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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2011, 12:29:54 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Shouldn't the True Church of Christ know where the Sacraments are and are not?

That would be the case if the mission of the Church were to propagate epistemological certainty, which thankfully, it is not.

I agree. So, apparently, does the Vatican, judging by some of its decisions. For example, the fact that the former bishop of London, Graham Leonard, was conditionally ordained to the Catholic priesthood in 1994.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/print.php?id=12-05-046-b
I came across this in the article:
Quote
Since 1992, Forward-in-Faith (an umbrella organization uniting the various groups that arose in opposition to the ordination of women) has forged strong links with “high-church” dissident groups in the Scandinavian Lutheran state churches, especially in Norway and Sweden, forming a sort of “counter Porvoo” to the newly forged links between these bodies. Certain elements in Forward-in-Faith conceived a strong interest in the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) in the United States (the one remaining fully orthodox constituent member church of the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht) as a possible source of episcopal oversight and “Catholic communion” should a formal split occur in the English Church. It is doubtful whether such a jerry-built structure would have attracted the support and commitment that it did, had not the Roman Catholic Church appeared so inhospitable to disenchanted Anglo-Catholics. Nevertheless, Forward-in-Faith followed with great interest the evolving relationship between the PNCC and a high-church or “evangelical catholic” group of clergy and laity within the Norwegian Lutheran State Church, the Samraad pa Kirkens Grunn, which seemed likely to leave the State Church and come under the aegis of the PNCC in early 1998. However, in late 1997 about half of the core clerical leadership of the Samraad became Roman Catholics, casting the remainder of the group into disarray.
The PNCC group fortunately did form, unfortunately because of shortsightenness on the part of the Orthodox, i.e. us.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=15-06-054-i
Quote
Out on a Limb in Norway
An Interview with Norwegian Dissident Roald Flemestad

The Reverend Dr. Roald Flemestad is a senior lecturer on dogmatic theology at Det Norske Diakonhjem (a church-related educational institute that educates “diaconal workers” in medicine and theology) in Oslo, and a former pastor in the (Lutheran) Church of Norway. He is now a priest in the newly formed Nordic Catholic Church, which has eleven clergy, ten of whom are former priests of the Church of Norway. Touchstone correspondent William J. Tighe conducted this interview in August 2000 in Oslo, Norway.

I remember that interview. As a matter of fact I was thinking about it recently, because of one line in it:

"The Roman Catholic Church never gave any indication of an option other than individual conversions."

Makes you wonder if things would have been different, if the "Ordinariate" idea had been around back then.
Somewhat, it was:
Quote
Caught in the Roman Crossfire

The impact of these events upon the Roman Catholic Church was profound, if also obscure. In the heyday of Anglican-Roman Catholic ecumenical rapprochement from the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s, Pope Paul VI had seconded the remarks of the pioneer ecumenist Dom Lambert Beauduin concerning an Anglicanism “united, not absorbed” in a future reconciliation with the Catholic Church. Now the question became whether, given that any hope of rapprochement between the two bodies had been foreclosed by the Anglican acceptance of women’s ordination (together with the host of doctrinal and moral changes that it both symbolized and portended), some elements of the Anglican “worthy patrimony”—another phrase of Paul VI’s—might be accepted by, and fostered within, the communion of the Holy Roman Church. Here, however, as Oddie clearly demonstrates, the would-be Anglican refugees got caught in the crossfire of the ongoing Roman Catholic disputes about the “meaning of Vatican II” and its dubious emanation, the “spirit of Vatican II,” which have bedeviled the Latin Church ever since that council closed in 1965...

....In any event, those few ungenerous provisions that did emerge from the English Catholic bishops’ meeting in April 1993 have been implemented, when at all, in a most minimalist fashion, save in Cardinal Hume’s own Westminster archdiocese, and in all cases they have been “sold” as a temporary device to facilitate the converts’ full integration into the English Roman Catholic community. All of this betokens, as Oddie rightly suggests, a deep fear that an influx of Anglo-Catholics, conservative in matters theological and liturgical if liberal politically, might threaten the mildly but consistently “progressivist” dominance of the English Catholic clerical bureaucracy that, especially in the case of the bishops, sets great store on friendly relations with their Church of England counterparts. Cardinal Ratzinger, according to Oddie, once inquired, “What are the English bishops afraid of?”, and the pope asked, “Why are the English bishops so unapostolic?” Oddie himself remarks that the episode revealed within the Catholic Church “dark cold places, where resentment, suspicion and all uncharitableness yet lurked.”
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« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2011, 12:48:40 PM »

A better question than why it offers communion to the PNCC and the Orthodox (if we would take it), is why it doesn't offer it to its Protestant siblings?

It does in more limited circumstances.

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, and PNCC have maintained a valid priesthood and the essentials of the faith that a general invitation may be made.  The Protestants have not done so only limited individual invitations may be made in limited circumstances, i.e. persecution or no church of their own available.
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« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2011, 01:07:49 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
A better question than why it offers communion to the PNCC and the Orthodox (if we would take it), is why it doesn't offer it to its Protestant siblings?

It does in more limited circumstances.

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, and PNCC have maintained a valid priesthood and the essentials of the faith that a general invitation may be made.  The Protestants have not done so only limited individual invitations may be made in limited circumstances, i.e. persecution or no church of their own available.
What difference would a "valid priesthood" make? as the Vatican gives communion before confirmation/chrismation, and accepts Protestant baptism as "valid."  I've heard Fr. Corapi (btw, I just saw the sad news that he his leaving your priesthood.  Lord have mercy!) say over and over how the Protestants have two sacraments. If they can contract a sacramental marriage, and the Vatican thinks they can, surely reception of the Eucharist from one of the Vatican's priests shouldn't be hard.

Btw, has the Vatican stopped this intercommunion with the usurpers of the Union of Utrecht?
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« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2011, 01:15:00 PM »

I'm guessing that the PNCC would have problems with "St. Bernadette" and the "Visionaries of Fatima."

You guessed wrong.  The PNCC has one parish named after the Immaculate Conception, another named after Our Lady of Fatima and another after the Assupmtion of Mary.   I think they reject the dogmatization of the IC/Assumption not the underlying concept?  How can you have parishes named after those things otherwise?  They also have parishes named after the Sacred Heart and Holy Mother of the Rosary.
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« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2011, 01:33:33 PM »

What difference would a "valid priesthood" make? as the Vatican gives communion before confirmation/chrismation, and accepts Protestant baptism as "valid."  I've heard Fr. Corapi (btw, I just saw the sad news that he his leaving your priesthood.  Lord have mercy!) say over and over how the Protestants have two sacraments. If they can contract a sacramental marriage, and the Vatican thinks they can, surely reception of the Eucharist from one of the Vatican's priests shouldn't be hard.

Btw, has the Vatican stopped this intercommunion with the usurpers of the Union of Utrecht?

If a church has a valid priesthood it has a correct understanding of the Eucharist.  If a Protestant wishes to make use of the allowance they must profess an understanding of the Eucharist compatible with the Catholic faith, i.e. they must believe in the Real Presence.  Probably only to be found among the Anglo and Evangelical Catholic movements in the Anglican and Lutheran Churches.  Those Protestants that believe in spiritual presence or memorial only could not be extended the invitation.

I don't think there has ever been intercommunion between the other Old Catholic Churches and my Church.  The PNCC is the lone exception, although I imagine the Slovak Old Catholic Church if they approached would be approved.
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« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2011, 01:39:42 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
I'm guessing that the PNCC would have problems with "St. Bernadette" and the "Visionaries of Fatima."

You guessed wrong.  The PNCC has one parish named after the Immaculate Conception, another named after Our Lady of Fatima and another after the Assupmtion of Mary.   I think they reject the dogmatization of the IC/Assumption not the underlying concept?
Their Church's confession distinguishs between "dogma" and "dogmatization,"  and explicitely renounces "the dogma of the Immaculate Conception" and "the dogmatization of the Catholic teaching of the bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary."
How can you parishes named after those things otherwise?
 
You would have to ask them. In our case (we have lots of "Churches of the Assumption" in the US) mistranslation.


They also have parishes named after the Sacred Heart and Holy Mother of the Rosary.
WRO have the Rosary too.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2011, 02:05:23 PM »

A better question is having renounced: the filioque, papal infallibility and supremacy,  original sin, immaculate conception, mandatory celibacy, councils after the first seven, why don't you guys have intercommunion with them?
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2011, 02:10:07 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
A better question is having renounced: the filioque, papal infallibility and supremacy,  original sin, immaculate conception, mandatory celibacy, councils after the first seven, why don't you guys have intercommunion with them?
I asked someone in the WRO vicarate about that, and he said there were talks that the PNCC pulled out of.  Don't know why.
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« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2011, 09:08:48 PM »

I've been to their parishes.  So rule no. one in the RCC is to recognise the pope as universal head of the church, look it up on the vatican website.  So you can PROTEST Rome  and deny the pope but still share communion.  Hmm, sounds like a protestant to me.

And here I thought rule number one was to Love God with all my heart and my neighbor as myself.  The Orthodox also protest Rome and deny the pope but are welcome to still share Communion.  Does that make you protestant?

No, because Rome left the original pentarchy, how can I protest Rome?  Constantinople was Rome long after Rome itself was burnt by the forerunners of the Germans.  How can I protest Rome when even in Turkish the Othodox are still called "Rum" which means Roman.  We never left Rome, we always were Rome, albeit the Eastern Capital of the Roman Empire.  Didn't say I didn't love my neighbour, that's a strawman.
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« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2011, 09:51:14 PM »

I've been to their parishes.  So rule no. one in the RCC is to recognise the pope as universal head of the church, look it up on the vatican website.  So you can PROTEST Rome  and deny the pope but still share communion.  Hmm, sounds like a protestant to me.

And here I thought rule number one was to Love God with all my heart and my neighbor as myself.  The Orthodox also protest Rome and deny the pope but are welcome to still share Communion.  Does that make you protestant?

No, because Rome left the original pentarchy, how can I protest Rome?  Constantinople was Rome long after Rome itself was burnt by the forerunners of the Germans.  How can I protest Rome when even in Turkish the Othodox are still called "Rum" which means Roman.  We never left Rome, we always were Rome, albeit the Eastern Capital of the Roman Empire.  Didn't say I didn't love my neighbour, that's a strawman.

So then is your position that all Christians who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox are automatically Protestant?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2011, 10:15:06 PM »

I was just by their mother cathedral in Chicago.  I hadn't noticed before, but all the signs now say "National Catholic Church."

Btw,
Quote
1931 Sixth General Synod – Buffalo, Bishop Hodur
laments the spiritual decline of the church feeling many
saw the Polish National Catholic Church as just a copy
of the Roman Catholic Church – He offers to step down as
Prime Bishop. It affirms Polish National Catholic belief
in:

The Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

The role of the priest
as minister of the sacrament of marriage (not as its witness as in Roman
Catholic Church).

Mass facing the people is instituted in Scranton by Bp. Hodur Altar of
Sacrifice introduced.
http://www.pncc.org/?page_id=6

The last is strange, but the statement on marriage is the Orthodox one, not the Vatican's.

1931 would be the same time the Old Catholics met with the Orthodox at Bonn
http://anglicanhistory.org/oc/bonn1931.html
but the Old Catholics entered into communion with the Anglicans/Episcoplians.
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2011, 12:18:06 AM »

I was just by their mother cathedral in Chicago.  I hadn't noticed before, but all the signs now say "National Catholic Church."

Isa,

As I mentioned earlier,

Quote from: Irish Melkite
Because some of those non-Polish parishes (Slovak, Lithuanian, etc) which were subsumed declined to adopt the 'Polish' in their styling, one will occasionally see individual PNCC parishes that are styled as St ________'s National Catholic Church (with no ethnicity indicated in the name).

I probably should have expanded on that to note that there has been some tendency in recent years to use just 'National Catholic Church' - even by historically Polish parishes. I think this came about in response to an influx of non-Poles from the ranks of Latin faithful. I don't think the usage is anywhere near becoming the norm (synodal meetings, etc are still styled as being of the 'PNCC'), but one does see it in individual instances (I can think of a couple of parishes in western NY state and a couple in PA where I've noticed it). I hadn't been aware of any of their cathedrals doing so, though, until you mentioned this case.

Many years,

Neil
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