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Author Topic: Why do the Orthodox need Catholics?  (Read 11984 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: June 12, 2011, 09:40:02 AM »

To rescue them from the likes of Frank Schaeffer and Alexey Young!

What happened to Franky Schaeffer?

Not, of course, that Schaeffer and Young would see it that way. In fact ...

Quote
He [Young] issues this warning to his fellow believers: "Orthodox patriarchs, bishops, priests, and theologians--all you who actively pursue a policy of rapprochement with Rome: Beware. You are trying to bring the Orthodox Church into a lion's den of unbelievable malignancy. You cannot save the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church can and will contaminate and then destroy you."
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »

Dear Peter J,

While the words of Fr Alexei Young (now an elderly hiero schema monk named Ambrose and a spiritual father to many people in a small Ohio monastery) may appear dreadful and extreme, we have to remember that they are not a peripheral stream of opinion within the Church.  In fact they are probably tending to the majority.  But in the West people tend to meet with much more ecumenical-friendly Orthodox but......

Nobody who is reasonably acquainted with the history of the contact between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy will doubt that the desire of Catholicism for centuries past has been the extinction of Orthodoxy.   You have had a mere 40 years since Vatican II when you have adopted a different tack, but is 40 years enough to convince the Orthodox that the leopard has changed its spots?  It did not convince Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London, 30 years after Vatican II..

Yes, we partake of the doubt and suspicion described by Metropolitan Anthony in his summation of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.   What he said is worth noting since he was a Russian hierarch who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue in Western Europe between the Orthodox and Catholics.  

He was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow in 1997 and he made a written report to the Patriarch and Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.


What you will find is that what Metropolitan Anthony and Fr Ambrose Young write is the "default position" for many Orthodox but in actual intercourse with Catholics they will present a much more friendly and polite position.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 10:25:09 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2011, 11:46:31 AM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2011, 12:40:30 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy. 

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2011, 04:40:43 PM »

Sorry Peter, but are you saying that the Orthodox need Rome, to save us from people who dislike Rome?

I think talks would be a lot more fruitful if Catholics decided what their perspective on these issues is, and allowed us to decide what our perspective is. It certainly doesn't help when Catholics go out of their way to demonize certain individuals and then tell us to listen to another individual.

The majority position in Orthodoxy is that we do not need Rome. If Rome wishes to return to the fold, that is theirs to do, we shall leave the door open, but we have no need to search for you.
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2011, 04:50:37 PM »

Nobody who is reasonably acquainted with the history of the contact between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy will doubt that the desire of Catholicism for centuries past has been the extinction of Orthodoxy.   You have had a mere 40 years since Vatican II when you have adopted a different tack, but is 40 years enough to convince the Orthodox that the leopard has changed its spots?  It did not convince Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London, 30 years after Vatican II..

Let me preface my response by saying that I think the phrase "extinction of Orthodoxy" is unnecessarily bleak, but I quite agree with you that 40 years is a very short time -- also, I'm not unaware of the fact that the Balamand Agreement "Uniatism, Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion" wasn't even 20 years ago.

But to get to the heart of the paragraph quoted above, I think the question of whether "the leopard has changed its spots" ought to be broken down further (not withstanding the tendency of many neo-conservative Catholics to present their view as the only Catholic view on the matter): If, indeed, changes are/were called for (and I believe they are/were) then it doesn't necessarily follow that there can only be one view about what those changes should be.

I recently commented (as you may have seen) that I am in no way opposed to every single change that has happened in the last century, but I certainly find it troubling that many of the things that were discarded were the very things that Catholics and Orthodox agreed on.

I'm not trying to turn this into a discussion of Vatican II or a "neo-conservative vs. traditionalist" debate, so I'll just say that ultimately I can't blame you for being skeptical of whether "the leopard has changed its spots".
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 04:53:18 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2011, 04:54:56 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy.  

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!

It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that was founded by Christ himself, that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is this same Church, that the Church of Rome willingly broke away from out of her own pride and lust for power. I'm sorry, but it is clear to me that while both the Apostolic Church, and the Church of Rome received wounds during the Great Schism, it is only the Church of Rome whose wounds still fester and decay. She has tried to nurse those wounds, and even cover them up with all sorts of sweet smelling ointments. But her wounds cannot, and will not ever heal unless she reunites herself to the Body of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox Church has been the father waiting for his prodigal son to return. But as of yet, that prodigal son still lays in the pig pen, delusional and enjoying his voracious life.

Ecumenism, when probably done, is intended to show the Church of Rome the error of her ways, and to light the way back home. We will continue calling, showing the way home like a lighthouse calling ships home. But we will not, cannot ever go out to join the Church of Rome outside of the walls of our sacred and holy Church.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Romophobe. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is probably the only church other than the EO or OO that can help defeat many of the evils of today. I also enjoy learning about the Roman Catholic Church, and seeing how she still retains some bit of orthodoxy within her. But that still doesn't mean we are ever going to compromise our own faith to meet the Church of Rome halfway. We cannot, and will not ever compromise on our faith. We will talk, we will discuss, we will learn, but we cannot compromise or change.

The answer the OP... We don't need the Roman Catholic Church. We are simply calling out to a long-lost brother who has been living in the world, as a part of the world for a long time.
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2011, 05:22:56 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy.  

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!

It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that was founded by Christ himself, that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is this same Church, that the Church of Rome willingly broke away from out of her own pride and lust for power. I'm sorry, but it is clear to me that while both the Apostolic Church, and the Church of Rome received wounds during the Great Schism, it is only the Church of Rome whose wounds still fester and decay. She has tried to nurse those wounds, and even cover them up with all sorts of sweet smelling ointments. But her wounds cannot, and will not ever heal unless she reunites herself to the Body of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox Church has been the father waiting for his prodigal son to return. But as of yet, that prodigal son still lays in the pig pen, delusional and enjoying his voracious life.

Ecumenism, when probably done, is intended to show the Church of Rome the error of her ways, and to light the way back home. We will continue calling, showing the way home like a lighthouse calling ships home. But we will not, cannot ever go out to join the Church of Rome outside of the walls of our sacred and holy Church.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Romophobe. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is probably the only church other than the EO or OO that can help defeat many of the evils of today. I also enjoy learning about the Roman Catholic Church, and seeing how she still retains some bit of orthodoxy within her. But that still doesn't mean we are ever going to compromise our own faith to meet the Church of Rome halfway. We cannot, and will not ever compromise on our faith. We will talk, we will discuss, we will learn, but we cannot compromise or change.

The answer the OP... We don't need the Roman Catholic Church. We are simply calling out to a long-lost brother who has been living in the world, as a part of the world for a long time.



BRAVO!  Well said my Orthodox Catholic brother in Christ!

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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2011, 05:27:48 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy.  

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!

It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that was founded by Christ himself, that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is this same Church, that the Church of Rome willingly broke away from out of her own pride and lust for power. I'm sorry, but it is clear to me...

I don't know how you can see much at all with that plank in your eye.
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 05:48:16 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy.  

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!

It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that was founded by Christ himself, that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is this same Church, that the Church of Rome willingly broke away from out of her own pride and lust for power. I'm sorry, but it is clear to me that while both the Apostolic Church, and the Church of Rome received wounds during the Great Schism, it is only the Church of Rome whose wounds still fester and decay. She has tried to nurse those wounds, and even cover them up with all sorts of sweet smelling ointments. But her wounds cannot, and will not ever heal unless she reunites herself to the Body of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox Church has been the father waiting for his prodigal son to return. But as of yet, that prodigal son still lays in the pig pen, delusional and enjoying his voracious life.

Ecumenism, when probably done, is intended to show the Church of Rome the error of her ways, and to light the way back home. We will continue calling, showing the way home like a lighthouse calling ships home. But we will not, cannot ever go out to join the Church of Rome outside of the walls of our sacred and holy Church.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Romophobe. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is probably the only church other than the EO or OO that can help defeat many of the evils of today. I also enjoy learning about the Roman Catholic Church, and seeing how she still retains some bit of orthodoxy within her. But that still doesn't mean we are ever going to compromise our own faith to meet the Church of Rome halfway. We cannot, and will not ever compromise on our faith. We will talk, we will discuss, we will learn, but we cannot compromise or change.

The answer the OP... We don't need the Roman Catholic Church. We are simply calling out to a long-lost brother who has been living in the world, as a part of the world for a long time.



BRAVO!  Well said my Orthodox Catholic brother in Christ!

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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2011, 06:15:29 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy.  

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!

It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that was founded by Christ himself, that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is this same Church, that the Church of Rome willingly broke away from out of her own pride and lust for power. I'm sorry, but it is clear to me...

I don't know how you can see much at all with that plank in your eye.

If there is any plank, it is certainly looming large in the eye of Fr Ambrose Young.  What he is quoted as saying in the OP would bring any dialogue to a halt.
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2011, 07:54:09 PM »

The Spirit has descended!

The Orthodox=the Catholics.

But of course:

The Catholic Church does indeed equal Orthodoxy.  

When the Eastern Orthodox figure that out, it will be quite clear that we can no longer remain out of communion.

Blessed Pentecost!!

The Glory of the Body of Christ is with us, and in us, and of us!!
We, who confess the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church.

Out East, where Pentecost occured and the Spirit came down, the Eastern Orthodox figured that out about 1990 years ago, and so have remained in communion with the Patriarch of Jerusalem, successor of St. James the Brother of God, who sits on the Throne of David in the City of Sion, where the Spirit came down.

The Orthodox having held fast to that Catholic Faith, what help could the Vatican, who has wandered from it, offer to Christ's Body to ward off any alleged errors of Schaeffer, Fr. Young or anyone else?

Quote
Young makes other mistakes. One example: He misunderstands what Pope Gregory the Great was saying whe n he rejected the title "Universal Bishop." Young thinks he meant that a pope is no more than the patriarch of the West, equal in all ways to the other patriarchs, while what Gregory really meant was that the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome does not eviscerate the real episcopal powers and authority of the bishops scattered throughout the world.
Yeah, it does.  Or would, if it were true.  What was the name of the Melkite Patriarch at Vatican I?
Btw
Quote
Speaking of papal infallibility, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has affirmed that the Church's teaching that ordination is reserved to males is an infallible teaching. The confirmation, which refers to the teaching contained in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, states:

"This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church [Lumen Gentium], 25:2).

"Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of faith.

"The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith], and ordered it to be published."

The document was signed by Cardinal Ratzinger and by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, who is the Secretary of the Congregation.

So what does this mean? It means that the doctrine that women cannot be ordained is infallible and unchangeable. The doctrine "has been set forth infallibly in the ordinary and universal magisterium," as that is explained in Lumen Gentium.
And why couldn't his supreme pontiff John Paul II say this?  Would his successor as "supreme pontiff" Benedict XVI say this now?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 08:25:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2011, 08:01:07 PM »

To rescue them from the likes of Frank Schaeffer and Alexey Young!

What happened to Franky Schaeffer?

Not, of course, that Schaeffer and Young would see it that way. In fact ...

Quote
He [Young] issues this warning to his fellow believers: "Orthodox patriarchs, bishops, priests, and theologians--all you who actively pursue a policy of rapprochement with Rome: Beware. You are trying to bring the Orthodox Church into a lion's den of unbelievable malignancy. You cannot save the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church can and will contaminate and then destroy you."

Correct me if I am wrong, but that article is hardly new news, it is well over ten years old.
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 08:40:54 PM »

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 08:44:14 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.
Quote
That folks like Frank Schaeffer and Father Alexey Young do not follow the lead of a trailblazer hardly puts them at the fringe of Orthodoxy, and This Rock was wrong so to dismiss them.



Read more: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=09-01-007-e#ixzz288DxGImS
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 08:44:44 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 09:06:43 PM »

ialmisry said:

"Out East, where Pentecost occured and the Spirit came down, the Eastern Orthodox figured that out about 1990 years ago, and so have remained in communion with the Patriarch of Jerusalem, successor of St. James the Brother of God, who sits on the Throne of David in the City of Sion, where the Spirit came down."

Great post!!!
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2011, 02:08:49 AM »

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve. 

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 02:36:44 AM »

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve. 

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 02:41:46 AM »

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve. 

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809

Why should I have to source it?  I WROTE that message.   laugh

Please take a look at the signature on it.   Grin
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 04:44:04 AM »

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve.  

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809

Why should I have to source it?  I WROTE that message.   laugh

Please take a look at the signature on it.   Grin

Well Duh. And by the way the link no longer works.
And by the way by the way: I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 04:46:04 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 05:09:27 AM »

And by the way the link no longer works.

The Wayback Machine has archived the Patriarch's speech.  Click "Impatient?" at bottom right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090904035040/http://geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Quote
I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.

I don't imagine that geocities would have altered or falsified the Patriarch's speech.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 05:11:47 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2011, 05:24:59 AM »

The Spirit has descended!
And by the way the link no longer works.

The Wayback Machine has archived the Patriarch's speech.  Click "Impatient?" at bottom right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090904035040/http://geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Quote
I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.

I don't imagine that geocities would have altered or falsified the Patriarch's speech.

They didn't: it was widely reported here when HAH said it at Georgetown.  In fact, one of these recent threads which cited some Orthodox enthusiast whose name escapes me (it was in some collection of essays.  IIRC Father you noted that he seemed to have swallowed a thesaurus) quotes the speech.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 05:42:52 AM »

And by the way the link no longer works.

The Wayback Machine has archived the Patriarch's speech.  Click "Impatient?" at bottom right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090904035040/http://geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Quote
I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.

I don't imagine that geocities would have altered or falsified the Patriarch's speech.


So you posted a link which we need the Wayback Machine to view.
See, Irish Hermit, my issue is nothing more than the fact that you simply copied and posted a three year old post of yours which you posted three years ago on a different discussion forum, and did so without even bothering to check whether the links in it still work (and they didn't, which kind of suggests the post is not timeless wisdom and should have been reviewed before reposting). Also I notice that it's almost 3 years to the day that you posted this. Are we coming up to the anniversary of something?

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve.  

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809

Why should I have to source it?  I WROTE that message.   laugh

Please take a look at the signature on it.   Grin

Well Duh. And by the way the link no longer works.
And by the way by the way: I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 05:47:19 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2011, 05:58:28 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
And by the way the link no longer works.

The Wayback Machine has archived the Patriarch's speech.  Click "Impatient?" at bottom right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090904035040/http://geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Quote
I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.

I don't imagine that geocities would have altered or falsified the Patriarch's speech.


So you posted a link which we need the Wayback Machine to view.
See, Irish Hermit, my issue is nothing more than the fact that you simply copied and posted a three year old post of yours which you posted three years ago on a different discussion forum, and did so without even bothering to check whether the links in it still work (and they didn't, which kind of suggests the post is not timeless wisdom and should have been reviewed before reposting). Also I notice that it's almost 3 years to the day that you posted this. Are we coming up to the anniversary of something?

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve.  

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809

Why should I have to source it?  I WROTE that message.   laugh

Please take a look at the signature on it.   Grin

Well Duh. And by the way the link no longer works.
And by the way by the way: I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.
btw, the whole speech is here (as of June 13, 2011 the link works)
http://evlogeite.com/?page_id=16
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
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Posts: 16,382


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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2011, 06:05:12 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
And by the way the link no longer works.

The Wayback Machine has archived the Patriarch's speech.  Click "Impatient?" at bottom right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090904035040/http://geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Quote
I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.

I don't imagine that geocities would have altered or falsified the Patriarch's speech.


So you posted a link which we need the Wayback Machine to view.
See, Irish Hermit, my issue is nothing more than the fact that you simply copied and posted a three year old post of yours which you posted three years ago on a different discussion forum, and did so without even bothering to check whether the links in it still work (and they didn't, which kind of suggests the post is not timeless wisdom and should have been reviewed before reposting). Also I notice that it's almost 3 years to the day that you posted this. Are we coming up to the anniversary of something?

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve.  

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809

Why should I have to source it?  I WROTE that message.   laugh

Please take a look at the signature on it.   Grin

Well Duh. And by the way the link no longer works.
And by the way by the way: I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.
btw, the whole speech is here (as of June 13, 2011 the link works)
http://evlogeite.com/?page_id=16
Fabulous. At least you didn't copy and paste a three year old post of yours to provide that.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 06:06:06 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2011, 06:05:46 AM »

"Of these heresies diffused, with what sufferings the LORD hath known, over a great part of the world, was formerly Arianism, and at present is the Papacy. This, too, as the former has become extinct, although now flourishing, shall not endure, but pass away and be cast down, and a great voice from heaven shall cry: It is cast down (Rev. xii. 10)."
Encyclical of the Eastern [Orthodox] Patriarchs, 1848

"the Orthodox Church has never ceased to intimate to the Papal Church, having clearly and explicitly set forth that so long as the latter perseveres in her innovations, and the orthodox Church adheres to the divine and apostolic traditions of Christianity, during which the Western Churches were of the same mind and were united with the Churches of the East, so long is it a vain and empty thing to talk of union."
The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895 [of Constantinople]

"to any sound-thinking Orthodox person the idea could not occur to receive communion in a Protestant or Catholic church, and this because with all his being, organically, he knows with an inner intelligible knowledge that there is no holy Communion anywhere but in the Church of Christ ... . There is God, there is His One, only Holy, Apostolic Church, and there is the whole human race, all called to God through His holy Church. All other religions, so-called Christian, monotheistic or pagan, all without the slightest exception, whether it be Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam or Buddhism—all are obstacles placed by the devil as his traps between the Church of Christ and the whole human race."
Ecumenism
A Report to the Sobor of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
by Archbishop Vitaly of Montreal and Canada
1967

"We believe that our holy Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ, which possesses the fulness of grace and truth and, in consequence thereof, unbroken apostolic succession.
On the contrary, the "churches" and "confessions" of the West, having in many ways perverted the Faith of the Gospel, the apostles and the fathers, are deprived of sanctifying grace, of real mysteries and apostolic succession.
The Holy Mountain is convinced, not without great anxiety, that although the Orthodox are making many concessions and compromises to the Roman Catholics, the latter antithetically continue to adhere to their own errors which have served as the cause of their schism from the Orthodox Church and later led to the Protestant split. Thus, the Pope, during his visit to the center of Orthodoxy in the patriarchal cathedral, did not in the least hesitate to proclaim that he was coming to Constantinople as the successor of Peter, "who as the ultimate authority has the responsibility of superintending the unity of all, to guarantee the agreement of the Church of God in fidelity and in the 'faith which was once delivered unto the saints' (Jude 3)" (Episkepsis, ibid., p. 9). In other words, the Pope defended (papal) infallibility and primacy; and there are many other actions and manifestations which the Pope has effected on behalf of uniatism. We remember the establishment of diplomatic relations between the Greek Government and the Vatican which, even though it may justify papism, is unjust and strikes out at the Mother and Nourisher of our [Greek] nation, the Orthodox Church."
The Announcement of the Extraordinary Joint Conference of the Sacred Community of the Holy Mount Athos
1980

" ... the Pope was received as though he were a canonical (proper) bishop of Rome. During the service, the Pope wore an omophoron; he was addressed by the Ecumenical Patriarch with the greeting “blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord” as though it were Christ the Lord; he blessed the congregation and he was commemorated as “most holy” and “His Beatitude the Bishop of Rome”. Furthermore, all of the Pope’s officiating clergy wore an omophoron during the Orthodox Divine Liturgy; also, the reciting of the Lord’s Prayer, his liturgical embrace with the Patriarch, were displays of something more than common prayer. And all of this, when the papist institution has not budged at all from its heretical teachings and its policy; on the contrary, the Pope is in fact visibly promoting and trying to reinforce Unia along with the Papist dogmas on primacy and infallibility, and is going even further, with inter-faith common prayers and the pan-religious hegemony of the Pope of Rome that is discerned therein."
The Official Statement from Mt. Athos on the Pope's Visit to the Phanar (2006)

The Orthodox don't 'need'
 the Catholics ... Catholics need Orthodoxy!





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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2011, 06:10:03 AM »

So you posted a link which we need the Wayback Machine to view.

Thank heavens you noticed the link was out of date and I had the opportunity to provide another site where it is archived.  It's a significant speech by the Patriarch.  I'll archive it myself as a Word.doc in case it disappears from all websites.

Quote
See, Irish Hermit, my issue is nothing more than the fact that you simply copied and posted a three year old post of yours which you posted three years ago on a different discussion forum,


I see that it first appears on the Forum in rudimentary form (it's a work in process)  on 1st December 2007
See message 3
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13626.msg190516.html#msg190516

Quote
Also I notice that it's almost 3 years to the day that you posted this. Are we coming up to the anniversary of something?

I have to say I have never celebrated anniversaries of my posts on the Forum, but if we did it would be the 1st December.    Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2011, 06:15:26 AM »

Fabulous. At least you didn't copy and paste a three year old post of yours to provide that.

What's the beef with three years?!!

This entire thread is based on the posting  by Peter of something from 1995 - that's sixteen years!   laugh
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2011, 06:21:10 AM »

So you posted a link which we need the Wayback Machine to view.

Thank heavens you noticed the link was out of date and I had the opportunity to provide another site where it is archived.  It's a significant speech by the Patriarch.  I'll archive it myself as a Word.doc in case it disappears from all websites.

Quote
See, Irish Hermit, my issue is nothing more than the fact that you simply copied and posted a three year old post of yours which you posted three years ago on a different discussion forum,


I see that it first appears on the Forum in rudimentary form (it's a work in process)  on 1st December 2007
See message 3
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13626.msg190516.html#msg190516

Quote
Also I notice that it's almost 3 years to the day that you posted this. Are we coming up to the anniversary of something?

I have to say I have never celebrated anniversaries of my posts on the Forum, but if we did it would be the 1st December.    Smiley
Ah but the post you copied and pasted to this thread (without telling us it was a copy and paste) is your 17th June 2009 post on Irenikon where you had your fantastic idea of completing the development of your thoughts by adding yet another inane "title" to the Patriarch of Constantinople. Perhaps the birth of that ingenious thought is the anniversary you are celebrating?
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Posts: 37,817



« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2011, 06:21:50 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
And by the way the link no longer works.

The Wayback Machine has archived the Patriarch's speech.  Click "Impatient?" at bottom right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090904035040/http://geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Quote
I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.

I don't imagine that geocities would have altered or falsified the Patriarch's speech.


So you posted a link which we need the Wayback Machine to view.
See, Irish Hermit, my issue is nothing more than the fact that you simply copied and posted a three year old post of yours which you posted three years ago on a different discussion forum, and did so without even bothering to check whether the links in it still work (and they didn't, which kind of suggests the post is not timeless wisdom and should have been reviewed before reposting). Also I notice that it's almost 3 years to the day that you posted this. Are we coming up to the anniversary of something?

There was a very even-handed article in Touchstone which dealt with, in particular, This Rock's assertion that

Quote
While Patriarch Bartholomew may be ahead of many of his brethren in his openness to Rome, most of them are on the trail he is blazing, not the side route that Young and Schaeffer have strayed onto.

The most ecumenical Patriarch of Micklegarth His
Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew scandalised the Catholics with his
presentation at the Jesuit University of Georgetown in 1997 when he
declared:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Full text at
http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.   Other Orthodox posit our divisions
in doctrines and in matters of authority.  These are externals which we can discuss and resolve.  

But Patriarch Bartholomew places our estrangement in our very ontology and this will be much much harder
to remove, if it is possible at all!


You really should get into the habit of sourcing your cut and paste posts. Here is the source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/23809

Why should I have to source it?  I WROTE that message.   laugh

Please take a look at the signature on it.   Grin

Well Duh. And by the way the link no longer works.
And by the way by the way: I can't believe you put any value on a geocities website.
btw, the whole speech is here (as of June 13, 2011 the link works)
http://evlogeite.com/?page_id=16
Fabulous. At least you didn't copy and paste a three year old post of yours to provide that.
Too much work. the search function here doesn't work like it used to.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2011, 06:32:44 AM »

I bet pounds to pennies that the next post will be an "exegesis" by Irish Hermit of his "titles" for the Patriarch of Constantinople.
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2011, 06:33:27 AM »

It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that was founded by Christ himself, that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is this same Church, that the Church of Rome willingly broke away from out of her own pride and lust for power.

That I think does something of an injustice to the situation.

Rome was faced with many social and cultural problems bought about by the invasions of the Franks.  From my understanding of the history, it was the various waring kings (small 'k') that resulted in an unstable social and economic situation across the West.  Rome under Papal leadership became engrossed in surviving in a sea of barbarian invaders. The Pope and the Western Church was the only universal social order with a bureaucracy that could actually manage the changing situation.  It was almost as if the Pope was thrown into taking over running the place.

I am not necessarily on the side of Rome here - just adding some balance to the discussion.

What I am suggesting is that the Western Church was faced with a situation that did not have to be face by Constantinople - well not at this period.  

The situation deteriorated over time but there many any number of attempts to restore relationships.

There were other 'incidents' which did not harbour well for any reconciliation and the final nail went into the coffin when Rome sent the Crusaders into Constantinople.      

Quote
I'm sorry, but it is clear to me that while both the Apostolic Church, and the Church of Rome received wounds during the Great Schism, it is only the Church of Rome whose wounds still fester and decay. She has tried to nurse those wounds, and even cover them up with all sorts of sweet smelling ointments. But her wounds cannot, and will not ever heal unless she reunites herself to the Body of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox Church has been the father waiting for his prodigal son to return. But as of yet, that prodigal son still lays in the pig pen, delusional and enjoying his voracious life.

Colourfully put - but I take your point.

Quote
Ecumenism, when probably done, is intended to show the Church of Rome the error of her ways, and to light the way back home. We will continue calling, showing the way home like a lighthouse calling ships home. But we will not, cannot ever go out to join the Church of Rome outside of the walls of our sacred and holy Church.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Romophobe. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is probably the only church other than the EO or OO that can help defeat many of the evils of today. I also enjoy learning about the Roman Catholic Church, and seeing how she still retains some bit of orthodoxy within her. But that still doesn't mean we are ever going to compromise our own faith to meet the Church of Rome halfway. We cannot, and will not ever compromise on our faith. We will talk, we will discuss, we will learn, but we cannot compromise or change.

Again I tend to agree.

Quote
The answer the OP... We don't need the Roman Catholic Church. We are simply calling out to a long-lost brother who has been living in the world, as a part of the world for a long time.

Yes, but in the attempt I suggest one needs to mindful that one does not fall into the trap of the 'other' brother.  It was the 'other' brother who got into something of a tizzy fit claiming that he was the one who carried the weight of working the farm in his brother's absence.  
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 06:34:58 AM »

I bet pounds to pennies that the next post will be an "exegesis" by Irish Hermit of his "titles" for the Patriarch of Constantinople.


I have the pounds - thank you.
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2011, 06:40:24 AM »

I bet pounds to pennies that the next post will be an "exegesis" by Irish Hermit of his "titles" for the Patriarch of Constantinople.


I have the pounds - thank you.
Disclaimer- I meant Irish Hermit's next post.
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2011, 07:02:12 AM »


I would be interested in any insights into Fr Alexey (Ambrose) Young's comments in the article referenced by the OP.

In 1990 Fr Alexey left the Russian Church Abroad and entered the Antiochian Church in order to work as a Western Rite priest. Later he returned to the Russian Church but later again he has become a member of the Greek Orthodox Church.    Interesting to know if he wrote what he wrote as a Greek Orthodox priest?
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2011, 07:08:07 AM »

Patriarch Bartholomew:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Does anybody here agree with the Patriarch that it is our ontological difference which makes unity impossible?   How do you understand the meaning of ontology in the context of His Holiness' speech?
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2011, 08:34:37 AM »

"to any sound-thinking Orthodox person the idea could not occur to receive communion in a Protestant or Catholic church, and this because with all his being, organically, he knows with an inner intelligible knowledge that there is no holy Communion anywhere but in the Church of Christ ... . There is God, there is His One, only Holy, Apostolic Church, and there is the whole human race, all called to God through His holy Church. All other religions, so-called Christian, monotheistic or pagan, all without the slightest exception, whether it be Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam or Buddhism—all are obstacles placed by the devil as his traps between the Church of Christ and the whole human race."
Ecumenism
A Report to the Sobor of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
by Archbishop Vitaly of Montreal and Canada
1967

Two things: 1. Yikes! 2. I notice the report says that "All other religions ... are obstacles placed by the devil ... ", and then in the list of examples it mentions Catholicism and Protestantism but not Oriental Orthodoxy. Should I take it that Oriental Orthodoxy is included anyhow, since it says "all other religions"?
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2011, 08:42:29 AM »

Although His All-Holiness certainly often appears with all the trappings of an enthusiastic ecumenist,
in fact his own assessment is much more dour than other Orthodox.

Interesting ... I've often thought much of the same thing regarding Pope John Paul II.
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2011, 04:20:19 PM »

I bet pounds to pennies that the next post will be an "exegesis" by Irish Hermit of his "titles" for the Patriarch of Constantinople.



I put up a buck .. thats 'one hundred english pounds' you owe me ... and, uh, no 'disclaimers' after the bet ... where i comes from, that could get you a couple ounces of lead ...
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2011, 07:10:18 PM »

I bet pounds to pennies that the next post will be an "exegesis" by Irish Hermit of his "titles" for the Patriarch of Constantinople.



I put up a buck .. thats 'one hundred english pounds' you owe me ... and, uh, no 'disclaimers' after the bet ... where i comes from, that could get you a couple ounces of lead ...


The atmosphere here is starting to make me nervous. I expect John Wayne to walk in any time.
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« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2011, 07:27:33 PM »

I put up a buck .. thats 'one hundred english pounds' you owe me ...
You really need to check the exchange rates. In fact, you should be asking for Australian Dollars if you have any sense. Smiley

The atmosphere here is starting to make me nervous. I expect John Wayne to walk in any time.
LOL!
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« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2011, 07:47:30 PM »

Patriarch Bartholomew:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Does anybody here agree with the Patriarch that it is our ontological difference which makes unity impossible?

Yes.  Reality is a social construct and that construct is culturally informed.

Quote
How do you understand the meaning of ontology in the context of His Holiness' speech?

It would seem the Patriarch is indicating that there are difference theological constructs of our existence.  For instance, from an Orthodoxy perspective we are made in the image of God, an image which needs repair while the West sees humanity as made of totally depraved and only through God's justice one might, might, obtain something of God's mercy.

Would love the reference for his speech.
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« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2011, 08:13:15 PM »

Would love the reference for his speech.

http://evlogeite.com/?page_id=16

Btw, nice to see another non-Orthodox.  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2011, 09:19:48 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Patriarch Bartholomew:

"The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different.
Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one
common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in
substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible."


Does anybody here agree with the Patriarch that it is our ontological difference which makes unity impossible?

Yes.  Reality is a social construct and that construct is culturally informed.
The Church, however, is Christ as "I AM," and He is not socially contructed nor culturally informed.

Quote
How do you understand the meaning of ontology in the context of His Holiness' speech?

It would seem the Patriarch is indicating that there are difference theological constructs of our existence.  For instance, from an Orthodoxy perspective we are made in the image of God, an image which needs repair while the West sees humanity as made of totally depraved and only through God's justice one might, might, obtain something of God's mercy.

Would love the reference for his speech.
The Spirit is descended!
btw, the whole speech is here (as of June 13, 2011 the link works)
http://evlogeite.com/?page_id=16
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« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2011, 09:48:35 PM »

The Church, however, is Christ as "I AM," and He is not socially contructed nor culturally informed.
But the question in this case would be "which Church is Christ?" Unless you subscribe to the idea that there can be more than one Church (eg "Branch Theory"), then only one of them can be Christ. The existence of two or more separate bodies claiming to be the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" seems to me to make them ontologically different. One of them is Christ as experienced in the Community which forms His Body, the Church (which cannot be said to be devoid of social constructs since it is both a Divine and Human entity), and the others are social constructs which are just that.
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