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Author Topic: Why do Christians put their children in public school?  (Read 3921 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2011, 11:09:20 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
We can take a good example from the cult of "Amish" who are anti modern, anti social, and anti truth.  I have never looked upon this pernicious sect of Anabaptist as some type of pillar of virtue and truth.  They are deluded and spiritually dead individuals. 


It is the way of all cults to be inward looking and to reject the common good of society in favor of their own schemes and ideals.  Why would we Christians who have the true faith seek to imitate them (And other cults) In any way?  Rather we should face the world boldly knowing that we have faith and to the pure, all things are pure.

What ARE you talking about?

The Amish set their youth free in Rumspringa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
and the vast majority of them come back and take up the Amish covenant.

Even those who don't, it seems lots of them live as "ex-Amish," not following all the rules but evidently the morality.  I was just watching a program on a community in Columbia, MO.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/amish-at-the-altar-4960/Overview
where, btw, I learned that the traditional Amish reading for weddings is the Book of Tobit (!).  In it a ex-amish couple have an Amish wedding, attended by an ex-Amish bishop, with ex-Amish friends, etc.   The change was such things as having wedding photos (Amish do not allow marriage with non-Amish, and do not allow marriage until one has taken the Amish covenant and been baptized Amish: in the program one couple are ending their Rumspringa, during which they are photographed and filmed, once they announced their intention to take the covenant, be baptized, and get married stopped filming), having wedding rings (the Amish sort of take them as ostentation and superfluous to the wedding vows), a wedding kiss (Amish don't believe in PDA), etc.  but they otherwise seem to be conservative Christians.

The overall rate of Amish retention of their youth is 90% (although it does have a harsh side, if you do not accept baptism, you have to leave the community and be shunned). Do the Orthodox have anything approaching that rate?  Does the Vatican?  Do the Evangelicals?  Given that their lifestyle compares favorably to what the Fathers praised, and their theology is largely (though, of course not totally) sound (their Soteriology and ideas about atonement are far more Orthodox than the Vatican's), we should envy them.  At least for their growth rate-they have gone from 5,000 in 1920 to over a quarter million today (just for the Old Order Amish), making them among the fastest growing populations in the world.
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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2011, 11:14:04 AM »

I will chime in hear as a Public School teacher. I see what happens in the schools from day to day and I deeply concerned. My concern is not over the effort put forth by teachers. My concern is not over the work administrators do to help support learning in the classroom. My biggest concern is the effect that the philosophy of secular humanism is having in the classroom. It creates an environment where it is difficult to have a meaningful teacher-student relationships in which teachers can serve as ethical/moral role models. It keeps students from asking the ultimate and meaningful questions because the slothful and intellectually lazy philosophies of subjectivism, relativism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, and materialism rule the day. I think that perhaps the greatest reason that there is a higher level of success in parochial schools is the rejection of such infantile modes of thinking, and true connection to classical thought of the past. Allan Bloom's Book, The Closing of the American Mind, though written in the 80s and addressing university education, can easily be applied to modern secular primary and secondary schools.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 11:14:45 AM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2011, 11:29:52 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.


As a public school teacher I disagree with you completely in regards to homeschooling.  Private schools, religious schools, these are more than appropriate alternatives to shabby public schooling HOWEVER homeschooling can be devestating to kids' social development, networking skills, coping mechanisms for stress, ability to shine under pressure etc etc.. Kids who are home schooled often are like the Buddha before he left his palace, and it backfires on parents who mistakenly believe they can shelter their kids from the world forever.  Newsflash people, it simply can't be done.  Our kids will grow up and carry on living in the world, just as we all do, just as Jesus Christ commissioned us all to be out in the world as He is in the world.  We may not be of the world, but we surely can't escape the reality that we are in remaining in the world.

Public schools are where people learn to become people, to make friends, to deal with enemies and adversity, to learn how to navigate beauracracies, to achieve public recognition at accomplishments, etc etc..  

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I agree that there are many evils in public schooling, but there are just as many virtues, this is because it is in the world, and all things in the world are this blend of good and bad.  There is no perfection in Earth aside from the Divine Mysteries, so lets all just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get back to work, we got millions of kids to raise into the future. After all, we are born naked and die naked, our material gains and intellectual pursuits are empty in this regard, the only real legacy God grants us on Earth are those of our children who as cliched as it is, are truly the future.  I am VERY disheartened by the amount of vitriolic backlash teachers have been getting lately at the pulpits, in the newspapers, around the water coolers, its really not fair for so many spectators to pundit around their misinformed two-cents as if it were the Gospel truth, its like my dear sweet grandmother taught me, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.
That's a gross exaggeration and appeal to raw emotion that has no place in a rational discussion of this issue.
It is gross, but unfortunately not much of an exaggeration.  Many students think socializing is the purpose of school.

Comparing the schools in the city to those in the suburbs here in Chicago, it seems that the real difference is the amount of parental involvement and the amount of back up in addressing problems.  At my sons' school I just had to talk to one teacher, and even over his mother's objection and indifference, his problems were addressed.  In the city, a teacher can call home, and even if someone is there on the other end (a big if), aid is rather bureaucratic.

But the bottom line, if your culture is in the gutter, how do you expect your schooling not to smell funny?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2011, 11:33:06 AM »

It is gross, but unfortunately not much of an exaggeration.  Many students think socializing is the purpose of school.

Comparing the schools in the city to those in the suburbs here in Chicago, it seems that the real difference is the amount of parental involvement and the amount of back up in addressing problems.  At my sons' school I just had to talk to one teacher, and even over his mother's objection and indifference, his problems were addressed.  In the city, a teacher can call home, and even if someone is there on the other end (a big if), aid is rather bureaucratic.

But the bottom line, if your culture is in the gutter, how do you expect your schooling not to smell funny?
Wow Izzy. I couldn't agree more. As a teacher this is precisely our day to day experience and one of our constant complaints. We are not only fighting against a culture that is fundamentally in opposition to the true purpose of education, but we also are fighting a population of parents who either do not care about their kids and education or are philosophically hostile to learning and "the system". Now that we are holding teachers "accountable" I really wish that there was a fair and reasonable to way to hold parents accountable.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 11:33:44 AM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2011, 11:36:06 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.


As a public school teacher I disagree with you completely in regards to homeschooling.  Private schools, religious schools, these are more than appropriate alternatives to shabby public schooling HOWEVER homeschooling can be devestating to kids' social development, networking skills, coping mechanisms for stress, ability to shine under pressure etc etc.. Kids who are home schooled often are like the Buddha before he left his palace, and it backfires on parents who mistakenly believe they can shelter their kids from the world forever.  Newsflash people, it simply can't be done.  Our kids will grow up and carry on living in the world, just as we all do, just as Jesus Christ commissioned us all to be out in the world as He is in the world.  We may not be of the world, but we surely can't escape the reality that we are in remaining in the world.

Public schools are where people learn to become people, to make friends, to deal with enemies and adversity, to learn how to navigate beauracracies, to achieve public recognition at accomplishments, etc etc..  

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I agree that there are many evils in public schooling, but there are just as many virtues, this is because it is in the world, and all things in the world are this blend of good and bad.  There is no perfection in Earth aside from the Divine Mysteries, so lets all just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get back to work, we got millions of kids to raise into the future. After all, we are born naked and die naked, our material gains and intellectual pursuits are empty in this regard, the only real legacy God grants us on Earth are those of our children who as cliched as it is, are truly the future.  I am VERY disheartened by the amount of vitriolic backlash teachers have been getting lately at the pulpits, in the newspapers, around the water coolers, its really not fair for so many spectators to pundit around their misinformed two-cents as if it were the Gospel truth, its like my dear sweet grandmother taught me, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.
That's a gross exaggeration and appeal to raw emotion that has no place in a rational discussion of this issue.

You would be right, if that is not actually and factually going on in public schools. However, the fact of the matter is that that is exactly what is going on in public schools. Most of my students watch smut like Jersey Shore and believe that that is way they are supposed to behave. For them, if Lady Gaga does it or says it, it must be ok. I would be totally in favor of returning to the old liberal arts, teachings students virtue, and a focus on the classics, rather than on Marxist nonsense that breeds a sophomoric anti-bourgeois ire.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 11:38:47 AM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2011, 11:46:56 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
We can take a good example from the cult of "Amish" who are anti modern, anti social, and anti truth.  I have never looked upon this pernicious sect of Anabaptist as some type of pillar of virtue and truth.  They are deluded and spiritually dead individuals. 


It is the way of all cults to be inward looking and to reject the common good of society in favor of their own schemes and ideals.  Why would we Christians who have the true faith seek to imitate them (And other cults) In any way?  Rather we should face the world boldly knowing that we have faith and to the pure, all things are pure.

What ARE you talking about?

The Amish set their youth free in Rumspringa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
and the vast majority of them come back and take up the Amish covenant.

Even those who don't, it seems lots of them live as "ex-Amish," not following all the rules but evidently the morality.  I was just watching a program on a community in Columbia, MO.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/amish-at-the-altar-4960/Overview
where, btw, I learned that the traditional Amish reading for weddings is the Book of Tobit (!).  In it a ex-amish couple have an Amish wedding, attended by an ex-Amish bishop, with ex-Amish friends, etc.   The change was such things as having wedding photos (Amish do not allow marriage with non-Amish, and do not allow marriage until one has taken the Amish covenant and been baptized Amish: in the program one couple are ending their Rumspringa, during which they are photographed and filmed, once they announced their intention to take the covenant, be baptized, and get married stopped filming), having wedding rings (the Amish sort of take them as ostentation and superfluous to the wedding vows), a wedding kiss (Amish don't believe in PDA), etc.  but they otherwise seem to be conservative Christians.

The overall rate of Amish retention of their youth is 90% (although it does have a harsh side, if you do not accept baptism, you have to leave the community and be shunned). Do the Orthodox have anything approaching that rate?  Does the Vatican?  Do the Evangelicals?  Given that their lifestyle compares favorably to what the Fathers praised, and their theology is largely (though, of course not totally) sound (their Soteriology and ideas about atonement are far more Orthodox than the Vatican's), we should envy them.  At least for their growth rate-they have gone from 5,000 in 1920 to over a quarter million today (just for the Old Order Amish), making them among the fastest growing populations in the world.

Haven't you figured out yet that if it's something Robb wouldn't do himself, it's automatically suspect and if it's even slightly inconvenient to him, it's plain wrong?

Great post, Isa. 
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2011, 12:26:09 PM »

I will chime in hear as a Public School teacher. I see what happens in the schools from day to day and I deeply concerned. My concern is not over the effort put forth by teachers. My concern is not over the work administrators do to help support learning in the classroom. My biggest concern is the effect that the philosophy of secular humanism is having in the classroom. It creates an environment where it is difficult to have a meaningful teacher-student relationships in which teachers can serve as ethical/moral role models. It keeps students from asking the ultimate and meaningful questions because the slothful and intellectually lazy philosophies of subjectivism, relativism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, and materialism rule the day. I think that perhaps the greatest reason that there is a higher level of success in parochial schools is the rejection of such infantile modes of thinking, and true connection to classical thought of the past. Allan Bloom's Book, The Closing of the American Mind, though written in the 80s and addressing university education, can easily be applied to modern secular primary and secondary schools.

Papist,
This is what I wanted to say, but could not find the words. Thank you!
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2011, 12:33:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.


As a public school teacher I disagree with you completely in regards to homeschooling.  Private schools, religious schools, these are more than appropriate alternatives to shabby public schooling HOWEVER homeschooling can be devestating to kids' social development, networking skills, coping mechanisms for stress, ability to shine under pressure etc etc.. Kids who are home schooled often are like the Buddha before he left his palace, and it backfires on parents who mistakenly believe they can shelter their kids from the world forever.  Newsflash people, it simply can't be done.  Our kids will grow up and carry on living in the world, just as we all do, just as Jesus Christ commissioned us all to be out in the world as He is in the world.  We may not be of the world, but we surely can't escape the reality that we are in remaining in the world.

Public schools are where people learn to become people, to make friends, to deal with enemies and adversity, to learn how to navigate beauracracies, to achieve public recognition at accomplishments, etc etc..  

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I agree that there are many evils in public schooling, but there are just as many virtues, this is because it is in the world, and all things in the world are this blend of good and bad.  There is no perfection in Earth aside from the Divine Mysteries, so lets all just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get back to work, we got millions of kids to raise into the future. After all, we are born naked and die naked, our material gains and intellectual pursuits are empty in this regard, the only real legacy God grants us on Earth are those of our children who as cliched as it is, are truly the future.  I am VERY disheartened by the amount of vitriolic backlash teachers have been getting lately at the pulpits, in the newspapers, around the water coolers, its really not fair for so many spectators to pundit around their misinformed two-cents as if it were the Gospel truth, its like my dear sweet grandmother taught me, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.
That's a gross exaggeration and appeal to raw emotion that has no place in a rational discussion of this issue.

You would be right, if that is not actually and factually going on in public schools. However, the fact of the matter is that that is exactly what is going on in public schools. Most of my students watch smut like Jersey Shore and believe that that is way they are supposed to behave. For them, if Lady Gaga does it or says it, it must be ok. I would be totally in favor of returning to the old liberal arts, teachings students virtue, and a focus on the classics, rather than on Marxist nonsense that breeds a sophomoric anti-bourgeois ire.

I completely agree. There is much potential (and even much realization) for any kind of education (public, private, homeschooling) to raise up the mind above the cesspool of contemporary anticulture (which has, perhaps, always existed), and open hearts to virtues, to form a mind which questions with thoughtfulness instead of passively acceptance/rebellion. Even in my experience in public school, decades ago, it was a rare, but effective teacher who got students to start asking "why?" Why do you like that? Why are they doing that? What is the underlying meaning? This line of questioning is extremely valuable, but any form of education if it is incomplete can neglect it.
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 12:55:07 PM »

It is gross, but unfortunately not much of an exaggeration.  Many students think socializing is the purpose of school.

Comparing the schools in the city to those in the suburbs here in Chicago, it seems that the real difference is the amount of parental involvement and the amount of back up in addressing problems.  At my sons' school I just had to talk to one teacher, and even over his mother's objection and indifference, his problems were addressed.  In the city, a teacher can call home, and even if someone is there on the other end (a big if), aid is rather bureaucratic.

But the bottom line, if your culture is in the gutter, how do you expect your schooling not to smell funny?
Wow Izzy. I couldn't agree more. As a teacher this is precisely our day to day experience and one of our constant complaints. We are not only fighting against a culture that is fundamentally in opposition to the true purpose of education, but we also are fighting a population of parents who either do not care about their kids and education or are philosophically hostile to learning and "the system". Now that we are holding teachers "accountable" I really wish that there was a fair and reasonable to way to hold parents accountable.

My nephew is a teacher in a rural district nearby and he agrees 100% with you. I spent years working in Childrens' Services and the courts and I too agree.

When the majority of American 4th graders don't know who Lincoln was in this sesquicentennial of the Civil War, one has to ask where we are destined.
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2011, 08:37:01 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
We can take a good example from the cult of "Amish" who are anti modern, anti social, and anti truth.  I have never looked upon this pernicious sect of Anabaptist as some type of pillar of virtue and truth.  They are deluded and spiritually dead individuals.  


It is the way of all cults to be inward looking and to reject the common good of society in favor of their own schemes and ideals.  Why would we Christians who have the true faith seek to imitate them (And other cults) In any way?  Rather we should face the world boldly knowing that we have faith and to the pure, all things are pure.

What ARE you talking about?

The Amish set their youth free in Rumspringa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
and the vast majority of them come back and take up the Amish covenant.

Even those who don't, it seems lots of them live as "ex-Amish," not following all the rules but evidently the morality.  I was just watching a program on a community in Columbia, MO.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/amish-at-the-altar-4960/Overview
where, btw, I learned that the traditional Amish reading for weddings is the Book of Tobit (!).  In it a ex-amish couple have an Amish wedding, attended by an ex-Amish bishop, with ex-Amish friends, etc.   The change was such things as having wedding photos (Amish do not allow marriage with non-Amish, and do not allow marriage until one has taken the Amish covenant and been baptized Amish: in the program one couple are ending their Rumspringa, during which they are photographed and filmed, once they announced their intention to take the covenant, be baptized, and get married stopped filming), having wedding rings (the Amish sort of take them as ostentation and superfluous to the wedding vows), a wedding kiss (Amish don't believe in PDA), etc.  but they otherwise seem to be conservative Christians.

The overall rate of Amish retention of their youth is 90% (although it does have a harsh side, if you do not accept baptism, you have to leave the community and be shunned). Do the Orthodox have anything approaching that rate?  Does the Vatican?  Do the Evangelicals?  Given that their lifestyle compares favorably to what the Fathers praised, and their theology is largely (though, of course not totally) sound (their Soteriology and ideas about atonement are far more Orthodox than the Vatican's), we should envy them.  At least for their growth rate-they have gone from 5,000 in 1920 to over a quarter million today (just for the Old Order Amish), making them among the fastest growing populations in the world.

Just a chime in from what we experienced living with the Amish for several months.. (Great post btw)

Rumspringa is not something that the Amish "set their kids free with".
Rumspringa is not even something "practiced".
Rumspringa is merely that the Amish are willing to look past many things that the youth do in rebellion.  Many Amish youth do not even go through it (in fact the vast majority).  When they do, it is often mild (such as the flipping up of the rims of their hats or using more ornate things on their buggies).  

Upon Baptism they are members of the church as adults.

Sometimes people make Rumspringa sound as if there is a huge band of adulterous drug laden activity going on because they saw the 20/20 episode.   I saw with my own eyes teens who were "forgiven" in rumspringa, what they were doing is putting red feathers in their hat and one had a blue feather as well.

It's not always a "huge" deal.  I would say less than 1% of the Amish go into severe activity during Rumspringa.

You are right, the Amish have a great retention rate, and people are shunned if they do not join in.  However, it's kind of like "you can't have your cake and eat it too".  For instance, if somebody does not want to be part of the church, but still enjoy some of the benefits the Amish have with one another, yes you are "shunned".   The moment somebody repents and comes back, there is open arms.

The Eastern Orthodox sort of have similar things.  I've witnessed gay people be excommunicated.  (A form of shunning).   This is perhaps on a weaker level, but if the gay person truly repents and is sorry, there is open arms.

The Amish & Mennonites do truly live as the early Christians.  Their lifestyle is a huge part of what we try to implement as much as possible in our home.  Absolutely great post though.  No way no how are they a cult.
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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2011, 09:24:43 PM »

Not all the public schools are bad. It depends on where you live.

Also, let's remember the parents' responsibilities to inculcate faith in the children's lives, no matter what school the kids go to. The parents have to show initiative; they can't just sit back and expect the local system to do everything for them.
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« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2011, 10:17:27 PM »

Not all the public schools are bad. It depends on where you live.

Also, let's remember the parents' responsibilities to inculcate faith in the children's lives, no matter what school the kids go to. The parents have to show initiative; they can't just sit back and expect the local system to do everything for them.

Well the issue in the thread is that the government is obviously tied into the public school system.  If the government will be tied into the system of the beast, and none of us TRULY know when the end days will come, why would any parent put their children in public school if it is juiced into the government which will (or is) juiced in with the beast system?
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« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2011, 10:28:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Not all the public schools are bad. It depends on where you live.

Also, let's remember the parents' responsibilities to inculcate faith in the children's lives, no matter what school the kids go to. The parents have to show initiative; they can't just sit back and expect the local system to do everything for them.

Well the issue in the thread is that the government is obviously tied into the public school system.  If the government will be tied into the system of the beast, and none of us TRULY know when the end days will come, why would any parent put their children in public school if it is juiced into the government which will (or is) juiced in with the beast system?

So the Beast wouldn't know where we live eh? Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2011, 03:24:54 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
We can take a good example from the cult of "Amish" who are anti modern, anti social, and anti truth.  I have never looked upon this pernicious sect of Anabaptist as some type of pillar of virtue and truth.  They are deluded and spiritually dead individuals.  


It is the way of all cults to be inward looking and to reject the common good of society in favor of their own schemes and ideals.  Why would we Christians who have the true faith seek to imitate them (And other cults) In any way?  Rather we should face the world boldly knowing that we have faith and to the pure, all things are pure.

What ARE you talking about?

The Amish set their youth free in Rumspringa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
and the vast majority of them come back and take up the Amish covenant.

Even those who don't, it seems lots of them live as "ex-Amish," not following all the rules but evidently the morality.  I was just watching a program on a community in Columbia, MO.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/amish-at-the-altar-4960/Overview
where, btw, I learned that the traditional Amish reading for weddings is the Book of Tobit (!).  In it a ex-amish couple have an Amish wedding, attended by an ex-Amish bishop, with ex-Amish friends, etc.   The change was such things as having wedding photos (Amish do not allow marriage with non-Amish, and do not allow marriage until one has taken the Amish covenant and been baptized Amish: in the program one couple are ending their Rumspringa, during which they are photographed and filmed, once they announced their intention to take the covenant, be baptized, and get married stopped filming), having wedding rings (the Amish sort of take them as ostentation and superfluous to the wedding vows), a wedding kiss (Amish don't believe in PDA), etc.  but they otherwise seem to be conservative Christians.

The overall rate of Amish retention of their youth is 90% (although it does have a harsh side, if you do not accept baptism, you have to leave the community and be shunned). Do the Orthodox have anything approaching that rate?  Does the Vatican?  Do the Evangelicals?  Given that their lifestyle compares favorably to what the Fathers praised, and their theology is largely (though, of course not totally) sound (their Soteriology and ideas about atonement are far more Orthodox than the Vatican's), we should envy them.  At least for their growth rate-they have gone from 5,000 in 1920 to over a quarter million today (just for the Old Order Amish), making them among the fastest growing populations in the world.

 The Amish are a cult and cults are rather difficult to get out of (Given the level of indoctrination and inculturation that one experiences from birth) It doesn't suprise me that they have such a high rate of retention. You can easily point to other cults such as the Mormons, Hasidic Jews, and JW's which have a similar rate of retention among their youth.  Given the isolation from the outside world from the time of birth,  and process of shunning from all family and friends that one has known if they choose to leave the "church", is it any wonder why so many of these Amish youth stay in? They are part of the Anabaptist family and thereby reject such important Church teachings as the priesthood, Eucharist, veneration of saints and images, etc... I could personally care less about how many of their brainwashed youth choose to follow their forebearers into a clannish and seclusive existence.  They are, in the end an irrelevant sect which seeks to abandon and shun the world instead of trying to build up Gods kingdom here.  
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2011, 03:30:08 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
We can take a good example from the cult of "Amish" who are anti modern, anti social, and anti truth.  I have never looked upon this pernicious sect of Anabaptist as some type of pillar of virtue and truth.  They are deluded and spiritually dead individuals. 


It is the way of all cults to be inward looking and to reject the common good of society in favor of their own schemes and ideals.  Why would we Christians who have the true faith seek to imitate them (And other cults) In any way?  Rather we should face the world boldly knowing that we have faith and to the pure, all things are pure.

What ARE you talking about?

The Amish set their youth free in Rumspringa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
and the vast majority of them come back and take up the Amish covenant.

Even those who don't, it seems lots of them live as "ex-Amish," not following all the rules but evidently the morality.  I was just watching a program on a community in Columbia, MO.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/amish-at-the-altar-4960/Overview
where, btw, I learned that the traditional Amish reading for weddings is the Book of Tobit (!).  In it a ex-amish couple have an Amish wedding, attended by an ex-Amish bishop, with ex-Amish friends, etc.   The change was such things as having wedding photos (Amish do not allow marriage with non-Amish, and do not allow marriage until one has taken the Amish covenant and been baptized Amish: in the program one couple are ending their Rumspringa, during which they are photographed and filmed, once they announced their intention to take the covenant, be baptized, and get married stopped filming), having wedding rings (the Amish sort of take them as ostentation and superfluous to the wedding vows), a wedding kiss (Amish don't believe in PDA), etc.  but they otherwise seem to be conservative Christians.

The overall rate of Amish retention of their youth is 90% (although it does have a harsh side, if you do not accept baptism, you have to leave the community and be shunned). Do the Orthodox have anything approaching that rate?  Does the Vatican?  Do the Evangelicals?  Given that their lifestyle compares favorably to what the Fathers praised, and their theology is largely (though, of course not totally) sound (their Soteriology and ideas about atonement are far more Orthodox than the Vatican's), we should envy them.  At least for their growth rate-they have gone from 5,000 in 1920 to over a quarter million today (just for the Old Order Amish), making them among the fastest growing populations in the world.

Haven't you figured out yet that if it's something Robb wouldn't do himself, it's automatically suspect and if it's even slightly inconvenient to him, it's plain wrong?

Great post, Isa. 

I definitely would not join a cult like the Amish nor praise their anti social behavior as virtuous. A few positives don't justify a ton of negatives.
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« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2011, 09:50:57 PM »

Forgive me the Johnny-Come-Lately,

I guess I was very blessed when it comes to public schooling. My HS was stocked with dedicated, caring teachers who always were there for kids who needed extra tutoring. Regarding respect of teachers, I was also blessed to have parents who wouldn't tolerate any disrespect towards my educators at all.
It's my opinion that in constantly criticizing teachers, who try as they might, can't make everyone happy (particularly teachers of Literature, History, and Science). This spills over into the students' minds that teachers are atheistic, anti-American, racist subversives; and as such undeserving of attention or respect.
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« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2011, 10:38:38 PM »

I definitely would not join a cult like the Amish nor praise their anti social behavior as virtuous. A few positives don't justify a ton of negatives.

Amish or Mennonites have absolutely no attributes to a cult at all.  There is no charismatic leader at all.  In fact if you really would learn about them you would find that they mimic a lot of early Christian practices.   If you believe they are anti-social you would be absolutely incorrect 100% of the way.  Amish make business with everybody.  They have newspapers called "The Budget" that you can get if you want.  They are incredibly social, have social gatherings, completely community driven, completely involved in public events with boots, festivals, etc.  They run tons of businesses in many communities from restaurants, bakeries, blacksmiths... They work building & construction jobs, build RV's, and inter mingle with the general public a lot. 

To demote them to a "cult" would be absolutely incorrect.  They are not EXACTLY parallel with Eastern Orthodox Christianity, however, it may surprise you if you took the time to learn about them, that many of their functions mimic early Eastern Orthodoxy Catholic Christianity.

If head coverings for women, conservative dress (ahem nuns, cassocks??), not competing with neighbors, simple content living, and placing God then Family first is your idea of a cult.......  Tell ya what, seriously, please read about them.  No need for me to lecture.
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« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2011, 10:50:28 PM »

Forgive me the Johnny-Come-Lately,

I guess I was very blessed when it comes to public schooling. My HS was stocked with dedicated, caring teachers who always were there for kids who needed extra tutoring. Regarding respect of teachers, I was also blessed to have parents who wouldn't tolerate any disrespect towards my educators at all.
It's my opinion that in constantly criticizing teachers, who try as they might, can't make everyone happy (particularly teachers of Literature, History, and Science). This spills over into the students' minds that teachers are atheistic, anti-American, racist subversives; and as such undeserving of attention or respect.

Nah, you aren't late!  Smiley

It's not the issue really with the disrespect towards teachers.  I do myself believe that most teachers are honorable and want to teach the students.  However I do feel that many teachers are blind and/or restrained because they have had their hands tied.

God is not allowed in public school.
wait.... wait.....
GOD IS NOT ALLOWED IN PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!!
let me think of another reason.
Hmmm.
GOD IS NOT ALLOWED IN PUBLIC SCHOOL!

There is nothing else that matters other than that point.  An "education" begins in God, ends in God, and is filled with God - to leave God out is to violate a child's identity, capabilities, and moral character for a lifetime.

Smaller issues are:
Curriculum that is secular.
Curriculum that is often funded by the Rockerfeller foundation. (Biased)
History books that are often only written by the victors.   (In my High School education - Where did the native Americans go again??)
Science & the Big Bang, without God involved, evolution taught which leads to atheism.
Health - There is no soul.  Sex ed about homosexuality being natural.
English - Death - The Raven.  Death - Julius Caesar.  Death - Mask of the Red Death.  Death - MacDeath Smiley.  Death - Romeo & Juliet.   Moral value?  Lessons of virtue?  Oh, but we may be taught Chivalry without Christ as we go through King Aurthur's fiction.
Math - Cool.

SO it's not the teachers per se, its everything that school doesn't teach.  About God, Love, Contentment, Stable Family values, or teachings of Christ.
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« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2011, 11:33:28 PM »

I went to public school because my parents couldn't afford to send me to private school.

I will chime in hear as a Public School teacher. I see what happens in the schools from day to day and I deeply concerned. My concern is not over the effort put forth by teachers. My concern is not over the work administrators do to help support learning in the classroom. My biggest concern is the effect that the philosophy of secular humanism is having in the classroom. It creates an environment where it is difficult to have a meaningful teacher-student relationships in which teachers can serve as ethical/moral role models. It keeps students from asking the ultimate and meaningful questions because the slothful and intellectually lazy philosophies of subjectivism, relativism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, and materialism rule the day. I think that perhaps the greatest reason that there is a higher level of success in parochial schools is the rejection of such infantile modes of thinking, and true connection to classical thought of the past. Allan Bloom's Book, The Closing of the American Mind, though written in the 80s and addressing university education, can easily be applied to modern secular primary and secondary schools.

Wonderful post! I agree with you 100%. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but I sometimes think that MTV is used as a type of mind control. Look at how the youth conform to the culture it puts forth! It is terrible. As someone who does want to one day become a teacher, I hope that there will be some change in how things are taught. I would love to see more humanities in schools. The problem also lies with parents. I've heard horror stories from my friend's mother who teaches at the middle school I went to. Parents only care about test scores and if their child is struggling in class, then they blame it on the teacher. One story comes to mind when a parent came into the school one day with all the artwork (very well done I should add) their child made in art class. They threw it on the floor and said that they didn't want their child to waste their time on "useless things like art." It is unfortunate what our culture is coming to. Children need to be challenged intellectually and should actually be allowed to think and question things. However, the MTV culture kids don't want anything to do with that and parents don't see such things as important.
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« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2011, 11:50:40 PM »

I went to public school because my parents couldn't afford to send me to private school.

I will chime in hear as a Public School teacher. I see what happens in the schools from day to day and I deeply concerned. My concern is not over the effort put forth by teachers. My concern is not over the work administrators do to help support learning in the classroom. My biggest concern is the effect that the philosophy of secular humanism is having in the classroom. It creates an environment where it is difficult to have a meaningful teacher-student relationships in which teachers can serve as ethical/moral role models. It keeps students from asking the ultimate and meaningful questions because the slothful and intellectually lazy philosophies of subjectivism, relativism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, and materialism rule the day. I think that perhaps the greatest reason that there is a higher level of success in parochial schools is the rejection of such infantile modes of thinking, and true connection to classical thought of the past. Allan Bloom's Book, The Closing of the American Mind, though written in the 80s and addressing university education, can easily be applied to modern secular primary and secondary schools.

Wonderful post! I agree with you 100%. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but I sometimes think that MTV is used as a type of mind control. Look at how the youth conform to the culture it puts forth! It is terrible. As someone who does want to one day become a teacher, I hope that there will be some change in how things are taught. I would love to see more humanities in schools. The problem also lies with parents. I've heard horror stories from my friend's mother who teaches at the middle school I went to. Parents only care about test scores and if their child is struggling in class, then they blame it on the teacher. One story comes to mind when a parent came into the school one day with all the artwork (very well done I should add) their child made in art class. They threw it on the floor and said that they didn't want their child to waste their time on "useless things like art." It is unfortunate what our culture is coming to. Children need to be challenged intellectually and should actually be allowed to think and question things. However, the MTV culture kids don't want anything to do with that and parents don't see such things as important.

What was it about the art that upset the parent? That it was too intellectual, or not intellectual enough? It sounds to me more like the parent may have been obsessed with "practical" subjects like math and science. This seems a totally different concern from that of the "MTV" culture, which is interested neither in art nor science, but only superficial celebrity culture.
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« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2011, 12:13:13 AM »

I went to public school because my parents couldn't afford to send me to private school.

I will chime in hear as a Public School teacher. I see what happens in the schools from day to day and I deeply concerned. My concern is not over the effort put forth by teachers. My concern is not over the work administrators do to help support learning in the classroom. My biggest concern is the effect that the philosophy of secular humanism is having in the classroom. It creates an environment where it is difficult to have a meaningful teacher-student relationships in which teachers can serve as ethical/moral role models. It keeps students from asking the ultimate and meaningful questions because the slothful and intellectually lazy philosophies of subjectivism, relativism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, and materialism rule the day. I think that perhaps the greatest reason that there is a higher level of success in parochial schools is the rejection of such infantile modes of thinking, and true connection to classical thought of the past. Allan Bloom's Book, The Closing of the American Mind, though written in the 80s and addressing university education, can easily be applied to modern secular primary and secondary schools.

Wonderful post! I agree with you 100%. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but I sometimes think that MTV is used as a type of mind control. Look at how the youth conform to the culture it puts forth! It is terrible. As someone who does want to one day become a teacher, I hope that there will be some change in how things are taught. I would love to see more humanities in schools. The problem also lies with parents. I've heard horror stories from my friend's mother who teaches at the middle school I went to. Parents only care about test scores and if their child is struggling in class, then they blame it on the teacher. One story comes to mind when a parent came into the school one day with all the artwork (very well done I should add) their child made in art class. They threw it on the floor and said that they didn't want their child to waste their time on "useless things like art." It is unfortunate what our culture is coming to. Children need to be challenged intellectually and should actually be allowed to think and question things. However, the MTV culture kids don't want anything to do with that and parents don't see such things as important.

What was it about the art that upset the parent? That it was too intellectual, or not intellectual enough? It sounds to me more like the parent may have been obsessed with "practical" subjects like math and science. This seems a totally different concern from that of the "MTV" culture, which is interested neither in art nor science, but only superficial celebrity culture.

Sorry, I was jumping from one thought to another. The parent was only concerned with the "core" classes and didn't care much for anything that really enriches a child's mind. I'm saying that the problems happening in public schools are twofold, disinterest in academics from "MTV" culture youth and parents who make things extremely difficult for teachers.
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« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2011, 12:30:50 AM »

I went to public school because my parents couldn't afford to send me to private school.

I will chime in hear as a Public School teacher. I see what happens in the schools from day to day and I deeply concerned. My concern is not over the effort put forth by teachers. My concern is not over the work administrators do to help support learning in the classroom. My biggest concern is the effect that the philosophy of secular humanism is having in the classroom. It creates an environment where it is difficult to have a meaningful teacher-student relationships in which teachers can serve as ethical/moral role models. It keeps students from asking the ultimate and meaningful questions because the slothful and intellectually lazy philosophies of subjectivism, relativism, pragmatism, utilitarianism, and materialism rule the day. I think that perhaps the greatest reason that there is a higher level of success in parochial schools is the rejection of such infantile modes of thinking, and true connection to classical thought of the past. Allan Bloom's Book, The Closing of the American Mind, though written in the 80s and addressing university education, can easily be applied to modern secular primary and secondary schools.

Wonderful post! I agree with you 100%. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but I sometimes think that MTV is used as a type of mind control. Look at how the youth conform to the culture it puts forth! It is terrible. As someone who does want to one day become a teacher, I hope that there will be some change in how things are taught. I would love to see more humanities in schools. The problem also lies with parents. I've heard horror stories from my friend's mother who teaches at the middle school I went to. Parents only care about test scores and if their child is struggling in class, then they blame it on the teacher. One story comes to mind when a parent came into the school one day with all the artwork (very well done I should add) their child made in art class. They threw it on the floor and said that they didn't want their child to waste their time on "useless things like art." It is unfortunate what our culture is coming to. Children need to be challenged intellectually and should actually be allowed to think and question things. However, the MTV culture kids don't want anything to do with that and parents don't see such things as important.

What was it about the art that upset the parent? That it was too intellectual, or not intellectual enough? It sounds to me more like the parent may have been obsessed with "practical" subjects like math and science. This seems a totally different concern from that of the "MTV" culture, which is interested neither in art nor science, but only superficial celebrity culture.

Sorry, I was jumping from one thought to another. The parent was only concerned with the "core" classes and didn't care much for anything that really enriches a child's mind. I'm saying that the problems happening in public schools are twofold, disinterest in academics from "MTV" culture youth and parents who make things extremely difficult for teachers.

I see.

My own thoughts on this subject are that, yes there are problems with public schools; there's nothing wrong with homeschooling in principle, provided the kids get some experience socializing; but also perhaps kids can be sent to public school, with their parents filling in notable gaps in their education, while perhaps correcting some errors that they acquire from their teachers. I know a priest at St Markella's with lots of kids that have all gone to the local public school, but he seems to have done a good job raising them as Orthodox Christians; they haven't gone off to new age colonies or anything (at least, not yet).
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« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2011, 01:06:33 AM »

I definitely would not join a cult like the Amish nor praise their anti social behavior as virtuous.

Yah, I live in Pennsylvania, and I know all about the Amish cult. For those who don't believe me, just watch this short documentary on the amish, and you will understand. Thank you.

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