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Author Topic: Does the growth of Islam in your city/country disturb you?  (Read 4444 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 15, 2011, 05:30:07 AM »

I was looking at some religion statistics for Canada and noticed that Islam is due to increase from 2.7% of the population to almost 7% by 2031. This is a whopping 224.7% change, the highest of any religion!
This means almost 3 million Muslims in a total population of 42 million.

Orthodoxy will only grow from 1.7% to 2.3% or a 72.8% change.

No doubt a similar situation is occuring in Australia, Europe (France, Germany, Netherlands, UK in particular) and the USA. Rapid growth of Muslims.

Frankly i find these statistics very disturbing almost frightening. I consider a sizable section of the Islamic community in my country to be intolerant, bigoted and have a hatred of everything western. Even on tonight's news there is a story about an Islamic imam living here that preaches hate.

From personal experience, if found that in areas where Muslims have congregated crime rates have gone up, areas have deterioted in terms of cleanliness and general upkeep of buildings and real estate values have declined. A lot of them have also formed criminal gangs and networks and i'm talking about the native born ones. Going to the local shops you see hijabs and burqas everywhere even on little girls. New mosques and Islamic schools are opening up everywhere.

Is this happening in your city? Even if not, how would you feel if one day you woke up and had a mosque or Islamic school under construction near your residence? Or that 1 in 10 of your countrymen will be Muslim in a few years?

And what could you possibly do to stop this trend, if you so wished?













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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 05:56:20 AM »

What disturbs me is not the growth of Islam, but the decline in Christianity. From personal experience it seems that many nominal Christians are beginning to take their faith more seriously after having been exposed to the dedication and fervour of their Muslim friends and colleagues, so perhaps the growth of Islam could paradoxically lead also to a growth in the number of practicing Christians.
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 09:25:37 AM »

I think the explosive growth of Islam, and the norms and requirements of that religion, destroy the theory shared by some bishops that the Church needs to adapt her externals to Western norms to make it more attractive.

(E.g., cassocks and beards scare people, services are too long, standard prayer rules are too stringent, fasting is too difficult, churches are only recognizable if they have pews and organs, etc.)

People are converting to a harsh ascetic religion like Islam in droves, and they got all their ascetic ideas from us! So why water down Orthodoxy when many Westerners are finding they desire asceticism in their lives?

Clearly the message to Orthodoxy is: become more visible and don't betray the ascetic nature of our faith to attract people.
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 12:30:56 PM »

I think the explosive growth of Islam, and the norms and requirements of that religion, destroy the theory shared by some bishops that the Church needs to adapt her externals to Western norms to make it more attractive.

(E.g., cassocks and beards scare people, services are too long, standard prayer rules are too stringent, fasting is too difficult, churches are only recognizable if they have pews and organs, etc.)

People are converting to a harsh ascetic religion like Islam in droves, and they got all their ascetic ideas from us! So why water down Orthodoxy when many Westerners are finding they desire asceticism in their lives?

Clearly the message to Orthodoxy is: become more visible and don't betray the ascetic nature of our faith to attract people.
This question isn't necessarily for you, bogdan. Is the growth in Islam due primarily to birthrate, immigration, or conversion? Yes, I know all three are factors, but where is the biggest growth seen?

Whatever the answer, it doesn't negate bogdan's position that we Orthodox can compete with Islamic asceticism. He's quite right.
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 12:37:18 PM »

No.
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 12:38:26 PM »

The growth doesn't really disturb me, because honestly I'm not a big fan of all of the hedonism and materialism characteristic of our cultures right now. I am a fan of the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas, but I'm not opposed to a segment of the population increasing which shares my disdain for most of what passes for Western "culture" these days. They'd be a welcome ally for a more moral society.
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 01:17:03 PM »

The growth doesn't really disturb me, because honestly I'm not a big fan of all of the hedonism and materialism characteristic of our cultures right now. I am a fan of the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas, but I'm not opposed to a segment of the population increasing which shares my disdain for most of what passes for Western "culture" these days. They'd be a welcome ally for a more moral society.

Excepting that over the course of the history of Christianity and Islam, the times when such an alliance was workable are far overshadowed by conflict and conquest. Also, I don't see how you can equate their ascetic beliefs with morality since Sharia and western law are in such basic conflict.
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »

They'd be a welcome ally for a more moral society.

....be careful whom you consider an ally.

Wolves in sheep's clothing, comes to mind.

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 01:35:01 PM »

I've seen Orthodox Christians described in very negative terms with some of the same adjectives as Mohammedans. So, I would  hope that, if and when the Orthodox population grows through evangelism and increased birth rates, others will not be alarmed that our culture is taking over. (I recall the Crimean War when the West preferred the Turks over the Russians out of fear.)

The more time I spend on this forum, the less I feel comfortable in describing what Orthodox Christians, as individuals, do, how they live, and even, sadly, what they believe. I am willing to expand that thinking to Mohammedans and even secularized Western people.

As only a very small percentage of Orthodox Christians are regular church attendants and active participants in the faith they claim, I am willing to believe that the same is true for Mohammedans, and that our real war is not with Mohammedanism, but with demons and the more illusive enemies of civilization--ignorance and want. One does not have to be a member of a specific religion or nationality to be afflicted with either of these.
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 01:44:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

No it doesn't, at least not here in the United States.  As an American, I enjoy plurality and diversity, it helps us all grow and become more grounded and realistic people, especially in regards to our Faith.  It is only in the face of adversity that you learn the depth of Faith and Hope, in a monoculture things get dull spiritually speaking. 

Further, I have Faith that Christ can speak for Himself on His own terms, I am merely His witness.  I can only testify, I can't coerce or force others to see the Light if they simply can't perceive it yet.  So we must carry on in Faith, being good witnesses.

I am a bit concerned about the rise of Islam in Ethiopia, where it is growing ten times as fast as Orthodox Christianity, but this is of course the result of increasing secularization of Ethiopian culture and clime which allows the Orthodox to release its previously Medieval hold on Ethiopian society.  The reality is that half of Ethiopia as almost always been Muslim, its just that today they are becoming far more visible  and vocal. 

But that is not what concerns me, I am not afraid of Islam, Jesus Christ can stand up to Islam's misconceptions about Him.  What concerns me more so is the rise in radicalist Islam, which is really more so a political ideology than a religion.  Radicalist Islam in Ethiopia manifests itself as an Anti-Western, Anti-Imperialist, Anti-Capitalist agenda where militants attack the government, businesses, and civil society in an idealistic attempt create their own image of perfection.  Islam is merely one facet of their agenda, politics and economics are perhaps far more immediate and impacting.  The Somalis are not attacking Ethiopians out of religious tension, its politics, economics, and geography.

So I am disturbed by that growing trend, and radicalism in Ethiopia is not just rising in Islamic communities, many Christians are reacting to the horribly oppressive Ethiopian regime with the same kinds of fervor.  In the US, I actually favor an increase in Islam, it will acclimatize Americans away from their prejudices, racist sentiments, and misconceptions about Arabs and Muslims, and American ignorance of Islam has fueled xenophobia to the point of blood lust and battle cries which is very opposite of Christian humility.

Stay Blessed,
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 01:50:41 PM »

They'd be a welcome ally for a more moral society.

....be careful whom you consider an ally.

Wolves in sheep's clothing, comes to mind.



The enemy of my enemy is an enemy to be dealt with later.


To fight the Moslems, perhaps more Orthodox folks should get married and have kids.  There are people converting to Orthodoxy (check out the Convert Forum) so the main thing we need is a greater natural output of Christians.  I guess there's also the need to keep them Christian as they get older.  All of the Churches I attend tend to have a rather large number of old folks and a number of young children.  Not too many people in the late teens and early 20's-30's.

Then there's always the Martyrdom option.  If the Mozzie kills you, you get a crown and he will be surprised to find that his houries turned into harpies!
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 02:07:18 PM »

It doesn't bother me any, nope.

I have only been looking at Christianity since last October but from what i seen allot of Christians are either asleep or naive or arrogant IDK.
I used to go out with a Muslim bloke (Tariq) for three years nearly and he said that no Islamic country would let Christians put up temples to their God and take as much ground as the British are doing in the interests of tolerance and inclusivity.
I think the govt. multifaith society will come back and bite them in the bum one day. Christians and Muslims can either work together on the issues they have got in common like....morality (as someone already said) or they will end up against each other with the Christians wondering why they didn't fight more to keep their country as Christian with a capital C.

Either way, Christians will get stronger in there faith and that will be a good thing.
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 02:18:26 PM »

I think the explosive growth of Islam, and the norms and requirements of that religion, destroy the theory shared by some bishops that the Church needs to adapt her externals to Western norms to make it more attractive.

(E.g., cassocks and beards scare people, services are too long, standard prayer rules are too stringent, fasting is too difficult, churches are only recognizable if they have pews and organs, etc.)

People are converting to a harsh ascetic religion like Islam in droves, and they got all their ascetic ideas from us! So why water down Orthodoxy when many Westerners are finding they desire asceticism in their lives?

Clearly the message to Orthodoxy is: become more visible and don't betray the ascetic nature of our faith to attract people.
This question isn't necessarily for you, bogdan. Is the growth in Islam due primarily to birthrate, immigration, or conversion? Yes, I know all three are factors, but where is the biggest growth seen?

Whatever the answer, it doesn't negate bogdan's position that we Orthodox can compete with Islamic asceticism. He's quite right.

I think that's a good question. I definitely think it's a combination of all three, but most sobering is conversion. I have heard from Orthodox prison ministry people that conversion to Islam is especially prevalent in prisons. Combining violent-natured people with a violent religion is not a good thing at all, IMO.
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2011, 02:33:53 PM »

Quote
No.

Ah, laconic responses are so refreshing Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2011, 02:37:10 PM »

And if anyone thinks that Islam is benign or even a potential ally, I'd suggest watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w and then reading the stuff for yourself.

They might accept our help for the time being. And then when secularism is gone, then they'll turn on us too. Islam is a violently expansionist religion, and views expansion at all costs as the goal, with the end being a worldwide Islamic state. As with many things in Islam, it is a material, fleshly, evil and twisted vision of our Lord's final victory and eternal reign.
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2011, 02:38:23 PM »

All of the Churches I attend tend to have a rather large number of old folks and a number of young children.  Not too many people in the late teens and early 20's-30's.

You'll be happy to know the parish I attend has demographics which reflect the general age distribution of American society at large perhaps with more of a bump at the youngest end of the spectrum, since most of the Orthodox in the parish have more children than the average American.

However, when it comes to stewardship, pretty much all of it comes from the coffers from 55+ age bracket. An alarming trend.

Also, there has been a rather large influx of inquirers over the last 18 months or so according to my Priest. Only of two of us are catechumens, but more than a three or four of the inquirers seem rather serious and two already have children.

All the inquirers and catechumens are 37 years of age or less.

FWIW.
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2011, 02:46:43 PM »

Although we've been over this before, I think it bears repeating. Bogdan is right. Islam is not a nice peaceful religion. Just look at the celebrations in the streets after 9/11.
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 02:55:52 PM »

Although we've been over this before, I think it bears repeating. Bogdan is right. Islam is not a nice peaceful religion. Just look at the celebrations in the streets after 9/11.

Religions don't celebrate, people do.
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 02:58:52 PM »

All of the Churches I attend tend to have a rather large number of old folks and a number of young children.  Not too many people in the late teens and early 20's-30's.

You'll be happy to know the parish I attend has demographics which reflect the general age distribution of American society at large perhaps with more of a bump at the youngest end of the spectrum, since most of the Orthodox in the parish have more children than the average American.

However, when it comes to stewardship, pretty much all of it comes from the coffers from 55+ age bracket. An alarming trend.

Also, there has been a rather large influx of inquirers over the last 18 months or so according to my Priest. Only of two of us are catechumens, but more than a three or four of the inquirers seem rather serious and two already have children.

All the inquirers and catechumens are 37 years of age or less.

FWIW.

Similar situation at my rather small parish. In the last year we've chrismated 7 or 8 converts, all between 15 and 30 years old except for one middle-aged woman. And we have probably 10 regular inquirers at various levels of seriousness and in the same age group. God be praised.
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 03:31:36 PM »

Quote
Religions don't celebrate, people do.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2011, 03:34:06 PM »

Quote
Religions don't celebrate, people do.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12


Words don't dismember people, people do.


(The NRA has given us Americans this pithy way of dismissing pretty much any complicated sociological situation. It's was a bit of a joke with a bit of truth.)
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2011, 03:36:27 PM »

All of the Churches I attend tend to have a rather large number of old folks and a number of young children.  Not too many people in the late teens and early 20's-30's.

You'll be happy to know the parish I attend has demographics which reflect the general age distribution of American society at large perhaps with more of a bump at the youngest end of the spectrum, since most of the Orthodox in the parish have more children than the average American.

However, when it comes to stewardship, pretty much all of it comes from the coffers from 55+ age bracket. An alarming trend.

Also, there has been a rather large influx of inquirers over the last 18 months or so according to my Priest. Only of two of us are catechumens, but more than a three or four of the inquirers seem rather serious and two already have children.

All the inquirers and catechumens are 37 years of age or less.

FWIW.

Perhaps my numbers are a bit off, but I still think it's a bit skewed to the older end of the spectrum.  Closing my eyes and thinking of who are there on usual Sundays - Young Child: 12, Teenager: 1 (she may be younger, never asked her age), 18-35: 7, 35-55: 7, 55+: 8.  These numbers are all approximate and note that I am in the 18-35 range so these are people that stick in my mind a bit better.  I can almost guarantee my numbers for 35 and higher are off, these are just the people I can think of.  My young child number is probably the most accurate since they come pretty much every week.  The 18-35 range people, you are luck if there are generally significantly less, I just used these stats because these people stick in my head.
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2011, 03:39:16 PM »

Quote
Religions don't celebrate, people do.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12


Words don't dismember people, people do.


(The NRA has given us Americans this pithy way of dismissing pretty much any complicated sociological situation. It's was a bit of a joke with a bit of truth.)

Inanimate objects don't kill people and neither do ideas, granted.  But I do think we can generally say that people who have certain ideas are more likely to kill than people with different philosophies?  Would you agree?
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2011, 03:44:32 PM »

Quote
Inanimate objects don't kill people and neither do ideas, granted.  But I do think we can generally say that people who have certain ideas are more likely to kill than people with different philosophies?  Would you agree?

Which was my point.
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Words don't dismember people, people do.

Especially people inspired by words.

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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2011, 03:52:27 PM »

Quote
Religions don't celebrate, people do.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12


Words don't dismember people, people do.


(The NRA has given us Americans this pithy way of dismissing pretty much any complicated sociological situation. It's was a bit of a joke with a bit of truth.)

Inanimate objects don't kill people and neither do ideas, granted.  But I do think we can generally say that people who have certain ideas are more likely to kill than people with different philosophies?  Would you agree?

Maybe, maybe not. But my point and wording again was meant in partial jest and truth.

I mean we just have to look at European history to see what "Christians" do. I don't have any elitist ideas about education making "people" better. The intellectuals in Germany were some of the first to really get on board with National Socialism with many conducting book burning with zeal. Nor do I have any elitist ideas about "religion" making people "better". But I do have hope in the Gospel.

I think the neo-cons are right, if you want to talk about "de-radicalizing" Islam. Let them have a go at the American dream. It pretty much ended Christianity in any real sense. It will do the same to Islam.

But as a Christian, I think you* have to ask yourself, why are you concerned that the tide of history may turn and make life more painful and difficult for you. Ain't that pretty much what we are promised?

The primary question from a strictly Christian perspective, IMHO, would not be how do we decrease possible suffering (not a bad question to ask nor one to avoid), but how do we use it to glorify God.

*The impersonal you.

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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2011, 03:57:01 PM »

Quote
I think the neo-cons are right, if you want to talk about "de-radicalizing" Islam. Let them have a go at the American dream. It pretty much ended Christianity in any real sense. It will do the same to Islam.

Your thought on that is pretty well thought out, but could you clarify the above statement? The way Im taking it is that the American dream stopped Christians from being violent. Not quite understanding that one.

I appreciate it Smiley

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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2011, 04:02:08 PM »

greetings in that divine and most precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

morality (as someone already said) or they will end up against each other with the Christians wondering why they didn't fight more to keep their country as Christian with a capital C.


True indeed, then than again but we as Christians living in modern, secular, Western nations need to come to grips with reality that we don't live in capital "C" Christian countries, Lord Have His Mercy, we hardly even live in christian with a lower-case "c" countries Wink

We can't then force our beliefs on other peoples, as this fundamentally is NOT Christianity.  God allows all of us humans equally free-will to make our own decisions, and just as God Himself recognizes and respects our own individual, human, free-will, we as Christians mutually need to do the same in regards to peoples of other religious persuasions.  Besides, its like your grandmama told y'all, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar."
Quote
Religions don't celebrate, people do.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12


Quote
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy Godcommanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Deuteronomy 15
Its all about perspective.

Again, I don't like the tendency on this Forum to automatically associate Islam with radicalism, militancy, violence, and fundamentalism.  Christian nut-jobs in the US have killed more Americans than the Jihadists ever have, and on American soil at that! Radicalism is the problem, militancy is the problem, not religion.  Islam is NOT a violent religion, but the VIOLENCE WHICH HAS HIJACKED ISLAM has taken over the mainstream and the newspapers creating a false sense of what Islam is and isn't.  Yes, a lot of the violence today in the world is committed by radicalists and jihadists, but this is not Islam, this radicalism and there is clearly a difference.  

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When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:


Quote
And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.
Deuteronomy 7
If we attempt to cut and paste the Koran to defend our own misconceptions of what Islam teaches, then we are no different than those radicalists or atheists who say the Bible is evil for having the exact same, verbatim kinds of references to killing and violence.  We as Christians know better about our own Bible, and we should trust that those Islamic militants and radicals are not representing Islam, they are representing radicalism, just as Christians who support literal Old Testament ideas including killing your opposition, are blatantly in the wrong. Was the Inquisition right? What about the Crusades? What about the American Civil War when folks believed God was on their side to kill their neighbor in War? Christian history can be as confusing about violence as Islamic, we're just outsiders to Islam so all we here is the hearsay and the gossip.

Also we're playing into the radicalists hands on this, THEY want us to believe that Islam is violent, because when we attack them out of our fears, it makes them feel all the more vindicated in continuing to attack us, plus it is an invaluable recruiting tool Sad

Islam is no more violent a religion than Christianity or Judaism, but just as in our own histories, Islam has been hijacked by a violent minority who happen to catch all the press and media attention. Look at how Protestantism continues to demonize Catholicism over historical and also tragic misunderstandings.  What we are doing today with Islam is really no different..

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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2011, 04:07:49 PM »

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I think the neo-cons are right, if you want to talk about "de-radicalizing" Islam. Let them have a go at the American dream. It pretty much ended Christianity in any real sense. It will do the same to Islam.

Your thought on that is pretty well thought out, but could you clarify the above statement? The way Im taking it is that the American dream stopped Christians from being violent. Not quite understanding that one.

I appreciate it Smiley

primuspilus

No, I am saying that the pursuit of the American Dream is rather antithetical to Christianity as it seems to be understood in the Gospel and in the OC. We can debate what the "American Dream" is and what "Christianity" is.

But I think most on this board and as evidenced by this thread believe that American society has drifted (I don't think it was ever close) from Christian values. I truly believe that the singular search for "happiness" via liberty, property, and health are anti-Christian and anti-Islamic.

If the spiritual materialism of America neutered the Gospel, it can handle the Koran.
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2011, 04:40:43 PM »

Gotcha. I can agree with it in the sense that freedom in the American sense is far different than the freedom in Christ. I do agree that it is a little bit common to see that if you dont agree with listed "American" concepts like American Exceptionalism, democracy, red, white, and blue, etc etc etc, your "Christianity" is called into question...at least here in the South thats the case.

yeah, I can follow what you're saying there.

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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2011, 05:43:54 PM »

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Islam is no more violent a religion than Christianity or Judaism, but just as in our own histories, Islam has been hijacked by a violent minority who happen to catch all the press and media attention. Look at how Protestantism continues to demonize Catholicism over historical and also tragic misunderstandings.  What we are doing today with Islam is really no different..

In Britain some journalists have left their jobs because they don't like the way that negative stories are made up and printed about Islam in the (mostly unregulated) tabloid press.
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2011, 05:53:04 PM »

Anyone who thinks Islam will take over the United States or Canada is delusional. Including -- and especially -- so-called Islamists.
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2011, 07:17:05 PM »

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Religions don't celebrate, people do.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12


Perhaps we shouldn't take that out of context.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/a_new_quran/
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2011, 07:49:53 PM »

I just have a few comments.  Firstly, I seriously doubt that anyone can accurately predict the growth or reduction of a religion over 20 years into the future.  A whole host of things can happen.  An incredibly well liked Imam who is a powerful speaker could rise up and bring 10 million Canadians to Islam over the next 20 years.  Alternately, an Orthodox Priest could rise up, and bring 12 million Canadians to Orthodoxy over the next 20 years.  Or, several Islamic terrorist attacks could take place in Canada, and lead a massive number of people to stay away from Islam.  There are so many factors when it comes to religious growth, that I do not think you can accurately predict what will happen to the numbers of a religion, for more than perhaps a few years into the future.

Secondly, I am by no means a fan of Islam.  I have many problems with it.  I also have many problems with Muhammad.  However, Islam - like all man made religions (e.g. Buddhism, Roman Catholicism, Calvanism, etc.) - is interpreted by the people who live it.  Now, Muhammad may have (and I believe likely did) preached a fairly (in comparison with true Christianity, A.K.A. Orthodoxy) violent religion that doesn't care too terribly much for Christians and Jews (and God save those pagans).  This view may have been practiced (and I believe likely was) by his closest followers and successors.  However, simply because at one time this is what Islam meant, does not mean that is what Islam must mean today and in the future.  I know many Muslims who genuinely do not believe that there is a right to hit your wife, and who own dogs.  In fact, there are many Muslims who take an approach to the punishments specified for various crimes, by the Qur'an, that is much like what Jews say about the Old Testament punishments.  That is, they claim that this is a way to show the seriousness of the offense and/or that Allah will punish the person in a similar manner in the next life (or in some cases, in this life) but that Muslims have no right to do the punishing.  Is this a historically accurate Islam (dating back to the interpretations of Muhammad and his followers), quite possibly no.  However, there have been Muslims with similar view throughout history, though a minority, and in this countyr they are probably a decent majority.  If that is the type of Islam that is growin, I don't have some fear of it.

To anser the thread title, I am in no way disturbed by the growth of Islam in my city, mainly because I live in a small mining town and have met no one here who would seem to be a Muslim (even if I was profiling based on where I believed they were born or their ancestors were born).  I also haven't really seen many people I thought might be Muslim (and have never noticied a mosque) in the next closest real city (Prescott).  I assume there are at least some Muslims there, and there may be one or two mosques, I've just not yet found them.
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2011, 08:51:52 PM »

Absolutely.  I have the Shariah board at the end of my street, women in my neighborhood who wear full burqahs and I live a mere few blocks away from the terrorist who planned the Mumbai massacre. Yes, I am very disturbed.

And please don't patronize me with any political correctness. I have several Muslim friends and co-workers, and they're concerned, too.
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2011, 09:37:20 PM »

Political correctness?

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2011, 09:44:47 PM »

Anyone who thinks Islam will take over the United States or Canada is delusional. Including -- and especially -- so-called Islamists.
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2011, 09:53:21 PM »

Again, I don't like the tendency on this Forum to automatically associate Islam with radicalism, militancy, violence, and fundamentalism.  Christian nut-jobs in the US have killed more Americans than the Jihadists ever have, and on American soil at that! Radicalism is the problem, militancy is the problem, not religion.  Islam is NOT a violent religion, but the VIOLENCE WHICH HAS HIJACKED ISLAM has taken over the mainstream and the newspapers creating a false sense of what Islam is and isn't.  Yes, a lot of the violence today in the world is committed by radicalists and jihadists, but this is not Islam, this radicalism and there is clearly a difference. 

Violence has not hijacked Islam. Islam has always been violent, and segments of the religion are finally growing out of it. I think if we need proof, just look at what Mohammad and his "apostles" did, compared to what Christ and His Apostles did.

People are always quick to say "Crusades!", but compare the Crusades to the Apostles. The Crusades, in that they were over-the-top and violent, are abominable to Christianity. But the violent Jihad of Islam is following in their Prophet's footsteps.

The hijackers of Islam are the "Islamic Protestants" who allegorize the Koran. I think that's a good thing, but we shouldn't pretend that they are in touch with Mohammad's intentions or actions.

The Koran was dictated by a demon appearing as an angel of light ("Gabriel"). Mohammad's apostles launched a reign of terror that has as a goal the overtaking of the world and submitting the world to Islamic law. That has been its goal since Mohammad. I don't understand how people can deny this.

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

We must. But we need not deny reality at the same time.
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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2011, 10:03:25 PM »

I see Islam as a Christian heresy like some Church Fathers. Demonic or not, what are you going to do?

It seems the Gospel is pretty clear on these matters.

And FWIW, to put it very politically incorrectly, when Muslim immigrants displace the urban Black populace around me, crime goes down and things are generally "better", if you want a secular, pragmatic single data point.

Their children are: Yes sir. No sir. The men are always polite and law abiding. The mothers stay home with the children and give them plenty of attention and discipline.

I lived with three Muslims once. One was a Muslim teacher. Probably never had more congenial and thoughtful and polite housemates, ever.

I am not dismissing your analysis of the origins of Islam or its possible influence in the world today, I am just stating what I've seen and experienced.

If loving them is not the answer while remaining truthful (mainly to ourselves), then what would you say is?

I think Of Gods and Men treated this problem wonderfully.
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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2011, 10:40:08 PM »

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2011, 10:44:07 PM »

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

What this board about again?
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2011, 10:58:35 PM »

I was looking at some religion statistics for Canada and noticed that Islam is due to increase from 2.7% of the population to almost 7% by 2031. This is a whopping 224.7% change, the highest of any religion!
This means almost 3 million Muslims in a total population of 42 million.

Orthodoxy will only grow from 1.7% to 2.3% or a 72.8% change.

No doubt a similar situation is occuring in Australia, Europe (France, Germany, Netherlands, UK in particular) and the USA. Rapid growth of Muslims.

Frankly i find these statistics very disturbing almost frightening. I consider a sizable section of the Islamic community in my country to be intolerant, bigoted and have a hatred of everything western. Even on tonight's news there is a story about an Islamic imam living here that preaches hate.

From personal experience, if found that in areas where Muslims have congregated crime rates have gone up, areas have deterioted in terms of cleanliness and general upkeep of buildings and real estate values have declined. A lot of them have also formed criminal gangs and networks and i'm talking about the native born ones. Going to the local shops you see hijabs and burqas everywhere even on little girls. New mosques and Islamic schools are opening up everywhere.

Is this happening in your city? Even if not, how would you feel if one day you woke up and had a mosque or Islamic school under construction near your residence? Or that 1 in 10 of your countrymen will be Muslim in a few years?

And what could you possibly do to stop this trend, if you so wished?


Go to www pop.org the Population Research Institute. We need to change the false impression that the World is over populated and that resources are running out. Then have five or six kids or suggest to your kids that when they start a family, it should be a large one.   
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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2011, 11:09:48 PM »

I'm a 20 minute walk from a Mosque. The biggest problem it has created are threats of violence against it and the Muslims who worship there and it is in the liberal enclave of my neck of the woods of University Professors and liberal professionals.

The City has to provide a police presence on Fridays for their worship. It is saddening.

Oh yeah, those liberals I mentioned, tried as hard as they could from keeping it out of their neighborhood. But they love the Unity Church where, I am not kidding, kids around the age of 10 made "art" from condoms during summer school.

Again, where I live, Muslims clean things up, but I do live in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in America.

YMMV.
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2011, 12:35:22 AM »

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Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
  Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2011, 12:52:17 AM »

To stop it?  evangelize.  And not "send me your money for miracle spring water" evangelize, St. Tikhon of Moscow evangelize.  We need to let them "receive the light" just as we do on Pascha.

It does scare me a bit.  Mostly the fact that the media tells us that Islam is a religion of peace and that those who oppose them are the bigots, when we know the truth from personal experience.  I had a fellow student in the 7th grade from Turkey (a Muslim).  When he learned that my great grandma was Jewish, he wouldn't talk to me or sit my be.  And I'm a biggot....please!
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« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2011, 12:59:22 AM »

I was looking at some religion statistics for Canada and noticed that Islam is due to increase from 2.7% of the population to almost 7% by 2031. This is a whopping 224.7% change, the highest of any religion!
This means almost 3 million Muslims in a total population of 42 million.

Orthodoxy will only grow from 1.7% to 2.3% or a 72.8% change.

No doubt a similar situation is occuring in Australia, Europe (France, Germany, Netherlands, UK in particular) and the USA. Rapid growth of Muslims.

Frankly i find these statistics very disturbing almost frightening. I consider a sizable section of the Islamic community in my country to be intolerant, bigoted and have a hatred of everything western. Even on tonight's news there is a story about an Islamic imam living here that preaches hate.

From personal experience, if found that in areas where Muslims have congregated crime rates have gone up, areas have deterioted in terms of cleanliness and general upkeep of buildings and real estate values have declined. A lot of them have also formed criminal gangs and networks and i'm talking about the native born ones. Going to the local shops you see hijabs and burqas everywhere even on little girls. New mosques and Islamic schools are opening up everywhere.

Is this happening in your city? Even if not, how would you feel if one day you woke up and had a mosque or Islamic school under construction near your residence? Or that 1 in 10 of your countrymen will be Muslim in a few years?

And what could you possibly do to stop this trend, if you so wished?


Last time I checked, the Eastern Orthodox countries of Russian, Romania and Bulgaria had some of the highest rates of abortions in the world today.  I don't see where it makes too much sense for Orthodox Christians to go around beating their breasts about the sky high rate of Muslim births, while saying little about the high abortion rates that we are seeing among many Christian groups.
I have seen Muslims who are quite serious about their religion and pray  several times every day at regular intervals. Also, I notice that many of their women folk dress quite modestly, in comparison with the sexy dress of many of the Christian women, even at Church.  Muslim women are wearing headcovering at all times to show their modesty, and I noticed that at the local Catholic and Orthodox Churches, women do not wear any headcovering, even in Church during the Church services, which of course is contrary to what is commanded in the New Testament by St. Paul.
Which religion then has their followers  in accord with  teaching on this point of accepting children as a blessing to the family and encouraging modest clothing for women, especially at religious services?  
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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2011, 02:49:42 AM »

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls. 

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.

I stress that these were primarily Middle Eastern - Lebanese Muslims or refugees with limited education.

I've met educated Muslims from West Africa and South East Asia and they are quite different in mentality. One couple, who are devout even attended a friends Christening at church and drink wine! However these are the few exceptions.

They even have plans to form a political party.

Like Bogdan said - i view Islam as a threat to both Christianity and secularism. Whether we like it or not world domination is their goal.

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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2011, 03:18:14 AM »

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.
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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2011, 10:29:53 AM »

Quote
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
  Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
I was just kidding. I actually think that those proposals are very, very ridiculous. The nature of our democracy virtually cancels out an possibility of Sharia law actually becoming the rule of law. Not as long as the Supreme Court exists!

Should we then institute anti-anarchy, anti-communist, anti-whatever legislation, then? It's just a symbolic stand. We should let our governance speak for itself.
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« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2011, 02:18:43 PM »

I'm no real fan of western culture either. "Freedom" is freedom from God, and the belief that Orthodoxy can be wrong, so that everyone should get a choice for what THEY think is right. It leads to relative morality, and invenitably leads to the downfall of religion like we see in all western countries. Not to mention the church fathers supported monarchy.
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« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2011, 02:38:58 PM »

I see Islam as a Christian heresy like some Church Fathers. Demonic or not, what are you going to do?

It seems the Gospel is pretty clear on these matters.

And FWIW, to put it very politically incorrectly, when Muslim immigrants displace the urban Black populace around me, crime goes down and things are generally "better", if you want a secular, pragmatic single data point.

Their children are: Yes sir. No sir. The men are always polite and law abiding. The mothers stay home with the children and give them plenty of attention and discipline.

I lived with three Muslims once. One was a Muslim teacher. Probably never had more congenial and thoughtful and polite housemates, ever.

I am not dismissing your analysis of the origins of Islam or its possible influence in the world today, I am just stating what I've seen and experienced.

If loving them is not the answer while remaining truthful (mainly to ourselves), then what would you say is?

I think Of Gods and Men treated this problem wonderfully.


I have no doubt that many Muslims, especially in the West, are very upstanding people. I had a classmate in college who was part of a black nationalist branch of Islam, and he was always an upstanding and respectable guy. Anyone who thinks that Muslims are all wild-eyed, bloodthirsty beasts are crazy.

That said, I think it's more insidious than that. I personally side with Fr Alexander Schmemmann in "For the Life of the World", that a definition of secularism is attempting to fix the world's ills apart from Christ. So when we stand with Muslims to effect a more moral society, we are in fact committing secularism. There is no value in changing the world if Christ isn't at the center of it. Any value is only fleshly and worldly.

I think Islam (and any religion) can negatively impact Christianity in various ways. One way is by killing and destruction. Another way is by making us join hands to create a better world under the banner of generic humanism.

I do believe that pure Islam is the violent form. But even joining with peaceful Muslims is mere secularism. It goes without saying that it does not, however, give license to threaten Muslims or do anything but pray for them.
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« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2011, 02:56:45 PM »

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Quote
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
 Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
I was just kidding. I actually think that those proposals are very, very ridiculous. The nature of our democracy virtually cancels out an possibility of Sharia law actually becoming the rule of law. Not as long as the Supreme Court exists!
False hope. It has already happened.
Quote
Sharia in New Jersey: Muslim husband rapes wife, judge sees no sexual assault because Islam forbids wives to refuse sex
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/sharia-islamic-law-in-new-jersey-court-muslim-husband-rapes-beats-sexually-abuses-wife-judge-sees-no.html
btw, it wasn't bare refusal: he was abusing her during intercourse.

The decision was later overturned on a appeal, but do you have any idea how many bad decisions are not appealed, given the expense and grief invovled? Btw, IIRC, the wife was underage according to US law, but not the shariah, and came in on a wife visa.
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2011, 03:16:28 PM »

How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls.  

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.



That sounds like a picnic compared to where I live. The bolded part of your reply you can pretty much apply to many groups of unsupervised male youth, whether in combat, in the urban ghettos, college frat houses, etc.

Sounds terrible, but Islam ain't cornered the market on male idiocy.
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2011, 03:22:36 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls.  

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.



That sounds like a picnic compared to where I live. The bolded part of your reply you can pretty much apply to many groups of unsupervised male youth, whether in combat, in the urban ghettos, college frat houses, etc.

Sounds terrible, but Islam ain't cornered the market on male idiocy.
But it has put in a bid for cornering the market on legitimizing it.  (btw, the domestic courts do that for female idiocy).
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 03:29:56 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
How about political incorrectness: Love your enemy.

As I said, I'm living in a neighborhood that has a lot of radicals. You can love them for me.

Like you i used to live in an area overrun by Middle Eastern Muslims, Somalis, Sudanese etc. The local sheikh would often make inflammatory comments like "a woman deserves to be raped for wearing a mini-skirt".

Groups of youth with nothing better to do, would hang around, intimidate people and look for trouble. The younger children lacked respect and acted very macho. Once they hit their teens they were out of control. One group gang raped numerous local girls.  

The woman next door to me was basically enslaved and was not allowed to answer the door or get the mail. She often paced in her back yard.



That sounds like a picnic compared to where I live. The bolded part of your reply you can pretty much apply to many groups of unsupervised male youth, whether in combat, in the urban ghettos, college frat houses, etc.

Sounds terrible, but Islam ain't cornered the market on male idiocy.
But it has put in a bid for cornering the market on legitimizing it.  (btw, the domestic courts do that for female idiocy).

Point taken.
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2011, 08:03:54 PM »

Quote
Still, we need to institute anti-Sharia laws!  police
  Would we be able to do so without the Supreme Court striking them down using the 1st Amendment?
I was just kidding. I actually think that those proposals are very, very ridiculous. The nature of our democracy virtually cancels out an possibility of Sharia law actually becoming the rule of law. Not as long as the Supreme Court exists!

Should we then institute anti-anarchy, anti-communist, anti-whatever legislation, then? It's just a symbolic stand. We should let our governance speak for itself.

Too late:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAur_I077NA
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2011, 08:13:30 PM »

McCarthyism didn't result in actual legislation against Communism, as far as I know.

(Unless you count the House Committee on Un-American Activities as legislation? Still unfortunate all around.)
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2011, 09:30:28 PM »

McCarthyism didn't result in actual legislation against Communism, as far as I know.

(Unless you count the House Committee on Un-American Activities as legislation? Still unfortunate all around.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Efforts to protect the United States from the perceived threat of Communist subversion were particularly enabled by several federal laws. The Alien Registration Act or Smith Act of 1940 made it a criminal offense for anyone to "knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the [...] desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association". Hundreds of Communists and others were prosecuted under this law between 1941 and 1957. Eleven leaders of the Communist Party were charged and convicted under the Smith Act in 1949. Ten defendants were given sentences of five years and the eleventh was sentenced to three years. All of the defense attorneys were cited for contempt of court and were also given prison sentences.[30] In 1951, twenty-three other leaders of the party were indicted, including Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, a founding member of the American Civil Liberties Union; many were convicted on the basis of testimony that was later admitted to be false.[31] By 1957, 140 leaders and members of the Communist Party had been charged under the law, with 93 being convicted.[32]

The McCarran Internal Security Act, which became law in 1950, has been described by scholar Ellen Schrecker as "the McCarthy era's only important piece of legislation"[33] (the Smith Act technically predated McCarthyism). However, the McCarran Act had no real effect beyond legal harassment. It required the registration of Communist organizations with the U.S. Attorney General and established the Subversive Activities Control Board to investigate possible Communist-action and Communist-front organizations so they could be required to register. Due to numerous hearings, delays and appeals, the act was never enforced, even with regard to the Communist Party of the United States itself, and the major provisions of the act were found to be unconstitutional in 1965 and 1967.[34] In 1952, the Immigration and Nationality, or McCarran-Walter, Act was passed. This law allowed the government to deport immigrants or naturalized citizens engaged in subversive activities and also to bar suspected subversives from entering the country.

The Communist Control Act of 1954 was passed with overwhelming support in both houses of Congress after very little debate. Jointly drafted by Republican John Marshall Butler and Democrat Hubert Humphrey, the law was an extension of the Internal Security Act of 1950, and sought to outlaw the Communist Party by declaring that the party, as well as "Communist-Infiltrated Organizations" were "not entitled to any of the rights, privileges, and immunities attendant upon legal bodies". The Communist Control Act never had any significant effect, and was perhaps most notable for the odd mix of liberals and conservatives among its supporters. It was successfully applied only twice: in 1954 it was used to prevent Communist Party members from appearing on the New Jersey state ballot, and in 1960 it was cited to deny the CPUSA recognition as an employer under New York State's unemployment compensation system. The New York Post called the act "a monstrosity", "a wretched repudiation of democratic principles," while The Nation accused Democratic liberals of a "neurotic, election-year anxiety to escape the charge of being 'soft on Communism' even at the expense of sacrificing constitutional rights."

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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2011, 09:34:48 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2011, 09:38:58 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.

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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2011, 09:42:26 PM »

The Spirit is desceded!
McCarthyism didn't result in actual legislation against Communism, as far as I know.

(Unless you count the House Committee on Un-American Activities as legislation? Still unfortunate all around.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Efforts to protect the United States from the perceived threat of Communist subversion
Marc, the Soviet archives have been opened.  The McCarthyites perceived correctly.  The Rosenbergs were guilty.
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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2011, 09:47:31 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.
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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2011, 09:57:33 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.



The CPUSA cheered on the use of the Smith Act against their competition on the Left especially when it was used to Jail Trotskyists during World War two. Then it was used on them. 
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2011, 12:25:44 AM »

The growth doesn't really disturb me, because honestly I'm not a big fan of all of the hedonism and materialism characteristic of our cultures right now. I am a fan of the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas, but I'm not opposed to a segment of the population increasing which shares my disdain for most of what passes for Western "culture" these days. They'd be a welcome ally for a more moral society.
Tell me this doesn't disturb you as much as secular hedonistic materialism: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhiMSvz6iH8

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI8PP0JnsW0

Or this:
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

Or this:
free download:  Serge Trifkovich, Sword of the Prophet: History, Theology, Impact on the World (Regina: Orthodox Press, 2002).
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2011, 01:29:14 AM »

Tell me this doesn't disturb you as much as secular hedonistic materialism:

That's weird, I've never heard of any of that stuff before.
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2011, 03:01:17 AM »

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2011, 03:15:44 AM »

Yes.  One of the few people on this forum who was a practicing Muslim for almost ten years, I can tell you that there is a deep desire for revenge against a deep-seated hatred for all things perceived as being "Crusader".  I reckon all those who said "no" will probably sing a different tune when they're paying their dhimmi taxes. 
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2011, 03:34:03 AM »

What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick! I am seriously thinking of leaving the Church and turning my heart/mind into my personal parish.  Cry
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2011, 05:26:02 AM »

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 

The argument against them is that Islam is alien to the Polish Catholic nation. The Eastern Orthodox Christianity is alien to so I think If I don't want to wake up one day and realise that they are anti-Orthodox pogroms it's better not to support such close-minded views.
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2011, 07:43:37 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick! I am seriously thinking of leaving the Church and turning my heart/mind into my personal parish.  Cry
God forbid! What would that do?  Protestants erect their own parish, or rather papacy, and many of them are actually confessing shahadah "as solidarity." Such things happen when you throw out the anchor because some fool has taken hold temporarily of the helm.
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2011, 09:40:32 AM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2011, 10:16:41 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 

The argument against them is that Islam is alien to the Polish Catholic nation. The Eastern Orthodox Christianity is alien to so I think If I don't want to wake up one day and realise that they are anti-Orthodox pogroms it's better not to support such close-minded views.
build a synagogue then.  They are less dangerous (at least in Poland), and since Jews have been in Poland before it was a Kingdom, and Poland (and I'm presuming Lithuania and Belorussia) alone among Europe never expelled its Jews (at one point 3/4 of all world Jewry lived in the PL Commonwealth), can't claim it's "alien to the Polish Catholic nation."
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2011, 10:17:00 AM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.

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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2011, 10:33:46 AM »

I will say that much of this growth (in America) is from aimless immigration policies to fulfill the vision of a fool's paradise by dreamers who wash their hands of possible future culural conflicts. Nonetheless, those of us who are less exalted & still much aware of our sins must realize that as Christians we must strive to conduct ourselves as such in conformity to our Lord's commands unto death (will I pass this test? I don't know.). I take note of passages in Deuteronomy 15:7-11, 24:10-22; Leviticus 19:9-10,23:22; Sirach 11:27-32 & all of chptr 12; & ponder thse alongside our Lord's commands especially in Matthew 5 & 7:1-12.
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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2011, 11:27:08 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.
Why? Aren't they entitled to one? The Amerindians, Aleuts etc. have no other, as neither do the Cajun, Amish (and in some sense) Mormons, and (though many will deny it) the blacks.
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2011, 11:33:30 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.
Why? Aren't they entitled to one? The Amerindians, Aleuts etc. have no other, as neither do the Cajun, Amish (and in some sense) Mormons, and (though many will deny it) the blacks.

Am I to believe you are truly missing my point?
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« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2011, 11:35:25 AM »

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When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.

America is my homeland. The reason is simple. I was born here, as my father before me, and his father before him, and his father before him. No different than Amerindians, which I hate to say it, they're not "native" either. They were just here longer. They came over the land bridge. Everyone's people migrated from somewhere else.

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« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2011, 01:16:47 PM »

I'll get back to the homeland point later. Obviously you all need to be schooled. Frankly, I think ialmisry is going all Socratic on me.
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« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2011, 02:36:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one? 

That shouldn't surprise you, we Orthodox should not relish in cultural chauvinism.  In Ethiopia 10 times as many mosques are being built in Addis Ababa and surrounding suburbs then are Orthodox Churches, this does make me nervous, but not because there are new mosques, rather because of the lack of new churches, which realistically has NOTHING to do with Islam, but is an internal, Christian problem.

I am an American, we live and embrace plurality, because this is common decency.  We are not perfect, but at least our ideal is to aim for mutual respect and tolerance (even if through American bombs, war, and racism we fall quite short quite often Sad )


We only stoke more fires when we are racist, prejudiced, or discriminating.  Further, what about what Apostle Paul told Timothy, "I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels, that you should guard these things apart from prejudice, doing nothing from bias." Timothy 5:22

Two wrongs never make a right, and as cliched as it is, the Good Dr King was correct when he gave his life telling us, "eye for an eye leaves us all blinded."

What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick!

What political games? Jesus Christ asked us to love and pray for our enemies, and to pray for those who curse and abuse us spitefully!! How much more than should we be striving for sincere peace and tolerance? How is that a game exactly? What would you prefer, we just genocide all the Muslims off the earth? Peace and tolerance are neither fake nor games, but folks with such negative sentiments as you've posted here only make things worse.  Many of us ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS across the world are for genuine PEACE AND TOLERANCE, you should be more careful not to disrespect us then when expressing your short-sited, self-interested opinions..


The radicalists are blowing things up and terrorizing people precisely because they WANT us to react with fear, prejudice, and yes, violence.  We should be CHRISTIANS, and react with LOVE, CONSOLATION, and PEACE from Jesus Christ in our hearts.  I am so deeply concerned at the amount ornery animosity and even hatred expressed towards Muslims on this forum, many of y'all (who shall remain nameless) should be ridiculously ashamed of yourself Sad

Stay blessed,
Habte Selassie

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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2011, 02:57:09 PM »

The first two were not laws explicitly banning Communism. The last one was, though. Huh, never heard of that one.

Regardless, that era is a blemish on our nation's history and caused damage to many folks' lives for their suspected political beliefs. At least the Commies got more civil treatment than the anarchists.


I agree. I probably would not have agreed during the paranoia-fueled McCarthy era, but it's a sad thing to look on now.

Even though there were people clearly guilty of subversive activities, there were people who were simply sympathetic leftists who were put under scrutiny due to the paranoia. I am no Communist-sympathizer, but that was a witch hunt, pure and simple. And it rendered having certain political thoughts Un-American.

There are snakes and there are snakes. The difference is that some will kill you and some will not. I would agree with you if the legislation was against all snakes. As it was, the legislation was against the poisonous snakes. I am a huge advocate of the First Amendment but I understand it as protecting free speech. It is not a vehicle for America haters to use to destroy America. Let me give you another example. We have bacteria all over and in us. Some are beneficial but some are harmful. It really is suicidal to interpret the First Amendment in such a radical fashion that we allow the enemy within to operate without any fetters.

Second Chance,

With all due respect and I truly don't play this card lightly nor easily, but those analogies you are making are quite reminiscent of analogies made in another time and place where humans became utterly disposable.

When Americans began using the word homeland frequently I began to get a bit jittery.



You are entirely correct that the principle has been misused. I also get jittery when I read what I wrote or hear similar arguments/terminology. I guess the political philosophy of the speaker/writer and his principles must be taken into account. Similarly, whenever I hear somebody talk about peace and democracy, I do not automatically assume that he meant what he said. The late and very much unlamented Communist dictatorships, for example, often turned those words on their head.

Regarding Americans using the word "homeland," I do not think that there is anything wrong with it per se. It is unfortunate that that word was misused in the past by folks like Hitler and Stalin, making it suspect when one uses it today. Again, I think that the background and intent of the reader must be taken into account. I guess in some circles, the word "sin" is also regarded with suspicion and aversion. Nothing wrong with it of course but some folks see a connotation of unthinking cruelty and narrow mindedness.
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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2011, 03:07:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Frankly I'm upset no mosques are built in the cities I live. In Białystok there is one half-built but the construction process stopped and in Warsaw there is some opposition from the certain politicians.

 That's the damndest thing I've ever heard; an Orthodox Christian upset that there are no mosques in his city.  Why not visit the Phanar district in Istanbul and see if you can get some donations to build one?  

That shouldn't surprise you, we Orthodox should not relish in cultural chauvinism.  In Ethiopia 10 times as many mosques are being built in Addis Ababa and surrounding suburbs then are Orthodox Churches, this does make me nervous, but not because there are new mosques, rather because of the lack of new churches, which realistically has NOTHING to do with Islam, but is an internal, Christian problem.

I am an American, we live and embrace plurality, because this is common decency.  We are not perfect, but at least our ideal is to aim for mutual respect and tolerance (even if through American bombs, war, and racism we fall quite short quite often Sad )


We only stoke more fires when we are racist, prejudiced, or discriminating.  Further, what about what Apostle Paul told Timothy, "I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels, that you should guard these things apart from prejudice, doing nothing from bias." Timothy 5:22

Two wrongs never make a right, and as cliched as it is, the Good Dr King was correct when he gave his life telling us, "eye for an eye leaves us all blinded."

What disturbs me the most is that some Orthodox Churches join forces with Islamists in the name of (fake) peace and tolerance. These political games make me sick!

What political games? Jesus Christ asked us to love and pray for our enemies, and to pray for those who curse and abuse us spitefully!! How much more than should we be striving for sincere peace and tolerance? How is that a game exactly? What would you prefer, we just genocide all the Muslims off the earth? Peace and tolerance are neither fake nor games, but folks with such negative sentiments as you've posted here only make things worse.  Many of us ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS across the world are for genuine PEACE AND TOLERANCE, you should be more careful not to disrespect us then when expressing your short-sited, self-interested opinions..


The radicalists are blowing things up and terrorizing people precisely because they WANT us to react with fear, prejudice, and yes, violence.  We should be CHRISTIANS, and react with LOVE, CONSOLATION, and PEACE from Jesus Christ in our hearts.  I am so deeply concerned at the amount ornery animosity and even hatred expressed towards Muslims on this forum, many of y'all (who shall remain nameless) should be ridiculously ashamed of yourself Sad

Stay blessed,
Habte Selassie



Habte--I greatly respect your opinion and I happen to agree with most of your posts. However, I must disagree with you on this one thing. It is one thing to hate/dislike Muslims and another to hold to view that Islam is an evil religion. Now, granted that most folks conflate the two and start to hate Muslims.I do not hate Muslims. I do think that Islam contains commandments and permissions to do evil things. Since, these elements of Islam cannot be separated from the other sections (as Muslims insist that all is providential, with the Quran having been written by Allah), the logical conclusion is inescapable. Now, this does not mean that Christians must hate Muslims. Indeed, as some Evangelicals say we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Bottom line, we shoiuld use discretion and use the approach that serves the Lord the best. That does not mean, however, we should ignore reality.
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« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2011, 03:37:57 PM »

Quote
I do think that Islam contains commandments and permissions to do evil things. Since, these elements of Islam cannot be separated from the other sections (as Muslims insist that all is providential, with the Quran having been written by Allah), the logical conclusion is inescapable. Now, this does not mean that Christians must hate Muslims. Indeed, as some Evangelicals say we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Bottom line, we shoiuld use discretion and use the approach that serves the Lord the best. That does not mean, however, we should ignore reality

I second that SC. Well said.

I admittedly, despise Islam. I've read the Quran from cover to cover and I can only state that it give great freedom to their adherents to commit acts which would be considered not only criminal, but inhumane. However, I love Muslims (in fact I admire some Muslims in history very much) and I pray they come to the Lord Jesus.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the "minority" of these "radical" muslims is alot more widespread than the more politically correct are willing to admit to. Which is why I worry.

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« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2011, 05:56:56 PM »


What political games? Jesus Christ asked us to love and pray for our enemies, and to pray for those who curse and abuse us spitefully!!

Did Jesus Christ ask you to support anti-Christian ideologies? For instance, did you pray for the success of the Communists?

How much more than should we be striving for sincere peace and tolerance? How is that a game exactly? What would you prefer, we just genocide all the Muslims off the earth?

Sincere peace and tolerance? So you believe we must help Islamists get what they want? Your sincere peace and tolerance will allow the Islamist armies to conquer Europe, tear down churches and rape even babies in their cradles?  Roll Eyes

Peace and tolerance are neither fake nor games, but folks with such negative sentiments as you've posted here only make things worse.  Many of us ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS across the world are for genuine PEACE AND TOLERANCE, you should be more careful not to disrespect us then when expressing your short-sited, self-interested opinions..

Your peace and tolerance has gained you the logical fallacy of straw-man.

Please answer this question: your understanding of peace and tolerance makes you also shed tears for the fallen demons? My advice to you: Sell what you have and donate to atheists or Satanists so that we can witness your sincere love and tolerance then! 
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« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2011, 06:55:59 PM »

Be wise as serpents, but innocent as doves, the Lord said.

I think there is a paradox here, as with many things in Orthodoxy.

Loving the sinner, hating the sin. Recognizing the error of the heresy, and yet also recognizing the bits of truth there in spite of the lies. This is how Orthodox evangelism has always been done. We have two issues at work--a political one and a religious one. In Orthodoxy, politics is (ideally) informed by religion. In Mohammedanism and in Communism, everything is political. Islam preaches a carnal spirituality, Marxism teaches materialism, they are both militant and force an alternative "religion." And yet, many have been drawn to truth reading passages from the Koran and pondering them, and others have been come to faith, as Fr. Dmitri Dudko said, "through the back door" of believing in the non-existence of God. As Orthodox Christians, we are always going to have enemies and be persecuted--from heretics, from unbelievers, from pagans, from Jews, from false brethren, from atheists, from secular humanists, etc. We have no fellowship with any of them, and yet our mission is to live Orthodoxy so that they might see it and be saved.

While Islam and Marxism are full of evils, there are many Muslims and atheists of goodwill. They are repulsed by evil, and yearn for the truth, though they don't know it since their ideologies have put up blinders. As a historian, I cannot say that these groups have always been violent all the time. It is not true. It is not true, either, that Christians have always kept Christ's commandments all the time. I do not believe that all religions teach love of neighbor the way that Christianity does, but I do believe that all people are capable of finding the good, or of following after evil in a capacity as large as the soul.

So, I think, rather than putting people into categories of good and evil or dangerous and less dangerous based on ideology, if we have to categorize, we should look at actions and motives. Much violence has come from ignorance and idleness--on our part and on theirs. The general trajectory of the world is toward an increase of evil, a heightened paranoia, and toward the martyrdom of all who stand for goodness and truth. But, if we endeavor more and more to live Orthodox lives and work for increased goodness and truth, not being suspicious or afraid, but being the first to show kindness, we may just be able to work about a change in heart in those who are afraid of us or see us as enemies. Many times, through this way of action, sworn enemies have been reconciled. And, if not, then we will endure persecution with faith and the help of God. It is what I vowed to do at baptism, to always be ready to suffer and die for the love of Jesus Christ. God rules the world still, and always shall. Neither my worries or political machinations, nor actions of government, can prevent what God's will has ordered. But prayer and love and philotimo can change the whole game to such a degree that the weak become strong, the blind see, and the deaf hear the word of God and believe it.
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