OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 29, 2014, 07:26:20 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why do Christians put their children in public school?  (Read 3871 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,108


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« on: June 13, 2011, 11:07:48 AM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

Thanks!
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2011, 11:35:49 AM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

Thanks!

What makes you believe the events described in Revelation are 1. literal and 2. currently going on--with the Antichrist in charge now?

Christians not only had dealings with the government of pagan Rome which persecuted Christians, the government under which St. John wrote Revelation, but several of them were governmental officials and soldiers. They followed orders to the extent that they did not violate God's laws, but they were not so paranoid and confused as to assume that the government was the enemy. The real enemy is a spiritual one, one who attacks us first through our own passions. No one, not Satan, not the Antichrist, can force us to damnation against our will.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2011, 11:50:32 AM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

Thanks!
Because most people assume the public school system is meant to help children (in short, ignorance) In reality, it uses Prussian brainwashing techniques, destroys the ability to think, and annihilates or severely weakens religious faith.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2011, 12:00:22 PM »

Most Christians I know send their kids to private/Christian schools, or they would if they had the financial means. Not because they're scared of the Antichrist, but because generally American public schools really aren't very good and the morals of public school environments are largely in the toilet. At least anecdotally, I can see clear differences between my siblings, who went to Christian schools, and my same-age cousins who attended public schools.

But for lots of people (including my relatives) they were not able to pay their local school taxes in addition to private school tuition. If we had more of a voucher system, it would be better, but for now private schoolers must pay twice for their education.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 12:01:07 PM by bogdan » Logged
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2011, 12:09:03 PM »

Most Christians I know send their kids to private/Christian schools, or they would if they had the financial means. Not because they're scared of the Antichrist, but because generally American public schools really aren't very good and the morals of public school environments are largely in the toilet. At least anecdotally, I can see clear differences between my siblings, who went to Christian schools, and my same-age cousins who attended public schools.

But for lots of people (including my relatives) they were not able to pay their local school taxes in addition to private school tuition. If we had more of a voucher system, it would be better, but for now private schoolers must pay twice for their education.
Exactly. Now, we are not 100% sure on what everything in Revelation means, and I am certainly not going to keep my children from doing anything related to the government (playing on a DHS league, addressing envelopes for their local Senator/governor/mayor if they feel so inclined) because of it (unless there is a bigger reason).

I would just not choose public schools because it doesn't seem good for them academically (of course, there are exceptions). I went to a rather large Catholic high school, and it was just a smaller scale of public schools on the social end, plus a better education, plus religion in the classrooms. It has nothing to do with the Antichrist.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 12:09:26 PM by IsmiLiora » Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 12:14:21 PM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

Thanks!
Because most people assume the public school system is meant to help children (in short, ignorance) In reality, it uses Prussian brainwashing techniques, destroys the ability to think, and annihilates or severely weakens religious faith.

I suppose it would depend on the individual public school or school district. I went to public school but was not brainwashed. Maybe others were, maybe it's different now. The district I'm most familiar with is definitionally challenged, equating tolerance with acceptance, and there are some other problems, but if one is aware of what is going on, it's not difficult to maintain faith. We're not quite to the point  of Soviet education.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 12:39:13 PM »

Ok, my take as a father.

My son goes to public school, but I did not. 2 main reasons:

1. I can not afford the private schooling in my area (dominated by the Falwell Empire)
2. personal family reason (I list this to assuage any arguements that the only reason is money, which it is not)

What I do is what I believe every responsible parent should do. Involve him/herself in the education of their children. We discuss what  he learns in school, his feelings on it, and I also make corrections concerning issues that I disagree with. I sit down and show him evidence of what the teacher is stating incorrectly, and reinforce what is being taught that I find correct. It actually brings us closer doing this.

I find that the hyper-emotionalism and lack of scholarship of the instructors is near sickening, which is why I stay on top of what my son learns. I also have put in him to "seek the source" of what is being said. Check on what the teachers teach, and also check up on what I have taught him. I want him to know what he knows, not because of what someone else taught him, but because he went out and verified it himself.

The biggest reason is (ok, so actually a third reason) is because the private education instructors practicing in my area all went to the same school,a school which I have enormus disdain for. I find their lack of proof for their claims, their character, intellectual honesty, and the ability of the graduates to be severely lacking.

NOTE: By my post, I'm sure you can figure out the school with some research Smiley

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 12:43:58 PM »

Ok, my take as a father.

My son goes to public school, but I did not. 2 main reasons:

1. I can not afford the private schooling in my area (dominated by the Falwell Empire)
2. personal family reason (I list this to assuage any arguements that the only reason is money, which it is not)

What I do is what I believe every responsible parent should do. Involve him/herself in the education of their children. We discuss what  he learns in school, his feelings on it, and I also make corrections concerning issues that I disagree with. I sit down and show him evidence of what the teacher is stating incorrectly, and reinforce what is being taught that I find correct. It actually brings us closer doing this.

I find that the hyper-emotionalism and lack of scholarship of the instructors is near sickening, which is why I stay on top of what my son learns. I also have put in him to "seek the source" of what is being said. Check on what the teachers teach, and also check up on what I have taught him. I want him to know what he knows, not because of what someone else taught him, but because he went out and verified it himself.

The biggest reason is (ok, so actually a third reason) is because the private education instructors practicing in my area all went to the same school,a school which I have enormus disdain for. I find their lack of proof for their claims, their character, intellectual honesty, and the ability of the graduates to be severely lacking.

NOTE: By my post, I'm sure you can figure out the school with some research Smiley

primuspilus

Excellent reply and method. This is what I would do.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,220



« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2011, 12:46:38 PM »

Ok, my take as a father.

My son goes to public school, but I did not. 2 main reasons:

1. I can not afford the private schooling in my area (dominated by the Falwell Empire)
2. personal family reason (I list this to assuage any arguements that the only reason is money, which it is not)

What I do is what I believe every responsible parent should do. Involve him/herself in the education of their children. We discuss what  he learns in school, his feelings on it, and I also make corrections concerning issues that I disagree with. I sit down and show him evidence of what the teacher is stating incorrectly, and reinforce what is being taught that I find correct. It actually brings us closer doing this.

I find that the hyper-emotionalism and lack of scholarship of the instructors is near sickening, which is why I stay on top of what my son learns. I also have put in him to "seek the source" of what is being said. Check on what the teachers teach, and also check up on what I have taught him. I want him to know what he knows, not because of what someone else taught him, but because he went out and verified it himself.

The biggest reason is (ok, so actually a third reason) is because the private education instructors practicing in my area all went to the same school,a school which I have enormus disdain for. I find their lack of proof for their claims, their character, intellectual honesty, and the ability of the graduates to be severely lacking.

NOTE: By my post, I'm sure you can figure out the school with some research Smiley

primuspilus
I think I know what school you're talking about. Wink I laud you for taking an interest in your children's education. If more parents would have done likewise perhaps public education wouldn't be in such a deplorable state. I know I myself barely escaped the public school system with my faith in tact. Of course the risk can be similar in private schools, too.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2011, 02:38:26 PM »

Much of the reason may be ignorance, but, unfortunately, another reason parents may place their children at risk, and their future, at risk, by sending them to public schools, is apathy.

The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.

If there's anyone in the Texas area who is homeschooling, please get in touch with me and I can give information regarding other Orthodox homeschoolers, their yahoogroup in Central Texas, and so forth and so on.

Another good option are church schools, such as St. Peter's school program in Fort Worth, where the children get a classical education. I hear good things about their program. Another model program is St. Basil's Academy by St. Silouan's ROCOR church in Walla Walla, Washington: http://saintbasilacademy.net/

I know it is a bit off-topic, but one more thing parents must protect their children from, in this day and age, is sexual molestation by TSA agents in American airports. In certain airports, and their number is increasing, children must either be placed in backscatter radiation devices, which is a health risk according to physicians who were asked to evaluate the program by TSA itself (the TSA lied and covered up the risks as identified, but some of the physicians have spoken out) or be subjected to groping procedures to their private areas, hands under the pants or diaper, with groping of genitals and insertion of fingers, actions which are criminal in most states, not to mention repugnant to the law of God. If you tell your child not to let strangers touch him or her in his or her private place, don't put the lie to your own words by turning around and letting a TSA criminal sexually assault your child. You will have to answer for that crime, before God. For now, you can take alternate transportation, although TSA is manouevring to apply these criminal procedures at public schools and to travellers by bus, train, and public highways. So "Well, just don't fly!" is not going to ultimately work, and is a naive non-solution to the problem.
 
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 02:49:34 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Ok, my take as a father.

My son goes to public school, but I did not. 2 main reasons:

1. I can not afford the private schooling in my area (dominated by the Falwell Empire)
2. personal family reason (I list this to assuage any arguements that the only reason is money, which it is not)

What I do is what I believe every responsible parent should do. Involve him/herself in the education of their children. We discuss what  he learns in school, his feelings on it, and I also make corrections concerning issues that I disagree with. I sit down and show him evidence of what the teacher is stating incorrectly, and reinforce what is being taught that I find correct. It actually brings us closer doing this.

I find that the hyper-emotionalism and lack of scholarship of the instructors is near sickening, which is why I stay on top of what my son learns. I also have put in him to "seek the source" of what is being said. Check on what the teachers teach, and also check up on what I have taught him. I want him to know what he knows, not because of what someone else taught him, but because he went out and verified it himself.

The biggest reason is (ok, so actually a third reason) is because the private education instructors practicing in my area all went to the same school,a school which I have enormus disdain for. I find their lack of proof for their claims, their character, intellectual honesty, and the ability of the graduates to be severely lacking.

NOTE: By my post, I'm sure you can figure out the school with some research Smiley

primuspilus

Excellent reply and method. This is what I would do.
Indeed!

In my case, the shackles of my ex wife, the mother of the brothers, and her judicial enablers killed any chances of home schooling or private schools.  Fortunately, the schools are excellent in the suburbs, especially if you get involved.

If you get good communication on what is going on in school, go over it with your children (as I do) and exposure them to right thinking (i.e. the Church), it has the added benefit of innoculating against the crap they will come up against in the outside world.

When I taught in the inner city, I had parents who apologized for calling me about their kids.  I told them straight out quite the contrary, I prefer they did, as there are many, many whom I call and no one is home in more ways than one, and what can you do as a teacher with that?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2011, 02:51:28 PM »

It also helps that my son fears me like crazy and will tell me whats going on because he knows I'll find out anyways Smiley
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2011, 02:53:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.


As a public school teacher I disagree with you completely in regards to homeschooling.  Private schools, religious schools, these are more than appropriate alternatives to shabby public schooling HOWEVER homeschooling can be devestating to kids' social development, networking skills, coping mechanisms for stress, ability to shine under pressure etc etc.. Kids who are home schooled often are like the Buddha before he left his palace, and it backfires on parents who mistakenly believe they can shelter their kids from the world forever.  Newsflash people, it simply can't be done.  Our kids will grow up and carry on living in the world, just as we all do, just as Jesus Christ commissioned us all to be out in the world as He is in the world.  We may not be of the world, but we surely can't escape the reality that we are in remaining in the world.

Public schools are where people learn to become people, to make friends, to deal with enemies and adversity, to learn how to navigate beauracracies, to achieve public recognition at accomplishments, etc etc..  

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I agree that there are many evils in public schooling, but there are just as many virtues, this is because it is in the world, and all things in the world are this blend of good and bad.  There is no perfection in Earth aside from the Divine Mysteries, so lets all just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get back to work, we got millions of kids to raise into the future. After all, we are born naked and die naked, our material gains and intellectual pursuits are empty in this regard, the only real legacy God grants us on Earth are those of our children who as cliched as it is, are truly the future.  I am VERY disheartened by the amount of vitriolic backlash teachers have been getting lately at the pulpits, in the newspapers, around the water coolers, its really not fair for so many spectators to pundit around their misinformed two-cents as if it were the Gospel truth, its like my dear sweet grandmother taught me, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,022


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2011, 02:54:45 PM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

Thanks!
Because most people assume the public school system is meant to help children (in short, ignorance) In reality, it uses Prussian brainwashing techniques, destroys the ability to think, and annihilates or severely weakens religious faith.

I suppose it would depend on the individual public school or school district. I went to public school but was not brainwashed. Maybe others were, maybe it's different now. The district I'm most familiar with is definitionally challenged, equating tolerance with acceptance, and there are some other problems, but if one is aware of what is going on, it's not difficult to maintain faith. We're not quite to the point  of Soviet education.

Amen. Accessible public education in the United States is why the peasantry of Europe had the opportunity to move to a new environment and beyond living a life under tyranny as a permanently undereducated underclass as subsistence farmers, woodsmen, fisherman, coal miners etc.... If the ruling classes of the 19th century America had figured out how disdain for educating the masses could 'keep them in their place', we would be far more of an oligarchy than we are now.

It is ironic that their great grandchildren are presiding over, or just plain ignoring by their indifference, the destruction of the one force that enabled that exception and unique ladder of opportunity to fashion the modern American experience - free and quality public education for all Americans.

Neither public nor religious sponsored primary, secondary or higher education is intrinsically good or bad. Parental apathy and lack of involvement in your children's lives is always a bad thing.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2011, 03:03:15 PM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

I think the reason is pretty clear: They're in league with the Anti-Christ.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2011, 03:10:55 PM »

Quote
Parental apathy and lack of involvement in your children's lives is always a bad thing


Thats why my boy fears me...that and the beating sticks on the wall..... Cool

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
genesisone
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,454



« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2011, 03:13:21 PM »

Neither public nor religious sponsored primary, secondary or higher education is intrinsically good or bad. Parental apathy and lack of involvement in your children's lives is always a bad thing.
This is very true. Parents are responsible for their children's education. In most cases, they delegate part of that responsibility to a school system. That's fine as long as they are supportive of the school to which they have chosen to send their children.

I retired from teaching in the public school system two years ago. Many of the problems there are the result of over-bureaucracy - too many administrators who try to be in charge, leaving teachers bewildered about what their job really is. Another source of problems is that of the parents who don't understand their responsibilities as parents.

Home schooling, public schooling, private schooling - I've seen children educated in all these ways. Sometimes well done, other times poorly. Parents must choose, and they must stand by their choices.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2011, 09:48:23 AM »

it all comes down to responsibility. Parents need to be involved in their kid's lives, schooling, friends, etc.

If they're not, there's only one person to blame when your kid cant read his/her own high school diploma (3 people I graduated with could not read the whole thing).

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
genesisone
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,454



« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2011, 10:20:58 AM »

it all comes down to responsibility. Parents need to be involved in their kid's lives, schooling, friends, etc.

If they're not, there's only one person to blame when your kid cant read his/her own high school diploma (3 people I graduated with could not read the whole thing).

primuspilus
I added the emphasis to the quote. You know I agree entirely with your stance. However, you perhaps unwittingly made a very good point that in our society all too often there is just one parent involved in the process - and that may be due to a single parent household, or to conflict of one sort or another between two parents in the household. Any failure in the public school system is sadly only one symptom of the lack of responsibility shown by adults in our society.
Logged
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2011, 10:36:26 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I have to disagree with you a little.  In general, lack of funding is not the issue.  Look at the state of New Jersey.  The problem is that the funding doesn't make it to the class room.  Let's be honest, school administration is a great club to be in.  There are also schools that have world class athletic facilities and the first graders are given iPads, but the kids can't pass math tests.  Lack of parent involvement is a huge problem though. 

----

As to the idea of being brainwashed in public schools... while I certainly had a few teachers that pushed their pet agendas, almost all of my childhood brainwashing took place at church.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2011, 11:42:30 AM »

Quote
The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding

Sorry, funding has nothing to do with it. We've been throwing more and more and more money at schools and getting worse results.

Throwing money at something never fixes the problem.....just ask Europe.

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2011, 12:54:21 PM »

I am friends with many well-adjusted homeschooled students, so I don't think homseshooling is any worse an option as public or private schooling. It really depends on the individual situation. I have also been in contact with a virtual charter school which is not true homeschooling, but is done at home through the Internet with state-certified teachers. There are maladjusted homeschooled children, and there are maladjusted private and public schooled children. The system is not perfect, parental involvement is not optimal, not all solutions work for all students.

I realize this is an impassioned subject, especially for those in public education. I don't believe there are any large-scale solutions which would be panaceas. I think what may be one of the major issues with public education is that there is no unified vision. Every district, and sometimes every school, has its own ideas. Funding comes in at three different levels--federal, state, and district, and is not consistent, and depends heavily on the wealth of the locality. Also, there is the politicization of public education, which is a topic I will not go into here. I would much rather see public, private and homeshooling work together, but I would not want either subverted because I think that all three serve a need.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2011, 02:10:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I realize this is an impassioned subject, especially for those in public education. I don't believe there are any large-scale solutions which would be panaceas. I think what may be one of the major issues with public education is that there is no unified vision.

Amen! I agree completely, if anything attempting at various statewide or nationwide panaceas of the recent past have been more so the problem than the solution! A major problem with US public education is that its an unimaginably large machine.  It needs to be splintered off at several fundamental levels to allow schools and districts to develop strategies that are tailored to the needs of those specific schools.  There is no one size fits all solution to the diverse, varying and even contradicting needs of public education.  After all, it is a social institution involving tens of millions of people, obviously there are many different needs.

My beef is that there is more partisanship and division in regards to public education reform than unity and cohesion, until we all begin to agree on where to start, how can we expect to reach the summit? Meanwhile, EVERY SINGLE day we waste skylarking and kicking the can down the road, we waste the potential of these millions of kids.  Lord have His Mercy, it just takes ONE bad school year to negatively impact a student's entire life!  We need to be much more careful, considerate, and involved.  Teachers like myself should not suppose we could lord over the parents simply because we're in the trenches, but parents and the community shouldn't be so smug as to assume that we teachers will continue day in and day out to make ALL the sacrifices.  There has to be a mutual equality, we have to share these loads together, as we in Rastafari say, "Many hands make the work light."

Its only my faith in God that keeps me through each day, otherwise I'd probably be a nihilist its so disheartening, frightening even!  Y'all couldn't imagine Sad

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,378


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2011, 02:39:48 PM »

Since in Revelation the governments will be under the Anti-Christ, and the schools are under the government, why would Christians ever allow their children to attend public schools?

Thanks!

And you know your interpretation of the book of Revelation is correct HOW?

Why would I send my children to Public School? Because most of the parochial schools in the area do not hire teachers with four year degrees. Because Private school is expensive. Because I happen to live in a state that has the best public education in the country, and private education isn't that great. And because I know I would not have the patience to Home school my children. (God bless the parents who do!)

I believe if you give your children a solid foundation of faith, they can get through public education just fine.

How do I know this works? Because this is what my parents did for me, and their parents did for them.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2011, 02:44:44 PM »

Quote
I believe if you give your children a solid foundation of faith, they can get through public education just fine.

I agree and also i would add that if you give your kids strong confidence and support they can get through anything just fine.
_____________________

Kids have to live in this world, better they deal with it early rather than be a shocker later when there not prepared for it.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 02:45:42 PM by Poppy » Logged
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,205



« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 02:53:58 PM »

I am a school teacher. I assure you that neither myself, nor my colleagues (I'm quite certain), are brainwashing anyone. Trying to work against a media and commercial culture that teaches immorality, narcissism, disrespect, and apathy, yes. But brainwashing, no.

Smaller class sizes would go very far in supporting student success. IMO one of the main problems, at least here in Canada, is that more and more money goes into needless military spending and operations overseas while more important things (healthcare, medical facilities, and schools) are left under-funded.

Also, most parents are far too busy trying to make ends meet and get job promotions, and are rarely involved enough in their kids' education. My wife and I will put our son into Public Education - we both work in it and ultimately believe in it, even though it of course has its shortcomings - but we will never both work full-time and will always pay close attention to what is going on in his classrooms.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 02:55:58 PM by stavros_388 » Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,022


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 03:09:17 PM »

I am a school teacher. I assure you that neither myself, nor my colleagues (I'm quite certain), are brainwashing anyone. Trying to work against a media and commercial culture that teaches immorality, narcissism, disrespect, and apathy, yes. But brainwashing, no.

Smaller class sizes would go very far in supporting student success. IMO one of the main problems, at least here in Canada, is that more and more money goes into needless military spending and operations overseas while more important things (healthcare, medical facilities, and schools) are left under-funded.



Isn't it ironic that one of the largest and most influential media companies in the world pushes a news agenda designed to fire people up about cultural collapse, culture wars, 'brainwashing in public schools' and so on but is the biggest purveyor of cultural garbage by its entertainment divisions as referenced by stavros in his post?
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 03:47:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am a school teacher. I assure you that neither myself, nor my colleagues (I'm quite certain), are brainwashing anyone. Trying to work against a media and commercial culture that teaches immorality, narcissism, disrespect, and apathy, yes. But brainwashing, no.

Smaller class sizes would go very far in supporting student success. IMO one of the main problems, at least here in Canada, is that more and more money goes into needless military spending and operations overseas while more important things (healthcare, medical facilities, and schools) are left under-funded.



Isn't it ironic that one of the largest and most influential media companies in the world pushes a news agenda designed to fire people up about cultural collapse, culture wars, 'brainwashing in public schools' and so on but is the biggest purveyor of cultural garbage by its entertainment divisions as referenced by stavros in his post?

Amen amen! Nothing is ironic about the Babylonian fallacy world we've been living in for thousands of years, its all strategically calculated.

 I must admit that as a teacher, the public education system (at least here in California) IS EXACTLY trying to brainwash kids to accept certain socially unjust realities of our society such as poverty, greed, selfishness, apathy, willful ignorance, exclusionary partisanship, perpetuation of the racist super-structure of American culture etc etc.  It is deeply imbedded in the curriculum, in the text books, even subliminally snuck into the very atmosphere and environment of school culture. However, we should not blame the teachers entirely on this, it is not our fault.  We deal with what we have.  We have a job to do just like the rest of us adults living in the real world of mouths to feed and bills to pay.  

How many of us adults work for scandalous and greedy corporations that exploit and fleece the peoples of the world, ourselves included?

 How many of us work for corrupt and inept government institutions?

How many of us spend our resources on a self-defeating materialist, consumerist driven market economy which is fundamentally dedicated to excessive living to maintain just the status quo?

Orthodox teaches us that ALL THIS WORLD is corrupt and evil, but that the Kingdom of God is ever at hand and present in the midst of Christian peoples.  So we go to work and do our jobs not because they are morally or spiritually good jobs, but rather because we are trying through our faithful and prayerful effort to day by day convert the sins of the world to virtues, on day and one person at a time Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 03:49:16 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2011, 05:23:27 PM »

From what I have seen as a journalist covering the local school district and sitting through many hours of school board meetings, in most situations, teachers are not in control of what they teach. They are given a certain curriculum. They may have some influence on it, but it seems to me that it is pre-formed by a kind of educational intelligentsia influenced by certain philosophies, some of which are in opposition to each other. Members of this group often have little contact with the students' parents or the world at large, so they have no reason to question their ideas. This gives rise to several strange events and moral outrages popping up from public schools globally from time to time, often due to the wishy-washiness of administrators who fear angry unions on one side and angry mobs of parents or citizens on the other, together with lawsuits. It's a complete mess. I don't know at what point things started becoming a mess, there are so many factors causing trouble.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,108


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2011, 11:08:56 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.


As a public school teacher I disagree with you completely in regards to homeschooling.  Private schools, religious schools, these are more than appropriate alternatives to shabby public schooling HOWEVER homeschooling can be devestating to kids' social development, networking skills, coping mechanisms for stress, ability to shine under pressure etc etc.. Kids who are home schooled often are like the Buddha before he left his palace, and it backfires on parents who mistakenly believe they can shelter their kids from the world forever.  Newsflash people, it simply can't be done.  Our kids will grow up and carry on living in the world, just as we all do, just as Jesus Christ commissioned us all to be out in the world as He is in the world.  We may not be of the world, but we surely can't escape the reality that we are in remaining in the world.

Public schools are where people learn to become people, to make friends, to deal with enemies and adversity, to learn how to navigate beauracracies, to achieve public recognition at accomplishments, etc etc..  

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I agree that there are many evils in public schooling, but there are just as many virtues, this is because it is in the world, and all things in the world are this blend of good and bad.  There is no perfection in Earth aside from the Divine Mysteries, so lets all just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get back to work, we got millions of kids to raise into the future. After all, we are born naked and die naked, our material gains and intellectual pursuits are empty in this regard, the only real legacy God grants us on Earth are those of our children who as cliched as it is, are truly the future.  I am VERY disheartened by the amount of vitriolic backlash teachers have been getting lately at the pulpits, in the newspapers, around the water coolers, its really not fair for so many spectators to pundit around their misinformed two-cents as if it were the Gospel truth, its like my dear sweet grandmother taught me, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.

My kids are schooled at home.  We have group meets with other children in the same situation.  Their social development is fine.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2011, 11:23:32 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The advantages of homeschooling are tremendous. What an advantage, academically, socially, and above all spiritually, for those children! I only wish that I had been provided with such privilege, such a blessing, by my parents. But back in those days it was widely believed that public school would result in the most benefits for a child. Live and learn.


As a public school teacher I disagree with you completely in regards to homeschooling.  Private schools, religious schools, these are more than appropriate alternatives to shabby public schooling HOWEVER homeschooling can be devestating to kids' social development, networking skills, coping mechanisms for stress, ability to shine under pressure etc etc.. Kids who are home schooled often are like the Buddha before he left his palace, and it backfires on parents who mistakenly believe they can shelter their kids from the world forever.  Newsflash people, it simply can't be done.  Our kids will grow up and carry on living in the world, just as we all do, just as Jesus Christ commissioned us all to be out in the world as He is in the world.  We may not be of the world, but we surely can't escape the reality that we are in remaining in the world.

Public schools are where people learn to become people, to make friends, to deal with enemies and adversity, to learn how to navigate beauracracies, to achieve public recognition at accomplishments, etc etc..  

The real issue with public schools is a lack of parent involvement and funding.  The WHOLE country seems to be stacked up against public schools, what do we then expect from them? Teachers like myself are literally expected to make a hundred miracles a day, but when people don't have faith or support in us, what can we honestly do?  Further, the laws and political structure of most states has made if an imprisonable offense for truancy (a policy I disagree with by the way) so we are hamstrung here, kids are OBLIGATED to go to school and yet the school isn't supported enough by the community to fulfill its mandated role.  Its a catch 22-22...

I agree that there are many evils in public schooling, but there are just as many virtues, this is because it is in the world, and all things in the world are this blend of good and bad.  There is no perfection in Earth aside from the Divine Mysteries, so lets all just pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get back to work, we got millions of kids to raise into the future. After all, we are born naked and die naked, our material gains and intellectual pursuits are empty in this regard, the only real legacy God grants us on Earth are those of our children who as cliched as it is, are truly the future.  I am VERY disheartened by the amount of vitriolic backlash teachers have been getting lately at the pulpits, in the newspapers, around the water coolers, its really not fair for so many spectators to pundit around their misinformed two-cents as if it were the Gospel truth, its like my dear sweet grandmother taught me, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!"

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.
That's a gross exaggeration and appeal to raw emotion that has no place in a rational discussion of this issue.

My kids are schooled at home.  We have group meets with other children in the same situation.  Their social development is fine.
Well, if it works for you, great!
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2011, 12:36:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior jesus Christ!


I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.

My kids are schooled at home.  We have group meets with other children in the same situation.  Their social development is fine.



I don't mean to  be disrespectful, but I have also known quite a few folks from home school background and trust me my brother, you can't shelter your kids from the world as hard as you try.  If anything, it has from my experience, often had a tendency to backfire and create an even MORE rebellious in some kids when they grow up away from their parents' aprons.. Your daughter is 10 years old, its is far easier to control every aspect of a younger child's life than older, what happens when she is 14 or 15? Do you believe you can maintain that same level of discipline and involvement when she asserts herself more and more? I work with hundreds of kids a day at that age, believe me they are quite assertive Wink Further, would you prefer to have to if need be become more controlling rather than letting your daughter grow into her own person, under the guidance and influence of your miraculously good parenting rather then your forceful dictatorship?

By the, so your kids  won't read books, or watch TV/movies, or listen to the radio? What about Facebook or twitter? Even the Great FireWall of China can't keep out Western immorality, what makes you so smug? 

I applaud your effort, and it is not homeschooling that will save your kids, but simply your amount of attention and effort in their lives.  I assure you as a teacher, that if you gave your kids the exact same amount of priority and effort and they went to public school they'd but just as fine, but I would argue from my own bias that I feel they would actually be better socially adjusted, be  more realistic and grounded in their Faith (having faced actual adversity rather then having been sheltered in a religious monoculture), and also be better able to adjust to the demands of adult life like networking, paying bills, and making friends of strangers. I say this not only as a highschool teacher, but also a youth minister in my Parish who is very much concerned with the spiritual and religious growth and development of our kids.

School is full of evil, but so is the world. We couldn't escape this.  The demons followed Saint Anthony even in the isolation of the desert caves Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
genesisone
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,454



« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2011, 12:36:30 PM »

I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.
That's a gross exaggeration and appeal to raw emotion that has no place in a rational discussion of this issue.
Gross, yes; exaggeration, no, unfortunately. Of course a public school is only one place where those things are learned. Television, the internet, even your local shopping mall offer instruction in these things. Parenting isn't easy.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2011, 12:55:36 PM »

Teachers still have a lot of freedom, most are just lazy and don't ask questions.

I am currently being certified in Secondary Social Sciences (Middle and High School History, Government and Geography). I know that at least in Missouri there are educational landmarks that you have to hit; certain comprehensive concepts that they have to demonstrate knowledge of by the end of the course.

Even if the school has textbooks for your classes, you don't have to touch them. You can build your own curricula and create your own examinations. Only the lazy teachers go through the textbook chapter by chapter, section by section, using the standard issued textbook exams as the means of assessment.

There's a lot of paranoia on here about some elite intelligencia in dark smoky rooms working to brainwash our children, but the simple fact of the matter is that teachers are seldom monitored and as long as your students are able to demonstrate a comprehensive knowledge and perform on some of the standardized tests the states force them to take, you can pretty much couch the information in whatever context that you wish.

I'm not knocking private and home schools at all. Not one bit. But all the whining about public schools is not necessarily warranted. There is not some blanket identity that every school, every district in every region and state all conforms to. Every single classroom is different, and they're not all full of students who want to corrupt your children and teach them about dildos and black tar heroine. If you train them up right and monitor their friendships and media content, they'll be fine. Part of growing up is learning how to function in the world. Children become adults with free will, and to try to shelter them from their freedom to reject God is only to delude them. If they end up apostatizing or something, that's not on the parents if they've done their best to teach them to love prayer and God with all of their hearts. You've got to begin the inoculation process to the world's BS at some point, and if you throw them into the world unprepared they'll either end up being so sheltered that they are ineffective at interacting with the culture at large, or they'll lose it once they get a taste and they'll never look back.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 12:57:15 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2011, 01:29:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Teachers still have a lot of freedom, most are just lazy and don't ask questions.

I am currently being certified in Secondary Social Sciences (Middle and High School History, Government and Geography). I know that at least in Missouri there are educational landmarks that you have to hit; certain comprehensive concepts that they have to demonstrate knowledge of by the end of the course.

Even if the school has textbooks for your classes, you don't have to touch them. You can build your own curricula and create your own examinations. Only the lazy teachers go through the textbook chapter by chapter, section by section, using the standard issued textbook exams as the means of assessment.

There's a lot of paranoia on here about some elite intelligencia in dark smoky rooms working to brainwash our children, but the simple fact of the matter is that teachers are seldom monitored and as long as your students are able to demonstrate a comprehensive knowledge and perform on some of the standardized tests the states force them to take, you can pretty much couch the information in whatever context that you wish.

I'm not knocking private and home schools at all. Not one bit. But all the whining about public schools is not necessarily warranted. There is not some blanket identity that every school, every district in every region and state all conforms to. Every single classroom is different, and they're not all full of students who want to corrupt your children and teach them about dildos and black tar heroine. If you train them up right and monitor their friendships and media content, they'll be fine. Part of growing up is learning how to function in the world. Children become adults with free will, and to try to shelter them from their freedom to reject God is only to delude them. If they end up apostatizing or something, that's not on the parents if they've done their best to teach them to love prayer and God with all of their hearts. You've got to begin the inoculation process to the world's BS at some point, and if you throw them into the world unprepared they'll either end up being so sheltered that they are ineffective at interacting with the culture at large, or they'll lose it once they get a taste and they'll never look back.

Amen Amen!

That has been one of my major points here.  School is about as evil as the world, and we as Christians know that we were not called by God to abandon or escape the world, but rather in His Grace and Love to cooperate with the Spirit to save the world.  Our kids are not victims, they are the future Apostles.  If we as parents, family, educators, friends, mentors, coaches, and even just background chatter raise our kids grounded in the sincerity of Faith but operating in the real world (the same place all of us have to live each dawning day) then they grow up to be just like us, Christians, rather than robots.  We can shelter our kids about as successfully as we can shelter ourselves..

Plus, I don't support homeschooling for several reasons.  Religiously, I think sheltering kids at homes gives them a shallow, untested Faith which is not based upon real life experience.  How can they see the miracles of God if they are not out experiencing them? How can they know for sure form experience that God will help them against all adversity and difficult situations if they've never had to face them on their own? Children are like us, they are smart and capable. If we teach them right, they will carry it with them, but if we are naive enough to think we can simply force it we will see it erupt later.

Further, schools (be they public or religious) are places where kids not only learn facts, they also learn to socialize, acclimatize and humanize to the real world they will inherently grow up and face, on their own.  At school kids learn to budget their finances, to make independent value decisions, to socialize and navigate our human society, to deal with opposition/disagreements/adversity in productive and healthy ways, to rise up to a challenge, to be rewarded and congratulated publicly, to celebrate and to mourn.  Also, from a religious perspective, sending our kids out into school in the real world gives them the opportunities to ask those deep, fundamental, soul searching questions that lead them to God more directly.  Even my nine-year old niece takes her Confession piously and drags her dad out of bad for Liturgy each Sunday precisely because she has learned the value of this religious culture from her experience at school with her friends who are not as pious.  My 10 year old nephew tells me things like, "You have to be quiet when in the museum, because then you can let the beauty of the art speak for itself." These are the kinds of valuable, real-life insights that kids learn on their own, navigating the real world. When we shelter our kids at home on their own, where will they get these kinds of tangible experiences on a daily basis?

I could easily agree with parents not appreciating public schooling, but then again, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and lock our kids up at home, as they will only learn to be clones of ourselves and our ideas, they will take longer adjust and grow and learn to be themselves and express their OWN Faith in God. 

Besides, don't y'all believe in God? Can't God be with our kids as much as He is with us? Isn't God able to carry them through the day, perilous as it may be, just as He carries each and everyone us through our daily grind?

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,205



« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2011, 04:10:32 PM »

Even if the school has textbooks for your classes, you don't have to touch them. You can build your own curricula and create your own examinations. Only the lazy teachers go through the textbook chapter by chapter, section by section, using the standard issued textbook exams as the means of assessment.

...There's a lot of paranoia on here about some elite intelligencia in dark smoky rooms working to brainwash our children, but the simple fact of the matter is that teachers are seldom monitored and as long as your students are able to demonstrate a comprehensive knowledge and perform on some of the standardized tests the states force them to take, you can pretty much couch the information in whatever context that you wish.

I have also found this to be true. Yes, curriculum must be met, but there is such a broad way that a teacher can meet a satisfactory amount of the curriculum expectations that the sky is just about the limit. Textbooks?! I've always chosen or created my own teaching materials. Textbooks would have made my last contract a lot easier, though! Smiley However, I have not come across any standardized textbooks yet. The teachers decide. In Canada, teaching critical literacy is strongly encouraged, too... That is, teaching students to question the motives behind different stories, articles, and texts, to try to see things from different perspectives, and to think for themselves. We also stress helping children to learn how to learn on their own, and to enjoy doing it, rather than to merely memorize what the teacher gives them and regurgitate it at test time.

Quote
Teachers still have a lot of freedom, most are just lazy and don't ask questions.

I haven't met too many of these lazy teachers you speak of. Maybe I've been lucky! Most of my colleagues have seemed very keen about constantly developing their skills and evaluating the efficacy of their teaching practices in the classroom. And most go out of their way to make their lessons interesting and relevant to the kids! Of course, I haven't been teaching in Canada for very long, so maybe my lenses are a little rose-tinted.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 04:13:52 PM by stavros_388 » Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,108


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2011, 04:14:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior jesus Christ!


I disagree. Public school is where you 10 year old daughter learns about group sex, Lady Gaga, and shaking her "thang" all over the place.

My kids are schooled at home.  We have group meets with other children in the same situation.  Their social development is fine.



I don't mean to  be disrespectful, but I have also known quite a few folks from home school background and trust me my brother, you can't shelter your kids from the world as hard as you try.  If anything, it has from my experience, often had a tendency to backfire and create an even MORE rebellious in some kids when they grow up away from their parents' aprons.. Your daughter is 10 years old, its is far easier to control every aspect of a younger child's life than older, what happens when she is 14 or 15? Do you believe you can maintain that same level of discipline and involvement when she asserts herself more and more? I work with hundreds of kids a day at that age, believe me they are quite assertive Wink Further, would you prefer to have to if need be become more controlling rather than letting your daughter grow into her own person, under the guidance and influence of your miraculously good parenting rather then your forceful dictatorship?

By the, so your kids  won't read books, or watch TV/movies, or listen to the radio? What about Facebook or twitter? Even the Great FireWall of China can't keep out Western immorality, what makes you so smug?  

I applaud your effort, and it is not homeschooling that will save your kids, but simply your amount of attention and effort in their lives.  I assure you as a teacher, that if you gave your kids the exact same amount of priority and effort and they went to public school they'd but just as fine, but I would argue from my own bias that I feel they would actually be better socially adjusted, be  more realistic and grounded in their Faith (having faced actual adversity rather then having been sheltered in a religious monoculture), and also be better able to adjust to the demands of adult life like networking, paying bills, and making friends of strangers. I say this not only as a highschool teacher, but also a youth minister in my Parish who is very much concerned with the spiritual and religious growth and development of our kids.

School is full of evil, but so is the world. We couldn't escape this.  The demons followed Saint Anthony even in the isolation of the desert caves Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Jesus said "The children of the world are evil", and "Be not of this world".

No, my children do not listen to the radio, watch TV, or play video games.

They read and they play outside.

No I do not believe that I shelter my children, as I "shelter" myself from the same thing.  Sheltering is merely keeping a child from even knowing the world at all.  I show my children the evil in main stream music, the suggestive nature of television, and how most of the media gives us anti-Christian representation.   Most of these devices we have promotes greed, lust, adultery, envy, gluttony, vanity, and narcissism.

Facebook in my opinion is a false reality of relationships and promotes narcissism.   God designed the world so that bonds between people can be left in the past.... Think of boyhood friends for instance.  Gone from my life, but legends in my mind.  I wish them the best, but talking again with them to "see what happens" leaves no mystery which is how God designed it.  Some don't see this as a big deal, and I don't see it as a huge deal.... But I'd rather bygones be bygones.   Communication with all my loved ones through a terminal where "I am in control", is not my idea of personal relations with people.  I disagree with Facebook personally.

When my daughter is 14-15 (she is really 12) we don't have to "maintain discipline".  She disciplines herself because she wasn't brainwashed by the media, TV, music, or public schooled children's evil that they spread.  She knows how to recognize evil.   Huge part why we affiliate with the Anabaptist Mennonites & Amish.   We are coming from the outside in, not inside out.

Watch the videos "Hollywoods war on God", "they sold their souls for rock and roll", and simply look up "lady gaga evil"... All mainstream stuff is generally centered around evil.  I haven't heard a song in a while about a "Christian family that lived long and happy together and died after a happy life".  Nor have I seen a movie like that.

Shelter is one thing... But we choose to turn away from evil.

This is something that the vast majority of public school children do not understand.  They embrace evil, strive for free will, and learn how to think as the school teaches them to think.

This is more about morality of society than public school BTW.

Public school issues:
 bans religious prayer, state approve curriculum, mandated vaccinations....

Political commentary removed.

Anyway, despite these issues, there isn't an issue that the BEAST system will occur through governments.   The public school system is part of the government.
 For posting political commentary on the public board of OC.net, you are being placed on post moderation for 30 days.  You may post as usual during this period, but every one of your entries will have to receive approval from a moderator before appearing on the board.  If you disagree with this moderation, please PM Fr George.

Pravoslavbob
Non-Religious Topics Moderator
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:27:32 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2011, 04:21:45 PM »

yeshua, I gotta agree in principle to what you're saying, although the shaking her thang is well...yeah....umm....

it really isnt the government's responsibility to educate our children, and I actually cant stand it. However, habte is also right in saying

Quote
you can't shelter your kids from the world as hard as you try

Believe me, she'll be an adult soon enough and be on her own and unfortunately, she will be curious. She might inquire as to things which she knew nothing about, and she might try it. Unfortunately, at that time, there will be nothing you can do about it.

However, you are a parent and so am I. I make it a point to NEVER tell someone else how to raise their kids. I'll just say God Bless you and I hope it works out.

primuspilus
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 04:24:36 PM by primuspilus » Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2011, 04:37:34 PM »

I attended a public high school and experienced non of this "brainwashing" that some say "goes on" in these places.  I was taught about good citizenship and responsibility as well as all the basics in reading, writing, and math.  I consider my time there to be a high mark in my life and have no regret or ill feeling about my experiences.  On the contrary, I do have a lot of negative experiences and unfond memories of my time in parochial grade school. 

All education, whether its public or private/religious is meant to "brainwash" children into accepting whatever social norms or dogmatic truths that the school is supposed to teach and the culture expects its youth to learn.  If public schools indoctrinate children into certain liberal ideas and concepts, its only because those things represent the norms which the majority of people in the society accept and expect to be passed on.  Likewise a religious or "homeschool" would teach the realities that the denomination or individual family would accept as valid to their youth.  It's all relative.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,372



« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2011, 04:47:17 PM »

It is inevitable that on any even vaguely conservative forum people are going to indulge themselves in outlandish rhetoric about public schools. How many of you even have school-aged kids anyway?

The reality is that you have to be more aware of the schools than that. My kids were fortunate in having, right out their back door, about as good a public elementary school as could be imagined. They had great teachers and a great staff, no problems, they learned really well. Middle school for my elder two was horrible: there were discipline problems from start to finish and for whatever reason they just couldn't get with the academic program, though for the most part they had excellent teachers. Now the eldest has just graduated and the second is hacking her way through high school. It's a far from perfect place: there are some discipline problems and some teacher problems, and both of them tell me about dubious things they are taught, which tells me that the critical thinking instruction they get from their parents is sticking!

Private school? We looked into it, but #1 got waitlisted at the local Episcopal school and we didn't even think of it for #2. The other local options were Quaker, RC, and SDA, all of which presented significant problems in religious instruction. At the high school level one runs into the problem that things start getting competitive.

Home schooling isn't for everyone, and it wasn't for us. You have to have the time, among other things; and among those other things has to be the willingness of your kids to take instruction from you. This has proven iffy with one and out of the question with the other.

With #3, all of this was completely out the window. We weren't prepared to teach a kid with Downs, nor was any private school. Only the public schools are prepared to teach kids like him.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,372



« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2011, 05:19:56 PM »

Speaks for itself.

At one time in America, the parents who had children attend school, pay for school.  That's it.  It wasn't the responsibility of the entire state to pay for it.  There was prayer in school and the curriculum was approved by a local board.

Not any more.  It's communist.

Well, they haven't started shooting the enemies of the state, so as far as that's concerned I hold it to be a major improvement over communism.

Anyway, perhaps it has escaped your attention that, as a rule, Amish kids don't get any education beyond 8th grade. After that they get put to work. There's really no place in their society for someone like me who taught himself algebra in 7th grade. Of course, there wasn't a place for me in the public schools either, but some are exceptional and some aren't; my problem at the point where I switched to private school was in the discipline problems, not in academics; and back in 1970 nobody seriously worried about indoctrination even in progressive Howard County, Maryland; they were too busy implementing stupid teaching innovations.

And back in the day, a lot of kids didn't attend school because they couldn't afford it or because their parents didn't care. If you were bright and poor and lucky, you might catch the eye of some wealthy benefactor who would see that you were taken care of. The main reason we have public schools is not because of the love of social engineering, but because people figured out that a nation of ignoramuses was not a good thing. It's too bad it didn't work.

And the real problem with localization is the inequity. You can see this all over the place in New England, where schools are largely by townships: even more than in most places it matters very much where you live, because between the places where they're too cheap to pay for decent schools and places where they couldn't pay for them if they wanted to, there are a lot of terrible schools. And you get the social engineers anyway. What you have to do, if the local school system is a problem, is get out the vote and get sensible people on the school board, and raise a stink if they appoint bad people.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »

We can take a good example from the cult of "Amish" who are anti modern, anti social, and anti truth.  I have never looked upon this pernicious sect of Anabaptist as some type of pillar of virtue and truth.  They are deluded and spiritually dead individuals. 


It is the way of all cults to be inward looking and to reject the common good of society in favor of their own schemes and ideals.  Why would we Christians who have the true faith seek to imitate them (And other cults) In any way?  Rather we should face the world boldly knowing that we have faith and to the pure, all things are pure.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2011, 09:00:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 ....
.....
..
.....
.... The public school system is part of the government.
I agree with the sentiments of your post, but I must confess that they are either miraculously idealistic or hopeless naive.  The rest of us in Orthodox live in the real world, we have jobs, we pay bills, and our kids have to go to school somewhere.  I agree completely with many of your moral and religious criticisms of public schools, I work there and I have a dozen more than any of you, but again its as I said, the whole world is Evil, and we live in this world, and God has commissioned us to live in it and spread His love by interacting.  We are not of this World, but we are in the World.  Jesus Christ prayed, "I am not asking that Thou should be taking them out of the world, but that Thou should be keeping them from the wicked one.. According as Thou did dispatch Me into the world, I also dispatch them into the world." It is fairly obvious that we all live in the world, the problems of the "world" are spiritual in nature, not just material or societal, its as I said, those same frightening demons followed Saint Anthony even into the deserts and the caves Sad

We can't escape it, but through the Grace of God we can rise above it, and hopefully be a process of the saving of others.  How can we selfishly hide away on not spread the Gospel to our fellow men.  Jesus Christ said He did not come for the just to repentence, but the sinners.  Monks and hermits in Orthodox do not merely escape the world, rather in their solitude they PRAY continually for the world, and we believe these prayers go a long way in their Universal impact.

So again, I personally believe that homeschooling is as bad thing for several reasons, and that if folks have such reasonable gripes about public schools (and I probably have more than y'all Wink ) then I pray earnestly that they consider religious schools.  This is because as I said before:

Quote

We can shelter our kids about as successfully as we can shelter ourselves..

Plus, I don't support homeschooling for several reasons.  Religiously, I think sheltering kids at homes gives them a shallow, untested Faith which is not based upon real life experience.  How can they see the miracles of God if they are not out experiencing them? How can they know for sure form experience that God will help them against all adversity and difficult situations if they've never had to face them on their own? Children are like us, they are smart and capable. If we teach them right, they will carry it with them, but if we are naive enough to think we can simply force it we will see it erupt later.

Further, schools (be they public or religious) are places where kids not only learn facts, they also learn to socialize, acclimatize and humanize to the real world they will inherently grow up and face, on their own.  At school kids learn to budget their finances, to make independent value decisions, to socialize and navigate our human society, to deal with opposition/disagreements/adversity in productive and healthy ways, to rise up to a challenge, to be rewarded and congratulated publicly, to celebrate and to mourn.  Also, from a religious perspective, sending our kids out into school in the real world gives them the opportunities to ask those deep, fundamental, soul searching questions that lead them to God more directly.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 09:06:05 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
genesisone
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,454



« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2011, 09:32:16 PM »

At one time in America, the parents who had children attend school, pay for school.  That's it.  It wasn't the responsibility of the entire state to pay for it.
On this point, I'm going to disagree with you. Our entire society benefits from having an educated population. I for one am glad that there are young people in school today who will become tomorrow's doctors, mechanics, computer technicians, accountants, etc.

Public education, unfortunately, seems to have a "one size fits all" mentality. That doesn't work. Parents must be given options in their quest to find the best education for their children.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2011, 09:30:20 AM »

Quote
It is inevitable that on any even vaguely conservative forum people are going to indulge themselves in outlandish rhetoric about public schools. How many of you even have school-aged kids anyway?

I do and I must (much to my chagrin) agree with the assessment of the public schooling. I hate the department of education and the lack luster job it does. I actually cant stand public education, but its here to stay and we have to make of it what we can.

I know the main reason my son had trouble in school wasnt because of spending, or the snazziest computers, or the "kewlest" curriculum available. it was because my son was lazy and had no dicipline, and had nothing to fear beccause the schools really cant instill that dicipline. So I did, and praise be to the Lord he'll probably make honor roll for the first time in his life (report cards are on the way as we speak). It comes down to the kids and the parents all in the end.

primuspilus
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.186 seconds with 72 queries.