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Author Topic: Does the growth of Islam in your city/country disturb you?  (Read 4283 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2011, 02:49:42 AM »

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls. 

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.

I stress that these were primarily Middle Eastern - Lebanese Muslims or refugees with limited education.

I've met educated Muslims from West Africa and South East Asia and they are quite different in mentality. One couple, who are devout even attended a friends Christening at church and drink wine! However these are the few exceptions.

They even have plans to form a political party.

Like Bogdan said - i view Islam as a threat to both Christianity and secularism. Whether we like it or not world domination is their goal.

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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2011, 03:18:14 AM »

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.
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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2011, 10:29:53 AM »

Quote
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
  Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
I was just kidding. I actually think that those proposals are very, very ridiculous. The nature of our democracy virtually cancels out an possibility of Sharia law actually becoming the rule of law. Not as long as the Supreme Court exists!

Should we then institute anti-anarchy, anti-communist, anti-whatever legislation, then? It's just a symbolic stand. We should let our governance speak for itself.
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« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2011, 02:18:43 PM »

I'm no real fan of western culture either. "Freedom" is freedom from God, and the belief that Orthodoxy can be wrong, so that everyone should get a choice for what THEY think is right. It leads to relative morality, and invenitably leads to the downfall of religion like we see in all western countries. Not to mention the church fathers supported monarchy.
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« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2011, 02:38:58 PM »

I see Islam as a Christian heresy like some Church Fathers. Demonic or not, what are you going to do?

It seems the Gospel is pretty clear on these matters.

And FWIW, to put it very politically incorrectly, when Muslim immigrants displace the urban Black populace around me, crime goes down and things are generally "better", if you want a secular, pragmatic single data point.

Their children are: Yes sir. No sir. The men are always polite and law abiding. The mothers stay home with the children and give them plenty of attention and discipline.

I lived with three Muslims once. One was a Muslim teacher. Probably never had more congenial and thoughtful and polite housemates, ever.

I am not dismissing your analysis of the origins of Islam or its possible influence in the world today, I am just stating what I've seen and experienced.

If loving them is not the answer while remaining truthful (mainly to ourselves), then what would you say is?

I think Of Gods and Men treated this problem wonderfully.


I have no doubt that many Muslims, especially in the West, are very upstanding people. I had a classmate in college who was part of a black nationalist branch of Islam, and he was always an upstanding and respectable guy. Anyone who thinks that Muslims are all wild-eyed, bloodthirsty beasts are crazy.

That said, I think it's more insidious than that. I personally side with Fr Alexander Schmemmann in "For the Life of the World", that a definition of secularism is attempting to fix the world's ills apart from Christ. So when we stand with Muslims to effect a more moral society, we are in fact committing secularism. There is no value in changing the world if Christ isn't at the center of it. Any value is only fleshly and worldly.

I think Islam (and any religion) can negatively impact Christianity in various ways. One way is by killing and destruction. Another way is by making us join hands to create a better world under the banner of generic humanism.

I do believe that pure Islam is the violent form. But even joining with peaceful Muslims is mere secularism. It goes without saying that it does not, however, give license to threaten Muslims or do anything but pray for them.
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« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2011, 02:56:45 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Quote
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
 Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
I was just kidding. I actually think that those proposals are very, very ridiculous. The nature of our democracy virtually cancels out an possibility of Sharia law actually becoming the rule of law. Not as long as the Supreme Court exists!
False hope. It has already happened.
Quote
Sharia in New Jersey: Muslim husband rapes wife, judge sees no sexual assault because Islam forbids wives to refuse sex
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/sharia-islamic-law-in-new-jersey-court-muslim-husband-rapes-beats-sexually-abuses-wife-judge-sees-no.html
btw, it wasn't bare refusal: he was abusing her during intercourse.

The decision was later overturned on a appeal, but do you have any idea how many bad decisions are not appealed, given the expense and grief invovled? Btw, IIRC, the wife was underage according to US law, but not the shariah, and came in on a wife visa.
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2011, 03:16:28 PM »

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls.  

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.



That sounds like a picnic compared to where I live. The bolded part of your reply you can pretty much apply to many groups of unsupervised male youth, whether in combat, in the urban ghettos, college frat houses, etc.

Sounds terrible, but Islam ain't cornered the market on male idiocy.
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2011, 03:22:36 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls.  

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.



That sounds like a picnic compared to where I live. The bolded part of your reply you can pretty much apply to many groups of unsupervised male youth, whether in combat, in the urban ghettos, college frat houses, etc.

Sounds terrible, but Islam ain't cornered the market on male idiocy.
But it has put in a bid for cornering the market on legitimizing it.  (btw, the domestic courts do that for female idiocy).
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 03:29:56 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls.  

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.



That sounds like a picnic compared to where I live. The bolded part of your reply you can pretty much apply to many groups of unsupervised male youth, whether in combat, in the urban ghettos, college frat houses, etc.

Sounds terrible, but Islam ain't cornered the market on male idiocy.
But it has put in a bid for cornering the market on legitimizing it.  (btw, the domestic courts do that for female idiocy).

Point taken.
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2011, 08:03:54 PM »

Quote
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
  Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
I was just kidding. I actually think that those proposals are very, very ridiculous. The nature of our democracy virtually cancels out an possibility of Sharia law actually becoming the rule of law. Not as long as the Supreme Court exists!

Should we then institute anti-anarchy, anti-communist, anti-whatever legislation, then? It's just a symbolic stand. We should let our governance speak for itself.

Too late:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAur_I077NA
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2011, 08:13:30 PM »

McCarthyism didn't result in actual legislation against Communism, as far as I know.

(Unless you count the House Committee on Un-American Activities as legislation? Still unfortunate all around.)
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2011, 09:30:28 PM »

McCarthyism didn't result in actual legislation against Communism, as far as I know.

(Unless you count the House Committee on Un-American Activities as legislation? Still unfortunate all around.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Efforts to protect the United States from the perceived threat of Communist subversion were particularly enabled by several federal laws. The Alien Registration Act or Smith Act of 1940 made it a criminal offense for anyone to "knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the [...] desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association". Hundreds of Communists and others were prosecuted under this law between 1941 and 1957. Eleven leaders of the Communist Party were charged and convicted under the Smith Act in 1949. Ten defendants were given sentences of five years and the eleventh was sentenced to three years. All of the defense attorneys were cited for contempt of court and were also given prison sentences.[30] In 1951, twenty-three other leaders of the party were indicted, including Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, a founding member of the American Civil Liberties Union; many were convicted on the basis of testimony that was later admitted to be false.[31] By 1957, 140 leaders and members of the Communist Party had been charged under the law, with 93 being convicted.[32]

The McCarran Internal Security Act, which became law in 1950, has been described by scholar Ellen Schrecker as "the McCarthy era's only important piece of legislation"[33] (the Smith Act technically predated McCarthyism). However, the McCarran Act had no real effect beyond legal harassment. It required the registration of Communist organizations with the U.S. Attorney General and established the Subversive Activities Control Board to investigate possible Communist-action and Communist-front organizations so they could be required to register. Due to numerous hearings, delays and appeals, the act was never enforced, even with regard to the Communist Party of the United States itself, and the major provisions of the act were found to be unconstitutional in 1965 and 1967.[34] In 1952, the Immigration and Nationality, or McCarran-Walter, Act was passed. This law allowed the government to deport immigrants or naturalized citizens engaged in subversive activities and also to bar suspected subversives from entering the country.

The Communist Control Act of 1954 was passed with overwhelming support in both houses of Congress after very little debate. Jointly drafted by Republican John Marshall Butler and Democrat Hubert Humphrey, the law was an extension of the Internal Security Act of 1950, and sought to outlaw the Communist Party by declaring that the party, as well as "Communist-Infiltrated Organizations" were "not entitled to any of the rights, privileges, and immunities attendant upon legal bodies". The Communist Control Act never had any significant effect, and was perhaps most notable for the odd mix of liberals and conservatives among its supporters. It was successfully applied only twice: in 1954 it was used to prevent Communist Party members from appearing on the New Jersey state ballot, and in 1960 it was cited to deny the CPUSA recognition as an employer under New York State's unemployment compensation system. The New York Post called the act "a monstrosity", "a wretched repudiation of democratic principles," while The Nation accused Democratic liberals of a "neurotic, election-year anxiety to escape the charge of being 'soft on Communism' even at the expense of sacrificing constitutional rights."

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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2011, 09:34:48 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2011, 09:38:58 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.

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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2011, 09:42:26 PM »

The Spirit is desceded!
McCarthyism didn't result in actual legislation against Communism, as far as I know.

(Unless you count the House Committee on Un-American Activities as legislation? Still unfortunate all around.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Efforts to protect the United States from the perceived threat of Communist subversion
Marc, the Soviet archives have been opened.  The McCarthyites perceived correctly.  The Rosenbergs were guilty.
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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2011, 09:47:31 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.
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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2011, 09:57:33 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.



The CPUSA cheered on the use of the Smith Act against their competition on the Left especially when it was used to Jail Trotskyists during World War two. Then it was used on them. 
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2011, 12:25:44 AM »

The growth doesn't really disturb me, because honestly I'm not a big fan of all of the hedonism and materialism characteristic of our cultures right now. I am a fan of the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas, but I'm not opposed to a segment of the population increasing which shares my disdain for most of what passes for Western "culture" these days. They'd be a welcome ally for a more moral society.
Tell me this doesn't disturb you as much as secular hedonistic materialism: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhiMSvz6iH8

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI8PP0JnsW0

Or this:
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

Or this:
free download:  Serge Trifkovich, Sword of the Prophet: History, Theology, Impact on the World (Regina: Orthodox Press, 2002).
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2011, 01:29:14 AM »

Tell me this doesn't disturb you as much as secular hedonistic materialism:

That's weird, I've never heard of any of that stuff before.
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2011, 03:01:17 AM »

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2011, 03:15:44 AM »

Yes.  One of the few people on this forum who was a practicing Muslim for almost ten years, I can tell you that there is a deep desire for revenge against a deep-seated hatred for all things perceived as being "Crusader".  I reckon all those who said "no" will probably sing a different tune when they're paying their dhimmi taxes. 
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2011, 03:34:03 AM »

What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick! I am seriously thinking of leaving the Church and turning my heart/mind into my personal parish.  Cry
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2011, 05:26:02 AM »

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 

The argument against them is that Islam is alien to the Polish Catholic nation. The Eastern Orthodox Christianity is alien to so I think If I don't want to wake up one day and realise that they are anti-Orthodox pogroms it's better not to support such close-minded views.
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2011, 07:43:37 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick! I am seriously thinking of leaving the Church and turning my heart/mind into my personal parish.  Cry
God forbid! What would that do?  Protestants erect their own parish, or rather papacy, and many of them are actually confessing shahadah "as solidarity." Such things happen when you throw out the anchor because some fool has taken hold temporarily of the helm.
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2011, 09:40:32 AM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2011, 10:16:41 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 

The argument against them is that Islam is alien to the Polish Catholic nation. The Eastern Orthodox Christianity is alien to so I think If I don't want to wake up one day and realise that they are anti-Orthodox pogroms it's better not to support such close-minded views.
build a synagogue then.  They are less dangerous (at least in Poland), and since Jews have been in Poland before it was a Kingdom, and Poland (and I'm presuming Lithuania and Belorussia) alone among Europe never expelled its Jews (at one point 3/4 of all world Jewry lived in the PL Commonwealth), can't claim it's "alien to the Polish Catholic nation."
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2011, 10:17:00 AM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.

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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2011, 10:33:46 AM »

I will say that much of this growth (in America) is from aimless immigration policies to fulfill the vision of a fool's paradise by dreamers who wash their hands of possible future culural conflicts. Nonetheless, those of us who are less exalted & still much aware of our sins must realize that as Christians we must strive to conduct ourselves as such in conformity to our Lord's commands unto death (will I pass this test? I don't know.). I take note of passages in Deuteronomy 15:7-11, 24:10-22; Leviticus 19:9-10,23:22; Sirach 11:27-32 & all of chptr 12; & ponder thse alongside our Lord's commands especially in Matthew 5 & 7:1-12.
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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2011, 11:27:08 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.
Why? Aren't they entitled to one? The Amerindians, Aleuts etc. have no other, as neither do the Cajun, Amish (and in some sense) Mormons, and (though many will deny it) the blacks.
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2011, 11:33:30 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.
Why? Aren't they entitled to one? The Amerindians, Aleuts etc. have no other, as neither do the Cajun, Amish (and in some sense) Mormons, and (though many will deny it) the blacks.

Am I to believe you are truly missing my point?
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« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2011, 11:35:25 AM »

Quote
When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.

America is my homeland. The reason is simple. I was born here, as my father before me, and his father before him, and his father before him. No different than Amerindians, which I hate to say it, they're not "native" either. They were just here longer. They came over the land bridge. Everyone's people migrated from somewhere else.

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« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2011, 01:16:47 PM »

I'll get back to the homeland point later. Obviously you all need to be schooled. Frankly, I think ialmisry is going all Socratic on me.
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« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2011, 02:36:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 

That shouldn't surprise you, we Orthodox should not relish in cultural chauvinism.  In Ethiopia 10 times as many mosques are being built in Addis Ababa and surrounding suburbs then are Orthodox Churches, this does make me nervous, but not because there are new mosques, rather because of the lack of new churches, which realistically has NOTHING to do with Islam, but is an internal, Christian problem.

I am an American, we live and embrace plurality, because this is common decency.  We are not perfect, but at least our ideal is to aim for mutual respect and tolerance (even if through American bombs, war, and racism we fall quite short quite often Sad )


We only stoke more fires when we are racist, prejudiced, or discriminating.  Further, what about what Apostle Paul told Timothy, "I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels, that you should guard these things apart from prejudice, doing nothing from bias." Timothy 5:22

Two wrongs never make a right, and as cliched as it is, the Good Dr King was correct when he gave his life telling us, "eye for an eye leaves us all blinded."

What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick!

What political games? Jesus Christ asked us to love and pray for our enemies, and to pray for those who curse and abuse us spitefully!! How much more than should we be striving for sincere peace and tolerance? How is that a game exactly? What would you prefer, we just genocide all the Muslims off the earth? Peace and tolerance are neither fake nor games, but folks with such negative sentiments as you've posted here only make things worse.  Many of us ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS across the world are for genuine PEACE AND TOLERANCE, you should be more careful not to disrespect us then when expressing your short-sited, self-interested opinions..


The radicalists are blowing things up and terrorizing people precisely because they WANT us to react with fear, prejudice, and yes, violence.  We should be CHRISTIANS, and react with LOVE, CONSOLATION, and PEACE from Jesus Christ in our hearts.  I am so deeply concerned at the amount ornery animosity and even hatred expressed towards Muslims on this forum, many of y'all (who shall remain nameless) should be ridiculously ashamed of yourself Sad

Stay blessed,
Habte Selassie

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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2011, 02:57:09 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.



You are entirely correct that the principle has been misused. I also get jittery when I read what I wrote or hear similar arguments/terminology. I guess the political philosophy of the speaker/writer and his principles must be taken into account. Similarly, whenever I hear somebody talk about peace and democracy, I do not automatically assume that he meant what he said. The late and very much unlamented Communist dictatorships, for example, often turned those words on their head.

Regarding Americans using the word "homeland," I do not think that there is anything wrong with it per se. It is unfortunate that that word was misused in the past by folks like Hitler and Stalin, making it suspect when one uses it today. Again, I think that the background and intent of the reader must be taken into account. I guess in some circles, the word "sin" is also regarded with suspicion and aversion. Nothing wrong with it of course but some folks see a connotation of unthinking cruelty and narrow mindedness.
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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2011, 03:07:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one?  

That shouldn't surprise you, we Orthodox should not relish in cultural chauvinism.  In Ethiopia 10 times as many mosques are being built in Addis Ababa and surrounding suburbs then are Orthodox Churches, this does make me nervous, but not because there are new mosques, rather because of the lack of new churches, which realistically has NOTHING to do with Islam, but is an internal, Christian problem.

I am an American, we live and embrace plurality, because this is common decency.  We are not perfect, but at least our ideal is to aim for mutual respect and tolerance (even if through American bombs, war, and racism we fall quite short quite often Sad )


We only stoke more fires when we are racist, prejudiced, or discriminating.  Further, what about what Apostle Paul told Timothy, "I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels, that you should guard these things apart from prejudice, doing nothing from bias." Timothy 5:22

Two wrongs never make a right, and as cliched as it is, the Good Dr King was correct when he gave his life telling us, "eye for an eye leaves us all blinded."

What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick!

What political games? Jesus Christ asked us to love and pray for our enemies, and to pray for those who curse and abuse us spitefully!! How much more than should we be striving for sincere peace and tolerance? How is that a game exactly? What would you prefer, we just genocide all the Muslims off the earth? Peace and tolerance are neither fake nor games, but folks with such negative sentiments as you've posted here only make things worse.  Many of us ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS across the world are for genuine PEACE AND TOLERANCE, you should be more careful not to disrespect us then when expressing your short-sited, self-interested opinions..


The radicalists are blowing things up and terrorizing people precisely because they WANT us to react with fear, prejudice, and yes, violence.  We should be CHRISTIANS, and react with LOVE, CONSOLATION, and PEACE from Jesus Christ in our hearts.  I am so deeply concerned at the amount ornery animosity and even hatred expressed towards Muslims on this forum, many of y'all (who shall remain nameless) should be ridiculously ashamed of yourself Sad

Stay blessed,
Habte Selassie



Habte--I greatly respect your opinion and I happen to agree with most of your posts. However, I must disagree with you on this one thing. It is one thing to hate/dislike Muslims and another to hold to view that Islam is an evil religion. Now, granted that most folks conflate the two and start to hate Muslims.I do not hate Muslims. I do think that Islam contains commandments and permissions to do evil things. Since, these elements of Islam cannot be separated from the other sections (as Muslims insist that all is providential, with the Quran having been written by Allah), the logical conclusion is inescapable. Now, this does not mean that Christians must hate Muslims. Indeed, as some Evangelicals say we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Bottom line, we shoiuld use discretion and use the approach that serves the Lord the best. That does not mean, however, we should ignore reality.
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« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2011, 03:37:57 PM »

Quote
I do think that Islam contains commandments and permissions to do evil things. Since, these elements of Islam cannot be separated from the other sections (as Muslims insist that all is providential, with the Quran having been written by Allah), the logical conclusion is inescapable. Now, this does not mean that Christians must hate Muslims. Indeed, as some Evangelicals say we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Bottom line, we shoiuld use discretion and use the approach that serves the Lord the best. That does not mean, however, we should ignore reality

I second that SC. Well said.

I admittedly, despise Islam. I've read the Quran from cover to cover and I can only state that it give great freedom to their adherents to commit acts which would be considered not only criminal, but inhumane. However, I love Muslims (in fact I admire some Muslims in history very much) and I pray they come to the Lord Jesus.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the "minority" of these "radical" muslims is alot more widespread than the more politically correct are willing to admit to. Which is why I worry.

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« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2011, 05:56:56 PM »


What political games? Jesus Christ asked us to love and pray for our enemies, and to pray for those who curse and abuse us spitefully!!

Did Jesus Christ ask you to support anti-Christian ideologies? For instance, did you pray for the success of the Communists?

How much more than should we be striving for sincere peace and tolerance? How is that a game exactly? What would you prefer, we just genocide all the Muslims off the earth?

Sincere peace and tolerance? So you believe we must help Islamists get what they want? Your sincere peace and tolerance will allow the Islamist armies to conquer Europe, tear down churches and rape even babies in their cradles?  Roll Eyes

Peace and tolerance are neither fake nor games, but folks with such negative sentiments as you've posted here only make things worse.  Many of us ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS across the world are for genuine PEACE AND TOLERANCE, you should be more careful not to disrespect us then when expressing your short-sited, self-interested opinions..

Your peace and tolerance has gained you the logical fallacy of straw-man.

Please answer this question: your understanding of peace and tolerance makes you also shed tears for the fallen demons? My advice to you: Sell what you have and donate to atheists or Satanists so that we can witness your sincere love and tolerance then! 
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« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2011, 06:55:59 PM »

Be wise as serpents, but innocent as doves, the Lord said.

I think there is a paradox here, as with many things in Orthodoxy.

Loving the sinner, hating the sin. Recognizing the error of the heresy, and yet also recognizing the bits of truth there in spite of the lies. This is how Orthodox evangelism has always been done. We have two issues at work--a political one and a religious one. In Orthodoxy, politics is (ideally) informed by religion. In Mohammedanism and in Communism, everything is political. Islam preaches a carnal spirituality, Marxism teaches materialism, they are both militant and force an alternative "religion." And yet, many have been drawn to truth reading passages from the Koran and pondering them, and others have been come to faith, as Fr. Dmitri Dudko said, "through the back door" of believing in the non-existence of God. As Orthodox Christians, we are always going to have enemies and be persecuted--from heretics, from unbelievers, from pagans, from Jews, from false brethren, from atheists, from secular humanists, etc. We have no fellowship with any of them, and yet our mission is to live Orthodoxy so that they might see it and be saved.

While Islam and Marxism are full of evils, there are many Muslims and atheists of goodwill. They are repulsed by evil, and yearn for the truth, though they don't know it since their ideologies have put up blinders. As a historian, I cannot say that these groups have always been violent all the time. It is not true. It is not true, either, that Christians have always kept Christ's commandments all the time. I do not believe that all religions teach love of neighbor the way that Christianity does, but I do believe that all people are capable of finding the good, or of following after evil in a capacity as large as the soul.

So, I think, rather than putting people into categories of good and evil or dangerous and less dangerous based on ideology, if we have to categorize, we should look at actions and motives. Much violence has come from ignorance and idleness--on our part and on theirs. The general trajectory of the world is toward an increase of evil, a heightened paranoia, and toward the martyrdom of all who stand for goodness and truth. But, if we endeavor more and more to live Orthodox lives and work for increased goodness and truth, not being suspicious or afraid, but being the first to show kindness, we may just be able to work about a change in heart in those who are afraid of us or see us as enemies. Many times, through this way of action, sworn enemies have been reconciled. And, if not, then we will endure persecution with faith and the help of God. It is what I vowed to do at baptism, to always be ready to suffer and die for the love of Jesus Christ. God rules the world still, and always shall. Neither my worries or political machinations, nor actions of government, can prevent what God's will has ordered. But prayer and love and philotimo can change the whole game to such a degree that the weak become strong, the blind see, and the deaf hear the word of God and believe it.
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