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Author Topic: Why do the Orthodox need Catholics?  (Read 11273 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2011, 10:57:09 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
The Church, however, is Christ as "I AM," and He is not socially contructed nor culturally informed.
But the question in this case would be "which Church is Christ?" Unless you subscribe to the idea that there can be more than one Church (eg "Branch Theory"), then only one of them can be Christ. The existence of two or more separate bodies claiming to be the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" seems to me to make them ontologically different. One of them is Christ as experienced in the Community which forms His Body, the Church (which cannot be said to be devoid of social constructs since it is both a Divine and Human entity), and the others are social constructs which are just that.
Indeed!  And I believe that you, I, Father Ambrose and the Ecumenical Patriarch are agreed on the correct identity of which Church is Christ, which is based on the Rock, not social constructs (which it does, however, incorporate).
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« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2011, 11:45:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Patriarch Bartholomew:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."

 How do you understand the meaning of ontology in the context of His Holiness' speech?

I think Ontology is a better description than Theology or Christology, as essentially we have all been arguing the same points in differing languages and terms.  Just as the 5th century Fathers interpreted "Nature" in more elaborate terms than the 4th century Fathers, so to are there these ontological differences between Rome and Orthodox.  Vatican II may very well have made the breach more irreparable as any other time, because now we literally live different lives.  The Orthodox is a fasting, liturgical, calendar driven culture where as Rome is more political, celebratory, and popular reform oriented culture. The day to day lives in a Roman Catholic parish are radically different and unrecognizable as that of an Orthodox parish.  Our theology and Christology could be reconciled easily through dialogue, as we share far more than we diverge on, and realistically in these regards we have been more so misunderstanding each other then genuinely disagreeing.  However, the ontological, that is reality based differences are many.  We share different histories, different political ideologies, different geopolitical viewpoints, different calendars and even and entirely different approach to the calendar (for example not just the obvious New vs Old shift,  Rome has also been frequently moving holidays officially rather then trying to reanimate the original days which reflects a more flexible mindset then is usual in Orthodox in regards to the calendar, it seems that in Orthodox the calendar moves us, whereas in Rome the people move around the calendar), different styles of chanting and liturgical prayer, different views in regards to morality etc etc etc..This does not even begin to delve into the deeper aspects of Ontology such as metaphysical and existentialist philosophical differences.

These differences manifest an almost entirely separate understanding of how reality exists and operates between Orthodox and Rome.  This should not necessarily belittle or disregard Rome, rather just to point out we have differences.  I would not want to assess any kind of value judgment to these differences, because in truth there are some ontological aspects of the Catholic Church I agree with and some within Orthodox that I disagree with.  This may not necessarily be what His Holiness had in mind, this is just how I personally interpret the idea of ontological differences between Orthodox and Rome. I drew this especially from this aspect

Quote
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance,

In Orthodox we have different models of being and living our day to day realities from Rome, both in form and substance.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2011, 07:41:00 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The Church, however, is Christ as "I AM," and He is not socially contructed nor culturally informed.
But the question in this case would be "which Church is Christ?" Unless you subscribe to the idea that there can be more than one Church (eg "Branch Theory"), then only one of them can be Christ. The existence of two or more separate bodies claiming to be the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" seems to me to make them ontologically different. One of them is Christ as experienced in the Community which forms His Body, the Church (which cannot be said to be devoid of social constructs since it is both a Divine and Human entity), and the others are social constructs which are just that.
Indeed!  And I believe that you, I, Father Ambrose and the Ecumenical Patriarch are agreed on the correct identity of which Church is Christ,

Is that like an error-loves-company kind of thing?

 angel
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »

The Church, however, is Christ as "I AM," and He is not socially contructed nor culturally informed.
But the question in this case would be "which Church is Christ?" Unless you subscribe to the idea that there can be more than one Church (eg "Branch Theory"), then only one of them can be Christ. The existence of two or more separate bodies claiming to be the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" seems to me to make them ontologically different. One of them is Christ as experienced in the Community which forms His Body, the Church (which cannot be said to be devoid of social constructs since it is both a Divine and Human entity), and the others are social constructs which are just that.

OR that TWO of those ONE really ARE ONE and refuse to accept it.

Everyone always leaves that one out but it is still a possibility and it is the very possibility that drives Orthodox/Catholic dialogue.
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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2011, 10:53:57 AM »

  Vatican II may very well have made the breach more irreparable as any other time, because now we literally live different lives.  The Orthodox is a fasting, liturgical, calendar driven culture where as Rome is more political, celebratory, and popular reform oriented culture. The day to day lives in a Roman Catholic parish are radically different and unrecognizable as that of an Orthodox parish. 

You are right that there are different cultures of piety and practice, but I really don't think you know much about the daily spiritual lives of Catholics...many of them...many more of them than are in Orthodoxy, simply because there are more of us.   But you cannot tell me that each and every Orthodox person or family lives the life.   I have spent too much time in parishes on both sides to accept any such claim as true.  You really cannot know us until you have lived with and around us, any more than I could have come to know you without spending years among you to the best of my ability, living the life, if not the sacraments.
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2011, 10:59:47 AM »


It would seem the Patriarch is indicating that there are difference theological constructs of our existence.  For instance, from an Orthodoxy perspective we are made in the image of God, an image which needs repair while the West sees humanity as made of totally depraved and only through God's justice one might, might, obtain something of God's mercy.

It is an extreme error to presume that "the west" includes the Catholic Church.  In most cases, and in this one also, that is not the case.  This kind of sloppy analysis comes from all kinds of folks...clergy and hierarchs as well as scholars and laypeople.   It does a great deal of damage to Orthodox-Catholic relations.

M.
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2011, 11:56:13 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The Church, however, is Christ as "I AM," and He is not socially contructed nor culturally informed.
But the question in this case would be "which Church is Christ?" Unless you subscribe to the idea that there can be more than one Church (eg "Branch Theory"), then only one of them can be Christ. The existence of two or more separate bodies claiming to be the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" seems to me to make them ontologically different. One of them is Christ as experienced in the Community which forms His Body, the Church (which cannot be said to be devoid of social constructs since it is both a Divine and Human entity), and the others are social constructs which are just that.
Indeed!  And I believe that you, I, Father Ambrose and the Ecumenical Patriarch are agreed on the correct identity of which Church is Christ,

Is that like an error-loves-company kind of thing?

 angel
No, that "when two or three are gathered in My Name lo! There I am in the midst of them" thing.
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2011, 12:21:57 PM »

The Spirit is descended!

It would seem the Patriarch is indicating that there are difference theological constructs of our existence.  For instance, from an Orthodoxy perspective we are made in the image of God, an image which needs repair while the West sees humanity as made of totally depraved and only through God's justice one might, might, obtain something of God's mercy.

It is an extreme error to presume that "the west" includes the Catholic Church.  In most cases, and in this one also, that is not the case.  This kind of sloppy analysis comes from all kinds of folks...clergy and hierarchs as well as scholars and laypeople.   It does a great deal of damage to Orthodox-Catholic relations.

M.
Of course the Catholic Church includes the West.  Catholic means "according to the whole."  He is a bishop in the West in the Orthdodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
As for "the west" including the Vatican, Augustinianism does seem to be a common patrimony of the west.  Not moderated by Orthodoxy, it can yield some pretty extreme stuff.  This one, total depravity, also being the case, developed in its most extreme form perhaps by John Calvin, whose father raised him for the Vatican's priesthood. Wasn't the Council of Orange in the West?
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« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2011, 12:29:17 PM »

The Spirit is descended!

It would seem the Patriarch is indicating that there are difference theological constructs of our existence.  For instance, from an Orthodoxy perspective we are made in the image of God, an image which needs repair while the West sees humanity as made of totally depraved and only through God's justice one might, might, obtain something of God's mercy.

It is an extreme error to presume that "the west" includes the Catholic Church.  In most cases, and in this one also, that is not the case.  This kind of sloppy analysis comes from all kinds of folks...clergy and hierarchs as well as scholars and laypeople.   It does a great deal of damage to Orthodox-Catholic relations.

M.
Of course the Catholic Church includes the West. 

When one speaks of the so-called "errors" of the west, it has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, and here I am not making reference to your co-religionists at all...whether they are a part of the Orthodox Unia/western rite, or not.
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« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2011, 12:46:41 PM »

The Spirit is descended!

It would seem the Patriarch is indicating that there are difference theological constructs of our existence.  For instance, from an Orthodoxy perspective we are made in the image of God, an image which needs repair while the West sees humanity as made of totally depraved and only through God's justice one might, might, obtain something of God's mercy.

It is an extreme error to presume that "the west" includes the Catholic Church.  In most cases, and in this one also, that is not the case.  This kind of sloppy analysis comes from all kinds of folks...clergy and hierarchs as well as scholars and laypeople.   It does a great deal of damage to Orthodox-Catholic relations.

M.
Of course the Catholic Church includes the West. 

When one speaks of the so-called "errors" of the west, it has nothing to do with the Catholic Church,
Of course it doesn't, something I remind Orthodox occidentophobes.
and here I am not making reference to your co-religionists at all
You said "the Catholic Church." That is my co-religionists.
...whether they are a part of the Orthodox Unia/western rite, or not.
Since neither force nor duplicity has been used in the Western Rite Orthodox jurisdictions, they don't qualify as a "Unia."
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« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2011, 01:09:12 PM »


...whether they are a part of the Orthodox Unia/western rite, or not.
Since neither force nor duplicity has been used in the Western Rite Orthodox jurisdictions, they don't qualify as a "Unia."
[/quote]

I agree, but I pray that regardless of how the Western Rite came into being, that we treat it with the respect that Rome never afforded the peoples under the Unias. Many of us here are well aware of that from the oral histories of our parents and grandparents!
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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2011, 01:15:51 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
...whether they are a part of the Orthodox Unia/western rite, or not
Since neither force nor duplicity has been used in the Western Rite Orthodox jurisdictions, they don't qualify as a "Unia."

I agree, but I pray that regardless of how the Western Rite came into being, that we treat it with the respect that Rome never afforded the peoples under the Unias. Many of us here are well aware of that from the oral histories of our parents and grandparents!
Indeed!  New Rome has too often been keen on repeating the errors of Old Rome.
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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2011, 01:19:27 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
...whether they are a part of the Orthodox Unia/western rite, or not
Since neither force nor duplicity has been used in the Western Rite Orthodox jurisdictions, they don't qualify as a "Unia."

I agree, but I pray that regardless of how the Western Rite came into being, that we treat it with the respect that Rome never afforded the peoples under the Unias. Many of us here are well aware of that from the oral histories of our parents and grandparents!
Indeed!  New Rome has too often been keen on repeating the errors of Old Rome.

All of the cities and their religious leaders proclaimed to be a New Rome seem to suffer from this affliction from time to time!
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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2011, 08:38:05 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ,

 It is the Roman Church that needs the Orthodox.  While the Orthodox Church humbly confesses what it received from Christ and the Apostles, the Roman Church dares to add or change it. Metropolitan Athanasios of Cyprus has stated," He (the Pope) has been outside of the church for ten centuries now, he is not a canonical bishop, and he has no relation whatsoever to the reality of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ. It is one thing to receive him as a canonical bishop and quite another to speak to him as being a heterodox in order to reveal to him the truth of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition. Dialogue is not a bad thing when it is carried out based on correct presuppositions. However, it is wrong to say to these people that we recognize the Pope as a bishop, as our brother in Christ in the priesthood and in the faith. I cannot accept this, because we are lying when we say this, since all of the Holy Fathers teach exactly the opposite. Papism is a heresy and the source of many other heresies that trouble the entire world today."

 The Latin Church, along with all the other branches that have separated from Rome, the Anglicans and Protestants, have departed from the early Church, separated themselves from the True Faith and Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2011, 06:32:06 PM »


All that you write is a valid Orthodox position but just to balance it...... one needs to point out that the Russian Orthodox Church has recognised the authenticity of Roman Catholic and non-Chalcedonian Sacraments/Mysteries for many centuries. 

Please message 57
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« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2011, 07:20:42 PM »


All that you write is a valid Orthodox position but just to balance it...... one needs to point out that the Russian Orthodox Church has recognised the authenticity of Roman Catholic and non-Chalcedonian Sacraments/Mysteries for many centuries. 

Please message 57
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555625.html#msg555625

Not only that but there has always been de facto communion, somewhere in the world, between papal Catholics and Orthodox Catholics throughout the history of the schism.  There have always been unionists and anti-unionists in both Churches throughout the time of the schism.

These things alone should signify that we are wrong to keep the schism going as we do.
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2011, 07:35:04 PM »


All that you write is a valid Orthodox position but just to balance it...... one needs to point out that the Russian Orthodox Church has recognised the authenticity of Roman Catholic and non-Chalcedonian Sacraments/Mysteries for many centuries. 

Please message 57
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555625.html#msg555625

Not only that but there has always been de facto communion, somewhere in the world, between papal Catholics and Orthodox Catholics throughout the history of the schism.  There have always been unionists and anti-unionists in both Churches throughout the time of the schism.

These things alone should signify that we are wrong to keep the schism going as we do.

We look at the way the Pope and the Vatican treat the Eastern Catholic Churches and we pray:  Dear Lord, may the schism last forever!
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« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2011, 07:41:17 PM »


All that you write is a valid Orthodox position but just to balance it...... one needs to point out that the Russian Orthodox Church has recognised the authenticity of Roman Catholic and non-Chalcedonian Sacraments/Mysteries for many centuries. 

Please message 57
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555625.html#msg555625

Not only that but there has always been de facto communion, somewhere in the world, between papal Catholics and Orthodox Catholics throughout the history of the schism.  There have always been unionists and anti-unionists in both Churches throughout the time of the schism.

These things alone should signify that we are wrong to keep the schism going as we do.

We look at the way the Pope and the Vatican treat the Eastern Catholic Churches and we pray:  Dear Lord, may the schism last forever!

Oh don't be so silly!!...Things are getting better there and frankly, they carry a great deal of responsibility for their own fates.  Some are doing much better than others.

Besides there will never be that kind of "union" again.

That's why the focus on primatial power now...

And you had better not pray for schism...But then again you cannot imagine anything but heaven for everyone.

What a shock it may be to find out you were a tad "off" in your estimations...not for yourself but for those who genuinely do pray for evil.
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« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2011, 07:47:35 PM »

...But then again you cannot imagine anything but heaven for everyone.

What a shock it may be to find out you were a tad "off" in your estimations...not for yourself but for those who genuinely do pray for evil.

Tell me, is there even a single soul which Catholics believe and proclaim to be in hell?  Names...?  Nero?  Hitler?  Saddam?  Father Marcial Maciel?
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« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2011, 07:53:38 PM »


Oh don't be so silly!!...Things are getting better there and frankly, they carry a great deal of responsibility for their own fates.  Some are doing much better than others.



Hrrmm... which Catholic Church (clue... headquarters on the Hill of Sorcerers :-) has recently banned married clergy in Italy to serve the needs of Eastern Catholic Ukrainians?  And in Poland?

So, what's changed?  You and your Eastern brethren are still second class citizens in Rome's eyes.
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« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2011, 07:57:46 PM »


And you had better not pray for schism...



I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?
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« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2011, 09:12:16 PM »


And you had better not pray for schism...



I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?

No it is not.  If it were that is what we would be hearing from the bilateral discussions.  We are not hearing any kind of proselytism at all.  Rather the pope, when he is received in Orthodox venues, is received with all due respect as the pope of the Catholic Church.

There is no need to make these kinds of demands of the papal Church.  No need at all.   

You don't want them made for Orthodoxy, so don't expect it from the papal Church.

However much we are different, the substance of the shared faith does not call for schism.
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« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2011, 09:21:03 PM »

Quote
However much we are different, the substance of the shared faith does not call for schism.

This is simply delusional.
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« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2011, 09:27:47 PM »

Quote
However much we are different, the substance of the shared faith does not call for schism.

This is simply delusional.

Not at all.  As I said, it is a fact of our existence that somewhere in the world, through out the years of schism, there have always been times and places of shared communion between papal Catholics and Orthodox Catholics.

I think you are deluding yourself for not recognizing the full import of this fact.

Also your respective Churches continue dialogue in good faith, and if you were correct, they really ought to be proselytizing, and clearly they are not.
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« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2011, 09:32:32 PM »


And you had better not pray for schism...



I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?

No it is not.  If it were that is what we would be hearing from the bilateral discussions.  We are not hearing any kind of proselytism at all.  Rather the pope, when he is received in Orthodox venues, is received with all due respect as the pope of the Catholic Church.

There is no need to make these kinds of demands of the papal Church.  No need at all.   

You don't want them made for Orthodoxy, so don't expect it from the papal Church.


When it all boils down, the Orthodox Church views herself as the Una Sancta and free to make whatever demands she thinks are God-pleasing on any other Christian body entering into union with her.  As we know there will be minimal demands on the Pope and Roman Catholics and I would expect that everything will be smothered in lavish amounts of ekonomia.     The concept of "papacy" will have to be demolished and this will be the hardest thing for Rome.  But as someone was explaining yesterday there is a solid and healthy understanding of suffering as a synergistic process which is ultimately most beneficial.  Rome will gain far far more than she looses.
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« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2011, 10:11:26 PM »


And you had better not pray for schism...



I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?

No it is not.  If it were that is what we would be hearing from the bilateral discussions.  We are not hearing any kind of proselytism at all.  Rather the pope, when he is received in Orthodox venues, is received with all due respect as the pope of the Catholic Church.

There is no need to make these kinds of demands of the papal Church.  No need at all.   

You don't want them made for Orthodoxy, so don't expect it from the papal Church.


When it all boils down, the Orthodox Church views herself as the Una Sancta and free to make whatever demands she thinks are God-pleasing on any other Christian body entering into union with her.  As we know there will be minimal demands on the Pope and Roman Catholics and I would expect that everything will be smothered in lavish amounts of ekonomia.     The concept of "papacy" will have to be demolished and this will be the hardest thing for Rome.  But as someone was explaining yesterday there is a solid and healthy understanding of suffering as a synergistic process which is ultimately most beneficial.  Rome will gain far far more than she looses.

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.  Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own.  There will be time for the forging of mutual understanding.  There will be no change in teaching concerning the papacy.  It will be adjusted for primatial power/jurisdiction of particular primatial Churches, and that will be that.

All the rest of it Father has not even been placed on the table for discussion.  I believe the dialogue is being held in good faith, so there will be no sucker punches in the end.

M.

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« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2011, 10:52:02 PM »

Quote
The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.  Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own. 


Relinquishing erroneous teachings by the RCC is a non-negotiable criterion for the Orthodox Church to accept Rome. Get used to it.

Quote
There will be no change in teaching concerning the papacy.  It will be adjusted for primatial power/jurisdiction of particular primatial Churches, and that will be that.

The Pope of Rome in a unified Church can only be on an equal level to his brother patriarchs, not as a supreme leader over all. And, given a thousand years of separation, cannot automatically reclaim the "first among equals" place the office once had.
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« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2011, 11:40:44 PM »

I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?

Is not.
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« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2011, 11:52:55 PM »


And you had better not pray for schism...



I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?

No it is not.  If it were that is what we would be hearing from the bilateral discussions.  We are not hearing any kind of proselytism at all.  Rather the pope, when he is received in Orthodox venues, is received with all due respect as the pope of the Catholic Church.

There is no need to make these kinds of demands of the papal Church.  No need at all.  

You don't want them made for Orthodoxy, so don't expect it from the papal Church.


When it all boils down, the Orthodox Church views herself as the Una Sancta and free to make whatever demands she thinks are God-pleasing on any other Christian body entering into union with her.  As we know there will be minimal demands on the Pope and Roman Catholics and I would expect that everything will be smothered in lavish amounts of ekonomia.     The concept of "papacy" will have to be demolished and this will be the hardest thing for Rome.  But as someone was explaining yesterday there is a solid and healthy understanding of suffering as a synergistic process which is ultimately most beneficial.  Rome will gain far far more than she looses.

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.
 
No, we will not.
Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own.
 
Yes, when it comes to their heretical teachings, we will.
There will be time for the forging of mutual understanding.  There will be no change in teaching concerning the papacy.
No, there won't: we will condemn the Ultramontanist teaching of the Vatican.
It will be adjusted for primatial power/jurisdiction of particular primatial Churches, and that will be that.
Yes, its now a suffragan of Bucharest


All the rest of it Father has not even been placed on the table for discussion.

That's right, because repudiating the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church is not on the table nor in the cards.

I believe the dialogue is being held in good faith, so there will be no sucker punches in the end.
That's right. Gehen wir nicht nach Canossa.
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« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2011, 11:58:00 PM »

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings. 
I don't think that this is true.
The Catholic Church has relinquished her preVatican II teaching that very strict conditions are necessary before a marriage annulment can take place.
The Catholic Church has relinquished her teaching on the use of profane music, clapping, dancing, swaying to and fro, hugging and kissing at Catholic Masses. Before Vatican II, the teaching was that only music of a sacred nature, such as the Gregorian chant, could take place at Mass.
The Catholic Church has relinquished her teaching on altar girls.
etc.
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« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2011, 12:07:36 AM »


All that you write is a valid Orthodox position but just to balance it...... one needs to point out that the Russian Orthodox Church has recognised the authenticity of Roman Catholic and non-Chalcedonian Sacraments/Mysteries for many centuries. 

Please message 57
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35132.msg555625.html#msg555625

Not only that but there has always been de facto communion, somewhere in the world, between papal Catholics and Orthodox Catholics throughout the history of the schism.  There have always been unionists and anti-unionists in both Churches throughout the time of the schism.

These things alone should signify that we are wrong to keep the schism going as we do.

We should all follow the excellent example of the Holy Synod of Romania.
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« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2011, 12:28:24 AM »


And you had better not pray for schism...



I pray that there will be union when the Pope and Catholic faithful have adopted the fullness of Orthodoxy.  Then the union will be true and pleasing to God.  I suppose that that is tantamount to praying for a continuation of the schism?

No it is not.  If it were that is what we would be hearing from the bilateral discussions.
You seem very good at hearing what you want, even if it means hearing things.

We are not hearing any kind of proselytism at all.
Then you are not listening. Remember a few meetings back when we refused to state that the Vatican had a "valid" baptism?

Rather the pope, when he is received in Orthodox venues, is received with all due respect as the pope of the Catholic Church.
You mean your supreme pontiff Benedict XVI?  No, he is not because he is not: in contrast to Pope Theodore of Alexandria, he is not commemorated in the diptychs, nor invited to concelebrate much less preside, and especially he is not given communion.

Don't get so happy if someone calls him Pope of Rome.  They call Rowan Williams the Archbishop of Canterbury.  In fact, the Vatican calls him that too, though it believes he is a layman.

There is no need to make these kinds of demands of the papal Church.  No need at all.
   
The Truth of Christ demands it.
You don't want them made for Orthodoxy, so don't expect it from the papal Church.
What fellowship does Christ have with Belial?  The standards of Truth are not on a par with the demands of falsehood.

However much we are different, the substance of the shared faith does not call for schism.
The Homoiousians said the same thing: what's in an "i"?  Athanasius contra mundi.
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« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2011, 12:36:45 AM »

Quote
However much we are different, the substance of the shared faith does not call for schism.

This is simply delusional.

Not at all.  As I said, it is a fact of our existence that somewhere in the world, through out the years of schism, there have always been times and places of shared communion between papal Catholics and Orthodox Catholics.
Yeah, and murders have been occuring since Cain, but that doesn't void the Sixth Commandment.

I think you are deluding yourself for not recognizing the full import of this fact.
...Eateth and drinketh unto damnation...

Also your respective Churches continue dialogue in good faith, and if you were correct, they really ought to be proselytizing, and clearly they are not.
Since they have been witnessing to the Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church, clearly they are.  They need not take up the sword.  Given your ecclesiastical community's history, I can see why you find that so novel.
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« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2011, 12:37:05 AM »


You seem very good at hearing what you want, even if it means hearing things.


My "hearing" is fine.   Better than your distortions of history to suit.
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« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2011, 12:41:34 AM »

Since they have been witnessing to the Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church, clearly they are. 

Then they dialogue in bad faith.  Would not be the first time.

Or perhaps your own "hearing" isn't all that you think it is.
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« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2011, 04:54:41 AM »

Since they have been witnessing to the Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church, clearly they are. 

Then they dialogue in bad faith.  Would not be the first time.

Or perhaps your own "hearing" isn't all that you think it is.
Dialogue doesn't mean babbling senselessly. which is what refusing to tell it like it is entails.  It is not bad faith to witness to the True Faith, but hiding it under a bushel would be.

And the Orthodox never spoke in bad faith: the emperors dragged them into talks by force, just as the Vatican (ever selective in its condemnation of Caesaropapism) wanted.  You can't complain when you get what you ask for.

I do seem to rememeber hearing about the more "ecumenically" minded being talked to recently.  They should listen.  You should listen.
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« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2011, 08:05:30 AM »

Since they have been witnessing to the Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church, clearly they are. 

Then they dialogue in bad faith.  Would not be the first time.

Or perhaps your own "hearing" isn't all that you think it is.
Dialogue doesn't mean babbling senselessly. which is what refusing to tell it like it is entails.  It is not bad faith to witness to the True Faith, but hiding it under a bushel would be.

And the Orthodox never spoke in bad faith: the emperors dragged them into talks by force, just as the Vatican (ever selective in its condemnation of Caesaropapism) wanted.  You can't complain when you get what you ask for.

I do seem to rememeber hearing about the more "ecumenically" minded being talked to recently.  They should listen.  You should listen.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last paragraph, but the dialoguing-in-bad-faith question is an interesting one. Although the This Rock article doesn't actually bring it up, it could be seen as a spin-off of the article. More specifically, when it says in the conclusion that "While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto", that would seem to imply that if it turns out otherwise, then the dialogue was in bad faith.
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« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2011, 08:18:32 AM »

Since they have been witnessing to the Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church, clearly they are. 

Then they dialogue in bad faith.  Would not be the first time.

Or perhaps your own "hearing" isn't all that you think it is.
Dialogue doesn't mean babbling senselessly. which is what refusing to tell it like it is entails.  It is not bad faith to witness to the True Faith, but hiding it under a bushel would be.

And the Orthodox never spoke in bad faith: the emperors dragged them into talks by force, just as the Vatican (ever selective in its condemnation of Caesaropapism) wanted.  You can't complain when you get what you ask for.

I do seem to rememeber hearing about the more "ecumenically" minded being talked to recently.  They should listen.  You should listen.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last paragraph, but the dialoguing-in-bad-faith question is an interesting one. Although the This Rock article doesn't actually bring it up, it could be seen as a spin-off of the article. More specifically, when it says in the conclusion that "While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto", that would seem to imply that if it turns out otherwise, then the dialogue was in bad faith.

Yes.  There is too much open access to lines of near-instant communication any more to have it be anything else.  If some of the anti-unionists on this forum are indeed correct then all papal Catholic bishops need to be notified that there is no bilateral dialogue any longer and that they need to give up their heresy and go home or face a formal excommunication from Orthodoxy.  That would be honest, according to what I hear from the anti-unionists.   Short of that they are playing games with the faith.

IF we were operating in a venue such as the WCC competing in a global market for souls...then it might be a different sort of situation, but the bilateral dialogue is more intimate and more personal...and ought to be conducted with the utmost honesty.

But if a cluster of related Churches cannot even figure out the diptychs...then I am not sure how honest one can actually be at the table of dialogue.

M.
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« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2011, 08:43:48 AM »

Dear Peter and Mary,

We can look at a recent Russian statement issued by all the bishops of the Russian Church at their Millennial 2000 Synod.  I am sure the Vatican is thoroughly familiar with what the bishops proclaim..There is no dealing in bad faith.  Everything is upfront.

4.1. The Russian Orthodox Church has carried on theological dialogue with non-Orthodox Christians for over two centuries. This dialogue has been characterised by the combination of a principled dogmatic approach and a fraternal love. This principle was formulated in the “Response to the Letter of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate” [?] (1903) as a method of theological dialogue with the Anglicans and the Old Catholics. With regard to non-Orthodox confessions, it was said, ]“there must be fraternal readiness to help them by explanations, normal consideration for their best wishes, all possible forbearance towards their natural perplexities, given the age-old division, but at the same time the firm confession of the truth of our Universal Church as a sole guardian of Christ’s heritage and a sole saving ark of divine grace: Our task with regard to them should be: without putting before them unnecessary obstacle for union by being inappropriately intolerant and suspicious: to interpret for them our faith and unchangeable conviction that it is only our Eastern Orthodox Church, which has preserved intact the entire pledge of Christ, that is at present the Universal Church, and thus to show them in fact what they should consider and decide upon if they really believe that salvation is bound up with life in the Church and sincerely wish to be united with her:”

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/attitude-to-the-non-orthodox/
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« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2011, 09:04:43 AM »

Dear Peter and Mary,

There are statements from various Orthodox Churches going back decades, laying out the ground rules and understanding of the Orthodox in the ecumenical encounter.  In all these statements it is stressed that the Orthodox are not there to engage in a bilateral dialogue of equals hoping to create theological points of agreement which will permit eventual union.  They state plainly that they are dialoguing in order to give voice to the orthodox faith, to help others to understand it and to eventually accept it and come into the fullness of the Church.

The Orthodox engagement in ecumenical dialogue has never had any other basis nor any other purpose.

There has been no deceit nor any bad-faith dealing.
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« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2011, 09:31:32 AM »

Dear Peter and Mary,

We can look at a recent Russian statement issued by all the bishops of the Russian Church at their Millennial 2000 Synod.  I am sure the Vatican is thoroughly familiar with what the bishops proclaim..There is no dealing in bad faith.  Everything is upfront.

http://www.mospat.ru/en/documents/attitude-to-the-non-orthodox/

The bishops of the Episcopal Synod in 2000, about 220 of them

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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2011, 09:43:03 AM »

Dear Peter and Mary,

There are statements from various Orthodox Churches going back decades, laying out the ground rules and understanding of the Orthodox in the ecumenical encounter.  In all these statements it is stressed that the Orthodox are not there to engage in a bilateral dialogue of equals hoping to create theological points of agreement which will permit eventual union.  They state plainly that they are dialoguing in order to give voice to the orthodox faith, to help others to understand it and to eventually accept it and come into the fullness of the Church.

The Orthodox engagement in ecumenical dialogue has never had any other basis nor any other purpose.

There has been no deceit nor any bad-faith dealing.

Hi Father Ambrose.

First, regarding my last post, I want to make clear that the This Rock article didn't bring up (much less answer) the dialoguing-in-bad-faith question. I was just speculating on where their assertions might lead one.

Having gotten that out of the way, I don't understand why you and everyone else seem to assume that the Vatican does not take a similar view to what you just described (but in reverse of course). (Does that make me "one of those traditionalist Catholics"?)

Perhaps you'll quote me this:

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.  Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own.

or something similar from This Rock, Dave Armstrong, etc?
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« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2011, 09:50:46 AM »

Dear Peter and Mary,

There are statements from various Orthodox Churches going back decades, laying out the ground rules and understanding of the Orthodox in the ecumenical encounter.  In all these statements it is stressed that the Orthodox are not there to engage in a bilateral dialogue of equals hoping to create theological points of agreement which will permit eventual union.  They state plainly that they are dialoguing in order to give voice to the orthodox faith, to help others to understand it and to eventually accept it and come into the fullness of the Church.

The Orthodox engagement in ecumenical dialogue has never had any other basis nor any other purpose.

There has been no deceit nor any bad-faith dealing.

Hi Father Ambrose.

First, regarding my last post, I want to make clear that the This Rock article didn't bring up (much less answer) the dialoguing-in-bad-faith question. I was just speculating on where their assertions might lead one.

Having gotten that out of the way, I don't understand why you and everyone else seem to assume that the Vatican does not take a similar view to what you just described (but in reverse of course). (Does that make me "one of those traditionalist Catholics"?)

Perhaps you'll quote me this:

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.  Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own.

or something similar from This Rock, Dave Armstrong, etc?

Maybe you and Mary could expatiate on what you had in mind by the Orthodox dialoguing in bad faith?
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« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2011, 10:26:01 AM »

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.  Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own. 

Are you saying that she won't demand that as a condition for full communion?
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« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2011, 10:32:34 AM »

Dear Peter and Mary,

There are statements from various Orthodox Churches going back decades, laying out the ground rules and understanding of the Orthodox in the ecumenical encounter.  In all these statements it is stressed that the Orthodox are not there to engage in a bilateral dialogue of equals hoping to create theological points of agreement which will permit eventual union.  They state plainly that they are dialoguing in order to give voice to the orthodox faith, to help others to understand it and to eventually accept it and come into the fullness of the Church.

The Orthodox engagement in ecumenical dialogue has never had any other basis nor any other purpose.

There has been no deceit nor any bad-faith dealing.

Hi Father Ambrose.

First, regarding my last post, I want to make clear that the This Rock article didn't bring up (much less answer) the dialoguing-in-bad-faith question. I was just speculating on where their assertions might lead one.

Having gotten that out of the way, I don't understand why you and everyone else seem to assume that the Vatican does not take a similar view to what you just described (but in reverse of course). (Does that make me "one of those traditionalist Catholics"?)

Perhaps you'll quote me this:

The Catholic Church will not relinquish her teachings.  Nor will she demand others to relinquish their own.

or something similar from This Rock, Dave Armstrong, etc?

Maybe you and Mary could expatiate on what you had in mind by the Orthodox dialoguing in bad faith?

I'll give it some thought, but I don't know if I can say very much. That the Orthodox are dialoguing in bad faith would be a very hefty accusation, and in fact I'm not aware of anyone who makes it (even though I do think the This Rock article relates to it).
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