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Author Topic: Serbian Church Will Not Invite Pope To Nis  (Read 6154 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 12, 2011, 01:43:05 AM »

Serbian Church Will Not Invite Pope To Nis

Tanjug, N. Vlačo
July 6, 2011
Blic

The Serbian Orthodox Church (SPC) most likely shall not invite Pope Benedict XVI to attend the celebration of the 1,700 year anniversary of the Edict of Milan in the Town of Nis in 2013, since the Synod had not agreed about that, Tanjug was told at the Patriarchate in Belgrade.

As said by the Patriarchate, the Pope perhaps would have been invited had he during his visit to Croatia this weekend visited Jasenovac and paid respect to the victims of the concentration camp in which 700,000 Serbs and about 100,000 Jews and Roma were killed during the WWII.

That has not happened, but the Pope did visit the grave of Croatian Cardinal Alojzije Stepinac who was on trial after WWII for cooperation with the Nazis.

Extracted from ::
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/06/serbian-church-will-not-invite-pope-to.html?m=3D1=0A
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2011, 03:01:56 AM »

I wouldn't believe for a minute what they say about the Blessed Cardinal Stepinac.  He was put on trail by the communist Tito government which persecuted all religions equally.  Blessed Stepinacc tried to save people from Nazi/Ustashi extermination, but he was severally limited in what he could do for them.
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2011, 08:52:02 AM »

It never ceases to amaze me how important, and intelligent, public figures sometimes don't get the significance of simple gestures. They can do all of the right things for years in terms of trying to respect others and then....  I am reminded this weekend of June 1984 when President Reagan, who was a master of symbolic gestures and understood the power of images, defied logic and inflamed Allied veterans of World War 2 by paying his respects at the German cemetery at Normandy on the fortieth anniversary of D Day. I understood the thinking behind it, but the power of the gesture was too raw for those living who suffered from the Nazi war machine. There is a certain similarity to the events Fr. Ambrose is referred to regarding the Pope and the late Cardinal and his failure to acknowledge the camp victims.
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2011, 02:54:42 PM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2011, 03:02:10 PM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


Are numbers a reason to ignore the issue?
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 03:11:40 PM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


Regardless, that's a whole lot of people....
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 03:48:58 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


The census of 1910, when the Vatican's chief henchman was in charge, showed 644,955 Serbs (24.6%) and 653,184 Orthodox (and 17,592 "Greek-Catholics").  Could that be 800,000 by 1939? Since that is consistent with the population increase across Yugoslavia in the time period, quite easily.

77,000 isn't enough for you? (a rhetorical question).

btw, the number Father gave was the number killed, not the number of Serbs in Slavonia.  It's not like the Ustashe liked Serbs in Belgrade, for instance.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 03:50:41 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 03:55:39 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


The census of 1910, when the Vatican's chief henchman was in charge, showed 644,955 Serbs (24.6%) and 653,184 Orthodox (and 17,592 "Greek-Catholics").  Could that be 800,000 by 1939? Since that is consistent with the population increase across Yugoslavia in the time period, quite easily.

77,000 isn't enough for you? (a rhetorical question).

btw, the number Father gave was the number killed, not the number of Serbs in Slavonia.  It's not like the Ustashe liked Serbs in Belgrade, for instance.

I would agree that your response, synLeszka, isn't helpful to furthering mutual understanding and trying to move past the detritus of history and the failures of men and women who preceded us in this world.
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2011, 03:58:07 PM »

This is a right step forward. While I'm all for cordial relations with RCC the more tolerant policy seems to cause dispute in the midst of faithful. It's a shame but that's how the situation is. It's better to leave a heterodox pope out than cause disunity within the Church.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 03:58:36 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2011, 04:10:33 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


The census of 1910, when the Vatican's chief henchman was in charge, showed 644,955 Serbs (24.6%) and 653,184 Orthodox (and 17,592 "Greek-Catholics").  Could that be 800,000 by 1939? Since that is consistent with the population increase across Yugoslavia in the time period, quite easily.

77,000 isn't enough for you? (a rhetorical question).

btw, the number Father gave was the number killed, not the number of Serbs in Slavonia.  It's not like the Ustashe liked Serbs in Belgrade, for instance.
Putting nonsensical figures and trying to make a lie into a truth is one thing. I have not applauded the Ustasa in any way. Exagerrating figures is lying.
<<quote>>Catholic Encyclopedia: in: Croatia:
Of the population of 2,186,410, 71 per cent. is Catholic; 26 per cent. Schismatic Greek; 1.6 per cent. Protestant; and 1 per cent. Jewish. Freedom of worship is guaranteed by State law <</quote>>
Not all of the Orthodox in Croatia lived in Slavonia.
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?


Anyways, 100.000 is not a lot. 250.000 Polish soldiers were exterminated by the Great Stalin;
6 million citizens of Poland, Christian and Jewish were "liquidated" by the Nazis alone, not counting the ones not "assimilated" into Soviet society.
Entire segments of Polish society were eliminated, percent wise :  
       39% of medicians,
    * 33 % elementary school teachers
    * 30 % of scientists and professors
    * 28 % of priests
    26% of lawyers

But I expect that someone on this forum, will laugh and say "What you Catholics did not defend yourselves, too sad"..
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 04:12:44 PM by synLeszka » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 04:16:33 PM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


My opinion?  Be thankful that the Patriarch has found an excuse to withdraw his invitation for the Pope to come to Serbia.   There must be any number of people there who would like to fire a bullet into him.  For example, the grandchildren of those killed by the Ustasha under the approving eyes of Franciscans.  And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


The census of 1910, when the Vatican's chief henchman was in charge, showed 644,955 Serbs (24.6%) and 653,184 Orthodox (and 17,592 "Greek-Catholics").  Could that be 800,000 by 1939? Since that is consistent with the population increase across Yugoslavia in the time period, quite easily.

77,000 isn't enough for you? (a rhetorical question).

btw, the number Father gave was the number killed, not the number of Serbs in Slavonia.  It's not like the Ustashe liked Serbs in Belgrade, for instance.

I would agree that your response, synLeszka, isn't helpful to furthering mutual understanding and trying to move past the detritus of history and the failures of men and women who preceded us in this world.

Forgive me, but what happened in the past is not simply stored in dusty boxes in the attic, but it lives on. That the past has relevance for the present and the future is the nature of things. It can be ignored, or it can be dealt with. Some countries like the United States and Russia, for example, ignore the atrocities of their pasts. Others, like Germany, face them with a collective penitence. The violence of WWII was not dealt with in a good way at all, and so it festered and erupted again. We speak of "moving on," but you cannot truly move on unless you can view the past honestly without denial. The failures of those who preceded us left catastrophic wounds which are bound to open again if they are not healed through repentance and justice.
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2011, 04:39:13 PM »

We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.

BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume.  Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2011, 05:12:14 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


The census of 1910, when the Vatican's chief henchman was in charge, showed 644,955 Serbs (24.6%) and 653,184 Orthodox (and 17,592 "Greek-Catholics").  Could that be 800,000 by 1939? Since that is consistent with the population increase across Yugoslavia in the time period, quite easily.

77,000 isn't enough for you? (a rhetorical question).

btw, the number Father gave was the number killed, not the number of Serbs in Slavonia.  It's not like the Ustashe liked Serbs in Belgrade, for instance.
Putting nonsensical figures and trying to make a lie into a truth is one thing.
The 1910 figures are the one the dutiful son of the Vatican reported. I wouldn't be suprised if the count was doctored to undercount the Serbs and the Orthodox.

The Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia

Compared to the present day

compared to the Banovina of Croatia between the World Wars

which, of its 99 kotars, and 17 majority Serb (12 overwhelming, and  5 by a plurality.
In 1941, the ethnic map looked like this (Serbs in yellow)


I have not applauded the Ustasa in any way.
No, we can't get the theme of your posts  Roll Eyes.  Didn't you have something about "hang the [other] nations" in one of them, IIRC?

Exagerrating figures is lying.
<<quote>>Catholic Encyclopedia: in: Croatia:
Of the population of 2,186,410, 71 per cent. is Catholic; 26 per cent. Schismatic Greek; 1.6 per cent. Protestant; and 1 per cent. Jewish. Freedom of worship is guaranteed by State law <</quote>>
Not all of the Orthodox in Croatia lived in Slavonia
And the difference?
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
rouge, as in red?  Look at the map


Anyways, 100.000 is not a lot. 250.000 Polish soldiers were exterminated by the Great Stalin;
You talking about Katyn?
6 million citizens of Poland, Christian and Jewish were "liquidated" by the Nazis alone, not counting the ones not "assimilated" into Soviet society.
Entire segments of Polish society were eliminated, percent wise :  
       39% of medicians,
    * 33 % elementary school teachers
    * 30 % of scientists and professors
    * 28 % of priests
    26% of lawyers

But I expect that someone on this forum, will laugh and say "What you Catholics did not defend yourselves, too sad"..
You did rather well eliminating not only the Orthodox Ukrainians, Lemkos and Ruthenians, but your coreligionists as well.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 05:39:26 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2011, 05:48:03 PM »

We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.

BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume.  Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.

A good point. Orthodox tend to view the pope according to his aspirations, not according to his reality.
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2011, 06:11:57 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Putting nonsensical figures and trying to make a lie into a truth is one thing.
In 1941, the ethnic map looked like this (Serbs in yellow)
And the Ustashe State looked like this:

It seems they cast quite a wide net to catch Serbs to kill, far beyond those in Slavonia. For a closer look

Notice how it reached up to Belgrade itself.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 06:17:21 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2011, 06:25:47 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.

BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume.  Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.

A good point. Orthodox tend to view the pope according to his aspirations, not according to his reality.
His reality is bad enough.  And his aspirations are what we are constantly being told would solve all our alleged problems.
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 06:32:28 PM »

We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.
Then he doesn't go.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.
Except conversion (I know a number of Croatian who embraced Orthodoxy).
BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume.  Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.
So, when he smiles, we know what is behind the smile.
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 10:20:45 PM »

Thank you for putting SynLeska back on his leash. His rabidly anti-Orthodox comments are getting tiresome. Fancy downplaying the death of 100,000 Serbs.....

Great maps btw. The German one shows what the true borders of a Serbian state should have been.





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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2011, 02:50:07 AM »

We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.
Then he doesn't go.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.
Except conversion (I know a number of Croatian who embraced Orthodoxy).
BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume. Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.
So, when he smiles, we know what is behind the smile.

Hm mm, so your saying that the Pope (The current one I imagine as well as his predecessors) Are all readily anti Serb (Or Orthodox) and desire the extermination of the Serbian people?  That's more then a bit on the extreme side, even for a seasoned polemicist like yourself. 

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.

Also, why must almost all Orthodox feel compelled to be so pro- Serb all the time?  Did not the supposedly devout Serbs also persecute Orthodox Romanians, Macedonians, and Albanians (The latter is far more recent then the World War II era).  Why do these persecuted Orthodox groups never get any respect, yet the Serbs are treated as some type of sacred race despite all their troublemaking down through the years?
Also, I have no idea who these so called "Croat Orthodox" are, but I suspect that they are descended from Byzantine rite Catholics who crossed over to Orthodoxy in order to appease the anti Catholic Marshall Tito.  I have great respect for Orthodoxy, but I just can't imagine any Croat converting to a religion which is so identified with the Serbs considering the great rivalry between them.
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2011, 03:09:03 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2011, 03:13:15 AM »

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.
But I think that there were priests in the Vatican, or close to the Vatican, who helped some of the Ustase to escape.
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2011, 03:17:21 AM »

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.
But I think that there were priests in the Vatican, or close to the Vatican, who helped some of the Ustase to escape.

That may be true, but just because some priest or Cardinals may have been sympathetic to these Ustashe, that does not mean that the Pope, or all Catholics then and now living are responsible for these crimes.  I am sure that the Vatican has apologized for any wrong doing that individual Catholics might have done against the Serbians during World War II.  Why then can't the Serbs just forgive and forget and stop trying to trash all RC's as genocidal maniacs over the crimes of a few of her members? 
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2011, 03:26:58 AM »

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.
But I think that there were priests in the Vatican, or close to the Vatican, who helped some of the Ustase to escape.

That may be true, but just because some priest or Cardinals may have been sympathetic to these Ustashe, that does not mean that the Pope, or all Catholics then and now living are responsible for these crimes.  I am sure that the Vatican has apologized for any wrong doing that individual Catholics might have done against the Serbians during World War II.  Why then can't the Serbs just forgive and forget and stop trying to trash all RC's as genocidal maniacs over the crimes of a few of her members? 
It's an emotional issue.
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2011, 03:29:00 AM »

We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.
Then he doesn't go.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.
Except conversion (I know a number of Croatian who embraced Orthodoxy).
BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume. Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.
So, when he smiles, we know what is behind the smile.

Hm mm, so your saying that the Pope (The current one I imagine as well as his predecessors) Are all readily anti Serb (Or Orthodox) and desire the extermination of the Serbian people?  That's more then a bit on the extreme side, even for a seasoned polemicist like yourself. 

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.

Also, why must almost all Orthodox feel compelled to be so pro- Serb all the time?  Did not the supposedly devout Serbs also persecute Orthodox Romanians, Macedonians, and Albanians (The latter is far more recent then the World War II era).  Why do these persecuted Orthodox groups never get any respect, yet the Serbs are treated as some type of sacred race despite all their troublemaking down through the years?
Also, I have no idea who these so called "Croat Orthodox" are, but I suspect that they are descended from Byzantine rite Catholics who crossed over to Orthodoxy in order to appease the anti Catholic Marshall Tito.  I have great respect for Orthodoxy, but I just can't imagine any Croat converting to a religion which is so identified with the Serbs considering the great rivalry between them.

Jozo Tomasevich in War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: Occupation and Collaboration gives the figure of 200 000 conversions of Catholics (mostly Croatians I assume), to Orthodoxy in the interwar period
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 03:37:35 AM »

We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.

BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume.  Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.


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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 03:46:31 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 03:59:22 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
In 1981 a Banja Luka priest said that Filipović told him, in the month after he relinquished command at Jasenovac, that he was guilty of crimes at the camp but was innocent of involvement in the massacres in and around Drakulić in February 1942. Also, at his war crimes trial, he denied invovement in the incident which occurred on Feb. 1942.
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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2011, 04:02:18 AM »

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.
But I think that there were priests in the Vatican, or close to the Vatican, who helped some of the Ustase to escape.

That may be true, but just because some priest or Cardinals may have been sympathetic to these Ustashe, that does not mean that the Pope, or all Catholics then and now living are responsible for these crimes.  I am sure that the Vatican has apologized for any wrong doing that individual Catholics might have done against the Serbians during World War II.  Why then can't the Serbs just forgive and forget and stop trying to trash all RC's as genocidal maniacs over the crimes of a few of her members? 
It seems like the Pope could have gone to Jasenovac, and express his sorrow at what happened. After all, he is supposed to be a world leader?
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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2011, 04:16:43 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
In 1981 a Banja Luka priest said that Filipović told him, in the month after he relinquished command at Jasenovac, that he was guilty of crimes at the camp but was innocent of involvement in the massacres in and around Drakulić in February 1942. Also, at his war crimes trial, he denied invovement in the incident on Feb. 1942.

Perhaps, but there is also evidence to suggest that he was guilty.  Now granted, I've only seen references in academic journals, however his actions surrounding the February 7th, 1942 massacres, along with  are attested to in the Magnum Crimem of Viktor Novak, a former Catholic priest, who himself was incarcerated during the war.  In either case, this is an extremely complex and delicate matter.
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2011, 04:37:36 AM »

Why then can't the Serbs just forgive and forget
 

Pope John Paul II spoke often of the "healing of memory."  The Orthodox attitude could be summed up in the well-known words of Patriarch Pavle of Serbia when he dedicated the monument at the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia - "Forgive we must, forget we dare not."  Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo.

(Actually these are the words of Patriarch German when he visited the site of the Jasenovac camp before his death but it was Patriarch Pavle's use of them at the consecration ceremony which raised them to national consciousness.)

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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2011, 05:32:25 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 
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« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2011, 06:08:54 AM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


"How many persons were murdered in Jasenovac and the other concentration camps?

"In Bespuca povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp.

In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.''

"Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure: ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.''

"The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.''

On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''"

Source :: http://ljiljana-zivojinovic.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2011, 07:26:49 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 

Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2011, 09:00:42 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
We must remember that the Pope probably did not personally  choose the locations he visited in Croatia.  These were probably already selected by either someone in the Vatican or by the Croatian government.  Maybe the Pope did want to go to the Jasnovac site, but it was forbidden for him to do so or disapproved of by Croat officials.
Then he doesn't go.

Croatia is still a pretty devout and catholic country, even in this day and age of secularism. It would be unwise and imprudent for the Pope or the Vatican to insult or "throw" Croatia under the bus in order to appear PC in the eyes of the world.  Besides the Serbs tend to hate all Catholics irregardless of how many apologies the Vatican makes for past wrongs and how much money is given to heal past offenses.  For a Serb (Like so many peoples in Eastern Europe and the Balkans) A Catholic = Croat and nothing will ever change this.
Except conversion (I know a number of Croatian who embraced Orthodoxy).
BTW, I am in no way in favor of the genocidal actions of the Croatian Pavlevic regime. The Croats also persecuted and drove out Italians in Istria and Fiume. Their barbarity is still remembered and frowned upon in Italy and was even the cause of some recent unflattering remarks by an Italian politician towards the Croats.  I just feel that the Vatican is being realistic in remembering whose side their bread is buttered on.
So, when he smiles, we know what is behind the smile.

Hm mm, so your saying that the Pope (The current one I imagine as well as his predecessors) Are all readily anti Serb (Or Orthodox) and desire the extermination of the Serbian people?  That's more then a bit on the extreme side, even for a seasoned polemicist like yourself.
You were the one who said they know whose side their bread is buttered on, and it seems not to bother them if it is buttered with a bloody knife.

After the Croats declared their independence and started reviving Ustashe symbols, renaming streets and squares after Ustashe murderers, er, "heros" and banning Cyrillic-Germany and the Vatican were the first to extend international recognition.  The Serbs in the Krajina had no reason to wait around to find out where that was going.

I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.
Such as?

The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.
So yet again the great petrine office, which is supposed to guide all aright and settle all disputes, the thing we Orhtodox are told we are "lacking"-once again is shown to be impotent when the theory hits reality.

Pat. Pavle of blessed memory managed to ban clergy involvement in the rogue militias, defrock clerics who defied the ban, issue blanket excommunications for those engaged in genocide in the name of Orthodoxy, suspend baptisms of converts (to ensure that it wasn't being used for ethnic cleansing), etc.  He would have been more effective, had not Milosovic inherited the hamstringing of the Serbian Patriarchate by the Croat Tito. 

Also, why must almost all Orthodox feel compelled to be so pro- Serb all the time?
 Justice.

Did not the supposedly devout Serbs also persecute Orthodox Romanians, Macedonians, and Albanians (The latter is far more recent then the World War II era).
besides the Macedonians, no (in the case of the Romanians, Serbs are the only neighbors they get along with, and they are fiercely pro-Serb).  And in the Macedonian case, there is a quesiton of how much it was self defense.

Why do these persecuted Orthodox groups never get any respect, yet the Serbs are treated as some type of sacred race despite all their troublemaking down through the years?
The only trouble making the Serbs are known for is the trouble they gave the Turks.  That's why the Austrians settled them in the Krajina.

Also, I have no idea who these so called "Croat Orthodox" are, but I suspect that they are descended from Byzantine rite Catholics who crossed over to Orthodoxy in order to appease the anti Catholic Marshall Tito.
At 1054, only the King  Peter Krešimir IV (who was a usurper) and the upper nobility favored the Vatican-it consolidated their power-where every one else looked East.

Given that Tito ripped Macedonia from the patriarchate and other atrocities, he was no friend of the Serbian Patriarchate, so I don't know what appeasement they would hope to give the Croat-Slovene (the two nationalities in Yugoslavia associated with the Vatican).


I have great respect for Orthodoxy, but I just can't imagine any Croat converting to a religion which is so identified with the Serbs considering the great rivalry between them.
I don't have to imagine it, as I've seen it.  I have to admit, that I did ask one (this was before the breakup of Yugoslavia, btw) at his chrismation if he was now a Serb, and got an affirmative negative.
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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2011, 09:05:42 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
I doubt that you could blame Pope Pius XII for the crimes that the Ustashi committed against the Serbs anymore then you could blame all Orthodox for the crimes that nations like Russia have committed against Catholics.  The Croats acted independently of the Vatican during the war and had no Papal blessings for their actions.  If anything Pope Pius tried to distance the Church from the fascist Ustashi government.  If individual Catholic priest and bishops were supportive of the fascist then that was their problem and not that of the RCC collective.
But I think that there were priests in the Vatican, or close to the Vatican, who helped some of the Ustase to escape.

That may be true, but just because some priest or Cardinals may have been sympathetic to these Ustashe, that does not mean that the Pope, or all Catholics then and now living are responsible for these crimes.  I am sure that the Vatican has apologized for any wrong doing that individual Catholics might have done against the Serbians during World War II.  Why then can't the Serbs just forgive and forget and stop trying to trash all RC's as genocidal maniacs over the crimes of a few of her members? 
Because the few can kill many, as Trudjman proved again.
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2011, 09:11:21 AM »

Why then can't the Serbs just forgive and forget
 

Pope John Paul II spoke often of the "healing of memory."  The Orthodox attitude could be summed up in the well-known words of Patriarch Pavle of Serbia when he dedicated the monument at the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia - "Forgive we must, forget we dare not."  Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo.

(Actually these are the words of Patriarch German when he visited the site of the Jasenovac camp before his death but it was Patriarch Pavle's use of them at the consecration ceremony which raised them to national consciousness.)



Probably for the same reasons Jews take the same position.
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2011, 09:15:40 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 

Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 

Thank you as I was about to some of the same statements. Polemic notwithstanding, and the Lord knows that the Balkans have surely been the home to much of the that as its peoples have suffered under the boots of many foreign occupiers for centuries, the truth is harsh and it must not be allowed to be away from the glare of the light so that generations yet to be born may know it and use it to avoid repeating the horrible mistakes of the past.
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2011, 11:09:49 AM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


My opinion?  Be thankful that the Patriarch has found an excuse to withdraw his invitation for the Pope to come to Serbia.   There must be any number of people there who would like to fire a bullet into him.  For example, the grandchildren of those killed by the Ustasha under the approving eyes of Franciscans.  And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
As if the Bulgarian KGB, in submission to the Russian KGB, ordering a Turk to shoot the Pope is not enough. I think that it is true, that the Serbian priests escalated the conflict in the early 1990's.
 I think everyone has heard "popovi, pa topovi".

The mere suggestion of the thought of firing a bullet to the Pope from a monk and priest's mouth is insanity. Is that all you think about, shooting bullets through our bishops? Why are your thoughts so violent?
A Serbian/Orthodox monk suggests that Serbs will shoot the Pope if he comes to Serbia. Interesting, very interesting! Thank God I am not Serbian and I do not have to be in your church! I feel sorry for those baptised in your church, though.
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2011, 11:18:03 AM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


My opinion?  Be thankful that the Patriarch has found an excuse to withdraw his invitation for the Pope to come to Serbia.   There must be any number of people there who would like to fire a bullet into him.  For example, the grandchildren of those killed by the Ustasha under the approving eyes of Franciscans.  And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
As if the Bulgarian KGB, in submission to the Russian KGB, ordering a Turk to shoot the Pope is not enough. I think that it is true, that the Serbian priests escalated the conflict in the early 1990's.
 I think everyone has heard "popovi, pa topovi".

The mere suggestion of the thought of firing a bullet to the Pope from a monk and priest's mouth is insanity. Is that all you think about, shooting bullets through our bishops? Why are your thoughts so violent?
A Serbian/Orthodox monk suggests that Serbs will shoot the Pope if he comes to Serbia. Interesting, very interesting! Thank God I am not Serbian and I do not have to be in your church! I feel sorry for those baptised in your church, though.

Says the guy who once wrote, "Na pohybel innym nacjom".

Pot, meet kettle.*

*(This is idiomatic English for "You, sir, are a hypocrite").
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 11:19:02 AM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2011, 11:27:36 AM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


My opinion?  Be thankful that the Patriarch has found an excuse to withdraw his invitation for the Pope to come to Serbia.   There must be any number of people there who would like to fire a bullet into him.  For example, the grandchildren of those killed by the Ustasha under the approving eyes of Franciscans.  And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
As if the Bulgarian KGB, in submission to the Russian KGB, ordering a Turk to shoot the Pope is not enough. I think that it is true, that the Serbian priests escalated the conflict in the early 1990's.
 I think everyone has heard "popovi, pa topovi".

The mere suggestion of the thought of firing a bullet to the Pope from a monk and priest's mouth is insanity. Is that all you think about, shooting bullets through our bishops? Why are your thoughts so violent?
A Serbian/Orthodox monk suggests that Serbs will shoot the Pope if he comes to Serbia. Interesting, very interesting! Thank God I am not Serbian and I do not have to be in your church! I feel sorry for those baptised in your church, though.

To be fair to the Serbs, you can not paint an entire nation by the words and illegal acts of a few.

A little 'realpolitik' here. We all need to calm down a bit on this one.

Serbia is seeking admission into the EU. As part of that process, its new seemingly pro-Western, progressive government finally was able to arrest and turn the accused war criminal Ratko Mladic over to the Hague. It is no secret that their are still many  supporters of the disgraced Milosovic regime and Mladic remaining within Serbia and that inside of the Orthodox Church there is no small measure of support remaining for the former regime and its policies as well.

It would hardly assist the Serbian nation's efforts to join the EU if the upcoming ceremonies at Nis were to be disrupted by a random act of terror. Anyone remember August 1914?

So, if you were the new Patriarch and the Pope and you were both modern men, fully aware of history, why wouldn't you look for a reason to uninvite the Pope?

The one chosen appears to be a stroke of genius.

The Patriarch can appease the virulent anti-Western factions in his community; the Serbian government is relieved of the awesome responsibility of protecting the Pope's safety and averting a disastrous international incident; the Pope can shrug his shoulders and appease the virulent anti-Serb factions in Croatia by simply implying, 'That's those Serbs for you.....' and all parties gain 'street cred' for the factions they are trying to satisfy. Meanwhile, the Nuncio and the Patriarch's ambassadors have a glass of chianti or a toast of slivovica and the world goes on.

I think that is the real back story here.

I just love a hearty dose of Byzantine machinations coupled with a dash of Machiavelli with my morning coffee and newspaper.  Wink  That's the way of the grown up world.

Back to the garden and the garage clean up.....
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 11:29:38 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2011, 05:34:57 PM »

Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago, but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.  The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia




Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.



Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.

Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 05:37:24 PM by Robb » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2011, 05:37:24 PM »

^^And the bad old western powers stepped in and basically stopped them from killing each other off and both countries are trying to move on into the 21st century and integrate into the EU. Those of us who are neither Serb nor Croat probably don't have the right to an opinion, at least on the internet.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 05:38:28 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2011, 06:52:05 PM »

Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago,
and 20 or so years ago.
but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.
the Serbs in Krajina were only asserting the right claim by the Croats to seccede from Yugoslavia, as their comrade Tito set it up.

The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.
The Croats threatened to pick up where their Ustashe fathers left off.  The Serbs had no choice.

Btw, in Bosnia, the Croats made no pretence, with maps in their schools showing BH in the Greater Croatia and Croatian currency being the legal tender in areas of Croat control.
Quote
As far as Bosnia and Herzegovina was concerned, Tuđman was more ambivalent: Tuđman did not take a separate Bosnia seriously as shown by his comments to a television crew "Bosnia was a creation of the Ottoman invasion [...] Until then it was part of Croatia, or it was a kingdom of Bosnia, but a Catholic kingdom, linked to Croatia."[40] He thought that Bosniaks are, essentially, Croats of Muslim faith and will, freed from Communist censorship, declare themselves ethnically as Croats, therefore making Bosnia a predominantly Croatian country (with 44% Bosniaks, 17% Croats and 33% Serbs). But, these illusions were soon dispelled.[41]
......

In 2004, six Bosnian Croats Jadranko Prlić, Bruno Stojić, Slobodan Praljak, Milivoj Petković, Valentin Corić, and Berislav Pušić were accused by the ICTY for being part of a joint criminal enterprise which included mass war crimes against Bosniak population during creation of ethnically pure Croatian quasi-state Herzeg-Bosnia on the territories of internationally recognized state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. According to the indictment numerous persons participated in this joint criminal enterprise. Each participant, by his or her acts, omissions, practices or conduct, both individually and in concert with or through other persons, substantially contributed to carrying out the enterprise and accomplishing its purpose. Franjo Tuđman, among others, participated in the joint criminal enterprise.[59] As the indictment mentions not just former President of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tuđman, but also other key figures from the Republic of Croatia (Gojko Šušak, former Minister of Defence and Janko Bobetko senior General), the government of the Republic of Croatia in 2006, filed the motion to be allowed to participate in the trial as the amicus curiae in order to "assist in the interpretation of historical and political facts and the determination of truth". The ICTY dismissed Croatia’s motion to appear as amicus curiae in the case, concluding that "it would not be in the interests of justice to allow a state – whose former political and military officials are named in the indictment as the participants in the joint criminal enterprise – to participate in the proceedings as the amicus curiae."[60]

It is true that Mr. Tuđman was not charged because he is dead, but alive, he would be here on the accused bench. General Bobetko, that he was alive, he would be accused of the bench. It should be borne in mind when talking about a joint criminal enterprise.[61]
—Judge Jean-Claude Antonetti
Had Tuđman lived longer, he would have been possibly brought up on war crimes charges by the UN Yugoslav war crimes tribunal in The Hague. Graham Blewitt, a senior Tribunal prosecutor, told the AFP wire service that "There would have been sufficient evidence to indict president Tuđman had he still been alive."[62] The Tribunal's indictment of Croatian general Ante Gotovina lists Tuđman as a key participant in a "joint criminal enterprise" aimed at the "permanent removal of the Serb population from the "Krajina" region by killing, force, fear or threat of force, persecution, forced displacement, transfer and deportation, appropriation and destruction of property other minority belongings & means."[63] In 1995, Carl Bildt had suggested that Franjo Tuđman was as guilty of war crimes as the "Krajina" Serb leader Milan Martić. Bildt was declared a persona non grata by Croatia following these statements.[64][65] because he "lost the credibility necessary for the role of a peace mediator".[64][65]

In the case of Gotovina et al., the Trial Chamber found Franjo Tudjman to had been the leader of a joint criminal enterprise the purpose of which was to permanently remove the Serb civilian population from the region of Croatia known as Krajina. The Chamber found that Tudjman was a key member and that he intended to repopulate the Krajina with Croats.[66]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franjo_Tu%C4%91man#Formation_of_the_national_program




Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.
Seems pretty close to the actual ethnic makeup before Yugoslavia began to breakup




Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.
Quote
The most recent expression of a Greater Croatia arose in the aftermath of the breakup of Yugoslavia. When the multiethnic Yugoslavian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence in 1992, Bosnian Serb political representatives, who had boycotted the referendum, established their own government of Republika Srpska, whereupon their forces attacked the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The subsequent war was principally a territorial conflict, initially between the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Bosnian Croat forces on the one side, and Bosnian Serb forces on the other. However, the Croats also aimed at securing parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina as Croatian.[5] With the 1991 Karađorđevo agreement between Croatian president Franjo Tuđman and Serbian president Slobodan Milošević, and with the Graz agreement of 1992, the Serb and Croat political leaderships agreed on a partition of Bosnia, resulting in the Croat forces turning on the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, leading to the Croat-Bosniak war.[6]

The policies of Croatia and Franjo Tuđman towards Bosnia and Herzegovina were never totally transparent and always included Tuđman's aim of expanding Croatia's borders.[7][5] After Tuđman's death, his successor, Stjepan Mesić, revealed thousands of documents and audio tapes recorded by Tuđman about his plans in regards to Bosnia and Herzegovina.[8][9] The tapes reveal that both Milosević and Tuđman ignored pledges to respect Bosnia's sovereignty, even after signing the Dayton accord.[8][9] In one conversation Tuđman told an official: Let's make a deal with the Serbs. Neither history nor emotion in the Balkans will permit multinationalism. We have to give up on the illusion of the last eight years... Dayton isn't working. Nobody- except diplomats and petty officials - believes in a sovereign Bosnia and the Dayton accords.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Croatia#Bosnian_War

Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.
Quote
The Log Revolution (Croatian: Balvan revolucija) was a protest which started on August 17, 1990 in areas of the Republic of Croatia which were populated significantly by ethnic Serbs.[1]

The first democratic elections of Croatia, still within Yugoslavia, resulted in a victory for the pro-independence party of Franjo Tuđman. Tuđman's party, the Croatian Democratic Union, had already promulgated in their manifesto their intentions of recognising the non-Croatian population as minorities rather than constituent nations; and consequently, with Yugoslavia largely dysfunctional, the social status of Croatia's Serbs had been inevitably demoted overnight. In an act of protest, the Croatian Serbs in the areas where they formed a majority started to refuse authority to the new Croatian government and held several meetings and public rallies since early 1990 protesting their cause.[1]

Led by Milan Babić and Milan Martić, the local Serbs proclaimed SAO Kninska Krajina in August 1990 and began blockading roads connecting Dalmatia to the rest of Croatia. The blockade was mostly made from logs cut down from nearby woods, which is why the event was dubbed the "Log Revolution". The organizers were armed with illegal weapons supplied by Martić.[1] Since it was done during the Summer and severed land ties to Dalmatia, high economic damage was done to Croatian tourism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_revolution

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« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2011, 06:55:55 PM »

The Serbs had no choice? Slobodan Milosevic had no choice?  Huh

That's a new low, even for you.
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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2011, 07:23:38 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
The Serbs had no choice?
No.  When log protest didn't disuade the Ustashe, it fell to armed defense.

Slobodan Milosevic had no choice?  Huh

I didn't say a thing about Milosevic.

That's a new low, even for you.
The Poglavnik [Fuehrer] wants you:


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Quote
A recruiting poster for the Croatian Ustasha SS (as in Nazi SS) Black Legion. The poster was aimed in part at Bosnian Muslims; hence, one soldier is shown wearing a fez, the hat of fanatical Islam, and the town in the background includes a minaret (middle-right), part of a mosque.
The top line reads: "Croats of Herzeg-Bosnia!" Underneath is the crooked double S of the Nazi SS, plus the Ustasha checkerboard flag, brought back when Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia, for the second time, in 1991.

Two soldiers, presumably a Catholic and a Muslim, trample the Communist flag. The text reads: "The Great leaders Adolf Hitler and poglavnik [fuehrer] Dr. Ante Pavelic are calling you to defend your homes. Join the volunteer units of Croatian SS."

Quote
In 1995, here is what Tudjman said about the Serbs, as recorded and translated by the BBC Monitoring service:

"And [applause - BBC] there can be no return to the past, to the times when they the Serbs were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, cancer which was destroying the Croatian national being and which did not allow the Croatian people to be the master in its own house and did not allow Croatia to lead an independent and sovereign life under this wide, blue sky and within the world community of sovereign nations."

According to Tudjman, the Serbs were "cancer" -  exactly the sort of disease metaphor Nazi-types use when describing 'racial' enemies. Straight-forward Ustasha stuff, no pretense of standing up to supposed Serbian aggression. Rather, the presence of Serbs is in itself an aggression against some undefined (because indefinable) Croatian "national being."
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/u-legion.jpg&imgrefurl=http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/times1.htm&usg=__nuUXaZ9v1sl97WHm123NlDwYFxg=&h=604&w=408&sz=26&hl=en&start=113&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=lCFCm8-nYAh4FM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=91&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgreater%2Bcroatia%2Bmap%2Bza%2Bdom%2Bspremni%26start%3D100%26tbnid%3D0K1S8RwLqfY2oM:%26tbnh%3D0%26tbnw%3D0%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D654%26ndsp%3D20%26tbm%3Disch&ei=O9z3TbXqAq3diAKsmOX-DA
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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2011, 08:23:16 PM »

Let's not forget that the Croats were not the only ones tempted by the Axis to view the Fuhrer as the bulwark against Communism. There were plenty of Americans with similar sympathies in the German American Bund, Charles Lindbergh, Joe Kennedy and others who believed that an alliance among Britain, Germany and the US could stop Stalin and destroy communism. We can rehash 20th century history if we like, but the sad reality is that the innocent blood of millions of souls was shed across the continent of Europe. The major powers used one political, economic or religious justification or another to excuse, or more likely turn a blind eye towards, the overwhelming brutality. Americans tend to forget that from the beginning of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 through the destruction of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the Balkan war of the mid 1990's, many historians would argue that the major powers of the continent, or their surrogates, essentially were continually at war with limited periods of either armistice or 'cold' war interrupting the bloodshed.
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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2011, 12:42:20 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 

Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
No one denies that he was a Franciscan brother. But you said he was a priest, and I don;t see the evidence proving that he was ever ordained as a Catholic priest.
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2011, 12:58:04 AM »

There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449


"How many persons were murdered in Jasenovac and the other concentration camps?

"In Bespuca povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp.

In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.''

"Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure: ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.''

"The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.''

On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''"

Source :: http://ljiljana-zivojinovic.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
According to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum,  "Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime."
On the other hand, this museum estimates that Croat authorities murdered about 330,000 Serbs in all. 
Obviously, this was a brutal and horrific situation that should never have happened.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2011, 01:47:55 AM »

And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf

The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 

Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
No one denies that he was a Franciscan brother. But you said he was a priest, and I don;t see the evidence proving that he was ever ordained as a Catholic priest.

It is not so much that I am saying he's a priest so much that a lot of available data says that about him.  As to his ordination, this site may be considered 'polemic' by some, but for biographical purposes:

http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/filipovic/index.html


Quote


Franciscan priest and enthusiastic commandant at Jasenovac. Known to inmates as Fra Sotona (Brother Devil) for his monstrous cruelty against inmates. Ordained in 1939 and served mass at Petricevac (near Banja Luka) until the proclamation of the Independent State of Croatia in 1941. From January 1942 he was a military chaplain, and was accused of taking part in terrible atrocities against the Serbian population. A German court singled him out for prosecution as part of a general attempt to halt the bloodletting in the NDH. Filipovic did not deny that the atrocities had happened, but claimed he took no part, and failed to act against the perpetrators owing to military solidarity. Removed from his post, he was appointed commandant of Jasenovac through the offices of Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic. Captured by Communists after the war, summarily tried and executed
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2011, 02:09:49 AM »

Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago, but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.  The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia




Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.



Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.

Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.

Everything is not black and white indeed.  While initially the Serbs were reluctant to let Croatia leave the Federation, this turned to the Serbs not wanting so much to 'deny' the right of Croatian indpendence, just the right of the Croats to take the majority of the Serb population with them, who opposed Croatian independence.  While there was media and political manipulation on the part of the Milošević regime (Arkan and Vojislav Šešelj had visited Serb areas before the conflict), the Croats and the Tuđman government didn't help their cause by demoting the status of the Serbs from a constituent people to a minority, sackings of Serbs from their jobs without reason, rehashing Ustaše symbols, some of which, like the šahovnica, predated the Ustaše.  The point is that the Croats didn't listen to or take Serb concerns seriously, nor did Tuđman seriously consider any sort of compromise with an increasingly alarmed Serbian community.  

I agree, that part of the reason the JNA couldn't advance so far as it intended was due to Croatian resistance, but it was facing desertions, logistic nightmares, and in some places, like Vukovar, there wasn't a clear chain of command until the appointment of General Života Panić in I believe September-October 1991.  Also, the JNA was neither a wholly Serb army, nor were all its higher echelons convinced nationalists, even during the initial stages of the conflicts in Croatia and in Bosnia.  Take the examples of Generals Milutin Kukanjac in Bosnia, Velko Kadijević (General and Defence Minister from 1988-1992),  and Milan Aksentijević, in Slovenia. 
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2011, 05:00:34 AM »

You are right Trifon.

There should have been a radical re-drawing of borders at the time to prevent war. If it can be done in Sudan it can be done and should have been done in the Balkans.

Krajina and the Serb majority cantons of Bosnia should have been made part of Serbia.

Croat Herzegovina a part of Croatia proper.

The central part of Bosnia left as a Bosniak state.

Fewer minorities = fewer problems for everyone.

Instead we got a Croatia totally cleansed of Serbs, a Bosnia split into two entities that despise each other, the Croats get a lesser say in Bosnia because they are stuck with Muslims and a totally fake "independent" Kosovo. Not too mention an independent Montenegro by the barest of margins.

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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2011, 07:10:48 PM »

 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  

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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 10:34:40 AM »

 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  



Thanks for this.  My university libraries don't have this work, but the British Library does.  I'll look into it.
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2011, 02:12:07 PM »

Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church. 

Quote
The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2011, 03:29:43 PM »

He was beatified for martyrdom. He was a martyr. He died for the faith. His death saved him.
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2011, 03:48:00 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church.  

Quote
The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
the same source has this:
Quote
In Britain, on 23 October 1946, Mr Richard Stokes MP declared in the House of Commons that,

[T]he archbishop was our constant ally in 1941, during the worst of the crisis, and thereafter, at a time when the Orthodox Church, which is now comme il faut with the Tito Government, was shaking hands with Mussolini....[73]

What an incredibly odd (and libelous) thing to say

And oh, btw, Tito was part of the Allies, and the Ustashe part of the Axis. Like Mussolimi.
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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2011, 11:34:38 PM »

 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  



Thanks for this.  My university libraries don't have this work, but the British Library does.  I'll look into it.
Amazon has a used copy for sale for $4. It gives a different version of many events. 
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« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2011, 03:10:24 PM »

The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »

Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church. 

Quote
The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
Stepinac approved of the conversion campaign against the Serbs and didn't revoke it even when it became obvious that Serbs were being threatened with death if they refused conversion (many were killed afterwards anyway).
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« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2011, 03:35:11 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2011, 11:25:53 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.

The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.
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« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2011, 04:03:07 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.

The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.

If Putin had been in power at the time there would have been no NATO attack against the Serbs and Eastern Slavonia at the very least would have been a part of Serbia.
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« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2011, 09:36:00 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.

The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.

If Putin had been in power at the time there would have been no NATO attack against the Serbs and Eastern Slavonia at the very least would have been a part of Serbia.

One could just as easily speculate that if Putin were in power that Russia would not have permitted the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia and would have interfered with the ascension of all of the nationalist politicians in the various republics. Alternative history is pointless as we will never know.
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