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Author Topic: Serbian Church Will Not Invite Pope To Nis  (Read 5498 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2011, 07:23:38 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
The Serbs had no choice?
No.  When log protest didn't disuade the Ustashe, it fell to armed defense.

Slobodan Milosevic had no choice?  Huh

I didn't say a thing about Milosevic.

That's a new low, even for you.
The Poglavnik [Fuehrer] wants you:


"For Poglavnik and Christ, Against Communism!!"


Quote
A recruiting poster for the Croatian Ustasha SS (as in Nazi SS) Black Legion. The poster was aimed in part at Bosnian Muslims; hence, one soldier is shown wearing a fez, the hat of fanatical Islam, and the town in the background includes a minaret (middle-right), part of a mosque.
The top line reads: "Croats of Herzeg-Bosnia!" Underneath is the crooked double S of the Nazi SS, plus the Ustasha checkerboard flag, brought back when Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia, for the second time, in 1991.

Two soldiers, presumably a Catholic and a Muslim, trample the Communist flag. The text reads: "The Great leaders Adolf Hitler and poglavnik [fuehrer] Dr. Ante Pavelic are calling you to defend your homes. Join the volunteer units of Croatian SS."

Quote
In 1995, here is what Tudjman said about the Serbs, as recorded and translated by the BBC Monitoring service:

"And [applause - BBC] there can be no return to the past, to the times when they the Serbs were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, cancer which was destroying the Croatian national being and which did not allow the Croatian people to be the master in its own house and did not allow Croatia to lead an independent and sovereign life under this wide, blue sky and within the world community of sovereign nations."

According to Tudjman, the Serbs were "cancer" -  exactly the sort of disease metaphor Nazi-types use when describing 'racial' enemies. Straight-forward Ustasha stuff, no pretense of standing up to supposed Serbian aggression. Rather, the presence of Serbs is in itself an aggression against some undefined (because indefinable) Croatian "national being."
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/u-legion.jpg&imgrefurl=http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/times1.htm&usg=__nuUXaZ9v1sl97WHm123NlDwYFxg=&h=604&w=408&sz=26&hl=en&start=113&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=lCFCm8-nYAh4FM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=91&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgreater%2Bcroatia%2Bmap%2Bza%2Bdom%2Bspremni%26start%3D100%26tbnid%3D0K1S8RwLqfY2oM:%26tbnh%3D0%26tbnw%3D0%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D654%26ndsp%3D20%26tbm%3Disch&ei=O9z3TbXqAq3diAKsmOX-DA
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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2011, 08:23:16 PM »

Let's not forget that the Croats were not the only ones tempted by the Axis to view the Fuhrer as the bulwark against Communism. There were plenty of Americans with similar sympathies in the German American Bund, Charles Lindbergh, Joe Kennedy and others who believed that an alliance among Britain, Germany and the US could stop Stalin and destroy communism. We can rehash 20th century history if we like, but the sad reality is that the innocent blood of millions of souls was shed across the continent of Europe. The major powers used one political, economic or religious justification or another to excuse, or more likely turn a blind eye towards, the overwhelming brutality. Americans tend to forget that from the beginning of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 through the destruction of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the Balkan war of the mid 1990's, many historians would argue that the major powers of the continent, or their surrogates, essentially were continually at war with limited periods of either armistice or 'cold' war interrupting the bloodshed.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 08:25:56 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2011, 12:42:20 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 

Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
No one denies that he was a Franciscan brother. But you said he was a priest, and I don;t see the evidence proving that he was ever ordained as a Catholic priest.
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2011, 12:58:04 AM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


"How many persons were murdered in Jasenovac and the other concentration camps?

"In Bespuca povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp.

In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.''

"Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure: ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.''

"The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.''

On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''"

Source :: http://ljiljana-zivojinovic.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
According to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum,  "Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime."
On the other hand, this museum estimates that Croat authorities murdered about 330,000 Serbs in all. 
Obviously, this was a brutal and horrific situation that should never have happened.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2011, 01:47:55 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 

Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
No one denies that he was a Franciscan brother. But you said he was a priest, and I don;t see the evidence proving that he was ever ordained as a Catholic priest.

It is not so much that I am saying he's a priest so much that a lot of available data says that about him.  As to his ordination, this site may be considered 'polemic' by some, but for biographical purposes:

http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/filipovic/index.html


Quote


Franciscan priest and enthusiastic commandant at Jasenovac. Known to inmates as Fra Sotona (Brother Devil) for his monstrous cruelty against inmates. Ordained in 1939 and served mass at Petricevac (near Banja Luka) until the proclamation of the Independent State of Croatia in 1941. From January 1942 he was a military chaplain, and was accused of taking part in terrible atrocities against the Serbian population. A German court singled him out for prosecution as part of a general attempt to halt the bloodletting in the NDH. Filipovic did not deny that the atrocities had happened, but claimed he took no part, and failed to act against the perpetrators owing to military solidarity. Removed from his post, he was appointed commandant of Jasenovac through the offices of Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic. Captured by Communists after the war, summarily tried and executed
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2011, 02:09:49 AM »

Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago, but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.  The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia




Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.



Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.

Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.

Everything is not black and white indeed.  While initially the Serbs were reluctant to let Croatia leave the Federation, this turned to the Serbs not wanting so much to 'deny' the right of Croatian indpendence, just the right of the Croats to take the majority of the Serb population with them, who opposed Croatian independence.  While there was media and political manipulation on the part of the Milošević regime (Arkan and Vojislav Šešelj had visited Serb areas before the conflict), the Croats and the Tuđman government didn't help their cause by demoting the status of the Serbs from a constituent people to a minority, sackings of Serbs from their jobs without reason, rehashing Ustaše symbols, some of which, like the šahovnica, predated the Ustaše.  The point is that the Croats didn't listen to or take Serb concerns seriously, nor did Tuđman seriously consider any sort of compromise with an increasingly alarmed Serbian community.  

I agree, that part of the reason the JNA couldn't advance so far as it intended was due to Croatian resistance, but it was facing desertions, logistic nightmares, and in some places, like Vukovar, there wasn't a clear chain of command until the appointment of General Života Panić in I believe September-October 1991.  Also, the JNA was neither a wholly Serb army, nor were all its higher echelons convinced nationalists, even during the initial stages of the conflicts in Croatia and in Bosnia.  Take the examples of Generals Milutin Kukanjac in Bosnia, Velko Kadijević (General and Defence Minister from 1988-1992),  and Milan Aksentijević, in Slovenia. 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 02:28:13 AM by trifon » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2011, 05:00:34 AM »

You are right Trifon.

There should have been a radical re-drawing of borders at the time to prevent war. If it can be done in Sudan it can be done and should have been done in the Balkans.

Krajina and the Serb majority cantons of Bosnia should have been made part of Serbia.

Croat Herzegovina a part of Croatia proper.

The central part of Bosnia left as a Bosniak state.

Fewer minorities = fewer problems for everyone.

Instead we got a Croatia totally cleansed of Serbs, a Bosnia split into two entities that despise each other, the Croats get a lesser say in Bosnia because they are stuck with Muslims and a totally fake "independent" Kosovo. Not too mention an independent Montenegro by the barest of margins.

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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2011, 07:10:48 PM »

 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  

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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 10:34:40 AM »

 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  



Thanks for this.  My university libraries don't have this work, but the British Library does.  I'll look into it.
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2011, 02:12:07 PM »

Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church. 

Quote
The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2011, 03:29:43 PM »

He was beatified for martyrdom. He was a martyr. He died for the faith. His death saved him.
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2011, 03:48:00 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church.  

Quote
The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
the same source has this:
Quote
In Britain, on 23 October 1946, Mr Richard Stokes MP declared in the House of Commons that,

[T]he archbishop was our constant ally in 1941, during the worst of the crisis, and thereafter, at a time when the Orthodox Church, which is now comme il faut with the Tito Government, was shaking hands with Mussolini....[73]

What an incredibly odd (and libelous) thing to say

And oh, btw, Tito was part of the Allies, and the Ustashe part of the Axis. Like Mussolimi.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 03:51:30 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2011, 11:34:38 PM »

 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  



Thanks for this.  My university libraries don't have this work, but the British Library does.  I'll look into it.
Amazon has a used copy for sale for $4. It gives a different version of many events. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 11:37:43 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2011, 03:10:24 PM »

The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »

Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church. 

Quote
The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
Stepinac approved of the conversion campaign against the Serbs and didn't revoke it even when it became obvious that Serbs were being threatened with death if they refused conversion (many were killed afterwards anyway).
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« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2011, 03:35:11 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2011, 11:25:53 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.

The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.
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« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2011, 04:03:07 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.

The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.

If Putin had been in power at the time there would have been no NATO attack against the Serbs and Eastern Slavonia at the very least would have been a part of Serbia.
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« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2011, 09:36:00 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.

The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.

If Putin had been in power at the time there would have been no NATO attack against the Serbs and Eastern Slavonia at the very least would have been a part of Serbia.

One could just as easily speculate that if Putin were in power that Russia would not have permitted the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia and would have interfered with the ascension of all of the nationalist politicians in the various republics. Alternative history is pointless as we will never know.
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