbs having a cause.

Quote
Only idiots who made their fame/fortune manipulating this conflict for their own ends (like Ashdown, Holbrook, Albright) are stupid enough to want to force different groups to live together.
Ever heard of Josip Broz Tito?

Quote
The Bosnian war was about securing for the Serb people territorial and political independence and security from hostile forces. Prove to me it was otherwise.

I decline.  You are not interested in providing or discussing objective sources, and you have not presented any works, reputable or not. Regardless of the reasons for the conflict, elements of Serb forces committed horrible crimes which blackened the image of their own people.  Just being Orthodox does not excuse these actions.

Again, feel free to provide sources for the OP and the rest of us. 

 





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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2011, 12:42:26 AM »

There is a book by Misha Glenny: The Balkans: Nationalism, War & the Great Powers, 1804-1999 that somw people like.

Thank you for at least providing a suggestion.
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2011, 01:08:48 AM »

Just a couple of interesting articles i've accumulated over the years, in regards to NATO involvement. 

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/DIC410A.html

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg121903.htm

Just some interesting perspectives.  Throwing them out there for extra conversation. 
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2011, 02:57:56 AM »

Distraught parents come to the Canadian peacekeeper’s camp once. Apparently, their fourteen year old daughter was kidnapped from her family home by Serbian forces.  A few days later, one of our patrols finds a body.  It was of a young female.  She was found naked, tied bent over a chair.  There were clear signs of sexual assault, and her throat had been slit.  She had clearly been raped repeatedly, and then killed to prevent her from making any accusations.

It turns out that her father speaks enough English that you can’t slough this job off onto an interpreter.  How do you tell him what happened to his daughter?  How do you explain that his beautiful baby girl’s only crime was not being Serbian enough? 
Is it really true that Serbs were doing this?
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2011, 03:44:28 AM »

Apparently you will not be providing the "Objective Books about the Balkan Conflict."

No i won't. I am strongly pro-Serb and make no apologies about it...

Then there really isn't much more to discuss.

Quote
But kindly provide an answer - if you were Serb or Croat would you accept a state politically dominated by Muslims and catering to their own interests? A state with imported jihadist elements and supported by extremist funding?

I would not and would fight just like the Serbs did.

Just in case anyone missed the first example of a begged question: Exhibit B. 

Think what you will, but raping and murdering civilians should not be condoned, nor were these actions representative of Serbia's wonderful Orthodox Christian legacy.  Are all Serbs and the entire govt./force of Serbia complicit? Certainly not.  Should we accept the narrative that the Serbs were to blame for everything and everyone else was a victim? Of course not. But defending some of the acts that occurred does no favor.  Unless, of course, you refuse to believe that these things happened, in which case, the onus is on you convince otherwise. 

Also, it should be noted that no one in this thread has argued against the Serbs having a cause.

Quote
Only idiots who made their fame/fortune manipulating this conflict for their own ends (like Ashdown, Holbrook, Albright) are stupid enough to want to force different groups to live together.
Ever heard of Josip Broz Tito?

Quote
The Bosnian war was about securing for the Serb people territorial and political independence and security from hostile forces. Prove to me it was otherwise.

I decline.  You are not interested in providing or discussing objective sources, and you have not presented any works, reputable or not. Regardless of the reasons for the conflict, elements of Serb forces committed horrible crimes which blackened the image of their own people.  Just being Orthodox does not excuse these actions.

Again, feel free to provide sources for the OP and the rest of us. 

 







It was a situation of kill or be killed whether civilian or combatant. Muslims were warned to move out of Serb areas but didn't thus creating a future demographic problem like Kosovo. Muslim enclaves/safehavens within Serb areas were a totally unacceptable imposition on the Serbs.     

And Muslim civilians were more than ready to kill their Serb neighbours. No one had the moral high ground.

The whole Serb massacre, raping claim has been blown way out of proportion.
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2011, 03:48:21 AM »

The original poster asked for an objective look at the Serbian conflicts.  But then asked for books from a Serbian/Orthodox perspective.  I really can't recommend anthing except:



The Rape of Serbia by Michael Lees, a secular English journalist

http://www.amazon.com/Rape-Serbia-British-Titos-1943-1944/dp/0151959102

This book explains what has led up to the current crisis, orchestrated by Britain in the early portion of the 1900's which sets up the disaster that we see today.  Additionally, I would recommend that the poster look toward the life of Patriarch Pavle (reposed) and research his work with Muslims and his work in Kosovo.  The situation is not one that is easily distilled for western readers.  Only through understanding the role that the Serbian Church has played in the Islamic battle for the Balkans, can one really appreciate the events.  It is sad, it is troubling and you are not human if you can read it without weeping for Serbia, and for the Orthodox Church as a whole.
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2011, 04:03:41 AM »

Apparently you will not be providing the "Objective Books about the Balkan Conflict."

No i won't. I am strongly pro-Serb and make no apologies about it...

Then there really isn't much more to discuss.

Quote
But kindly provide an answer - if you were Serb or Croat would you accept a state politically dominated by Muslims and catering to their own interests? A state with imported jihadist elements and supported by extremist funding?

I would not and would fight just like the Serbs did.

Just in case anyone missed the first example of a begged question: Exhibit B. 

Think what you will, but raping and murdering civilians should not be condoned, nor were these actions representative of Serbia's wonderful Orthodox Christian legacy.  Are all Serbs and the entire govt./force of Serbia complicit? Certainly not.  Should we accept the narrative that the Serbs were to blame for everything and everyone else was a victim? Of course not. But defending some of the acts that occurred does no favor.  Unless, of course, you refuse to believe that these things happened, in which case, the onus is on you convince otherwise. 

Also, it should be noted that no one in this thread has argued against the Serbs having a cause.

Quote
Only idiots who made their fame/fortune manipulating this conflict for their own ends (like Ashdown, Holbrook, Albright) are stupid enough to want to force different groups to live together.
Ever heard of Josip Broz Tito?

Quote
The Bosnian war was about securing for the Serb people territorial and political independence and security from hostile forces. Prove to me it was otherwise.

I decline.  You are not interested in providing or discussing objective sources, and you have not presented any works, reputable or not. Regardless of the reasons for the conflict, elements of Serb forces committed horrible crimes which blackened the image of their own people.  Just being Orthodox does not excuse these actions.

Again, feel free to provide sources for the OP and the rest of us. 

 







It was a situation of kill or be killed whether civilian or combatant. Muslims were warned to move out of Serb areas but didn't thus creating a future demographic problem like Kosovo. Muslim enclaves/safehavens within Serb areas were a totally unacceptable imposition on the Serbs.     

And Muslim civilians were more than ready to kill their Serb neighbours. No one had the moral high ground.

The whole Serb massacre, raping claim has been blown way out of proportion.

Fully agreed with Byron. See the work done by scholar and journalist Srdja Trifkovic in his book, The Sword of the Prophet by Regina Orthodox press and his many articles in Chronicles Magazine. 
The kangaroo court of the Hague is an exercise in political expedience.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2011, 11:50:49 AM »

What I find interesting is that you expect participants on this forum to agree with you. I am astounded that a fellow Orthodox holds such warped opinions as you do.

I suggest that you look up the word "interesting" in the dictionary, as this word merely implies that the concept in question is of relevance, and not that the concept will be agreeable.  Such is the case, for example, if the subject under discussion were mean and disagreeable and unloving Christians, and one were to say, "You guys might find the person, who presumably has a baptismal name but hides behind the handle 'Second Chance', interesting."

Since you have not borne out a proof as to why my opinions are warped, I can only assume that this view is only an opinion.  As such, I myself have the opinion that the reason why you have this opinion is that you whole-heartedly swallow whatever our Freemason/homo-mongering socialist media force-feed you.
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2011, 12:05:20 PM »

^ Not sure where to start on the above. 
-A blog entirely lacking in citations or evidence?
-That alleged Serbian mercenaries represent the Serbian nation and people's "right perspective on global affairs"?
-That the alleged murder of civilians by people motivated by monetary reward is the "right perspective"?

I may conclude, among other things, that you weren't actually searching for objective books on the subject.  Being unqualified to advise, I nevertheless recommend you take a step back from this apparent world view and speak with your priest about refocusing.

"^ Not sure where to start on the above."  - Then don't.

"-A blog entirely lacking in citations or evidence?"  - I myself didn't read the blog to look for citations or evidence, but see below.

"-That alleged Serbian mercenaries represent the Serbian nation and people's "right perspective on global affairs"?" - Seeing that you yourself apparently didn't read my own post, where I plainly said that all of this was an OPINION, you can hardly blame me for not looking for citations or evidence.

-That the alleged murder of civilians by people motivated by monetary reward is the "right perspective"? - See above

"I nevertheless recommend you take a step back from this apparent world view and speak with your priest about refocusing." - Since I suffer from sins that are far graver than merely having the wrong world-view (see my sarcasm), I can hardly view this as a very high priority.






 
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2011, 02:00:33 PM »

Distraught parents come to the Canadian peacekeeper’s camp once. Apparently, their fourteen year old daughter was kidnapped from her family home by Serbian forces.  A few days later, one of our patrols finds a body.  It was of a young female.  She was found naked, tied bent over a chair.  There were clear signs of sexual assault, and her throat had been slit.  She had clearly been raped repeatedly, and then killed to prevent her from making any accusations.

It turns out that her father speaks enough English that you can’t slough this job off onto an interpreter.  How do you tell him what happened to his daughter?  How do you explain that his beautiful baby girl’s only crime was not being Serbian enough? 
Is it really true that Serbs were doing this?
Do you really think I'd make something like that up?
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2011, 02:02:55 PM »

But as a conceited person...

What gives you the impression I'm conceited?
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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2011, 03:18:31 PM »

But as a conceited person...

What gives you the impression I'm conceited?

Because he wants so badly to believe that a Holy Monk of the Church can possess such a downfall, that way he can puff himself at his own non-possession of conceit while yet remaining a mere laymen (which would itself be a conceit).  He wants to get laid and be holier than everyone else.  See "cake".
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2011, 03:28:58 PM »

...a Holy Monk...

Well, monk, yes; holy, not so much.  I am arrogant, prideful and conceited, to be sure, but I just wasn't aware of how I let that slip out in my above posts.
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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2011, 05:03:09 PM »

Distraught parents come to the Canadian peacekeeper’s camp once. Apparently, their fourteen year old daughter was kidnapped from her family home by Serbian forces.  A few days later, one of our patrols finds a body.  It was of a young female.  She was found naked, tied bent over a chair.  There were clear signs of sexual assault, and her throat had been slit.  She had clearly been raped repeatedly, and then killed to prevent her from making any accusations.

It turns out that her father speaks enough English that you can’t slough this job off onto an interpreter.  How do you tell him what happened to his daughter?  How do you explain that his beautiful baby girl’s only crime was not being Serbian enough? 
Is it really true that Serbs were doing this?
Do you really think I'd make something like that up?
No. I found it extremely tragic and horrible. A very sad commentary on those who were doing such. I will pray that men's hearts may be infused with more charity toward others.
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« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2011, 02:06:50 AM »

But as a conceited person...

What gives you the impression I'm conceited?

You criticized everyone else in these conflicts except your allies from the West, the devil that brought the war and committed crimes as well. Then you concluded that Serbian perspective cannot be objective, meaning we should turn to “objective” western onlookers for truth.
You sound very much like self righteous westerner who is oblivious to the sins of his western civilization while you are very open to list sins of Balkan nations you are judging.

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« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2011, 10:47:53 AM »

You criticized everyone else in these conflicts...

So, a non sequitor argument from silence equals conceit in your mind?  Use logic much?

...the West, the devil that brought the war and committed crimes as well.

Thank you for conjecturing that a geographical half of the globe is allied with the enemy of our souls.

Then you concluded that Serbian perspective cannot be objective...

Can you relate exactly how I did that?  I'm pretty sure I implied that all the stuff that equates Orthodoxy with Serbian Nationalism is nonsense, but that's about it.  I never said the Serbian perspective couldn't be objective.  I just have yet to encounter pro-Serbian objectivism - yourself included.

You sound very much like...

Meaning you are judging me on what you assume is my attitude and intent.

Your own objectivity, or distinct lack thereof, is on display for all to see.

I rest my case, M'Lord.
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