OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 31, 2014, 05:17:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Liturgy in the Serbian Church  (Read 3476 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« on: August 22, 2005, 05:20:39 PM »

I have never been to a Serbian church before, so on Sunday I attended a Sebian Orthodox church for liturgy and there were a few things that that happened during the liturgy that I've not seen at any other Orthodox church before and I was hoping that someone who is familiar with Serbian traditions could elaborate on these things.

At the Little Entrance, there were 5 altar servers that came out, one carrying the cross, two holding fans, two holding candles, and they came out and stood in front of the ambo and all faced the priest. [Side Note] At the OCA church I had been attending, the two servers holding the fans would stay on the ambo and face the icons of Christ and the Theotokos located on the iconostasis, the two servers with the candles would be in front of the ambo facing the priest and the server with the cross would be facing the priest, but he would be located behind the icon in the center of the church. [/Side Note]

Is this variation just a difference between Russian and Serbian "style" traditions?

Before the Trisagion, one of the altar servers came out of the south deacon's door, faced northwest and loudly read a couple verses of something, which I've not seen done before. It was definitely not the Epistle - any clue what that may have been?

After the Trisagion, a young lady came forward to receive a blessing to read the Epistle, and then she went to the back of the church and literally, read the Epistle - no chanting, just straightforward reading.ÂÂ  Huh Is this the norm?

During the Gospel reading, only 2 altar servers came out (even though 5 were there), carrying candles and the stood in front of the ambo facing eachother during the reading. [Side Note] At the OCA church, two of the servers would be on either side of the priest, holding the fans over the Gospel, the other two would be holding candles in front of the ambo and facing the priest, and the last server would hold the cross in the same place he was during the Little Entrance. [/Side Note]

Following the Gospel, the priest began to proceed with the liturgy and there was no sermon at this time.

During the Great Entrance, the servers came out in the same fashion as they had during the Little Entrance and stood in the same places. [Side Note] At the OCA Church, the servers would be in the exact same location as they had been during the Gospel reading, except for the server that held the cross would instead be holding the censer in front of the ambo, facing the priest and in between the two servers holding the candles. [/Side Note]

During the Creed, they used "One, Holy, Ecumenic and Apostolic Church", instead of Catholic. Huh

During the Anaphora when the priest said, "and make this Bread the precious Body of thy Christ" one of the serves loudly rang a bell. When the priest said, "and that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ", the same server rang the bell again for a few seconds as he had before. Then when the priest said, "Making the Change by Thy Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen." the server again rang the bell, this time for a couple seconds longer than the previous times. I've not seen this done at any other Orthodox Church before - is this a Serbian tradition?

[Side Note] At the OCA church, when the priest said, "Take! Eat! This is My Body, which is broken for you, for the remission of sins." the bell outside the church would be rung once. When the priest said, "Drink of it, all of you! This is My Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many, for the remission of sins." the outer bell was rung once again and then no more bells would be rung until, "Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary." I am assuming that the single intoning of the bells at this particular OCA church was/is a carry over from earlier when the people of this church were Byzantine Catholic, because I've not seen this done at any other Orthodox churches before either...?ÂÂ  Huh [/Side Note]

Back to the Serbian Church...ÂÂ  Smiley

After the "Holy Things for the Holy" instead of the Commion of the People taking place, the collection plate was starting to be passed around (and I was not not looking up at the time because I was scrambling for my wallet) and I heard the priest at the pulpit starting his sermon...?!?ÂÂ  Shocked

After his sermon, the priest went back into the altar, came out with the Chalice and said, "In the Fear of God and with faith and love, draw near" then a single altar server came out of altar holding a card which had the "I believe and I confess..." prayers on it and one woman forward, took the card from the altar server, stood facing the priest and said the pre-communion prayers by herself while the rest of the church stood silent. Then, she alone partook of the Communion and afterwards the priest blessed the people with the chailce as usual. [Side Note] I've been to churches of all jurisdictional stripes, including ROCOR and the GOCÂÂ  - and I've never once before only seen the pre-communion prayers recited alone, nor have I seen only one person receive of the Holy Gifts. Is this a common practice in the Serbian Church? [/Side Note]

Any insight on the above would be greatly appreciated.ÂÂ  Grin

In Christ,
Aaron
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 05:26:54 PM by Arystarcus » Logged
Elisha
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,452


« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 05:55:09 PM »

Epistle reading:
The Antiochian parish I grew up in (a former EOC parish) usually has lay people read the Epistle.  They stand at the very front of the Ambon and just read it, not straight chant at all (as you said).  I don't like it - it bothers me.  AFAIK, you all ways face the altar during readings unless you are the priest reading the Gospel during Liturgy.

Altar servers positions:
I think it depends on who is reading what and where they are facing - not sure.

Prayers before communion & commuion:
That seems REALLY weird to me.  I've heard of the priest saving the homily for after Communion (mainly because of lax faithful coming in really late), but not right before communion - that is weird.

I've only been to one Serbian DL, and it was Hierarchical with +Longin.  Everything at this service seemed to be similar to what my OCA parish did. 
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 10:21:52 PM »

I can only answer a couple of the issues.

We have the sermon after communion.  We may only have one communicant . . . or twenty.  It all depends.  The rest of it I couldn't tell you because I've never seen it done that way.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
sin_vladimirov
ANAXIOS!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 477

ICXC NIKA


« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 11:05:22 PM »

I have never been to a Serbian church before, so on Sunday I attended a Sebian Orthodox church for liturgy and there were a few things that that happened during the liturgy that I've not seen at any other Orthodox church before and I was hoping that someone who is familiar with Serbian traditions could elaborate on these things.
I am familiar with Bosnian (Zvornik Tuzla Episkopia) Serb Orthodox Tradition, it could be different from place to place. Some things that you have mentioned are not know to me; but then again, here in Australia I go to "ecumenical Serbian Church" (that is it is Serbs from all parts - Church) so, these "Australian" customs are different from those I seen back home, and they are different from some others.

Quote
At the Little Entrance, there were 5 altar servers that came out, one carrying the cross, two holding fans, two holding candles, and they came out and stood in front of the ambo and all faced the priest. [Side Note] At the OCA church I had been attending, the two servers holding the fans would stay on the ambo and face the icons of Christ and the Theotokos located on the iconostasis, the two servers with the candles would be in front of the ambo facing the priest and the server with the cross would be facing the priest, but he would be located behind the icon in the center of the church. [/Side Note]

Is this variation just a difference between Russian and Serbian "style" traditions?
I am not sure, I go to Greek, Russian and Serbian Churches in Perth, Australia, and they all do it this "serbian style way", and that way is done back in Bosnia and Serbia (Tuzla and Krusevac).

Quote
Before the Trisagion, one of the altar servers came out of the south deacon's door, faced northwest and loudly read a couple verses of something, which I've not seen done before. It was definitely not the Epistle - any clue what that may have been?
He could be reading a Psalm.

Quote
After the Trisagion, a young lady came forward to receive a blessing to read the Epistle, and then she went to the back of the church and literally, read the Epistle - no chanting, just straightforward reading.  Huh Is this the norm?
It is not a norm, but she doesn't know how to chant, so she read.

Quote
During the Gospel reading, only 2 altar servers came out (even though 5 were there), carrying candles and the stood in front of the ambo facing eachother during the reading. [Side Note] At the OCA church, two of the servers would be on either side of the priest, holding the fans over the Gospel, the other two would be holding candles in front of the ambo and facing the priest, and the last server would hold the cross in the same place he was during the Little Entrance. [/Side Note]

Following the Gospel, the priest began to proceed with the liturgy and there was no sermon at this time.

During the Great Entrance, the servers came out in the same fashion as they had during the Little Entrance and stood in the same places. [Side Note] At the OCA Church, the servers would be in the exact same location as they had been during the Gospel reading, except for the server that held the cross would instead be holding the censer in front of the ambo, facing the priest and in between the two servers holding the candles. [/Side Note]
Again, I have never seen it done any other way.

Quote
During the Creed, they used "One, Holy, Ecumenic and Apostolic Church", instead of Catholic. Huh
Serbs do not translate word as Catholic but as Saborna. We all know what it is, but Croats are "catholics" (latins) and we are not Croats.

Quote
During the Anaphora when the priest said, "and make this Bread the precious Body of thy Christ" one of the serves loudly rang a bell. When the priest said, "and that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ", the same server rang the bell again for a few seconds as he had before. Then when the priest said, "Making the Change by Thy Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen." the server again rang the bell, this time for a couple seconds longer than the previous times. I've not seen this done at any other Orthodox Church before - is this a Serbian tradition?
Serbs and Russians do it in Perth, Greeks do not. I will ask about it, got no clue why... I love it though.... It is the way Slavic Liturgy is sung, the bells fit so perfectly (to me, atleast).

Quote
[Side Note] At the OCA church, when the priest said, "Take! Eat! This is My Body, which is broken for you, for the remission of sins." the bell outside the church would be rung once. When the priest said, "Drink of it, all of you! This is My Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many, for the remission of sins." the outer bell was rung once again and then no more bells would be rung until, "Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary." I am assuming that the single intoning of the bells at this particular OCA church was/is a carry over from earlier when the people of this church were Byzantine Catholic, because I've not seen this done at any other Orthodox churches before either...?  Huh [/Side Note]

Back to the Serbian Church...  Smiley

After the "Holy Things for the Holy" instead of the Commion of the People taking place, the collection plate was starting to be passed around (and I was not not looking up at the time because I was scrambling for my wallet) and I heard the priest at the pulpit starting his sermon...?!?  Shocked

After his sermon, the priest went back into the altar, came out with the Chalice and said, "In the Fear of God and with faith and love, draw near" then a single altar server came out of altar holding a card which had the "I believe and I confess..." prayers on it and one woman forward, took the card from the altar server, stood facing the priest and said the pre-communion prayers by herself while the rest of the church stood silent. Then, she alone partook of the Communion and afterwards the priest blessed the people with the chailce as usual. [Side Note] I've been to churches of all jurisdictional stripes, including ROCOR and the GOC  - and I've never once before only seen the pre-communion prayers recited alone, nor have I seen only one person receive of the Holy Gifts. Is this a common practice in the Serbian Church? [/Side Note]

Any insight on the above would be greatly appreciated.  Grin

In Christ,
Aaron
Now that is something new, I have not seen it either, but hey... it's Serbian Church, must be right!

I will ask about, see what the old ones tell me.

Many years.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 11:21:57 PM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

Lord have mercy.
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2005, 07:37:49 AM »

I can't speak in response to much of what has been said above, but in the western rite, the bells are rung in church during the Canon in exactly the same place - after the Dominical Words and at the Epiclesis, so that the faithful present would be alerted to the important action at the altar (as many would traditionally have been engaged in their own devotions at this point).  In some churches, what was known as a "sacring bell" is also rung in the belfry to alert the those in the surrounding area that the Consecration is taking place.  I don't know whether this helps, but it seems that this is one of those liturgical areas where East and West meet.
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2005, 09:33:42 AM »

We have the sermon after communion.ÂÂ  We may only have one communicant . . . or twenty.ÂÂ  It all depends.ÂÂ  The rest of it I couldn't tell you because I've never seen it done that way.

Ditto
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 11:17:15 PM »

Elisha

Quote
Epistle reading:
The Antiochian parish I grew up in (a former EOC parish) usually has lay people read the Epistle.  They stand at the very front of the Ambon and just read it, not straight chant at all (as you said).  I don't like it - it bothers me

I didn't care for it too much myself, doesn't seem too "Orthodox"...  Wink

But I figured the reason this happened was as Sin_V said:

"It is not a norm, but she doesn't know how to chant, so she read."

Quote
Prayers before communion & commuion:
That seems REALLY weird to me.  I've heard of the priest saving the homily for after Communion (mainly because of lax faithful coming in really late), but not right before communion - that is weird.

I thought it was a little out of place, but everyoen else in the church didn't seem surprised by it - so it must be done that way all the time.

I once went to a Ukrainian Orthodox church and at the same point of the liturgy, (right before the Communion, moments before the priest came out with the chalice), he would come out and give all the anouncements for the coming week. Now that seemed out of place! That the reverence of the moment for me...   Roll Eyes  It was like that every time I went to that church and I just couldn't get over it. It was too bad really, because other than that I really liked that church.

cizinec

Quote
We have the sermon after communion.  We may only have one communicant . . . or twenty.  It all depends.  The rest of it I couldn't tell you because I've never seen it done that way.

It wasn't the fact that there was only one communicant that threw me off, it was the fact that the priest seemed to know that only this woman had planned on comign to communion, because as soon as she communed he immediately went back to the altar.

I also was surprised that no one else said the pre-communion prayers, i guess i was just used to what they did at the OCA church.

Sin_V

Quote
I am not sure, I go to Greek, Russian and Serbian Churches in Perth, Australia, and they all do it this "serbian style way", and that way is done back in Bosnia and Serbia (Tuzla and Krusevac).

Hmm, then maybe the OCA church just does it their "own way"?   Huh

Quote
Serbs do not translate word as Catholic but as Saborna. We all know what it is, but Croats are "catholics" (latins) and we are not Croats.

haha!   Cheesy

Quote
Serbs and Russians do it in Perth, Greeks do not. I will ask about it, got no clue why... I love it though.... It is the way Slavic Liturgy is sung, the bells fit so perfectly (to me, atleast).

I certainly do not object to it! I've always had a thing for "smells and bells".  Grin

Quote
I will ask about, see what the old ones tell me.

Thanks! I look forward to hear what they have to say.  Smiley

Thanks for all of your informative replies everybody! 
In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 11:32:23 PM »

Something else to consider that especially in the diaspora all sorts fo crazy things happen and any given parish may not really represent the tradition they claim to represent.  i.e. the GOA and actual Greek practice can often differ a great deal. 
Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 11:53:58 PM »

Something else to consider that especially in the diaspora all sorts fo crazy things happen and any given parish may not really represent the tradition they claim to represent.ÂÂ  i.e. the GOA and actual Greek practice can often differ a great deal.ÂÂ  

Touché.  Cool
Logged
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 01:43:21 AM »

What you seem to have experienced is normal liturgical differences between parishes. Its gonna be different everywhere you go.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2005, 01:45:45 AM »

Though I'm not sure how many of those practices are "normative." The single communicant is kinda weird.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2005, 06:52:25 AM »

If the priest knoew that she had been the only one to have confessed, (and presumably, he would), then would it really have been so odd that he knew that only she was going to receive? Huh
Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2005, 03:33:13 PM »

Michael,

I suppose that would depend on if that priest expected his communicants to make a weekly confession prior to receiving Communion.

Is making your confession before every communion a practice in the Serbian church?

I do not know of many churches/jurisdictions that expect communicants to confess before receiving. I've heard that it's commonplace in ROCOR (though I do not know that as fact) and I would not be surprised if it was that way in the Old Calendar/"traditionalist" groups as well.

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2005, 04:48:31 PM »

Unfortunately the practice of rare communion did develop in many places in the Old World.  As a result the preperation for recieving communion became much more rigerous - including a three day fast and confession the day prior or the day of communion (plus a few Akathists and canons).  So that is why on the average Sunday there will be few communicants in some strongly ethnic Slavic churches (and in some Greek Churches, but this is not as common among them IME). 

The "battle" of restoring more frequent communion has been an interesting one in recent history.  Some books that document in are Constantine Cavarnos' biography of St. Macarios of Corinth and also the biography of Elder Haralampos of Dionysiou recently published in English (I read it on the Holy Mountain, not sure where you can get it here other than St. Anthony's). 

This is also interesting from Patriarch Pavle http://www.oea.serbian-church.net/info/showarticle.php?article=w7
Logged
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2005, 05:18:27 PM »

Michael,

I suppose that would depend on if that priest expected his communicants to make a weekly confession prior to receiving Communion.

I'm sorry.  You're quite right.  I had assumed that as given, but you quite rightly point out that it may not be the case.  It would certainly explain the situation, though.

Quote
I've heard that it's commonplace in ROCOR (though I do not know that as fact)

Yes, you are quite right, Aaron.  This is why I had seen it as the norm, as ROCOR is my jurisdiction.

M
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2006, 02:35:57 PM »

I might bring some light on the "unusual" things seen in that Serbian Church.
Reading the description of the peculiarities of the Serbian Church, I recognised right away-except for some minor details-the same liturgical practices we follow in our Orthodox Church in Transylvania and Banat (Romania) which often differ from what other Orthodox Romanians do, but match what Serbians do, as it seems. Back in my home parish in Transylvania, we also would ring the bells at the moment of Consecration, kneel from the "words of instution" through the commemoration of the Mother of God, when we would rise.
The sermon also would also be placed right before the Communion; at "One is Holy, one is Lord..." the plate would be passed around, the number of communicants would be, unfortunately, from very few to none (most often), except for Lent, Advent and other Fasts or Feasts;
The prayers before the reception of the Holy Communion are recited by the communicants alone, on their knees, usually.
The type of chant used in Transylvania and Banat is very close to the Serbian chant and very different from the Greek Psaltic Chant.
All these things are explainable considering the domination the Metropolitan See of Karlovitz held over our Church until about 1860 and, of course, the Roman and Greek Catholic influence.
Logged
Subdeacon Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 195



« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 05:26:45 AM »

I have never been to a Serbian church before, so on Sunday I attended a Sebian Orthodox church for liturgy and there were a few things that that happened during the liturgy that I've not seen at any other Orthodox church before and I was hoping that someone who is familiar with Serbian traditions could elaborate on these things.

I came across this thread while looking for something else but as I've found it, albeint very late, I may as well reply.

Quote
At the Little Entrance, there were 5 altar servers that came out, one carrying the cross, two holding fans, two holding candles, and they came out and stood in front of the ambo and all faced the priest. [Side Note] At the OCA church I had been attending, the two servers holding the fans would stay on the ambo and face the icons of Christ and the Theotokos located on the iconostasis, the two servers with the candles would be in front of the ambo facing the priest and the server with the cross would be facing the priest, but he would be located behind the icon in the center of the church. [/Side Note]

There are various practices at the Lesser Entrance.  In some places, the clergy will descend from the solea at the north side with the servers while in others they will simply move across it to the centre.  What the servers do will often be dictated by this, as they fit around what the clergy do.  I have seen various arrangements.  What seems strange to me, though, is the Cross being carried.  Having the Cross carried in the Liturgy is a primatial privilege as far as I am aware.

Quote
Before the Trisagion, one of the altar servers came out of the south deacon's door, faced northwest and loudly read a couple verses of something, which I've not seen done before. It was definitely not the Epistle - any clue what that may have been?

Absolutely no idea.  Smiley

Quote
After the Trisagion, a young lady came forward to receive a blessing to read the Epistle, and then she went to the back of the church and literally, read the Epistle - no chanting, just straightforward reading.ÂÂ  Huh Is this the norm?

If there is no reader and nobody capable of chanting, then perhaps she was just offering what service she could.

Quote
During the Gospel reading, only 2 altar servers came out (even though 5 were there), carrying candles and the stood in front of the ambo facing eachother during the reading. [Side Note] At the OCA church, two of the servers would be on either side of the priest, holding the fans over the Gospel, the other two would be holding candles in front of the ambo and facing the priest, and the last server would hold the cross in the same place he was during the Little Entrance. [/Side Note]

If there were enough servers, I also would have ensured that there were two with lights and two with fans.  However, again, this business of the Cross...

Quote
Following the Gospel, the priest began to proceed with the liturgy and there was no sermon at this time.

This is the ancient and liturgically correct place for the sermon if there is one but different traditions have developed here it is given later.

Quote
During the Great Entrance, the servers came out in the same fashion as they had during the Little Entrance and stood in the same places. [Side Note] At the OCA Church, the servers would be in the exact same location as they had been during the Gospel reading, except for the server that held the cross would instead be holding the censer in front of the ambo, facing the priest and in between the two servers holding the candles. [/Side Note]

The deacon, not a server, holds the censer at the Lesser Entrance.  If there is no deacon, then the censer ideally isn't carried in the procession.  However, this would mean the server moving quickly from the table of Oblation, back to where the censer is kept to put it away, to quickly grabbing a candle and finding his place in the procession.  If there aren't enough servers, sometimes a concession is made and the server discreetly carries it in the procession.

Quote
During the Creed, they used "One, Holy, Ecumenic and Apostolic Church", instead of Catholic. Huh

Their meanings seem to me to overlap.

Quote
Back to the Serbian Church...ÂÂ  Smiley

After the "Holy Things for the Holy" instead of the Commion of the People taking place, the collection plate was starting to be passed around (and I was not not looking up at the time because I was scrambling for my wallet) and I heard the priest at the pulpit starting his sermon...?!?ÂÂ  Shocked

The taking of a monetary offering at this point is completely out of character with the Byzantine Liturgy.  The act of the offering of the people in our rite is actually the handing in of the prosphora for the Proskimede, which goes right back to Byzantium and the Liturgy at Agia Sofia.  The people would bake bread for the eucharist, inscribed with the names of those to be commemorated, and hand it, along with wine and monetary gifts, to the deacons before the Liturgy.  The deacons would prepare the gifts accordingly, before the Liurgy started, selecting the bread to be used for the Eucharist and noting the names of the people to be commemorated, then the gifts of bread and wine would be transferred into the church at the Great Entrance.  To this day, we hand in the prosphora before the Liturgy with lists of names so that our people may be commemorated, (although many Greek and Antiochian parishes don't bother with this so much these days, though some do).  Although these usually no longer come from our own labours, this still seems to me to be the best time to make any other offerings.  As such it is probably better if there is some sort of receptacle into which people can put their monetary donations before the Liturgy.  This business of passing around a collection plate during the service comes from the western rites, where, anciently, they had a procession of the people giving their offerings of bread, wine, money, and so forth at the sanctuary at the part of the service called the Offertory.  This procession was later clericalised but has in recent times in western churches been restored to the people.  Some of our Eatsern Orthodox churches have taken up this custom of passing a plate around, but because such an Offertory procession was never a feature of the Byzantine Rite, there is no appropriate point in our services to do this.  As such, it is usually a disruptive distraction as you discovered from your experience of it being done during the sermon and immediately before Communion.  In my experience of this in Russian, Greek, and Antiochian churches, it has been done during the Anaphora, shortly after we have been told to lift up our hearts, and declared that have done so and that they are with the Lord.  It seems very wrong to me.

As for the sermon after the communion of the clergy, this is one of the common variations on the Liturgy.  The books do not prescribe anything during the communion of the clergy.  As such, some places sing an extended version of the communion verse, others read the synaxarion, others pray the preparatory prayers for communion, and some give a sermon at this time.  I am sure there are other customs of which I'm unaware.

Quote
After his sermon, the priest went back into the altar, came out with the Chalice and said, "In the Fear of God and with faith and love, draw near" then a single altar server came out of altar holding a card which had the "I believe and I confess..." prayers on it and one woman forward, took the card from the altar server, stood facing the priest and said the pre-communion prayers by herself while the rest of the church stood silent. Then, she alone partook of the Communion and afterwards the priest blessed the people with the chailce as usual. [Side Note] I've been to churches of all jurisdictional stripes, including ROCOR and the GOCÂÂ  - and I've never once before only seen the pre-communion prayers recited alone, nor have I seen only one person receive of the Holy Gifts. Is this a common practice in the Serbian Church? [/Side Note]

We used to do this at my parish until a few years ago.  Somebody from the congregation would be invited to read the prayers.  On the day of my baptism, it was I who did it.  Now the priest alone reads them.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 05:27:49 AM by Subdeacon Michael » Logged

'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt
ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 01:11:52 AM »

Hi,

I just wanted to say that in my experience that it is normal in slavic churches for you to go to confession in order to receive Communion. Therefore the priest would have known. I have also experienced Churches where you were expected to confess several times a year. Recently, in Chicago, the priest right before communion stated that only Orthodox Christians that have been to confession and Vespers and are properly prepared (fasted) may receive. So I guess there are variations which are ok but I am so use to confession and communion being connected that is how I do it.

Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 01:48:07 AM »

This is the correct Serbian way ,Confession first then Holy Communion....Ive never ever Heard, That anyone can just walk up and approach Holy Communion, that the Serbian Priest hasn't confessed First ,even before Holy Liturgy...

Some Orthodox Churches want people to confess once a month or every 3 weeks or every few Months from what i read and understood ,and they approach Holy Communion in Many different states of sin...

I don't like the slackness some Orthodox Churches are Allowing .I stay away from those period...

Serbs put money in different places thur out the church for different things and on Ikonas ,and the Plastanica around Pashca ,depends where its put,,also goes to the Priest for his living expence....
I use to be a Altar Boy, But i can't remember anything now...... Grin

« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 02:09:01 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Subdeacon Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 195



« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 02:09:06 AM »

I just wanted to say that in my experience that it is normal in slavic churches for you to go to confession in order to receive Communion.

Same here.

I recently visited a church where the new priest has re-introduced this.  One of the parishioners explained to me that, for over 30 years, the parish had a priest who, before Communion, would simply get the congregation to kneel, would read a generic prayer of confession on their behalf, and would then pronounce an absolution over them.  This means that anybody growing up in the parish in that time will have come to think of that as normal, and instead of confessing in order to receive communion, many of them simply choose not to receive or go elsewhere.  Meanwhile, the older generation remember the earlier days of the parish when Confession before Communion was the norm.  When tackled by the younger ones who have a problem with it, the priest simply explained that this is what he was instructed to do by his bishop and he will not break his vow of obedience. I think that he is right but I also think we need to sympathise with these people.  They are not being wilfully disruptive - they have been allowed to think for years that this laxity is the norm.  I think some gentle but direct catechesis over a period of Sundays, explaining the communion of the Church, the Mystery of Communion within that context, and the effects of sin and necessity for Confession, may well help people to understand that it isn't just an arbitrary rule but rather a healing medicine for the soul.

M
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 02:09:45 AM by Subdeacon Michael » Logged

'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 493


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2011, 05:58:29 PM »

it is true that confession before the comunio has been something obligatory for many years because people used to fast and confess by default and that was all-after that they would put their brain in a jar. things have changed in the last years and people talk about these things... the root of all this is a sick spirituality which seems to be trying to fulfill juridical and moral rules forgetting the most imoportant 1- a true orthodox father will ask you (before the communio) do you forgive people-and thats all...

many of us in Serbia have books talking about whether someone is worthy to take part in communio (pričešće,telo i krv Hristova) or not and they forget 1 thing-Lord never spoke about being worthy or not but only once he said-Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.So for Christ,the only parameter of being worthy is the ability to forgive...

sorry for the intermezzo  Grin

about the differences-it is important to know what st.Augustine said



i can tell u about most of the things mentioned but it would reqire some time... i ll se if i can do it...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 06:03:29 PM by W.A.Mozart » Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2011, 08:41:53 PM »

...people used to fast and confess by default and that was all-after that they would put their brain in a jar..

... the root of all this is a sick spirituality



about the differences-it is important to know what st.Augustine said



Funny!  I don't see anything there from Saint Augustine saying:  Denigrate those who follow a different tradition to you!
Logged
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 493


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2011, 10:06:06 AM »

maybe because the poster i posted talks about christians only and the quotation you mentioned talks about christians and their attitude towards -a different tradition-
Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2011, 11:52:11 AM »

I know this thread is very old but this question wasn't really tackled.

Before the Trisagion, one of the altar servers came out of the south deacon's door, faced northwest and loudly read a couple verses of something, which I've not seen done before. It was definitely not the Epistle - any clue what that may have been?

Could have been the daily troparia, perhaps. I've been to parishes where the priest reads them because the choir isn't able to sing anything without sheet music. Perhaps it was delegated to an altar server.

If it was after the Trisagion I'd guess it was the prokeimenon.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,648


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2011, 01:04:06 PM »



During the Anaphora when the priest said, "and make this Bread the precious Body of thy Christ" one of the serves loudly rang a bell. When the priest said, "and that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ", the same server rang the bell again for a few seconds as he had before. Then when the priest said, "Making the Change by Thy Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen." the server again rang the bell, this time for a couple seconds longer than the previous times. I've not seen this done at any other Orthodox Church before - is this a Serbian tradition?

[Side Note] At the OCA church, when the priest said, "Take! Eat! This is My Body, which is broken for you, for the remission of sins." the bell outside the church would be rung once. When the priest said, "Drink of it, all of you! This is My Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many, for the remission of sins." the outer bell was rung once again and then no more bells would be rung until, "Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary." I am assuming that the single intoning of the bells at this particular OCA church was/is a carry over from earlier when the people of this church were Byzantine Catholic, because I've not seen this done at any other Orthodox churches before either...?ÂÂ  Huh [/Side Note]



I know this is an old thread, but this is a great example about how we learn about each other and about the wide variety of customs that ARE Orthodox but may not be Russian or Greek or whatever, but none the less Orthodox.

Growing up in ACROD, we were always teased by other Orthodox kids when we did Sunday School Liturgy visits about the ringing of bells as described above.

The kids from the Metropolia parishes were really cruel calling us Catholics and the 'U' word. (I understand this as an adult as their grandparents likely became Orthodox twenty years or so before mine so foolish things were said by many.)

As the years went by, most of our priests hid the bells and did away with them. Now, at age 57, I learn that, in addition to some Romanians who ring them at this time, some Serbs do so as well.

The lesson to be learned by all of us is that before we criticize our brother or sister for how rubrics are practiced in their Orthodox church, we need to remember that the way we were taught or what our grandparents told us, was not necessarily the ONLY Orthodox way. Whether it is a cassock style, hair styles, beards, pokon/bowing styles, chanting styles, color of vestments and on and on and on.....we all, myself included, need not to judge what we see unless we REALLY know what we are talking about.

Otherwise it is just noise produced by wind passing over your vocal chords.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2011, 05:10:02 PM »

- a true orthodox father will ask you (before the communio) do you forgive people-and thats all...



You seem to write that with a great deal of assurance and yet I have not heard of it.  Can you please say something about it and where you were taught that.

A priest will probably ask  three questions:
1. Do you sincerely repent of these sins and all your sins?
2. Do you have a firm intention not to commit them again?
3. Do you forgive other people their sins against you?

Jeromonah Amvrosije posrbljen
Logged
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 493


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2011, 02:46:37 AM »

isnt this adequate for the confession...

 i didnt say every orthodox priest does this but there r some of them who do... in Bosnia and Serbia...at least I know for some of them...
Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.141 seconds with 54 queries.